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Hollow Knight General Discussion thread - Hallownest awakens

Oh wooow, the childhood training trope can be pretty damn good given the circumstances.

Especially considering the Mantis Lords outlived the old civilization of Hallownest iirc. Not sure if there's ever enough context to give a solid timeframe beyond "Remained intact even as other civilizations went to ruin". Either way, that's pretty good!
The Knight also surpassed each Nailsmith in skill with a single training session each, even mastering the Great Slash just by watching Sheo paint. The Knight also surpassed Sly without even needing to be trained by him. Alongside a ridiculous amount of skill, I'm pretty sure The Knight has some form of Accelerated Development.
 
I think I can confirm that HK lore definitely takes many many years
-"Entry to the kingdom was forbidden long ago, supposedly after some great calamity. Many gates were closed, but our old well remains as a way to creep back in.
Over the years, all kinds used the well to wriggle into the ruins, wanderers, thieves, adventurers.
Funny how few ever come back up. Perhaps they find what they're looking for?.."
-"Greetings, little one! It's been an age since I last heard the ringing of a station bell. It echoed down the stagways and called me to you.
I've grown stiff and tired over these many years and I've forgotten much, but the sound of the bell will always call me back."
-"My brother, Sheo... how fare you in that green kingdom of thorns you call home? I think of you every time I raise my nail...
Do you ever close your eyes and remember the years we spent together with Oro and our master? I like to think you do..."
-"Prepare well, but don't dally. Were the Vessel to break prematurely, that plague would unleash with rage and power built of ages chained."
-"Ah, what a surprise! It's not often I receive visitors. It's been so long. Ages even. I just hope my manners haven't left me."

so Elderbug alone sees seveal years and yet what happened in Hallownest is unknown history to him
Many years have passed since the last person used a stag
The vessel has been chained for ages ect.

Basically we know that bugs live lives that are likely close to human lives as they live for many years at a time.
Those who are already old (Elderbug) find the sealing of Hallownest to be almost a mystery as it was supposedly before his time.
Mantis Lords have lived for ages even way way before the infection.
This means that the mantis lords have several life-times of combat experience.
 
Yeah, honestly that's like 200+ years minimum.

I want to say even the game implies as such, because large timeframes are often treated as snippits. And things such as HK's memorial and a Dream Warrior's dialogue (something about time itself going still or something) I feel imply millennia as well.
 
Oh, on a side note, I've added talks of Abstract Existence to my blog at Light's suggestion of having it properly documented some place.

Additionally, I've added an "Important Notes" section to my blog that will be aimed at stomping out misconceptions (thank you to David for inspiration and making me fear I would accidentally wank the verse).

As always, feel free to make suggestions/critiques. I'll be continuing edits later on as I scour the game further.
 
Upgraded HK size, Upgraded HK AP feats, made proper speed calcs. All of this will be applied tomorrow as it is accepted.
We're also discussing physiology of dream beings and dream weilders.
I am thinking of adding some powers to The Knight.
Nice, nice. Which feats have been calced? I remember discussing if breaking the door to Hallownest or shattering crystals could get higher than the False Knight feat, so I'm curious if those were brought up.
 
Nice, nice. Which feats have been calced? I remember discussing if breaking the door to Hallownest or shattering crystals could get higher than the False Knight feat, so I'm curious if those were brought up.
So I re-calced the False Knight feat. Using frame-by-frame I saw that it wasn't pulverized but it shattered at the seams and then fell down along with FK and got crushed into fragmented pieces. The re-calc got 4.7 megajoules. Door to Hallownest...I could try it but it takes many hits to pry open so idk. Shattering crystals is something I'll make in the future but idk, my estimates put that at a few megajoules at most rn.
I think the best bet is unironically Crystal dash. It is a dash and every object you come into contact with shatters from it. If find a big room with many good background objects I could get high end results in theory.
 
So I re-calced the False Knight feat. Using frame-by-frame I saw that it wasn't pulverized but it shattered at the seams and then fell down along with FK and got crushed into fragmented pieces. The re-calc got 4.7 megajoules. Door to Hallownest...I could try it but it takes many hits to pry open so idk. Shattering crystals is something I'll make in the future but idk, my estimates put that at a few megajoules at most rn.
I think the best bet is unironically Crystal dash. It is a dash and every object you come into contact with shatters from it. If find a big room with many good background objects I could get high end results in theory.
The door to Hallownest takes 13 hits to destroy iirc (I can check later), although I've seen calcs that just divide the energy needed to fragment something by however many hits it took to do so. Didn't really consider Crystal Dash as an option, although I'm not sure if it'd work since the objects aren't being shattered all at once? Idk much about calcs so I'm of little use here.
 
The door to Hallownest takes 13 hits to destroy iirc (I can check later), although I've seen calcs that just divide the energy needed to fragment something by however many hits it took to do so. Didn't really consider Crystal Dash as an option, although I'm not sure if it'd work since the objects aren't being shattered all at once? Idk much about calcs so I'm of little use here.
Think of it like this. If you shoot a bullet through 3 walls did the bullet hit the wall with three separate energies or with one continuous energy output?
 
Anyways I've read through the Wanderers journal guide book. Nothing too special but still interesting. Besides the aforementioned skill feats and some extra lore, I think the plants with explosive projectiles could be potentially counted as actual explosions since apparently the projectiles are filled with pressurized gas. Additionally most of the orange goo projectiles we see are actually acid+venom so probably a resistance for the Knight since he can survive it all without getting poisoned or melted (Mawlurk hunts by using acid to dissolve opponents)
 
Anyways I've read through the Wanderers journal guide book. Nothing too special but still interesting. Besides the aforementioned skill feats and some extra lore, I think the plants with explosive projectiles could be potentially counted as actual explosions since apparently the projectiles are filled with pressurized gas. Additionally most of the orange goo projectiles we see are actually acid+venom so probably a resistance for the Knight since he can survive it all without getting poisoned or melted (Mawlurk hunts by using acid to dissolve opponents)
It also states that the Mantis Lords have ruled their tribe for "countless generations", and that the Longnail Charm "extends the wearer's aura".
 
So, we've finally reached the point where we need to add abilities to the profiles, and this is what I think I'll be really good at, so let's just start with The Knight:

Base: Life Manipulation (With Soul Manipulation and Absorption.), Magic and Energy Projection (Via Spells.), Immortality (Types 2 and 7. Can survive its mask cracking and shattering. Was killed and hollowed out by the Void. Will linger on after death as a Shade.), Regeneration (High-Low. Can quickly reform their mask if it cracks, which happens when The Knight is hit.), Status Effect Inducement (Can stagger enemies by striking them with their nail and/or Spells.), Attack Reflection (Can strike physical projectiles to reflect them.), Acrobatics (Can dash while grounded and airborne, repeatedly jump between walls, and bounce off of enemies and hazardous terrain by striking them with their nail.), Non-Standard Breathing/Self-Sustenance (Type 1. Can harmlessly remain in the fog of the Infected Crossroads, which is burning and noxious.), Extrasensory Perception (Can see Spirits with the Dream Nail.), Accelerated Development (Training; abilities. Mastered the Nail Arts within single training sessions, even mastering the Great Slash solely by watching Sheo paint. FOCUS allows Higher Beings to accomplish feats that common bugs could only dream of.), Conceptual Manipulation (Type 3. The Dream Nail allows The Knight to destroy Spirits without physical bodies, provided that those Spirits don't have incredible willpower. Spirits are comprised of Essence, fragmented light that comprises dreams, memories, regrets, and hopes. The Knight destroying every Spirit within the Glade Of Dreams completely erases them, as Revek is no longer able to remember them or his own purpose.)

Resistances: Willpower Manipulation and Sleep Manipulation (Heavily resists The Radiance's influence, which causes bugs to fall asleep and awake with shattered wills.), BFR (Escaped the Dreamers sealing them within the Dream Realm with the Dream Nail. The Dreamgate allows The Knight to travel through dreams to escape dreams, memories, and physical areas.), Acid Manipulation and Poison Manipulation (Can tank acidic venom from various Infected enemies such as the Aspids without getting poisoned.)

Charms: Clairvoyance (Via Wayward Compass, which whispers its location to the bearer.), improved Life Manipulation and Absorption (Via Soul Catcher, Soul Eater, and Dream Wielder.), improved Magic and Energy Projection (Via Shaman Stone and Spell Twister.), improved Acrobatics (Via Dashmaster and Sprintmaster.), Instinctive Action and Bodily Weaponry (Unconventional - Via Thorns Of Agony and Sharp Shadow.), limited Automatic Translation (Via Spore Shroom. Can understand the mushroom language with Spore Shroom equipped.), improved Weapon Mastery (Via Nailmaster's Glory, Heavy Blow. and Steady Body.), Damage Reduction (Via Lifeblood Heart and Lifeblood Core, both of which create a protective coating around The Knight that can take damage for them.), Thread Manipulation (Via Weaversong.), further Attack Reflection (Via Dreamshield.), Fire Manipulation (Via Grimmchild.)

Voidheart: Hive Mind (Type 1. Has unified with the Void.), Summoning (Of Siblings.)

Shade: Immortality and Abstract Existence (Types 8 and 2, respectively. As stated by The Hunter and Confessor Jiji, a Shade is the stain of regret one leaves upon the world after death. The Shades will remain upon Hallownest forever, with it being heavily implied that the regrets, and Shades as a whole, never fade. Killing the Shade is explicitly referred to as "[making] peace with [one's] regrets". Confessor Jiji and Steel Soul Jinn both appearing in the Wanderer's Journal indicates that both the Normal and Steel Soul Modes are canon.), Empathetic Manipulation (Shades are stated to drain the hope from those within Hallownest.), possibly Memory Manipulation (Causes The Knight to remember their time in the White Palace when nearby.), Magic and Energy Projection (Via Spells.), Resistance To Transmutation (Is unchanged by the Joni's Blessing and Hiveblood Charms, which transmute the bearer's bodily fluids into Lifeblood and honey, respectively.)
 
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Dura neg is a no-go it's just NPI

Knight should also have some resistance to venom and acid since all the stuff shrooms and mawleks shoot are all dissolving venom and acid that the knight can tank and not get poisoned by.
He should also have damage reduction via the lifeblood charms since they create a protective coat around the person who absorbs them.
 
Dura neg is a no-go it's just NPI

Knight should also have some resistance to venom and acid since all the stuff shrooms and mawleks shoot are all dissolving venom and acid that the knight can tank and not get poisoned by.
He should also have damage reduction via the lifeblood charms since they create a protective coat around the person who absorbs them.
Done.
 
Gonna kickstart some discussion and it'll be really funny if all of you are asleep but here we go

Do you guys have any personal hopes for Silksong? Be it in gameplay, in story/lore, etc.?

For me, I would love to see nore instances where an ally fights alongside you. I know the rarity of it was what made the moments memorable in HK, but I think spicing it up a bit wouldn't hurt. Or more usage of the environment as a means to attack!
 
Gonna kickstart some discussion and it'll be really funny if all of you are asleep but here we go

Do you guys have any personal hopes for Silksong? Be it in gameplay, in story/lore, etc.?

For me, I would love to see nore instances where an ally fights alongside you. I know the rarity of it was what made the moments memorable in HK, but I think spicing it up a bit wouldn't hurt. Or more usage of the environment as a means to attack!
I'd love to see more imbalanced boss fights similar to the Mantis Lords; The 2v1 and 3v1 dynamic works really well as it is, enough to make Sisters of Battle one of my favorite bosses in anything ever. I think if Silksong expands upon the movement from the original (which it seems to be doing) and manages to combine that with a similarly chaotic boss fight, then that alone is gonna make Silksong my GOTY lol

I don't think anything in any game puts me in as intense a focused trance as this right here, possibly my favorite part of Hollow Knight from a gameplay perspective. Outside of that, I guess I'm just hoping for more of the same? Hollow Knight is already one of my favorite games of all time, so really, I'll be happy if Team Cherry just expands upon what they've already been doing. Ig more moments like first entering the City of Tears would be appreciated, it's definitely one of the parts from my first playthrough I remember most (that and repeatedly getting my ass beat by Crystal Peak).
 
Gonna kickstart some discussion and it'll be really funny if all of you are asleep but here we go

Do you guys have any personal hopes for Silksong? Be it in gameplay, in story/lore, etc.?

For me, I would love to see nore instances where an ally fights alongside you. I know the rarity of it was what made the moments memorable in HK, but I think spicing it up a bit wouldn't hurt. Or more usage of the environment as a means to attack!
I really want more replayability. Hollow Knight mingled with the idea with Godhome, but once you do the quests and beat the bosses, that's it. Nothing more to see, unless you impose a challenge upon yourself. Granted, I understand that that's more of a Metroidvania problem than a HK problem (Dead Cells, Ori, and even Super Metroid come to mind), but it'd be nice for the game to have a bit of post-completion longevity. Or, since that's kind of an impossible request, I'd want less meaningless red herrings. That room in Deepnest with the Seal Of Binding is a really good example. What is that statue? The game says it's nothing important. Why does it have a Seal Of Binding? The game doesn't even acknowledge that, despite the only characters that can create Seals Of Binding that we're aware of being Higher Beings (The Pale King, The White Lady, Grimm, etc.). I'd just really like to see areas like that get axed in Silksong.
 
Gonna kickstart some discussion and it'll be really funny if all of you are asleep but here we go

Do you guys have any personal hopes for Silksong? Be it in gameplay, in story/lore, etc.?

For me, I would love to see nore instances where an ally fights alongside you. I know the rarity of it was what made the moments memorable in HK, but I think spicing it up a bit wouldn't hurt. Or more usage of the environment as a means to attack!
I hope the new mechanics aren't too complicated.
One thing I love about HK is that it isn't too hard to understand. Overall in combat you just have to keep track of 4 buttons other than the arrow keys. It makes things easy and the pogo mechanic is easy as well. I hope Silksong is also relatively easy and that it doesn't go the Shovel Knight route and make it harder when you play other characters. I get why someone would want that, but I just honestly wanna play without worrying about keeping track of too many things.

I personally want some heavy unique lore which I think we will probably get. I sorta hope to see a plot about the void unfold, maybe even a return of The Knight (imagine a boss being literally maxed out Knight that we played as but with void powers? That'd be crazy, especially if he could swap charms midc combat). I hope the bosses are just as fun.

I hope it all feels just as mysterious and expansive as HK. The feeling of the unknown surrounding me and not knowing what's gonna be in the next few rooms, having pleasant calming music and several paths across the desolate area in front of you..
Perhaps it won't be the same as exploring a zombified dead kingdom, but I hope it will be its own solid thing.

(that and repeatedly getting my ass beat by Crystal Peak)
Ngl I've seen people try and bring up Deepnest as the hardest area but like, Kingdom's Edge and Crystal Peak are so much more harder. Deepnest can be a bit annoying but for the most part its a lot easier because it isn't filled to the brim with hard-to-hit flying enemies with unique mechanics that make it harder to hit.
 
Also ngl I tried getting into Ori and the Blind Forest but I never did cause while the art was pretty I just didn't find it that interesting. It didn't feel as immersive or engaging as HK. The player character just felt way too far from us the player and the world just fels like a drawn image and nothing else, the creatures didn't feel unique. Idk exactly what made the game not good enough for me, maybe the fact that there's basically no options on where you can go to explore, but it still none the less made me walk away from it.
 
I'd love to see more imbalanced boss fights similar to the Mantis Lords; The 2v1 and 3v1 dynamic works really well as it is, enough to make Sisters of Battle one of my favorite bosses in anything ever. I think if Silksong expands upon the movement from the original (which it seems to be doing) and manages to combine that with a similarly chaotic boss fight, then that alone is gonna make Silksong my GOTY lol
Okay, YES. The intensity of those fights are legit amazing even if they can be frustrating to hell and back in the beginning. And you have an excellent point regarding the movement, Hornet is agility incarnate and I'm very excited from the snippets of gameplay we've seen that could live up to those expectations.
I don't think anything in any game puts me in as intense a focused trance as this right here, possibly my favorite part of Hollow Knight from a gameplay perspective. Outside of that, I guess I'm just hoping for more of the same? Hollow Knight is already one of my favorite games of all time, so really, I'll be happy if Team Cherry just expands upon what they've already been doing. Ig more moments like first entering the City of Tears would be appreciated, it's definitely one of the parts from my first playthrough I remember most (that and repeatedly getting my ass beat by Crystal Peak).
City of PEAK. Now that you mention it, I hope we have a memorable side-compatriot like Quirrel again.
I hope the new mechanics aren't too complicated.
One thing I love about HK is that it isn't too hard to understand. Overall in combat you just have to keep track of 4 buttons other than the arrow keys. It makes things easy and the pogo mechanic is easy as well. I hope Silksong is also relatively easy and that it doesn't go the Shovel Knight route and make it harder when you play other characters. I get why someone would want that, but I just honestly wanna play without worrying about keeping track of too many things.
Honestly I can understand the concern. I have faith in Team Cherry that they've probably kept this in mind while developing her full moveset and arsenal (which I'm very excited to see).
I personally want some heavy unique lore which I think we will probably get. I sorta hope to see a plot about the void unfold, maybe even a return of The Knight (imagine a boss being literally maxed out Knight that we played as but with void powers? That'd be crazy, especially if he could swap charms midc combat). I hope the bosses are just as fun.
Swapping charms mid-combat would be nutty but I am all for it. They should kick things up a notch and get wild, with an intensity in the combat to match it.

Honestly I wouldn't be too surprised if we get some nod to The Void but I'm not expecting much. Distancing themselves from Hallownest allows them to start a clean slate, though I'm certain there'll be enough winks and nods to the OG fanbase to keep them enthralled.
I hope it all feels just as mysterious and expansive as HK. The feeling of the unknown surrounding me and not knowing what's gonna be in the next few rooms, having pleasant calming music and several paths across the desolate area in front of you.. Perhaps it won't be the same as exploring a zombified dead kingdom, but I hope it will be its own solid thing.
The mysterious atmosphere was honestly a pivotal part as to why I was enthralled by the game in the first place during my first run. It's a perfect balance of giving you just enough info to string you along and keep you hooked.
I really want more replayability. Hollow Knight mingled with the idea with Godhome, but once you do the quests and beat the bosses, that's it. Nothing more to see, unless you impose a challenge upon yourself. Granted, I understand that that's more of a Metroidvania problem than a HK problem (Dead Cells, Ori, and even Super Metroid come to mind), but it'd be nice for the game to have a bit of post-completion longevity. Or, since that's kind of an impossible request, I'd want less meaningless red herrings. That room in Deepnest with the Seal Of Binding is a really good example. What is that statue? The game says it's nothing important. Why does it have a Seal Of Binding? The game doesn't even acknowledge that, despite the only characters that can create Seals Of Binding that we're aware of being Higher Beings (The Pale King, The White Lady, Grimm, etc.). I'd just really like to see areas like that get axed in Silksong.
Honestly, I somewhat agree with you about the replayability aspect. I felt once I had beaten the game, that was really it and there wasn't much left to do. But from what I've heard, Silk Soul (the Steel Soul equivalent) will make the story beats and changes more distinct for replayability. So your prayers might have been answered lol
 
So, I'd like to go back to this:
each bug has one soul, Soul Caches have three souls, Mistakes and Follies were infused with souls and are at least three times more powerful than basic enemies and other Sanctum enemies scale above them
For context, here's the image for a Soul Cache:

Knowing that a Soul Cache has three SOULs, and that each SOUL should be at least equal to, if not greater than the power of a bug, we could multiply the False Knight calc by three to get the total for the Mistakes and Follies, right...?

Well, no. You see, Bosses in Hollow Knight are sought out by the Godseekers because they are Gods, extremely powerful bugs. We know that the Godseekers think that these bugs are particularly powerful because of these three quotes:

"By attuning Ourselves We clutch at their greatness, their immortality. Their unknowable splendour."-Godseeker

"Device that resonates with beings of great power. Seek the gods of Hallownest. Tune their power. Through their strength, ascend."-Godtuner description

"Hallownest. This kingdom is blessed with true Gods. True! All around, the corpses of pretender Gods. But! Not in Hallownest..."-Godseeker


However, we also know that the bugs that the bugs in the Soul Sanctum are more powerful than the Crystal Peaks bugs, including Crystal Guardian, because of this quote:

"The crystal ore is said to contain a sort of energy, not as powerful as the soul the city dwellers harnessed but far less lethal."-Quirrel

Note that the Crystal Guardian is basically just a Husk Miner fused with big crystals.

Additionally, The Hunter heavily implies that the Vengefly King is far less threatening than certain common enemies from these quotes:

"A filthy creature that is happy to chew on any old thing it finds discarded on the cavern floor. When it notices a threat it will annoyingly scream and shriek, so kill it swiftly."-The Hunter's Journal entry for Vengefly King

"These creatures look weak, but sometimes burning pillars of heat will burst out from the crystals they carry on their backs. Be wary, and time your strikes well!"-The Hunter's Journal entry for Crystal Crawler


So, let's put all of this together:

•The bugs of the Soul Sanctum are more powerful than the ones in the Crystal Peak.

•The bugs of the Soul Sanctum are at least three times more powerful than other bugs.

•A bug from the Crystal Peak is more of a threat to The Hunter than Vengefly King.

•The Godseekers believe that the bosses we fight (minus Zote, of course) are more powerful than the average bug.

•Crystal Guardian, as a common bug empowered by the crystals, should have the SOUL of average bugs.


So what does all of this amount to? Well, it seems like the scaling chain goes like this:

Most bosses>The Hunter>Crystal Guardian>common Sanctum bugs>common Crystal peak bugs>Vengefly King>common overall bugs

Basically, everything before common overall bugs should scale to 3x the False Knight AP, and the bosses that The Hunter views as weak, being False Knight, Vengefly King, Gruz Mother, and Massive Moss Charger, scale to 1x the False Knight AP.


So here would be the new AP values:

(10-C) Far below 4.7 megajoules: Zote The Mighty

(At most 9-B) At most 4.7 megajoules: Belfly, Aspid, Grub Mimic, Vengefly, Gruzzer, Dirtcarver, Bee

(9-B) 4.7 megajoules (1x FK): False Knight, Vengefly King, Gruz Mother, Zote The Mighty (Durability only)

(9-B) 14.1 megajoules (3x FK): The Hunter, Grimmkin, Kingsmould, Zotelings (Due to being extremely powerful enemies)

(At least 9-B, likely far higher) At least 14.1 megajoules, likely far higher: The Knight, Hornet, Hollow Knight, The Radiance, Quirrel, Grimm, Dung Defender, Nosk, Oro & Mato, Sheo, Sly, Hive Knight, Crystal Guardian, Broken Vessel, The Collector, Soul Master, Uumuu, Markoth, Gorb, Marmu, Elder Hu, Galien, Xero, No Eyes


I know it's not the most groundbreaking of things, but it's a start, at least.
 
I'll talk later but I kinda disagree with this. Just because someone has three soul caches doesn't make then 3x stronger, it just means their soul pool is bigger.
Additionally, why is a bit of SOUL equal to the power of a bug? It's the whole soul and its energy. You can use its full power because you absorb the SOUL and then use it for spells, you burn through it instantly. Meanwhile the average bug would never burn through its entire life force in one attack.
Also just to mention, the caches give you less soul than you need to shoot one vengeful spirit. So a spell that doesn't kill fodder enemies or False Knight can now outscale them by 3x? Seems bonkers.
Additionally I don't buy your Crystal Crawlers > VK comparison. Just because he tells you to kill it swiftly doesn't mean it is suddenly weak. He can tell you to be more careful with one because they're more unexpected while VK's predictable nature would make him more killable.
 
Just because someone has three soul caches doesn't make then 3x stronger, it just means their soul pool is bigger.
SOUL is the very life that animates bugs' bodies, though you do have a point about SOUL not directly being equal to power. However, since being able to use even one SOUL makes you more powerful than bugs who can't use theirs, the Sanctum bugs might actually be at least three times stronger instead.

Also just to mention, the caches give you less soul than you need to shoot one vengeful spirit. So a spell that doesn't kill fodder enemies or False Knight can now outscale them by 3x? Seems bonkers.
Again, you are right about that, but we know that basically every Sanctum member has harvested multiple SOULs, as evidenced by the Mistakes and Follies having multiple of the same organs. Vengeful Spirit very much does kill fodder enemies, but even if it didn't, Desolate Dive, which uses just as much SOUL, does. Also, you're assuming that one SOUL = one Vengeful Spirit, when that wasn't my point at all. I didn't even mention the Spells. The Howling Wraiths and Desolate Dive Spells are both comprised of multiple SOULs, anyways. Looking back on it, FK and all of the other bosses, including the weaker ones, would probably scale above at least three SOULs.
Additionally I don't buy your Crystal Crawlers > VK comparison. Just because he tells you to kill it swiftly doesn't mean it is suddenly weak. He can tell you to be more careful with one because they're more unexpected while VK's predictable nature would make him more killable.
The Crystal Crawlers are not any less predictable than Vengefly King, they're actually more predictable because they have one attack whereas VK has two. Also, The Hunter was very clearly talking about the Crystal Crawler's power, not its unpredictability:

"These creatures look weak, but sometimes burning pillars of heat will burst out from the crystals they carry on their backs. Be wary, and time your strikes well!"-The Hunter's Journal entry for Crystal Crawler

That statement very heavily implies that The Hunter doesn't view it as weak, even though it looks weak. I definitely was wrong that Vengefly King is less powerful then the Crystal Crawlers, but not for the reason you suggested. Bosses scale above common enemies because:

"Device that resonates with beings of great power. Seek the gods of Hallownest. Tune their power. Through their strength, ascend."-Godtuner description

So, the scaling chain should really be: The Hunter, bosses > Sanctum enemies > other enemies > Zote The Mighty

The real question is whether common enemies scale to the FK calc, because if they don't, then yeah. This isn't all that useful apart from Sanctum enemies being at least 3x common enemies and bosses being above that.


Honestly, I'm too out of it to really argue for this right now, I might revisit it later if I'm less distracted.
 
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I might respond more properly later but one thing to mention

The Hunter may be scared of Crystal Crawlers more because one, it's claws may not be able to pierce them and two, their lasers would burn up its leaves.
 
I might respond more properly later but one thing to mention

The Hunter may be scared of Crystal Crawlers more because one, it's claws may not be able to pierce them and two, their lasers would burn up its leaves.
The Hunter advises The Knight to strike the Crystal Crawler, so I doubt his claws can't pierce them. The Hunter doesn't really have any other method of attacking apart from his claws and mouth, so he def isn't talking about Spells.

Their leaves only really "protect" (protect in quotes because it's really just camouflage) their head, so burning up his leaves probably isn't what The Hunter would be concerned about.
 
Rough look at the dream no more ending there's a crater left over by the void explosion. Calculating the part that seems to have been pulverized, it roughly gives me 6.7 megajoules, which isn't a lot but technically if we scale it to Hornet who was in the middle of it we could scale double damage bossess to twice that or 13.4 megajoules which would make them all 9-B+, which is better than nothing ig.
 
Markoth scales. Every other boss significantly downscales and 2-mask bosses scale 2x above it so to 92 megajoules.
Why would Markoth scale to the Void crater? He gets killed by a bunch of Kingdom's Edge bugs. Also, if he did scale, we'd also have to scale Oro because he hasn't been killed by the KE bugs whereas Markoth has, indicating that Oro's superior. And then we'd have to scale Sly for being Oro's superior and Sheo for being considered superior to Oro by Sly.

Also, it was already argued by me and a couple of others that double damage doesn't mean that they're literally 2x as powerful because then Flukemunga and the big Bees would be more powerful than the Hollow Knight and Hornet. I'm still perfectly fine with double damage bosses upscaling by an unknown amount, though.
 
Why would Markoth scale to the Void crater? He gets killed by a bunch of Kingdom's Edge bugs.
Actually I think both Markoth and Collector scale. The void crater should scale to KE Hornet and these two are available after they fight her.
Then I want to know what the evidence for him dying to KE bugs??
This are his own words here
"Never... have I been defeated in combat.
I can... see myself there, still sleeping. How long have I been hidden here?
Here at the edge of the world, no-one could find me... except you.
Warriors, knights, kings, even time itself... they have no power over me. Only you.
You are the darkness... come to consume me."
He isolated himself and died there.

Also do note I am scaling EVERY boss to the calc, just to a far lesser degree. Little things like the fact that you could damage Hegemol's armor to an extent when the guy was one of the top knights of the Pale King.
Also, if he did scale, we'd also have to scale Oro because he hasn't been killed by the KE bugs whereas Markoth has, indicating that Oro's superior. And then we'd have to scale Sly for being Oro's superior and Sheo for being considered superior to Oro by Sly.
as per what I said above, Markoth didn't get killed by them. The four nailmaster will downscale from 9-A anyways.
Also, it was already argued by me and a couple of others that double damage doesn't mean that they're literally 2x as powerful because then Flukemunga and the big Bees would be more powerful than the Hollow Knight and Hornet. I'm still perfectly fine with double damage bosses upscaling by an unknown amount, though.
Except this was already accepted in the CRT. Like ok, huge tough enemies who mainly rely on weight+kinetic energy do 2x damage. What's the big deal?
Also we can just do the good ol' classic "fodder don't scale to bosses at all" trick and ignore the damage output non-bosses have like basically all rpg and many games like Skyrim do already. Just scale fodder separately.
 
Actually I think both Markoth and Collector scale. The void crater should scale to KE Hornet and these two are available after they fight her.
Then I want to know what the evidence for him dying to KE bugs??
This are his own words here
"Never... have I been defeated in combat.
I can... see myself there, still sleeping. How long have I been hidden here?
Here at the edge of the world, no-one could find me... except you.
Warriors, knights, kings, even time itself... they have no power over me. Only you.
You are the darkness... come to consume me."
He isolated himself and died there.
Markoth may or may not have died by the KE bugs, but it's too vague to know, so let's discard that. Markoth states that "Warriors, knights, kings, even time itself, they have no power over me." There are a couple of problems with this:

Firstly, we can't take Markoth at his word alone because he's immensely arrogant. Secondly, he would have encountered none of the other bosses due to how isolated he was. Thirdly, the "power" Markoth is referring to isn't literally being more powerful than him, it's the power to erase him from existence, as indicated by the "even time itself" line, which references him surviving the passing of time as a Spirit. Fourthly, if your point is that "Hornet survived the Void crater so Markoth should scale since The Knight fights him afterwards", then Marmu, Mato, Sheo, Oro, and Sly should all scale too.
Also we can just do the good ol' classic "fodder don't scale to bosses at all" trick and ignore the damage output non-bosses have like basically all rpg and many games like Skyrim do already. Just scale fodder separately.
Sure, but then Enraged Guardian, Nailmasters (with their Nail Arts), and the Dream Bosses would be 2x above Hornet, which is still really weird. Double damage is a gameplay mechanic to indicate that enemies/bosses are especially powerful, not literally 2x as powerful, and the reason Hornet and HK deal one mask is probably for the sake of fairness.

I'm perfectly fine with The Collector scaling (only physically though, because their bugs aren't even remotely comparable). The ones I think should scale to the Void crater feat (apart from the main four) are Quirrel (damaged Uumuu which The Knight couldn't do), Grimm (spawn of a Higher Being alone whereas Hornet is more-or-less half Higher Being), The Collector (is Void), and possibly the Nailmasters (for being considered above the other bosses by the Godseeker).
 
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