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Happy Cirno Day - Cirno vs Travis Touchdown [Completed]

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Base Cirno and 8-B+ NMH1 Travis are being used.
Travis has all of his NMH1 beam katanas and the Schpeltiger on hand.
Fight begins 30 meters apart outside of the No More Heroes motel.
Speed Equal

⑨ (49 tons): 3 (Darkwolf, Quib, Mario)
🍒 (81 tons):
Inconclusive: 7 (Mad Dog, Ike, Glaceon, Harith, Armor, Dragonite, Spilxon)
Battle Theme
 
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If this isn't a stomp it's a decisive win for Cirno. Travis might be stronger (heresy, i know) but Cirno has hax he doesn't resist (Absolute Zero and this thing) while also resisting what little he has. She has better regen (High-Mid vs Low-Mid), better mobility via flight, and has high enough danmaku where Travis isn't getting enough breathing room to easily recharge whenever his beam katanas run outta juice. Also type 4 immortality beats type 2 any day of the week.
 
Honestly, while I agree that this is a baka W, it isn't that huge of a stomp. Travis definitely has a lot of skills that can at least counter Cirno's danmaku (which isn't as well-thought out or accurate as other 2hu danmaku to begin with; It's more like firing at will and hoping you hit the other guy) like acrobatics, IR, precog, attack reflection, and time manipulation, so he's not getting BTFO'd right outta the gate. Additionally, even with spirit hax, Cirno isn't obliterating his soul and mind in one go, as it's more like a snowballing effect where attacks in Touhou gradually damage the spirit as much as they damage the body (a bit like Undertale, if that comparison makes sense), so while it's a pretty big advantage, it's not an instant win.

Also, to be completely fair, Travis can probably incap Cirno; She's pretty weak to fire, to the point where she'll be incapacitated after long periods of exposure to heat, so Travis' fire hax could probably knock her out long enough for a W. The problem is that Cirno can just... fly away from all of Travis' melee attacks, and her magic circle and skill in dodging danmaku means that actually hitting her at a range is nigh-impossible.

TL;DR: Travis can last a good while via better skill across the board, but Cirno's abilities are better tailored to wearing him down in the long run while Travis can't do much to even hit her.
 
All of Travis' attacks a heat are heat-based given his weapon of choice, he can probably weave through her Danmaku pretty easily given his abilities (and that the main challenge of dodging Danmaku is just being capable of factoring in everything that's threatening you at once, which means instinctive reactions are a great counter to it given he can't really be blindsided) and when up close he'll straight up slow down time on a whim just by dodging stuff (more than countering Cirno's circle thing, if that even applies to Travis).

Flight is an issue (if she's even smart enough to abuse it) but he can jump real high and I don't think being able to dodge slow patterns of projectiles really translates to being able to avoid melee attacks much or at all, and with the fact that his weapon can one-shot people comparable to him through sheer heat one good hit should seal the deal, if she's vulnerable to fire (There aren't any details to the regen, also, so even if it doesn't take her out Travis will just keep on tearing her apart until it's too much for her to heal). While this isn't something I think he'd be too eager to resort to, if she sets up a completely hopeless situation for him (He has ESP and shit which might clue him in if something is really dangerous) Travis can just kinda run away and try to get the fight going again in a fairer environment. Allegedly Cirno "is stupid and naive and can get discouraged easily" so even he should have more patience than that. Hell, he's got great stealth skills in the sequel, if he's desperate he might just be able to use that.

This is secondary but if he's forced to play the ranged game he can reflect attacks at Cirno really fast, it's not a great situation for him but he's not hopeless. Travis also just doesn't need to recharge in this key, he has infinite battery. Additionally, while they're not immediately going to come out he does have his Dark Side modes, which can greatly amp his speed, grant him much more consistent projectiles, huge shockwaves and so on, if he's really on the backfoot he's gonna use 'em.
 
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Travis definitely has a lot of skills that can at least counter Cirno's danmaku like acrobatics, IR, precog, attack reflection, and time manipulation,
and when up close he'll straight up slow down time on a whim just by dodging stuff
You guys do know Cirno resist time slow, right?
Flight is an issue (if she's even smart enough to abuse it) but he can jump real high
That just leaves him stuck in one place. His acrobatics aren't good enough to dodge mid-air. As for the fligh thing: Every fight in Touhou takes place in the air. Technically her using it is in character, but she's never fough a ground locked opponent.
While this isn't something I think he'd be too eager to resort to, if she sets up a completely hopeless situation for him (He has ESP and shit which might clue him in if something is really dangerous) Travis can just kinda run away and try to get the fight going again in a fairer environment. Allegedly Cirno "is stupid and naive and can get discouraged easily" so even he should have more patience than that. Hell, he's got great stealth skills in the sequel, if he's desperate he might just be able to use that.
Problem: Cirno has a huge movement speed advantage. I don't know if you know this, but speed equalisation is specifically tied to combat speed, with all others being the same relative to it. Cirno has two ends, both of which scale movement and combat speed to eachother. Travis, however, has a huge gap between the two (Hypersonic+ to Subsonic). He's not running anywhere.
This is secondary but if he's forced to play the ranged game he can reflect attacks at Cirno really fast, it's not a great situation for him but he's not hopeless. Travis also just doesn't need to recharge in this key, he has infinite battery. Additionally, while they're not immediately going to come out he does have his Dark Side modes, which can greatly amp his speed, grant him much more consistent projectiles, huge shockwaves and so on, if he's really on the backfoot he's gonna use 'em.
Fair.
 
I'll reply to this later. But Cirno's time hax resistance doesn't apply to her projectiles, so Travis' time hax are still useful.

I do wanna bring up that Cirno has outlasted high tiers attempting to kill her (8-B vs 2-C lmao) while specifically abusing heat-based danmaku (such as artificial suns with their own gravity).
 
That just leaves him stuck in one place. His acrobatics aren't good enough to dodge mid-air. As for the fligh thing: Every fight in Touhou takes place in the air. Technically her using it is in character, but she's never fough a ground locked opponent.
I am aware of this but it depends how high she chooses to fly, if she's just two meters above the air, it isn't too much of a factor. Plus, the higher she hovers the less of a threat she is given her range is relatively low.
Problem: Cirno has a huge movement speed advantage. I don't know if you know this, but speed equalisation is specifically tied to combat speed, with all others being the same relative to it. Cirno has two ends, both of which scale movement and combat speed to eachother. Travis, however, has a huge gap between the two (Hypersonic+ to Subsonic). He's not running anywhere.
He can teleport if needed, I guess, dunno if that's super in character. His speed amps also extend to his movement speed too.
I'll reply to this later. But Cirno's time hax resistance doesn't apply to her projectiles, so Travis' time hax are still useful.
I would like to ask actually, why is assumed that the circle works on everything? The scan just says it works on projectiles and even mentions a different effect it has on people who come close.
I do wanna bring up that Cirno has outlasted high tiers attempting to kill her (8-B vs 2-C lmao) while specifically abusing heat-based danmaku (such as artificial suns with their own gravity).
That doesn't really make sense. Either she has 2-C durability (or at least resistance to fire), or that doesn't really work.
One more thing: All of Cirno's danmaku is implied to be thought-based. I don't know if that's particularly relevant here but I wanted to mention it because it's stupid.
I mean, that's what I'd assume, she can't really be chucking them all by hand.
 
1. The latest game in the series does actually showcase spell card users using their time slow on living beings, even if it wasn't showcased in 18.5. I can provide scans later.

2. When I say "outlasted", I mean she was able to not get hit for an extended period of time against an opponent who spams danmaku as hot as the sun and could easily oneshot Cirno. She doesn't scale in AP/heat resistance at all.
 
1. The latest game in the series does actually showcase spell card users using their time slow on living beings, even if it wasn't showcased in 18.5. I can provide scans later.
Lucky bastards, getting the scans right as you need 'em
2. When I say "outlasted", I mean she was able to not get hit for an extended period of time against an opponent who spams danmaku as hot as the sun and could easily oneshot Cirno. She doesn't scale in AP/heat resistance at all.
I mean, fair enough, but that's just "generic" danmaku dodging, heat doesn't play a role.
 
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1. I knew about it for a while but didn't add it because it also entails semi-passive spirit absorption/soul destruction/paralysis/damage boost

2. I mean if she can survive all of that, what stops her from just dodging Travis' attacks? The guy's skilled for sure, but how good is he at accurately hitting shots against people who can dodge danmaku or even weather?
 
1. I knew about it for a while but didn't add it because it also entails semi-passive spirit absorption/soul destruction/paralysis/damage boost
that sounds like it's fairly relevant in a match
2. I mean if she can survive all of that, what stops her from just dodging Travis' attacks? The guy's skilled for sure, but how good is he at accurately hitting shots against people who can dodge danmaku or even weather?
Shots, nothing really, if he gets up close I wouldn't really value her odds though, depending on how strong the slowdown is. And if he's got a speed amp going, she's straight-up toast if he gets in. It's not even a skill thing I just don't think dodging danmaku and dodging attacks in melee are really the same skillset
 
1. Yeah but I really don't feel like adding another universal hax thing to every profile. Not until the big revisions come around, anyways.

2. Sure, but Cirno can fly, and I'm not sure if Travis can actually reliably maneuver in midair even if he could jump to that height. I don't think he'll have many opportunities to actually use his CQC advantage. Also, the time slow isn't too major (like barely 50% speed just by eyeballing it), but even a 2x advantage is pretty huge. How big are Travis' speed amps?
 
Sure, but Cirno can fly, and I'm not sure if Travis can actually reliably maneuver in midair even if he could jump to that height.
Depends on the height. If it's like 3 meters it's not an issue, if it's 30 it is but then she also can't threaten him cause her range is only tens of meters. There's definitely a sweet-spot where it's really hard to counter but Cirno doesn't exactly seem like a tactician to me
Also, the time slow isn't too major (like barely 50% speed just by eyeballing it), but even a 2x advantage is pretty huge.
It definitely is more than that. Compare the axe guys' windup animation slowed down and at full speed. Slowed down it takes 40-ish frames for the swing to start, at full speed (16:35) it's 7 frames.
How big are Travis' speed amps?
Explicitly fast enough for them to be unable to react to it
 
1. Cirno's range is a huge lowball because it's comparing thought-based magic attacks to physically thrown weapons (and not even their max range, just the range at which they can be thrown accurately). In any case, Cirno is at least smart enough to know that heat based attacks are enough to put her down and she's usually willing to get the hell out of dodge in cases like that.

2. I was talking about Cirno's time slow lol

3. Alright then, that's a pretty big deal.

4. It varies. Can be a couple feet, tens of feet, above skyscrapers, above the clouds, or in space. There's no one uniform height.
 
1. Cirno's range is a huge lowball because it's comparing thought-based magic attacks to physically thrown weapons (and not even their max range, just the range at which they can be thrown accurately).
I mean I wouldn't really say any of that inherently implies superior range
In any case, Cirno is at least smart enough to know that heat based attacks are enough to put her down and she's usually willing to get the hell out of dodge in cases like that.
I mean the beam katana is just a beam of energy, it doesn't shine on fire or anything.
2. I was talking about Cirno's time slow lol
Ah
3. Alright then, that's a pretty big deal.
Yeah I think it's his main wincon here
 
I mean I wouldn't really say any of that inherently implies superior range
Hitting a target accurately gets way harder the further away you are, so I think it's safe to assume that most people can throw shit a lot farther than they can throw it accurately. It's like comparing how far someone can throw a baseball vs how far someone can throw a baseball and get a strike at the same time.

I mean the beam katana is just a beam of energy, it doesn't shine on fire or anything.
Wouldn't Travis be more likely to open with his fireballs anyways? Idk if he'd really go straight for melee at a range of 30 meters against someone who can fly (and frequently does so).

Also, here's the time slow thing I mentioned earlier. Works on both enemies and projectiles and absorbs their spirit/paralyzes one's soul but don't worry about that for now

also man i wish i could bring up cirno's passive cold aura since that'd probably help a lot but it isn't on the profile, rip
 
Wouldn't Travis be more likely to open with his fireballs anyways? Idk if he'd really go straight for melee at a range of 30 meters against someone who can fly (and frequently does so).
Melee is basically always his bread and butter even at range, if necessary he'll bust out other stuff but that's his thing.
Also, here's the time slow thing I mentioned earlier. Works on both enemies and projectiles
Alright, how much do they slow down, you said by 50%-ish?
 
Melee is basically always his bread and butter even at range, if necessary he'll bust out other stuff but that's his thing.
He's gonna have to deal with danmaku throughout that entire 30-meter sprint, which doesn't make his odds of getting in close super likely imo. Also consider that he's not gonna be moving in a straight line, given that he's gonna have to dodge the entire time. If it's alright, I also wanna bring up Cirno's passive cold aura, which probably won't fuck Travis up too bad but is just one more thing he's gonna have to deal with.

Personally I just find it more likely that Cirno's danmaku overwhelms Travis and lets Cirno snowball from there (something something spiritual damage) before he can land a solid hit. Not like he's totally screwed, I just think Cirno takes it more often than not.

Alright, how much do they slow down, you said by 50%-ish?
Yyyyyyes? It's kinda hard to tell lmao
 
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