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Handling Dragon Ball Super's Cosmology and Zen'o
- Thread starter Dragonmasterxyz
- Start date
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- Tags
- dragon ball multiverse zen'ō
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Not gonna lie, I get tired of seeing it be brought up so often too (the size of the universe). If we do it for this, we'd have to do it for every universe traveller.
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^ Agreed.
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- Thread starter
- #44
I agree with what Cal said.
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So which ones are we using?
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I'd like either a calc evaluation on the OBD posts to be made.
Or someone makes their own calcs/blogs of the OBD calcs crediting them. That way we can decide if we agree on them and have a discussion before implementing such drastic upgrades.
Or someone makes their own calcs/blogs of the OBD calcs crediting them. That way we can decide if we agree on them and have a discussion before implementing such drastic upgrades.
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Of course, if a speed calc involves that the whole universe's size and if it only uses the 93 billion light year value, then we can infer that the actual speed for the feat is much greater than the calc resultThe real cal howard said:
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Maybe we could simply gradually mention "(This is an extremely low estimate, given that the observable universe is much smaller than the real one)" or somesuch, in these profiles, as we discover them?
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"At least ____ times FTL, most likely far higher given that the calc used the observable universe, which is much smaller than the real one." seems fine to add to the profiles.
Of course this won't be a revision, just a minor thing to add to profiles like this when/if we come across them.
Characters with universe crossing feats where their universe has a confirmed size however, like say DC, wouldn't need this however.
Of course this won't be a revision, just a minor thing to add to profiles like this when/if we come across them.
Characters with universe crossing feats where their universe has a confirmed size however, like say DC, wouldn't need this however.
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I know this is staff but I feel a few things need to be addressed so I just wanna say this one thing.
I do agree that the Unvierses are all conected in the timeline in some way, but parts of them, like kaioshin realm, other world which is just as large as the living universe, etc are actual seperate spaces that normally can't be traverssed, except by gods/teleportaion. And ROSAT has a seperate timeline/flow of time 100% for sure. Thats just in U7. So while the physical mortal univeres are likely connected, they are sperated by diffrent space, and it is shown other realms have diffrent space and time to, but they all share in being duplicated is all when a tiemline is formed, almost like the timelines make a small multiverse. So I agree we can use the low balled distances from living universe to living universe for travel, but I disagree that destroying the full 12 macrocausms is only equal to 1 space time continumm for reasons mentioned above, of obvious multiple diffrent continums/spaces. Just my two cents on it.
I do agree that the Unvierses are all conected in the timeline in some way, but parts of them, like kaioshin realm, other world which is just as large as the living universe, etc are actual seperate spaces that normally can't be traverssed, except by gods/teleportaion. And ROSAT has a seperate timeline/flow of time 100% for sure. Thats just in U7. So while the physical mortal univeres are likely connected, they are sperated by diffrent space, and it is shown other realms have diffrent space and time to, but they all share in being duplicated is all when a tiemline is formed, almost like the timelines make a small multiverse. So I agree we can use the low balled distances from living universe to living universe for travel, but I disagree that destroying the full 12 macrocausms is only equal to 1 space time continumm for reasons mentioned above, of obvious multiple diffrent continums/spaces. Just my two cents on it.
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Mmm, you actually do bring up good points on it, and Zeno would have destroyed the afterlife in the future.
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Well if the afterlife and/or Kaioshin is treated as a separate universe outside of Universe 7, then I am fine with Zen'ō staying 2-C then. Perhaps no "At least" though.
This still wouldn't indicate the 12 universes are separate however. So I think the speed upgrade would still be applicable.
This still wouldn't indicate the 12 universes are separate however. So I think the speed upgrade would still be applicable.
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I think it is that all the 12 Universes are within the same timeline, but the Afterlifes are separate universe sized realms tied to each universe
At least, this is how it is with Universe 7, assuming old Daizeenshu map is still canon.
At least, this is how it is with Universe 7, assuming old Daizeenshu map is still canon.
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Well, I don't think that the Kaioshin Realm is separate, but it just doesn't make sense for the Afterlife to just be a place you can reach by flying.
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Please pardon my intrusion here as this is Staff Only. I was talking with Ryukuma about this and he seems its alright for me to post my points here so the staff can discuss it amogst themselves.
Now, regarding the afterlife and kaisohin realm being separate space-time from the mortal universe, there are some points I have that seem to point that idea into the opposite direction:
1. The most common point is Goku and Beerus's shockwaves they created during their battle being able to reach both realms (well the kaioshin realm anyway). Now, from what I know, wouldnt Beerus and Goku's fighting somewhat prove that they are connected to the mortal universe? Afterall, the shockwaves released by their battle were even able to transverse into the kaioshin realm and if they were totally separate, then the shockwaves happening on a level such as the mortal universe would be impossible to go into separate space-times. Furthermore, if Goku and Beerus were able to make shockwaves at that magnitude, then I'd say its safe to assume that if Beerus were to ever go up against someone like Champa, then the same shockwaves, if not, stronger ones would appear and they are only stated by Whis/Vados to be able to destroy both U7 and U6. The threat of their fighting, which is logically far more dangerous than Beerus holding back against Goku, is never portrayed as being able to reach spaces such as the Kaioshin realm. In addition to this, If their shockwaves were able to transverse space-time, then why has something like the ROSAT room, a pocket dimension that is also a separate space-time, never hinted to be destroyed as well? It shouldnt make any sense that a realm near the size of a whole universe can be threatend by Goku and Beerus's clash but not a realm thats planet sized at best and far closer to the range of their battling.
2. IIRC, hasnt Goku been consistently shown to be able to sense the KI signatures of beings like Supreme Kai and King Kai even from the mortal universe? That should be completely impossible if the Kaioshin Realm and Otherworld were separate realms. And before anyone says "Goku's energy sensing can go beyond space-time", this shouldnt be correct. After all, he wasnt able to sense Gotenks and Buu fighting in the ROSAT, another separate space-time. In addition, I seem to remember Goku once having trouble sensing the New Planet Namek when trying to find Dende because it was too far for him to sense their Ki. New Namek, a planet thats in the same dimensional realm as Goku himself. He needed to go all the way to King Kai's in order to get a better range of KI sensing to find it (plus King Kai pointing him in the right direction). So if Goku couldnt even sense one far away planet in the same realm as himself, I highly doubt he should be able to sense beings from an entire space-time away.... And incase anyone brings up a point such as King Kai being able to sense them from his home, remember King Kai is a Kai and an observer of the universe. Same thing with the other kais, normal or supreme. It makes perfect sense that deities such as them can sense beyond space-time, especially if its in a realm that they themselves watch over and preserve. For example, Supreme Kai told everyone that unlike Goku who needs to sense Ki, his teleportation wasnt limited he could go anywhere he wanted in U7. All because of him being a Kai. And we see proof to this when they used him to get to Namek and use Porunga to help Goku beat Buu. Basically, you could say Goku shouldnt be sensing them, but they can be sensing him.
3. Now, please correct me if im mistaken, but I remember when Goku took Cell to King Kai's world to blow himself up there and not on earth, the explosion was even seeable from the mortal universe (i'll try and find the vid that shows this if you want). Now that should also be completely impossible if they were separate space-times as not only would we not be able to see it, we wouldnt even be able to sense it either. And considering Cell at that time was, what 4-B? His power should have been no where near great enough to be able to penerate realms. We have never seen something like this until Super Shenrons light was bright up to light up 2 universes.
Again, please excuse my intrusion on a staff-only thread, I just thought I should address the points I told Ryukama.
Now, regarding the afterlife and kaisohin realm being separate space-time from the mortal universe, there are some points I have that seem to point that idea into the opposite direction:
1. The most common point is Goku and Beerus's shockwaves they created during their battle being able to reach both realms (well the kaioshin realm anyway). Now, from what I know, wouldnt Beerus and Goku's fighting somewhat prove that they are connected to the mortal universe? Afterall, the shockwaves released by their battle were even able to transverse into the kaioshin realm and if they were totally separate, then the shockwaves happening on a level such as the mortal universe would be impossible to go into separate space-times. Furthermore, if Goku and Beerus were able to make shockwaves at that magnitude, then I'd say its safe to assume that if Beerus were to ever go up against someone like Champa, then the same shockwaves, if not, stronger ones would appear and they are only stated by Whis/Vados to be able to destroy both U7 and U6. The threat of their fighting, which is logically far more dangerous than Beerus holding back against Goku, is never portrayed as being able to reach spaces such as the Kaioshin realm. In addition to this, If their shockwaves were able to transverse space-time, then why has something like the ROSAT room, a pocket dimension that is also a separate space-time, never hinted to be destroyed as well? It shouldnt make any sense that a realm near the size of a whole universe can be threatend by Goku and Beerus's clash but not a realm thats planet sized at best and far closer to the range of their battling.
2. IIRC, hasnt Goku been consistently shown to be able to sense the KI signatures of beings like Supreme Kai and King Kai even from the mortal universe? That should be completely impossible if the Kaioshin Realm and Otherworld were separate realms. And before anyone says "Goku's energy sensing can go beyond space-time", this shouldnt be correct. After all, he wasnt able to sense Gotenks and Buu fighting in the ROSAT, another separate space-time. In addition, I seem to remember Goku once having trouble sensing the New Planet Namek when trying to find Dende because it was too far for him to sense their Ki. New Namek, a planet thats in the same dimensional realm as Goku himself. He needed to go all the way to King Kai's in order to get a better range of KI sensing to find it (plus King Kai pointing him in the right direction). So if Goku couldnt even sense one far away planet in the same realm as himself, I highly doubt he should be able to sense beings from an entire space-time away.... And incase anyone brings up a point such as King Kai being able to sense them from his home, remember King Kai is a Kai and an observer of the universe. Same thing with the other kais, normal or supreme. It makes perfect sense that deities such as them can sense beyond space-time, especially if its in a realm that they themselves watch over and preserve. For example, Supreme Kai told everyone that unlike Goku who needs to sense Ki, his teleportation wasnt limited he could go anywhere he wanted in U7. All because of him being a Kai. And we see proof to this when they used him to get to Namek and use Porunga to help Goku beat Buu. Basically, you could say Goku shouldnt be sensing them, but they can be sensing him.
3. Now, please correct me if im mistaken, but I remember when Goku took Cell to King Kai's world to blow himself up there and not on earth, the explosion was even seeable from the mortal universe (i'll try and find the vid that shows this if you want). Now that should also be completely impossible if they were separate space-times as not only would we not be able to see it, we wouldnt even be able to sense it either. And considering Cell at that time was, what 4-B? His power should have been no where near great enough to be able to penerate realms. We have never seen something like this until Super Shenrons light was bright up to light up 2 universes.
Again, please excuse my intrusion on a staff-only thread, I just thought I should address the points I told Ryukama.
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Well the only thing that means is the shockwaves are multi-universal in range tbh. I mean they have made attacks cross space time before, like buu and gotenks cutting space time with ki, zamasu was crossing space time in soul form, black seemingly cut though it with his scythe to another one, Hit even made his own and Goku shattered that through the regular one. Also they can sense ki emenate from other universes, so I don't see a reason why those attacks could not be multi-universal range.
Also if this helps the manga actually still shows even U 10 as a macrocausm.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/IEmngQK7Ch...VK26IGJCGl7duZhmZ=s0?title=028_1474622201.png
So I would say that the afterlife beign seperate is certainly relevant and the macrocasum thing is still fine to use.
Also if this helps the manga actually still shows even U 10 as a macrocausm.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/IEmngQK7Ch...VK26IGJCGl7duZhmZ=s0?title=028_1474622201.png
So I would say that the afterlife beign seperate is certainly relevant and the macrocasum thing is still fine to use.
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As far as Buu and Gotenks go, they didnt really have attacks go across space-time. They made a portal, which connected back to U7 for them to cross through as they please. If their attacks could cross space-time, then Goku would have sensed their fighting and Piccolo, Bulma and the others at the lookout could sense and feel their fighting.
The rest seems like just hax except Zamasu but that may be because he was becoming one with the timeline. Also you may be confused by my point. I know they can sense energy in different universes but that doesnt mean they can sense energy in separate space-times.
The rest seems like just hax except Zamasu but that may be because he was becoming one with the timeline. Also you may be confused by my point. I know they can sense energy in different universes but that doesnt mean they can sense energy in separate space-times.
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There attacks still showed to connect to other tiemlines though is the thing. So it is still multi universal range via ki.
There power origonally wasn't seemingly strong enough to be sensed, but we see things like SSJ3 Goku being sensed, even though it was seemingly impossible according to teh kais across from the kai realm, so that can be chalked up to them simply not releasign enough power till they escaped.
Well again, conecting 2 spacetimes with an attack is multi-universal range so it would apply to black and defiantly soul zamasu, these are just some examples of them showing such range before, with ki, thus its not out of the ordinary for Goku and Beerus to do the same.
I mean we know they can cross space tiem with attacks, they ahve done it multiple times, and it is made clear you can't normally reach other world or kaioshin realm without teleportation or god powers like Whis. And we know for sure multiple places like ROSAT, The Universe, Other world etc all have diffrent flows of time and spaces. So i definitly would say they have seperate tiemspaces, but are still effected by the timeline multiplying, kind of like a small multiversal duplicator instead of a Unviersal one like most tiemliens are.
There power origonally wasn't seemingly strong enough to be sensed, but we see things like SSJ3 Goku being sensed, even though it was seemingly impossible according to teh kais across from the kai realm, so that can be chalked up to them simply not releasign enough power till they escaped.
Well again, conecting 2 spacetimes with an attack is multi-universal range so it would apply to black and defiantly soul zamasu, these are just some examples of them showing such range before, with ki, thus its not out of the ordinary for Goku and Beerus to do the same.
I mean we know they can cross space tiem with attacks, they ahve done it multiple times, and it is made clear you can't normally reach other world or kaioshin realm without teleportation or god powers like Whis. And we know for sure multiple places like ROSAT, The Universe, Other world etc all have diffrent flows of time and spaces. So i definitly would say they have seperate tiemspaces, but are still effected by the timeline multiplying, kind of like a small multiversal duplicator instead of a Unviersal one like most tiemliens are.
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"So it is still multi universal range via ki."
Multi-Universal range with a movement technique does not apply to normal attacks. Vice Shout is a distinct technique that operates very differently from other attacks. Its range most definitely does not apply to anything else, because nothing else works like Vice Shout does.
ProfessorKukui makes perfect sense to me.
Multi-Universal range with a movement technique does not apply to normal attacks. Vice Shout is a distinct technique that operates very differently from other attacks. Its range most definitely does not apply to anything else, because nothing else works like Vice Shout does.
ProfessorKukui makes perfect sense to me.
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I was simply pointing out that they have multiple attacks that cross space time, such as vice shout, blacks scythe, soul zamasu in general, Goku destroying Hit's space time from a diffrent one etc. So Beerus and Goku attacks crossing more than 1 space time fits well in that trend. Goku and Beerus effecting the macrocausm doesn't really prove that there is only 1 space time in the whole 12 macrocausms, just that Goku and Beerus shockwaves crossed multiple spaces tbh.
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Well considering the manga is secondary canon and Toyotaro seems to be getting more and more involved with the anime now, if it still applies the cosmology of the afterlife being separate from the main universe, I don't see a problem with accepting that as long as nothing in the anime directly contradicts it.
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