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Hollow Knight General Discussion thread - Hallownest awakens
- Thread starter Arceus0x
- Start date
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Let's goooo
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- #43
I've decided that we ballin'
vsbattles.com
Hollow Knight Upgrades
HIGHER BEINGS THESE WORDS ARE FOR YOU ALONE YO MOM A TREE LMAOOOOOOO Now that this CRT has passed, I made several calculations that should upgrade the verse to a notable extent. This should also give Hollow Knight characters Small Size type 1 or 0 or sometimes none at all depending on the...
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The main things I can think of to be calced would be White Defender smashing the ground hard enough to send up dung spikes and KE of Soul Master's Desolate Dive for AP, Great Hopper jumping into the air, the FK Maggot moving its shell, and Hornet throwing her needle for LS, and maybe Hornet and The Knight surviving and escaping the collapsing Wyrm for Durability and/or LS.
Do you think any of those would be worthwhile to calc?
Also, we'll probably want a definitive scaling chain eventually.
Do you think any of those would be worthwhile to calc?
Also, we'll probably want a definitive scaling chain eventually.
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I don't see anything outside of below human LS and 9-C+ at most here
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I don’t think there's any way to get something above below average human LS for HK characters. The Knight literally never lifts anything besides his small nail
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If we want stuff to talk about, I can propose some stuff I proposed on my Essence Physiology thread:
Inorganic Physiology, Light Manipulation, and Incorporeality (Type 1. Is made of, and can manipulate, Essence, which is fragmented light.), Flight and Teleportation (Can float and teleport.), Extrasensory Perception and Non-Physical Interaction (Can perceive and interact with Essence.), Invisibility and Intangibility (Cannot be seen or interacted with without the Dream Nail.), Immortality (Types 1 and 7. Dreams are endless, and Spirits remain in the state they take without aging. Xero advises The Knight to "rest here, until time itself sleeps". Spirits are the lingering memories of bugs.), Abstract Existence and limited Memory Manipulation (Type 1. Essence makes up memories, thoughts, regrets, and dreams, including the Dream Realm as a whole. The Spirits in the Spirits' Glade being destroyed by The Knight causes Revek to lose his memories of them.), Body Control (Can reform themselves from splitting into Essence particles.), and Limited Resistance To Deconstruction and Absorption (Can only be destroyed and absorbed by the Dream Nail after being heavily weakened, whereas most Spirits can destroyed and absorbed by the Dream Nail at any point.)
-Users: Xero, Markoth, Marmu, No Eyes, Gorb, Galien, Elder Hu, Revek
Also, if we give bosses stuff they do in Godhome:
Summoning (Can summon another bug like itself.)
-Users: Vengefly King, Gruz Mother, Soul Warrior, and possibly Brooding Mawlek
--Comes from Vengefly King summoning another VK in Godhome.
Extrasensory Perception (Is aware that they are in a dream.)
-Users: Hornet, Grimm
Transformation (Into Winged Nosk.), Flight and Summoning (As Winged Nosk; of Infected Balloons.)
-Users: Nosk
Summoning (Of Primal Aspids, Sharp Baldurs, and Armored Squits.)
-Users: The Collector
Summoning (Of Oomas.), Explosion Manipulation and Homing Attack (Via Oomas.)
-Users: Uumuu
I've got a load of other abilities to talk about, but this is a lot as is.
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ShakeResounding
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Okay so I'm a staunch Sonic supporter, and Dreams are currently accepted as Type 1 Concepts (I was the creator of the blog that ot got accepted from) via super verse-specific stuff about how dreams are composed within the cosmology.
And on my first play through of Hollow Knight a few months back, Essence really struck me as something of a Type 3 Concept. "Lesser Fundamental Concepts: Concepts that don't meet the same standards as Type 1 or Type 2, such as personal concepts that continue to govern the object in question, merely on a more specific scale, or concepts whose nature is not elaborated upon."
My prime example is by the defender of the Spirit's Glade (that's the name iirc). When you successfully manage to Dream Nail all the spirits he's trying to protect, it ultimately erases his memory of them and he's left confused as to what he was doing once you speak to him again. This is a direct alteration within somebody's mind regarding beings of Essence, AKA direct manipulation of a concept (Essence), which seems to qualify for Conceptual Manipulation due to what Essence is.
And on my first play through of Hollow Knight a few months back, Essence really struck me as something of a Type 3 Concept. "Lesser Fundamental Concepts: Concepts that don't meet the same standards as Type 1 or Type 2, such as personal concepts that continue to govern the object in question, merely on a more specific scale, or concepts whose nature is not elaborated upon."
My prime example is by the defender of the Spirit's Glade (that's the name iirc). When you successfully manage to Dream Nail all the spirits he's trying to protect, it ultimately erases his memory of them and he's left confused as to what he was doing once you speak to him again. This is a direct alteration within somebody's mind regarding beings of Essence, AKA direct manipulation of a concept (Essence), which seems to qualify for Conceptual Manipulation due to what Essence is.
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I could see it being Type 3, especially because different Essence beings (Spirits, Dreamers, dreams, etc.) function very differently.
ShakeResounding
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Precisely! Honestly, I believe a blog can be made about it that nets Type 3 Conceptual Destruction (for The Knight via the Dream Nail and for anybody else that can similarly destroy Spirits), Alteration (Depending on if there's any elaboration of Nightmare Essence being a variant of ordinary Essence or not, which Nightmare Grimm and his Troupe use iirc), and Creation (For example, the dreams created after the defeat of Broken Vessel, White Defender, etc. and even dreams born like Bretta's Gray Prince Zote).
I think there's a genuine case for it.
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Agree with all of this. The Seer says in the Hunter'a Journal that The Radiance split the Dream Realm apart in relation to The Nightmare's Heart and Grimm calls the Nightmare flames "that burning essence", so I think that Nightmare essence is a variation of Essence. The exact quote is "The expanse of dream in past was split. One realm now must stay apart. Darkest reaches, beating red, terror of sleep. The Nightmare's Heart."
No one else destroys Spirits, but The Radiance should scale since she created the Dream Nail for the Moth Tribe.
I'd make the blog, but a friend is fixing my computer for the next week or so. When I get back to my computer, I'll start putting out more ideas and blogs.
Incorporeality just means beings who have no true physical form, and who only truly exist non-physically, such as as a soul, energy, or a concept. Funnily enough, Spirits are actually all three of those.
ShakeResounding
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Oh wow, that's actually perfect. Then Nightmare Essence can also be mentioned, yeah.
Rad
I don't wanna make any promises since I'm usually knee-deep in Sonic-related stuff, but if you have the necessary scans then I believe you could DM me and I could make the blog for all of us? Of course, I'd submit it here for necessary scrutinization before doing anything about a CRT for it.
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Sure, I'll see if I can do that. I'm at college atm, but I'll DM you when I get back in half an hour or so.
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How would that work in practice tho? The Knight never actually like, kills people with the dream nail in combat. Even fodder bugs are completely unharmed by the dream nail.
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They'd instantly destroy beings made of light and/or memories, dreams, etc. Then again, an ability doesn't have to be combat applicable for a character to have it.
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It doesn't instantly destroy dream warriors either.
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It instantly destroys them after they've been weakened in battle, and it instantly destroys Spirits, so my best bet would be that they have Limited Resistance To Deconstruction.
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It really depends on what you can prove ig. At best warrior dreams would have resistance to it but the ability would still be pretty useless since Noone is made out of dream essence outside HK
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Verse equalization wouldn't make normal beings into dream essence.
And idk about you but I don't exactly remember many characters made out dreams outside HK
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No, but it would apply the Dream Nail's destruction to those beings. It's like how other time manipulators are considered capable of overpowering Undertale's RESETting characters despite not possessing DETERMINATION.
Even if it's a niche power, it's still a power. The profiles are just as much for indexing information about the characters as they are for Vs matches.
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What destruction tho? Like okay they can destroy dream beings but how would that help against non dream entities?
Ig. But if it's not usually combat applicable it would have to be noted on the page so it's not wanked in combat
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It probably wouldn't. But it might be useful against characters that can survive after death as spirits. Also, having the Dream Nail gives The Knight Non-Physical Interaction since they can attack Dream Warriors with their nail and Spells.
Sure. I didn't ever claim it would be ridiculously useful or anything. Honestly, the Essence stuff is probably the most useful for the Dream Warriors and The Radiance anyways.
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Dream gates are useful to deal with BFRs for The Knight.
ShakeResounding
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There's one thing I've learned from my years here: Never ever ever underestimate a niche ability.
Especially with the verse sitting in Tier 9 (potentially Tier 8 via specific methods), a lot of gimmick characters are in the tier and Type 3 Conceptual Manipulation might be more useful than one would first think.
For example, any character similar to the Spirits on the wiki that are likewise composed of memories/dreams and the likes, LightSoul would be correct that verse equalization means the Dream Nail will be able to destroy them at a conceptual level.
Granted, yeah, this is moreso indexing the ability than trying to make the verse a powerhouse or something. Speaking of...
Here's the blog so far for those interested. It's a W.I.P. so don't be too scathing, but I welcome any input. I'll probably be completing this over the next few days if my schedule allows that
Especially with the verse sitting in Tier 9 (potentially Tier 8 via specific methods), a lot of gimmick characters are in the tier and Type 3 Conceptual Manipulation might be more useful than one would first think.
For example, any character similar to the Spirits on the wiki that are likewise composed of memories/dreams and the likes, LightSoul would be correct that verse equalization means the Dream Nail will be able to destroy them at a conceptual level.
Granted, yeah, this is moreso indexing the ability than trying to make the verse a powerhouse or something. Speaking of...
Here's the blog so far for those interested. It's a W.I.P. so don't be too scathing, but I welcome any input. I'll probably be completing this over the next few days if my schedule allows that
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Blog looks really good. The Abstract Existence stuff might also be worth adding because the characters get it from being comprised of an abstract material comprising dreams, hopes, memories, and thoughts (Essence, of course). I've got a couple of characters that I'm pretty sure would have Conceptual Manipulation, which are:
Creation: The Nightmare's Heart (Created Grimm and presumably the Grimmkin.), Grimm (As he creates his dream for Nightmare King Grimm.), Godseekers (Collectively created Godhome.), possibly all of the Godhome bosses (Created their arenas.), Seer (Created the Dream Wielder Charm from her memories.), Zote (Seemingly created the Eternal Ordeal.), Bretta (Created Grey Prince Zote.)
Alteration: The Pale King (Brought the White Palace into the Dream Realm, transforming it into a conceptual area.), Unn (Created the flora and Mosskin of Greenpath from her thoughts.)
Destruction: The Radiance (As she created the Dream Nail.), The Void (As it can destroy The Radiance and the entirety of Godhome.)
Also, thanks for the shoutout
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I'm actually trying to avoid the exact opposite. Niche abilities also tend to get taken out of context to where they seem far more OP than they are. For example "layered soul crush". SC was literally a non factor as long as characters were at least somewhat relative in power but literally every Bleach thread was just people saying how every random character actually had 9 layers of passive soul hax.
If we don't make sure to include context people might start saying how TK can just erase the concept of your mind with a single attack or something like that
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That's a good point. We should probably specify that The Knight can only destroy Spirits without bodies, can't do so inside of dreams, that immensely powerful beings such as Revek, the Dream Warriors, Dream Bosses, and The Radiance and resist this, and that beings with Low-Godly Regen can resurrect from being destroyed (although that last one probably goes without saying). Also, I think this has already been specified, but in case it hasn't, the Memory Manip is an indirect consequence of the destruction of the Spirits' Essence, which contains their memories. So if there was a character whose spirit/dreams/whatever was separate from their memories (like characters who have flashbacks despite having their memory wiped), it wouldn't work as well.If we don't make sure to include context people might start saying how TK can just erase the concept of your mind with a single attack or something like that
ShakeResounding
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True, very true. Im trying to convey in the blog that this is pretty specific stuff already (for example: specifying that The Knight only has Conceptual Destruction via the Dream Nail) but you've given me more motivation to ensure this isn't taken out of context to a higher degree as I continue my blog.If we don't make sure to include context people might start saying how TK can just erase the concept of your mind with a single attack or something like that
I agree with all of this. I'll probably make a highlighted note in the blog regarding this stuff, along with any other notes we may need to iron out the details.
Thanks for the input and the help, guys. Really.
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Thank you! I've been grieving over my Essence Physiology thread for a full-ass year because I had no idea how this site worked at the time, so it's nice to get this stuff done
ShakeResounding
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Pleasure's mine! Sometimes getting the scans for this stuff is a pain but it's been a real breeze with your help. I'll be continuing work on the blog later today when I got time, I'm sure there's a tad more we're still missing.
ShakeResounding
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Wow, that design seems so cursed
Say what now lmao. Of all the things, I sure didn't expect skill feats
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they seriously train from childhood and keep training into adulthood and mantis lords have been their leaders for a ton of time. The Knight beat two at the same time (3 in godhome) so young mantises (above average) < adult mantises < mantis lord < 2 mantis lords at a time > 3
ShakeResounding
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Oh wooow, the childhood training trope can be pretty damn good given the circumstances.
Especially considering the Mantis Lords outlived the old civilization of Hallownest iirc. Not sure if there's ever enough context to give a solid timeframe beyond "Remained intact even as other civilizations went to ruin". Either way, that's pretty good!
Especially considering the Mantis Lords outlived the old civilization of Hallownest iirc. Not sure if there's ever enough context to give a solid timeframe beyond "Remained intact even as other civilizations went to ruin". Either way, that's pretty good!
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