Heracles fights himself

[Mageman460]

Hello, I've been browsing this wiki for a while and wanted to try a fight. I realized Heracles in myth was the same tier as Berserker in F/SN with the Nasuverse upgrades to 6C. So I wanted to try Berserker with a steady supply of mana versus the Mortal Hero Heracles from myth. Speed is Equalized if it needs to be.

 

[Okorito1]

Most likely incon or a stomp in F/SN herc's favour, it dsepends on how myth herc's invulnerability works, if it doesnt protect him from Fate herc, its a hard stomp, if it does, Incon

 

[Mageman460]

Not 100% sure, but it looks like the Nemean Lion Pelt simply prevents him from being harmed by weapons made by mortals. So Nine Lives, Berserker's axe-sword, wouldn't work against him, but Berserker should be able to harm him with hand to hand as he is Divine. Why is this a stomp?

 

[Okorito1]

Not 100% sure, but it looks like the Nemean Lion Pelt simply prevents him from being harmed by weapons made by mortals. So Nine Lives, Berserker's axe-sword, wouldn't work against him, but Berserker should be able to harm him with hand to hand as he is Divine. Why is this a stomp?

As a servant weapon, Nine lives WOULD affect him, as a weapon wielded by a servant is considered non-mortal made, otherwise 90% of servants wouldnt be able to harm eachother, but even if it cant, hand to hand combat would be a massive advantage to fate herc, as he is most used to it, his weapon was just something used in stay night, and its a stomp as if they are equal AP, or even similar, one killing blow from fate herc is a GG, whereas a killing blow from myth herc simply means fate herc revives himself within the minute.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

No, Nine Lives is a technique, not a weapon. If he used it with a weapon made by people, then Nemean Lion Pelt would just protect him nevertheless, just as it protected him from Hyppolitha's arrows and Gilgamesh's weapons. Servants harming each other has nothing to do with acting like they are non-human made, it has to do with them being living mystery and needing to be affected by something with mystery, but as long as a Servant is the one holding it, something mundane could deal damage just like how Spartacus could hurt Servants with the debris sent flying with his weapon once he was so overcharged that his residual magical energy on the rocks let them hurt the Servants.

Myth Lion Pelt simply makes Heracles invulnerable. no caveats to it.

Also, the Fate Herc with the Nemean Lion Pelt doesn't have God Hand, so no reviving.

 

[Mageman460]

Ah, my bad I thought Nine Lives was his weapon. This is Berserker Heracles though, the one from Fate/Stay Night, so he does have God Hand. I had Googled the Nemean Lion and saw that it was only immune to human made weapons according to a few sources.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

The nemean lion from the original myth or...? Because Hercules needed to either shot him in the mouth or strangulate him, so punching him certainly doesn't seem like it would have worked.

And nah, Nine Lives is a technique, a technique that auto adapts to any necessity or any weapon, even bare handed, but Berserker Heracles doesn't have it. He also doesn't have the pelt.

Still, Berserker Heracles doesn't have the intelligence to wrestle and strangle myth Heracles unless there is someone to command him, but Myth Heracles doesn't have any way of killing him twelve times, so it just ends in an incon.

 

[Okorito1]

The nemean lion from the original myth or...? Because Hercules needed to either shot him in the mouth or strangulate him, so punching him certainly doesn't seem like it would have worked.
And nah, Nine Lives is a technique, a technique that auto adapts to any necessity or any weapon, even bare handed, but Berserker Heracles doesn't have it. He also doesn't have the pelt.

Still, Berserker Heracles doesn't have the intelligence to wrestle and strangle myth Heracles unless there is someone to command him, but Myth Heracles doesn't have any way of killing him twelve times, so it just ends in an incon.

Berserker herc does have Nine lives? It's one of his noble phantasms, and while berserker doesnt have the intelligence, he certainly has the skill. He has a very strong mind for combat so it isnt too far to say he'd be able to choke someone out with ease


The pelt is impervious to most weapons, aka manmades typically, and immune to the elements, hercules had to choke out the lion to kill it, as its neck wasnt protected(?)

Either way, chances are The pelt wouldn't work against berserker, considering the feats he's pulled, like snapping Enkidu on sheer willpower alone despite being divine

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

He doesn't. That is only a thing in FGO, but in the same FGO he has no God Hand. Is an obvious balance issue because they wanted the offensive Berserker to have an offensive ability and support NPs were still an unknown, underdeveloped concept. He's no Lancelot, he doesn't keep his skills while mad.

It's neck being protected isn't it. He just cut off oxygen flow, because invulnerability means nothing when Oxygen doesn't get to your brain because your arteries are getting blocked in a choke. No physical damage, just a natural biological reaction.

That's... completely irrelevant. Physical strength isn't getting past invulnerability, unless there's some weakneeses to it, simple as that.

 

[Okorito1]

He doesn't. That is only a thing in FGO, but in the same FGO he has no God Hand. Is an obvious balance issue because they wanted the offensive Berserker to have an offensive ability and support NPs were still an unknown, underdeveloped concept. He's no Lancelot, he doesn't keep his skills while mad.
It's neck being protected isn't it. He just cut off oxygen flow, because invulnerability means nothing when Oxygen doesn't get to your brain because your arteries are getting blocked in a choke. No physical damage, just a natural biological reaction.

That's... completely irrelevant. Physical strength isn't getting past invulnerability, unless there's some weakneeses to it, simple as that.

In fgo it can easily be considered a game feature, as he does have Guts and his bond CE, and he DOES have nine lives, it premiered in Fate/Unlimited Codes, in which he used his Sword-Axe to initiate the ability, being specific nine lives can be executed with almost anything, in stay night he doesn't use it due to not having the motor skills, but in any other case he can use it. And, apparently berserker herc does have the pelt, just not in the same form as myth, God hand has 3 uses, resurection, attack nullification and "immunity against an attack he has experienced previously."


Looking more into it, it's certainly leaning into an incon if he cant harm myth version, and there's no way that berserker herc wouldn't be able to choke out his myth variant, He's a berserker and insane, but not a completely mindless warrior, he has the battle smarts to deflect a sword still, or to dodge weapons

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

In any other case he can... because why? Nothing changes. He doesn't have his skills, he doesn't have returned motor control, his Berserker state isn't any less strong, his sanity isn't any more present, he doesn't have eternal arms mastery or anything similar, literally nothing changes. So what is it, the legitimate answer we already got told and that makes sense , or the change made for the sake of gameplay in a phone game and a fighting game where reviving 12 times would be completely unbalanced and impossible to implement? I go with the former, so let's not act like Berserker having Nine Lives makes any sense.

Yes, he does have the pelt, he gets summoned with it as an Archer and is completely, utterly unrelated to God Hand's. God Hand's invulnerability has literally nothing to do with pelt, that is nothing more than head canon.

He wouldn't be able to because he is a Berserkering beast. He has eye of the mind (false) to not get tripped by feints or shit like that, but he is a dumb sack of meat going purely by instinct. Yes, it is surprisingly pure instinct that doesn't need much intelligence to swat stuff that can hurt you away, is a lot more complicated to think of choking someone you can't pummel, especially when your motor skills are trash, the dude is a master at pankration and you are both physically comparable.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Thing is, Myth Herc should not b getting choked out based on lifting feats but for some reason his lifting strength is only superhuman rather than the 5 quadrillion tons it should be for holding up the sky. Not sure how you can use a feat for his AP but not have it for his Lifting. Profile needs to fixed or do we just not bother since Myth profiles might be deleted?

On topic, Fate GGs with relative ease since the invulnerability comes from a pelt that can get taken off and is only worn over his head, back and shoulders leaving plenty of gaps to still hit Myth.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Kep is taking time since he's obviously busy with other things, but he's in the process of constructing a really extensive blog for the general structure of a lot of main stay myths for the sake of revising myth profiles since we use a lot of real world sizes and etc despite most of these myths being completely incompatible with the real world we use to scale these feats. So really, is hard to say if Herc is even gonna be 6-C when that happens if Kep can finish his blog.

And I imagined the invulnerability affected him as a whole as it barely ever covers him yet he still seems to get the effect.

 

[Okorito1]

Kep is taking time since he's obviously busy with other things, but he's in the process of constructing a really extensive blog for the general structure of a lot of main stay myths for the sake of revising myth profiles since we use a lot of real world sizes and etc despite most of these myths being completely incompatible with the real world we use to scale these feats. So really, is hard to say if Herc is even gonna be 6-C when that happens if Kep can finish his blog.
And I imagined the invulnerability affected him as a whole as it barely ever covers him yet he still seems to get the effect.

The pelt was forged into armor, meaning there are clear gaps, however stuff like rocks wouldnt affect him due to the pelts effect

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I never remember a single instance in the myths of the pelt being forged into armor, twice so when it would make no sense to forge something that is invulnerable. Any sort of statue or drawn depiction I see as well has him more or less just wear it like a cape too.

Of course, is likely those dudes did a big stupid for the sake of artistic license since there was an emphasis on the body, but that leaves the issue of forging invulnerable pelt somehow.

 

[Okorito1]

I never remember a single instance in the myths of the pelt being forged into armor, twice so when it would make no sense to forge something that is invulnerable. Any sort of statue or drawn depiction I see as well has him more or less just wear it like a cape too.
Of course, is likely those dudes did a big stupid for the sake of artistic license since there was an emphasis on the body, but that leaves the issue of forging invulnerable pelt somehow.

Ah armor may be a small stretch as he is litterally wearing the pelt, but that would still leave parts of him to be vulnerable, like the legs, hands or other, in some other myths its considered armor made from the hide of the lion of Cithaeron, forged by gods as a reward

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

No indication that I can remember is ever made about people just going for the nits in between the pelt so I have some doubts about that, but meh.

Anyway, it is just an inconclusive.

 

[Overlord775]

Berserker has A Rank Divinity which works as an Anti-Purge Defences, which Invulnerability is counted as, so he can harm Myth Herc