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So which Option do you guys prefer?
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High-Godly and True-Godly Regenerationn revisions (Staff only)
- Thread starter The_King_of_Prudence
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One thing is erase some that is 1-A (that despite transcend the duality of existence and nonexistence, is still in an state of being that can be reduced to not existing [theorically speaking]), but erasing someone beyond nonexistence is absurd, as NE is already the lowest point of not existing.
Udlmaster
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No, the power of the Erasure DOES NOT matter, the level it erases at matters
I had this discussion in the previous thread and it was a hasty generalisation
People where's putting 1-A any Erasure above all other Regen.
It's a massive fallacy, the current logic is that physical 1-A EE > Regen post Conceptual Erasure. Which is faulty logic.
I had this discussion in the previous thread and it was a hasty generalisation
People where's putting 1-A any Erasure above all other Regen.
It's a massive fallacy, the current logic is that physical 1-A EE > Regen post Conceptual Erasure. Which is faulty logic.
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Iirc we where trying to be trying to get away from giving a specific tier its own Regen (1-A) when this started.
Udlmaster
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It's not, many verses do in fact erase beyond existence and non-existence, WoD, SMT, I believe even TES does it as well.Antoniofer said:
D&D as well, they was able to erase literal non-existence itself.
Many verses have things that are "Less than nothing" or have beings reduces to "Less than nothing"
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Yes, I believe TES have Zero-Sum, and I guess with D&D refer to the Last Word, but even nonexistence characters exist in some way; is matter of definitions, not that I disagree with the power of these beings, they could be called "beyond NE", but if it still fit the conventional definition of NE, is still NE.
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Isn't erasing beyond non-existence far to specific??? It feels far to limiting
I'm seeing "many verses" but how many is actually many? Is it a relevant enough number???
I'm seeing "many verses" but how many is actually many? Is it a relevant enough number???
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@Antonio
The level of nonexistance we are talking about here is not just normal NEP, it's Type 2, Conceptual Nonexistance
2: Idealistic Nonexistence: The lack of absolutely everything to a state of nonexistence at a conceptual level. Such a state defies even the most basic logical principles and is unknowable in the truest form, as it is not a state at all. Such entities are typically presented as primordial voids or pure emptiness, or any abstract state which precedes or opposes the state of existence on all levels. In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence.
Regenerating from being erased to such level is what True-Godly would become
The level of nonexistance we are talking about here is not just normal NEP, it's Type 2, Conceptual Nonexistance
2: Idealistic Nonexistence: The lack of absolutely everything to a state of nonexistence at a conceptual level. Such a state defies even the most basic logical principles and is unknowable in the truest form, as it is not a state at all. Such entities are typically presented as primordial voids or pure emptiness, or any abstract state which precedes or opposes the state of existence on all levels. In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence.
Regenerating from being erased to such level is what True-Godly would become
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@Overlord If that's the case not a lot of verses apply for that. Certainly not SMT. That would be like erasing the Overvoid from DC.
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True-Godly is ment to be the survive-all regen level, so it makes sense only a few can get it
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@Udlmaster, is matter of perspective, one can say and prove that do not exist at all level, but for those beings that can, at least, sense it, it exist, even if it can't be touched (intangible) or alter it (immutable). That's why, "true ne" (or "beyond ne", whatever one wish to call it) is something that can't even be talk about (like the definition of Ayin).
Udlmaster
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>is matter of perspective
I hope other people also thought of this.
>but for those beings that can, at least, sense it, it exist
Well, not even then, Omniscient beings would be able to in a sense, sense Beings beyond the Duality of Existence and Non-existence, they still wouldn't have to exist to be sensed, as sensing just means they can find a variable for information.
Now, if we where talking about informationless/no truth values then that would be different, but were just talking about a being beyond Existence and Non-existence, they could still have information it just would require ways to specifically find it, like how one would have to specifically find ways to sense a soul or a concept.
>That's why, "true ne" (or "beyond ne", whatever one wish to call it) is something that can't even be talk about (like the definition of Ayin).
But we can, and have for thousands of years, the Dao is beyond all dualities including existence and non-existence.
All Transdual and non-dual beings are beyond that Duality, because we cannot imagine it due to our binary thinking doesn't negate it being a thing in fiction, otherwise Yog-Sorhothery would lose all its power and mystique.
I hope other people also thought of this.
>but for those beings that can, at least, sense it, it exist
Well, not even then, Omniscient beings would be able to in a sense, sense Beings beyond the Duality of Existence and Non-existence, they still wouldn't have to exist to be sensed, as sensing just means they can find a variable for information.
Now, if we where talking about informationless/no truth values then that would be different, but were just talking about a being beyond Existence and Non-existence, they could still have information it just would require ways to specifically find it, like how one would have to specifically find ways to sense a soul or a concept.
>That's why, "true ne" (or "beyond ne", whatever one wish to call it) is something that can't even be talk about (like the definition of Ayin).
But we can, and have for thousands of years, the Dao is beyond all dualities including existence and non-existence.
All Transdual and non-dual beings are beyond that Duality, because we cannot imagine it due to our binary thinking doesn't negate it being a thing in fiction, otherwise Yog-Sorhothery would lose all its power and mystique.
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I'm not talking about dualities, I'm well aware out there exist characters that can erase those (being Zero-Sum or Lart Words); as I said, not problem with the power itself, but the definition, NE (the true one), is the 0 below everything (technically speaking).
Conceptual transcendent beings can still be erased, despite being beyond these dualities, they still are an state of being. So is not be erased beyond existence, just a meta erasure or what you can call that can annihilate those transdual beings, as stuff like "beyond ne" or "less than nothing" do not means much without context.
Conceptual transcendent beings can still be erased, despite being beyond these dualities, they still are an state of being. So is not be erased beyond existence, just a meta erasure or what you can call that can annihilate those transdual beings, as stuff like "beyond ne" or "less than nothing" do not means much without context.
Udlmaster
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>I'm not talking about dualities, I'm well aware out there exist characters that can erase those (being Zero-Sum or Lart Words); as I said, not problem with the power itself, but the definition, NE (the true one), is the 0 below everything (technically speaking).
But logically speaking, that isn't a bad thing, as having a 0 in every value is still a truth value and therefore doesn't break any logical reason.
>Conceptual transcendent beings can still be erased, despite being beyond these dualities
If you mean a being who transcends all concepts, then they wouldn't be able to be erased in a normal way, like how a Type 5 Immortal cannot die in a normal way, even Meta-Death Manipulation doesn't work, because it's still trying to get through the impenetrable wall instead of going around it.
>So is not be erased beyond existence, just a meta erasure or what you can call that can annihilate those transdual beings
It would be theoretically impossible to do anything to a Transdual being, there is no binary concept even meta concepts which would affect a truly Transdual being.
Imagjne the impenetrable wall analogy.
>as stuff like "beyond ne" or "less than nothing" do not means much without context.
Well, if we took it in a very simple version, because we shouldn't muddy the waters.
If we imagine being less than as negative and being more as a higher possitive.
Then we can imagine less than 0 (Nothing) as -1, to exist as -1 and to go back up to 1 means you've "travelled" further to get back there and therefore would denote a simple idea of More powerful Regen.
But logically speaking, that isn't a bad thing, as having a 0 in every value is still a truth value and therefore doesn't break any logical reason.
>Conceptual transcendent beings can still be erased, despite being beyond these dualities
If you mean a being who transcends all concepts, then they wouldn't be able to be erased in a normal way, like how a Type 5 Immortal cannot die in a normal way, even Meta-Death Manipulation doesn't work, because it's still trying to get through the impenetrable wall instead of going around it.
>So is not be erased beyond existence, just a meta erasure or what you can call that can annihilate those transdual beings
It would be theoretically impossible to do anything to a Transdual being, there is no binary concept even meta concepts which would affect a truly Transdual being.
Imagjne the impenetrable wall analogy.
>as stuff like "beyond ne" or "less than nothing" do not means much without context.
Well, if we took it in a very simple version, because we shouldn't muddy the waters.
If we imagine being less than as negative and being more as a higher possitive.
Then we can imagine less than 0 (Nothing) as -1, to exist as -1 and to go back up to 1 means you've "travelled" further to get back there and therefore would denote a simple idea of More powerful Regen.
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Welp, technically ne is not a concept, is the opposite of an state of being, so transcending concepts wouldn't make you immune to that (however, one may have a power that makes it immune). To be short, if the being was erased to the point that no one remember it, there's no traces of it existing anywhere, it has no point of view, then is ultimately erased (although, I may miss another form of existing), so is in a state of ne, just as Ayin, so it can't be erased beyond that.
Udlmaster
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>Welp, technically ne is not a concept
Yeah, I know that, if Non-existent physiology is 0 then beyond all concepts could be 2, as a high layer of existence, it could also be "infinity" as the idea is that you can't exactly reduce them, as the whole idea of reducing them with finite numbers wouldn't work a infinite being, but anyway.
>To be short, if the being was erased to the point that no one remember it, there's no traces of it existing anywhere, it has no point of view, then is ultimately erased
But that would be less then being conceptually erased, and even then, conceptually erasing them would lead to this.
Which is why I posited the idea of the Plot Erasure.
If the Plot is shown to contain all concepts within it, then erasing the final layer of the "onion" (The layer of the onion analogy is me explaining reality like layers of an onion each getting more complex and larger with each layer.), The Plot would contain everything beyond even the concepts.
So if we go to the layer analogy, we have physical, spiritual/mental, conceptual/abstract and then meta.
Yeah, I know that, if Non-existent physiology is 0 then beyond all concepts could be 2, as a high layer of existence, it could also be "infinity" as the idea is that you can't exactly reduce them, as the whole idea of reducing them with finite numbers wouldn't work a infinite being, but anyway.
>To be short, if the being was erased to the point that no one remember it, there's no traces of it existing anywhere, it has no point of view, then is ultimately erased
But that would be less then being conceptually erased, and even then, conceptually erasing them would lead to this.
Which is why I posited the idea of the Plot Erasure.
If the Plot is shown to contain all concepts within it, then erasing the final layer of the "onion" (The layer of the onion analogy is me explaining reality like layers of an onion each getting more complex and larger with each layer.), The Plot would contain everything beyond even the concepts.
So if we go to the layer analogy, we have physical, spiritual/mental, conceptual/abstract and then meta.
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Being conceptually erased would involve all that, yes, being erased at all levels would be physical, esoterical, conceptual and point of view (cuz concept exist cuz of this). Plot Erasure is variable tho, not all verses acknowledge they are part of an story (and even then, who can do this aside from people like Altair or Ajimu?).
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WoD characters have plot stuff like that but thats about it besides maybe DC/SCP since they are also heavy Meta verses, im also opposed to using Narrative stuff since like you said many verses including several strong ones dont acknowledge Plot/Narrative in verse.
Udlmaster
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>Plot Erasure is variable tho, not all verses acknowledge they are part of an story
Yeah, which is why the suffix of "Plot must be shown to contain or be superior to the abstract concepts of the verse", or otherwise it would be equal to conceptual Erasure.
>and even then, who can do this aside from people like Altair or Ajimu?
Chowder has a lot of plot hax and plot regen surprisingly, like "You're not in this episode".
Gumball and Adventure time also, (Why are most of these from Cartoon Network).
Also, technically D&D also has this, with a Book which can manipulate the Plot, and of course The Gamemaster himself would have this.
World of Darkness (You knew this was coming) have this too, as they can manipulate the Plot and the Hypernarrative (Plot^2) and can regen from it.
Edit:
I somehow forgot about the Narrative bullshitery Beyond even WoD that is SCP
Yeah, which is why the suffix of "Plot must be shown to contain or be superior to the abstract concepts of the verse", or otherwise it would be equal to conceptual Erasure.
>and even then, who can do this aside from people like Altair or Ajimu?
Chowder has a lot of plot hax and plot regen surprisingly, like "You're not in this episode".
Gumball and Adventure time also, (Why are most of these from Cartoon Network).
Also, technically D&D also has this, with a Book which can manipulate the Plot, and of course The Gamemaster himself would have this.
World of Darkness (You knew this was coming) have this too, as they can manipulate the Plot and the Hypernarrative (Plot^2) and can regen from it.
Edit:
I somehow forgot about the Narrative bullshitery Beyond even WoD that is SCP
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Chowder do not really erase them, they merely removed hem from the episode (most likely cuz the character truely wasn't supposed to appear in the episode), and even then, in that case someone wasn't ultimately erased, as the character has still traces of it within the verse.
My actual "issue" with plot controlling powers tho, by definition that power is always above anything as it comes from acknowledge they comes from a fictional works (refering to real 4th wall breaching, otherwise it would be only transdualism).
My actual "issue" with plot controlling powers tho, by definition that power is always above anything as it comes from acknowledge they comes from a fictional works (refering to real 4th wall breaching, otherwise it would be only transdualism).
Udlmaster
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>and even then, in that case someone wasn't ultimately erased
But we do actually see them be erased, and we know everything they would be subsequently in that episode was erased too, so they was erased however they either regenerated or Cowder went "You are in this episode"
>My actual "issue" with plot controlling powers tho, by definition that power is always above anything as it comes from acknowledge they comes from a fictional works
Not necessarily, metafiction treats it more like a weird meta-Fate rather than acknowledge they're in a fictional works.
WoD does the same thing, where everyone can be a Storyteller (The GM) if they want to.
Unwritten does a similar thing, where they're still within the verse and never break the "4th wall" and talk to the reader.
>otherwise it would be only transdualism
No idea what you mean by this.
But we do actually see them be erased, and we know everything they would be subsequently in that episode was erased too, so they was erased however they either regenerated or Cowder went "You are in this episode"
>My actual "issue" with plot controlling powers tho, by definition that power is always above anything as it comes from acknowledge they comes from a fictional works
Not necessarily, metafiction treats it more like a weird meta-Fate rather than acknowledge they're in a fictional works.
WoD does the same thing, where everyone can be a Storyteller (The GM) if they want to.
Unwritten does a similar thing, where they're still within the verse and never break the "4th wall" and talk to the reader.
>otherwise it would be only transdualism
No idea what you mean by this.
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Basically there's an fictional world in a verse, like a fantasy story, then a character there goes "don't like here" and decide to go out and in how it pleases. The kind of atuff that makes one immune to Subjective Reality by transcending their fictional state (yes, something like A Voice Behind Me, but within the verse).
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I think that going with narrative erasure for True Godly is too restricting, as like only 5-6 verses would even have it
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Narritive Erasure does seem pretty restrictive (Although so was Nonexistence Erasure so eh) since as I said earlier many verses dont operate with a Meta system even among the top verses several dont have a true Meta Narrative system.
But if thats what the majority decides then I could live with it.
But if thats what the majority decides then I could live with it.
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I mean, I do understand why being too restrictive may be a problem.
But, well... it is True-Godly we're talking about. When even Mid-Godly is regenerating when the entirety of your physical body and soul is completely erased, True-Godly would have to be pretty extreme.
Still, I see your point.
But, well... it is True-Godly we're talking about. When even Mid-Godly is regenerating when the entirety of your physical body and soul is completely erased, True-Godly would have to be pretty extreme.
Still, I see your point.
Udlmaster
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Achully >: [ Iiiiii came up with the idea mooooonthe aguuuu MmmmmmMr. Bambu said:
I'm gonna have to sue you for copyright infringement.
Udlmaster
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I do agree it is extreme, but it is supposed to be, as you get higher up it should be logical to assume that less things should appear, because it's getting more and more absurd, much like our own tiering System.Overlord775 said:
Naturally, if we made to too broad it would devalue the highest level of regen, and may cause issues such as True-Godly inadvertently being weaker than High-Godly.
Its why I used the onion analogy, because the levels do need to get superior then the last. Containing the others or being the source for them, and that's why Narrative Erasure works.
The Physical Level —> The Spiritual Level/Mental Level (The source for the Body's life and action)—> The Conceptual Level (The source for all thing about the person) —> The Narrstive Level (The Source for their concert being birthed into reality in the first place, along with everything else)
Mr. Bambu
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Achully >: [ Iiiiii came up with the idea mooooonthe aguuuu Mmmmmm
I'm gonna have to sue you for copyright infringement.
super crazy coincidence that the last thread that had my proposition was written up months ago, eh?
I'm gonna have to sue you for copyright infringement.
Mr. Bambu
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In case it wasn't painfully obvious, I still stand by my proposition from the last thread, designated here as "A".
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It should be noted that there seemingly isn't much agreement yet over whether Udlmaster's/Mr Bambu's/"Option A" is the best, or if Ultima's suggestion is the best. We should probably try and get the opinions of people who were involved in this thread before we jump to one or the other.
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