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Happy Cirno Day - Cirno vs Travis Touchdown [Completed]

He's gonna have to deal with danmaku throughout that entire 30-meter sprint, which doesn't make his odds of getting in close super likely imo. Also consider that he's not gonna be moving in a straight line, given that he's gonna have to dodge the entire time.
Maybe, but if push really comes to shove he can pop the amp and at that point I don't really value Cirno's chances.
Personally I just find it more likely that Cirno's danmaku overwhelms Travis and lets Cirno snowball from there (something something spiritual damage) before he can land a solid hit. Not like he's totally screwed, I just think Cirno takes it more often than not.
See, Travis is really good at blocking attacks from multiple directions at once, even ones much faster and smaller than Cirno's danmaku, I don't really see shots making it through his guard with any degree of reliability.
Yyyyyyes? It's kinda hard to tell lmao
I have no clue what I'm supposed to be looking at
 
Maybe, but if push really comes to shove he can pop the amp and at that point I don't really value Cirno's chances.
Fair and true, but I do have a question after looking at Travis' profile more in depth. Are his Dark Side amps something he can pick and choose at will, or are they luck based? It seems to be the latter at a glance.

See, Travis is really good at blocking attacks from multiple directions at once, even ones much faster and smaller than Cirno's danmaku, I don't really see shots making it through his guard with any degree of reliability.
What the hell is going on in these gifs lmao

I have no clue what I'm supposed to be looking at
How do you think I feel trying to index this sort of thing across 30+ games
 
Fair and true, but I do have a question after looking at Travis' profile more in depth. Are his Dark Side amps something he can pick and choose at will, or are they luck based? It seems to be the latter at a glance.
The roulette is probably a gameplay thing? It's never really explained, but in the 3rd game there are abilities tied to it (the mechs) that Travis has been shown to be able to use at will so he can probably do them at will. Probably.
What the hell is going on in these gifs lmao
Multiple people at firing at Travis with automatic guns from several different directions, he's blocking everything
 
The roulette is probably a gameplay thing? It's never really explained, but in the 3rd game there are abilities tied to it (the mechs) that Travis has been shown to be able to use at will so he can probably do them at will. Probably.
That's probably fine, then? not too sure tbh

Multiple people at firing at Travis with automatic guns from several different directions, he's blocking everything
I'd argue that omnidirectional danmaku is a lot harder to block than gunfire from one or two people, but this is pretty damn good regardless. Hence why I think Travis can last a while, but not forever.
 
That's probably fine, then? not too sure tbh
Yeah that's how i feel too
I'd argue that omnidirectional danmaku is a lot harder to block than gunfire from one or two people, but this is pretty damn good regardless. Hence why I think Travis can last a while, but not forever.
Eh, I disagree. Bullets are much smaller to the point that you need to be absolutely pin-point and they're even faster than sound so he can't even hear them. Danmaku seems way more overwhelming but it's ultimately much slower, bigger projectiles that travel in what are usually mostly predictable patterns, with 99% of them never actually being a threat since they go in all directions- I understand that them having safe spots is kind of a self-imposed limitation in Touhou but even then I don't think that wouldn't mean there'd be no gaps between. Even if that's not the case he can probably just hack his way through them, given that he can just bat energy stuff away at will.
 
I mean I wouldn't say omnidirectional bullets are that big of a deal in that regard. By definition, they aren't all directed towards Travis. That being said, it is difficult for him to approach from the sides since well....
 
Eh, I disagree. Bullets are much smaller to the point that you need to be absolutely pin-point and they're even faster than sound so he can't even hear them. Danmaku seems way more overwhelming but it's ultimately much slower, bigger projectiles that travel in what are usually mostly predictable patterns, with 99% of them never actually being a threat since they go in all directions- I understand that them having safe spots is kind of a self-imposed limitation in Touhou but even then I don't think that wouldn't mean there'd be no gaps between. Even if that's not the case he can probably just hack his way through them, given that he can just bat energy stuff away at will.
Danmaku isn't really that slow in Touhou, it's mostly like that for the sake of gameplay; A fair number of attacks are light speed at minimum but are still visually slow. Also, I wouldn't really argue that Travis not hearing bullets moving is a big deal, considering uh. gunshots themselves are really fucking loud.

In any case, Cirno has a few spell cards that are a lot harder to predict than gunfire, such as those that are just randomly exploding shards of ice, or danmaku that moves at random to the point where Cirno herself, as well as Marisa (who you probably know by now is crazy skilled), have no idea what'll happen.
 
Danmaku isn't really that slow in Touhou, it's mostly like that for the sake of gameplay; A fair number of attacks are light speed at minimum but are still visually slow.
Fair enough, but I meant comparatively slow, which is what matters with speed equal.
Also, I wouldn't really argue that Travis not hearing bullets moving is a big deal, considering uh. gunshots themselves are really fucking loud.
Yeah but they also move faster than sound, you can't react to the noise no matter how fast you are since they'll reach you before it.
In any case, Cirno has a few spell cards that are a lot harder to predict than gunfire, such as those that are just randomly exploding shards of ice, or danmaku that moves at random to the point where Cirno herself, as well as Marisa (who you probably know by now is crazy skilled), have no idea what'll happen.
That is fair (although his ESP/Precog might counter it, I say might because it's a touch unreliable) but those come after she's taken a good chunk of damage, right? It's unlikely she'll pull out all the stops if Travis can't seem to get close to her at all, and if he does she's dead.
 
That is fair (although his ESP/Precog might counter it, I say might because it's a touch unreliable) but those come after she's taken a good chunk of damage, right? It's unlikely she'll pull out all the stops if Travis can't seem to get close to her at all, and if he does she's dead.
Ehhh not really, Minus K is the second attack she uses in one of the fighting game routes, and Freeze Sign "Perfect Freeze" is her signature technique she uses in nearly every single appearance. I think it's fair to assume that she'd lead with the latter.

It's worth noting that spell card users will usually switch to their next card if their target survives the first one for long enough, so it's not like she has to take any damage. Losses via time-out are possible in canon because of this.
 
Honestly this seems fairly easy to avoid, it's all roughly coming from one direction unless Cirno gets up close enough and if she does that's a big issue for her, and if Travis can cut through automatic gunfire (or literally snatch dozens of bullets out of the air in a later key) he can probably do the same with much bigger energy attacks. Being able to reflect one of the big clumps before they explode feels like it'd be a problem for Cirno actually
The gimmick seems like it actually works against her here, Travis can just chop away at any bullet close enough to threaten him when they're not moving and at that point the threat of the pattern is significantly lessened.

Honestly I'd like to give my take on this fight, since the discussion's gone on enough. Both of them can pretty reliably wall out the other without really having an immediate wincon, with Travis being able to just bat away all projectiles and having more than enough precog/IR to remain unhurt, while Cirno just has the advantage of range. Cirno has the advantage of range and flight, and additionally is more likely to bust out her wincons, but they're less reliable than Travis'. Travis' is less likely to immediately pull off his own, but once he does they're more likely to work, though Cirno's flight does make things very difficult for him on the offensive side.

All things said I can see either winning tbh, are you willing to agree to an incon?
 
Honestly this seems fairly easy to avoid, it's all roughly coming from one direction unless Cirno gets up close enough and if she does that's a big issue for her, and if Travis can cut through automatic gunfire (or literally snatch dozens of bullets out of the air in a later key) he can probably do the same with much bigger energy attacks. Being able to reflect one of the big clumps before they explode feels like it'd be a problem for Cirno actually
The clumps are sub-absolute zero until they explode so that's probably a bad idea on Travis' part.

The gimmick seems like it actually works against her here, Travis can just chop away at any bullet close enough to threaten him when they're not moving and at that point the threat of the pattern is significantly lessened.
She still fires occasional danmaku while the first volley is frozen, so I'd think Travis would be more likely to focus on that rather than something that isn't an immediate threat.

Honestly I'd like to give my take on this fight, since the discussion's gone on enough. Both of them can pretty reliably wall out the other without really having an immediate wincon, with Travis being able to just bat away all projectiles and having more than enough precog/IR to remain unhurt, while Cirno just has the advantage of range. Cirno has the advantage of range and flight, and additionally is more likely to bust out her wincons, but they're less reliable than Travis'. Travis' is less likely to immediately pull off his own, but once he does they're more likely to work, though Cirno's flight does make things very difficult for him on the offensive side.

All things said I can see either winning tbh, are you willing to agree to an incon?
Honestly? Yeah, I think an incon is probably fine. It's definitely not as decisive as I originally thought.

Thanks for a fun debate though, I'm glad Touhou's wacky game mechanics haven't completely killed interesting discussions yet.
 
Thanks for what may very well be the last fair and enjoyable Touhou debate before the revisions make everything a gigastomp.
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