High-Godly and True-Godly Regenerationn revisions (Staff only)

[Udlmaster]

So you and Udlmaster agree then?

I wouldn't like True-Godly just regenerating from 1-A Power Concept manip, because Type 1 and 2 function the same just not on a 1-A Level.

So it becomes the same thing where it's the non-sequitur that Power > Layers Of Reality

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Overlord775]

@Udl

While yes, True-Godly regen shoudln't just be handed out freely, if you can count on your hand the number of verses that have an ability, then there's a problem

 

[Udlmaster]

@Udl

While yes, True-Godly regen shoudln't just be handed out freely, if you can count on your hand the number of verses that have an ability, then there's a problem

Well, the number is still large, there are numerous verses which use narrative in such a way.

DC, Marvel, Unwritten, WoD, D&D, Gumball, Cowder, Umineko, Sonic, Twin Peaks, TES (I think), Medaka Box, Toriko, Dark Tower, Cthulhu Saves the World, SCP, Ichiban, Star Maker, Etc.

 

[Overlord775]

yes, those are verses that have a narrative, but out of all of them only 5-6 have regen feats from being erased from the narrative

 

[Udlmaster]

yes, those are verses that have a narrative, but out of all of them only 5-6 have regen feats from being erased from the narrative

The Ones I listed off where ones with Narrative Regen or should have Narrative Regen.

As I didn't include ones like Doki Doki, who don't have Narrative Regen.

 

[Overlord775]

i very much doubt most of those verses even threat Narrative erasure as above conceptual thing, most of the times just being toonforce jokes

Also, i just notice you put Toriko there, which is the most ridiculus thing i've heard in a while

 

[Udlmaster]

>Also, i just notice you put Toriko there, which is the most ridiculus thing i've heard in a while

From what I've heard they eat concepts and the narrative itself.

I don't know anything about the verse outside of what I've heard.

 

[GyroNutz]

Just because something is meta/fourth wall breaking and treats narrative erasure as a thing that can occur doesn't make it superior to other forms of existence erasure. Non-existence (Type 2) seems like the logical next step to me. After your body is destroyed, you're reduced to your mind/soul. After your mind + soul are destroyed, you're reduced to your concept. After that is destroyed you are reduced to absolutely nothing. If a character can exist after that, and be erased, and still come back from that, then that's a higher level than regenerating after your concept is destroyed.

Taking a purist's stance, there's no way you can go beyond "true non-existence" since there's nothing less than nothing. But fiction doesn't adhere to logic like that all the time.

As a sidenote, I don't think the obscurity of the type of erasure/regen matters too much, especially when dealing with the most exclusive types of regen that exist.

 

[Antoniofer]

Regenerating from true ne would be the higher form of regen, if someone how someone erase it back to ne and remain there I wouldn't call it "beyond ne", but rather that the user not just ultimately erase people, but also negate someone immortality and damage is irreversible.

And I shouldn't be the only one that thinks that rating someone erasing from plot as the higher form would be exaggerating, in these cartoons most of the time is "not enough budget to animate the characters", and is not like they were ultimately erased (I even think there's few intances in Gumball of more powerful erasure within the verse, and do not involve the plot).

 

[Udlmaster]

>Just because something is meta/fourth wall breaking and treats narrative erasure as a thing that can occur doesn't make it superior to other forms of existence erasure

With my addendum to what would classify as True-Godly from Narrative Erasure, it would have to follow the Onion, where the layers are larger and contain the smaller.

So, with the requirement of that, yes, the Type Of Narrative Erasure we are using for True-Godly, it would make it superior to all other forms of existence Erasure.

>Taking a purist's stance

It doesn't really seem like a purist stance, more you just unwilling to adjust your stance, not being rude, just an observation.

>there's no way you can go beyond "true non-existence" since there's nothing less than nothing.

But there is, many verses call it different things, commonly just "The Void".

And I gave you it in a valued way, where beyond non-existence would be -1 as a value.

>But fiction doesn't adhere to logic like that all the time.

Because it is not an absolute logic, and can be easily worked around.

>And I shouldn't be the only one that thinks that rating someone erasing from plot as the higher form would be exaggerating, in these cartoons most of the time is "not enough budget to animate the characters", and is not like they were ultimately erased

However, I added an addendum to my proposition which would make it more definable instead of people wanking Buggs Bunny to True Godly.

Yeah, which is why the suffix of "Plot must be shown to contain or be superior to the abstract concepts of the verse", or otherwise it would be equal to conceptual Erasure.

Its why I used the onion analogy, because the levels do need to get superior then the last. Containing the others or being the source for them, and that's why Narrative Erasure works.

The Physical Level —> The Spiritual Level/Mental Level (The source for the Body's life and action)—> The Conceptual Level (The source for all thing about the person) —> The Narrstive Level (The Source for their concert being birthed into reality in the first place, along with everything else)

 

[Elizhaa]

Honestly, I think Bambu's option (A) is better since true-godly qualifications would be less controversial; the high-godly proposal is the same as Ultima's which I believed most of us agreed with. Based on Ultima's proposal a lot of verses under Tier 1-A that have would just get True-Godly because of Existence and Non-existence Erasure;s statement like some ofthose listed above. I think the guidleline is not strict enough as it would feel if like the verse used the correct buzzword then they would get it when the Regenerationn feat could easily a mid-godly Regenerationn feat. Even if Non-existence Erasure was tied to the Nonexistent Physiology (Type 2) Regenerationn, it would be limited to the character's dimensional level because on the thread where it was accepted, the dimensional level of characters was as the limit for under Tier 1-A character as the character would still exist conceptually in higher dimensional framework. In this case, we would pretty much have the old high-godly definition for this true-godly definition.


I also think Antoniofer's points on the narrative make sense

 

[Udlmaster]

> I think the guidleline is not strict enough as it would feel if like the verse used the correct buzzword then they would get it when the Regenerationn feat could easily a mid-godly Regenerationn feat.

But that's why we debate over the information and why we analyse and scrutinise them, this would be unlikely to occur if we analysed the hypothetical scan in question.

>snip

The rest seems like rambling and I can't understand what you're trying to say, not an insult I just genuinely don't know what you're saying here.

 

[GyroNutz]

@Udl You seemed to have missed my point there. I agree that there's something beyond non-existence, whatever that may be, due to how fiction works. The purist's stance thing was to say that yes, while logically there shouldn't be something less than nothing, fiction throws that out of the window.

 

[Udlmaster]

@Udl You seemed to have missed my point there. I agree that there's something beyond non-existence, whatever that may be, due to how fiction works. The purist's stance thing was to say that yes, while logically there shouldn't be something less than nothing, fiction throws that out of the window.

In reality, sure there shouldn't be anything less than nothing, we actually don't know what "Nothing" looks like, even a vacuum has something within it which is interesting now I think about it.

But if that's what you meant, then I apologise for misunderstanding what you meant.

Anyway, like I said, I'm pro-Ultima's proposal and my own proposal

 

[Antvasima]

I am uncertain regarding which option that the staff lean towards using here.

 

[GrathOfLux]

While I personally can't say I'd support removing High and True Godly all together, are there any other potential suggestions for what True Godly should be? Both Ultima's and Uldmaster's/Bambu's suggestions seem acceptable, but the problem is that there doesn't seem to be any serious agreement on either of them and there is a lot of contention for both points. If there are any other feasible suggestions for what True Godly should be, it might be worth suggesting.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

May I suggest something like: meta erasure. As a way to group the level of erasures that go beyond things like body and soul and concept (type 2). It can contain erasure from non-existence, narrative erasure, type 1 conceptual erasure.

I'm not really a fan of ranking these type of thing. You can't really say erasing someone from non-existence is more impressive than erasing someone from the narrative. These are motifs that are very specific to each verse and are also something that is not common throughout fiction like souls or even type 2 concepts.

I would suggest:

• high godly would be Regenerationn from erasure of a type 2 concept

• true godly would be Regenerationn from erasure of a story's meta aspect

where a meta aspect is a specific and unique motif in a work of fiction that deals directly with how a thing exists in said work.

 

[Antvasima]

What do the rest of you think about Iam's suggestion?

 

[GrathOfLux]

Admittedly, the idea for True-Godly does seem a bit too generalised and broad for it to be very applicable (as in, it'd function on such a case-by-case basis that it would be hard to apply).

Even so, I honestly think it could work.

 

[Udlmaster]

Looking at this thread and reviewing all the points, it looks like what we should do if define Existence Erasure first.


This is far easier to do and will basically postpone this thread for when Existence Erasure gets better defined, that way we can apply the Erasures to the Regen more accurately.

 

[Udlmaster]

What do the rest of you think about Iam's suggestion?

I am unsure about the Meta-Aspect part.

While it solves the debate, it starts a new one on "What sufficently classified as a Meta aspect enough to be True-Godly"

It causes the issue of defining/drawing the line.

 

[Antvasima]

Somebody should probably ask the following staff members to help out with giving input here:

Promestei, SomebodyData, The real cal howard, Dragonmasterxyz, Celestial Pegasus, Soldier Blue, Monarch Laciel, Saikou The Lewd King, DarkDragonMedeus, AKM sama, Wokista, Ultima Reality, Mr. Bambu, Gemmysaur, Theglassman12, Qawsedf234, Crabwhale, Sir Ovens, Warren Valio, The Calaca, Zark2099, ByAsura, GyroNutz, ShiroyashaGinSa

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

Can you use that bot to contact them?

 

[GrathOfLux]

Using a bot to mass contact people doesn't seem reliable. I'm mildly busy at the moment, but I'll see if I can contact them each personally in a moment.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Udlmaster]

Thank you for helping out.

I've contacted a few of them, just waiting for them to appear.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

This could use an highlight if you ask me, as this affects quite a lot of pages.

Edit: Huh, it seems it already has been.

Maybe the staff members should be reminded of this thread?

 

[Antvasima]

You can ask the administrators if you wish.

 

[Bobsican]

Went ahead and asked some.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you.

 

[Antvasima]

DontTalkDT might also be able to help.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Iamunanimousinthat proposal is fine with me.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Imo, i like Iamunanimousinthat proposal, but... may i ask for more elaboration on what "where a meta aspect is a specific and unique motif in a work of fiction that deals directly with how a thing exists in said work" this part so i can understand it better? maybe some really good examples??

 

[Elizhaa]

The meta aspect, I need to be defined better before I can agree with Iamunanimousinthat's proposal on True-Godly Regenerationn because it sounds somewhat vague for a proper qualification.

 

[Udlmaster]

It also becomes the issue of "My true-Godly is better than yours"

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Meta aspect is purposefully vague, it's to group a level existence that is very specific and unique to a verse. Like: erasing something from non-existence or from a narrative.

This meta aspect would have to be something well defined and explained. And has to be qualitative superior to Regenerationn from body, mind, soul or even a type 2 concept.

It's a way to group all these things together, as we can't have them all be their own seperate tier, and we can't really say well, "regenerating after being erased from non-existence is more impressive than regenerating from being erased from a narrative of the story".

To get this level, you would have to successfully argue that your verse has a level of existence that is greater than that of a body, mind, soul, and type 2 concept, and that said character was specifically erased at this higher level, and then regenerated. It is very case by case basis.

 

[GrathOfLux]

Honestly, while it may seem contradictory to set up explicit rules that still need to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, I honestly think this would work. A lot of stories have the concept of a "meta-narrative" within them, and many of them take slightly or even notably different forms. While cases of True-Godly would need to be, again, evaluated on a case-by-case basis, this wouldn't necessarily be complicated to implement.

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

Even by further explanations, I think this True-Godly still has a flaw. What will happen when two different True-Godly is compared side-by-side? Discussions will be complicated even by this definition due to being able to get True-Godly by getting any additional level of existence, which makes it very hard to discuss when something like Regenerationn Negation will show up.