Has The Great ZZ's post been addressed?

[The_real_cal_howard]

I can't see the fault in that because it's well...flawed. Because they do react to the sun not setting. Which is why it couldn't be time travel, and if it were, it wouldn't be a heinous act.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I do not have an opinion about if the Oracle of Seasons (?) feat is time manipulation or not, but I agree that if Majora's moon was explicitly stated as being capable of destroying the entire planet, then he should be rated as 5-B.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I repeat: The idea is to make the builders of the tower keep working. That's all.

Veran stated that through her power she would make the sun never set. In the previous sentence, mentioned how she can control time. (If you can't see how they're related, my god) The only thing more explicit would be saying "I will make the sun never set through my powers which are time control" (and is what she said with other words, but whatever)

The games plot revolves around time. The feat was made through someone that controls time. The manual of the game only makes mention of time manipulation. And even the Hyrule Historia only mentions Time Manipulation.

More explicit, imposible. And the only reason you see it flawed is because people don't react in a specific way.

I rest my case.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, Lephyr, keep your tone in check please. Othervise the situation is going to severely deteriorate.

That said, I do think that you make some good points, but you need to treat Howard with better respect.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Will do if I have more to add, Ant. I appologize.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Well, I do not have an opinion about if the Oracle of Seasons (?) feat is time manipulation or not, but I agree that if Majora's moon was explicitly stated as being capable of destroying the entire planet, then he should be rated as 5-B.

Should he simply be straight up 5-B or "At least High 6-A, likely 5-B"? As I mentioned before, the High 6-A calc is essentially a lowball that only accounts for the destruction of Termina itself (or at least the parts you can travel to), but I'm not sure if it's better to have it or not.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

No. The idea is to make the builders of the tower keep working without sleep. The builders would keep working even if Veran wasn't there. Ambi's Tower exists in the present, hencewhy it has a name that isn't the Black Tower. Veran needs the builders to experience sorrow. Which she wouldn't be able to do if she did what you're implying and time travelled, which btw, the way you're making it sound how she did it is as silly as "Dark Nebula's attack was an illusion" because it's impractical. Time Stop, you would've had a case. But time stop of the earth would keep the plant life from growing, and once again, the tree is an integral part of the game. For example, say Aganhim went back in time to when the old man was a kid to do the same feat, and we assumed he stopped time, then went back to the future and Sahasralha is still there

TL;DR. All of the time reasoning directly cross with integral parts of the game. Ambi gets turned into a tyrant, making the exposition heavy NPC's upset that they've been working nonstop, which wouldn't be possible with time travel as they'd get sleep and Ambi's Tower would continue as planned. Maku Tree exists, throwing off time travel.

For the record, I have no quarrel with you, and if this were a different subject, I feel like we'd probably be on the same side of arguments.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, personally I think that if there is an explicit statement that the entire world was going to be destroyed, not just Termina, then it should probably be a 5-B feat.

 

[X_Heart_of_Steel_x]

Well, Termina is a parallel (and seemingly smaller) world separated from Hyrule. Unless there has been new information released on the subject.

Also, wouldn't the energy behind Majora's feat of ripping the moon from the sky be his Attack Potency? Just because he ripped the moon from the sky doesn't necessarily mean his other attacks are Planet level. It's just cause and effect if the moon destroys the "world" of Termina.

Plus, it took three days for the moon to even get to the planet, not something he can just do in a normal battle.

Apologies if any of my LoZ knowledge is outdated. Haven't played the games for a while.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

snip

As I stated before, the moon only took three days to reach the planet because Majora was not actively pulling it towards the world with all its power. In any instance in which Skull Kid gets irritated (or near the end where Majora just says "screw it" and possesses the moon), the moon exponentially speeds up.

Not to mention, all of this (possession of the moon, the moon slamming into the planet, Majora tanking the destruction of the world, Majora creating a realm inside the moon, the moon being held together) is done under the entities' own power. The game makes it pretty clear that the only reason Majora didn't just instantly end the world or kill Link was that it simply didn't care enough and didn't want to cut its fun short.

 

[X_Heart_of_Steel_x]

That makes sense to me then. I'm all for a 5-B Majora.

 

[LordXcano]

@Cal

Except in the video what she says is "Now with my powers the flow of time is yours to command. For you I shall create a day that never ends."

She's clearly talking about stopping the flow of time here.

I understand your points about how the plants shouldn't be able to grow and all that stuff, but you could use the same argument to prove DIO is just moving really fast because otherwise every object would be effectively indestructible to him. Or that Bart Simpson shouldn't be able to see in this scene because light would be standing still and all that. Or so on and so forth.

The fact they can build the tower at all and breathe and just move in general shows that not everything is stopped. People can still change and develop and so can the landscape (or else they wouldn't be able to gather materials). I don't see any reason why the tree can't just grow as well. All it's doing is moving, which is clearly still possible.

 

[ThePerpetual]

Sorry for not getting back to this sooner... been busy and such.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Fine. I'm willing to swallow my pride and take the l on this one.

 

[Antvasima]

I also agree with LordXcano about the time stopping.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I however, would like to talk more about the Endless Night though

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I did some digging, and yes. The night is not just an effect of the storm.

So...that foul rain and endless night were indeed elements of a curse brought on us by Ganon! He must intend to cast this land into pure darkness for all time...
	~ King of Red Lions​

The storm and the night were two different things. Also, another time manipulation song doesn't affect the endless night, signifying that it's permanent until Link stops it later.

 

[LordXcano]

Alright, then that's useable. Same calc as above since the feats are identical.

 

[DocAnimeTheory]

What is the reason the Triforce doesn't have Low 2-C or 2-C attack potency? It is an "omnipotent" wish granted by 2-C goddesses.

 

[Dark649]

Because it would have affected more than the destruction of the planet without them and there are no menzions nor feats of this caliber.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Now the Endless Night I can definitively see as Planet Rotation-stopping. So, Moon Level base Ganondorf. That's nice. Though I have to ask, would it apply also to Ocarina Ganondorf and the twilight one? Ocarina I can see since... Is literally the same dude, lol. But Twilight I genuinely don't know. Is the same dude, but from the past, so the future-feats don't necessarily apply to him, since he never did them. Specially when he received the ToP during his execution. Just asking, really.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

By the way, Lephyr. I'd like to apologize. I was kind of a stubborn dick to you.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I apologize too, since I was disrespectful.

 

[DocAnimeTheory]

Because it would have affected more than the destruction of the planet without them and there are no menzions nor feats of this caliber.

But that's just because of the specifics of the wish. The triforce derives it's power from the Golden Goddesses who are at least 2-C.

If Ganon say wished to destroy the universe it would be within the power of the Triforce to do so.

I'm evantually going to make a Zelda upgrade thread. There are a number of possibly Universe to Multi Universe level feats.

 

[Lina_Shields]

While you guys continue talking about the power-scaling in general here, does anyone here mind if I take a closer look at Faron's flooding feat?

Continent level for a flood seems rather impressive. Wonder who it scales to...

 

[Antvasima]

You can do so if you wish.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Now, it seems that from what I have read in the comments in LordX's calc, it seems that Nayru's planet rotation feat is considered to be time manipulation instead of an actual feat. It would be appreciated if

However, if it was actually time manipulation on Nayru's part, everything on Earth except Nayru would have stopped moving...

Anyways, if we are going to accept Nayru's planet rotation feat, we need to make an explanation for the context of the feat, and how said feat is not considered mere time stop. This is because well, we don't really see a planet being stopped rotating directly from that game...

 

[DocAnimeTheory]

Link can change the position of the sun in the sky using the Song of Passing in Wind Waker, and the Sun Song in OoT.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Just to clarify, the Sun's song just changes the time from night to day, correct? Considering that the game itself is literally called Ocarina of Time, it's basically time manipulation (speeding up time) more than anything.

 

[DocAnimeTheory]

The inscription on the royal family tomb where you get the Sun Song reads,

"The rising sun will eventually set. A newborn's life will fade. From sun to moon, moon to sun... Give peaceful rest to the living dead."

So it seems the song actually causes the Sun to "set". The game is called Ocarina of Time due to that Link travels through time at the Temple of Time.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Hmmm, is called ocarina of time because of... The ocarina of time. xD The key to open the door of time so you can get the key to the sacred realm (the master sword).

Edit: About the Sun Song, even if it results being anything more than time manipulation (doubt it), it wouldn't be combat applicable and/or a massive outlier, since Link learns it as a child, and Ganondorf without trying (before having the ToP) knocked him onto the ground.

 

[LordXcano]

@Lina We already discussed the time manip in this thread and such. Me/Cal/Lephyr all agreed Nayru did it through time manipulation, as she said she would manipulate the flow of time to allow work on the tower to continue without end.

However it was pointed out that Ganondorf has an identical feat, this one not being time manipulation. So we (I think) decided to use that instead.

 

[Lina_Shields]

@LordX: So for the Ganondorf's Endless Night feat, my understanding of the feat is that Ganondorf just locks the Earth from rotating around (no mention that the Earth stopped rotating completely around the sun), thus the low end of the calc would be used, correct?

Moon level Wind Waker Link then?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@Lina

And Adult Link from Ocarina, as well as A Link to the Past Link. Is the same Ganondorf/Ganon in all three timelines. The problem comes if Twilight is applicable for having it, since he never did a similar feat (that I remember, at least). The Ganondorf from the future of Ocarina likes too much his Endless Night xD (doing it in Castle Town). But Twilight-Gdorf just recieved his ToP when being sent to the twilight, that's why I genuinely don't know if the feat applies to him too.

 

[DocAnimeTheory]

Hmmm, is called ocarina of time because of... The ocarina of time. xD The key to open the door of time so you can get the key to the sacred realm (the master sword).
Edit: About the Sun Song, even if it results being anything more than time manipulation (doubt it), it wouldn't be combat applicable and/or a massive outlier, since Link learns it as a child, and Ganondorf without trying (before having the ToP) knocked him onto the ground.

Or maybe Ganon should be scaled to Link for beating him... Star level would not be an outlier as there are a number of Moon to Planet level feats, and the Three Golden Goddesses are at least Multi Universe level.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

The gap between moon and star level is of x19,990.92

Yeah, no.

Young Link had problems with King Dodongo, a lizard that tanks small town level explosions.

There are 2 feats in Zelda that are close to Moon Level, being Continent and Multi-Continent Level; 1 Moon feat; and 2 Planet Level feats.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

"- Characters should not scale to full Triforce wielders unless the full Triforce is actually used.

Not debunked. The full Triforce is a one-use wish granter, so unless the wielder asked for a wish during the fight, it's not been used and therefore nobody scales. For example, ALTTP Link won't scale to the full Triforce because Ganon never used it during their fight (it was too far away)."

I've forgotten about that. I support this, though I would love to see what do you guys think. Is important since ALttP-Link and Ganon are scaled to the full triforce.

 

[DocAnimeTheory]

The gap between moon and star level is of x19,990.92
Yeah, no.

Young Link had problems with King Dodongo, a lizard that tanks small town level explosions.

There are 2 feats in Zelda that are close to Moon Level, being Continent and Multi-Continent Level; 1 Moon feat; and 2 Planet Level feats.

It's called game mechanics..

Usually in fictions the next "big feat" after planet level is star level.

 

[Lina_Shields]

What Lephyr said.

Considering that the maximum AP that Ganondorf showed was stopping the rotation of Earth, which lands him at Moon level, we are not having Link upgraded any higher than that unless we see/calculate a higher feat.

Also noting that if the Sun's song actually rotates the Earth from night to day within a couple seconds, everyone on Hyrule would have noticed the Earth rotating stupidly faster than before (except that no one seems to notice the day/night cycle changing as the Sun's song is being played)?

Clearly time manipulation.

Now, about that Faron flooding the Faron Province, here is the video of the feat. Said feat happens around 45:24


Because Faron drains the water


The original calc assumes from this map below, that the 86 pixel stretch of the Sand Sea is about 404.734km. From the picture, this means that the tree is

• The tree is 59.17px = 278.466 km ??
• The diameter of the forest is 187px = 880.061 km

Here is the original calc for Faron's flooding feat btw.

I will expand more on this later, although it would be preferable if someone could give thoughts about the fact that the [168px*86px] is legit or not.