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Hajun vs Nyarlathotep

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Hajun is a starved and homeless indian boi and Nyar is a giant noodle so... Hajun is less hungry ovo.
 
Leaning towards Nyarlathotep actually, due to higher transcendence.

Don't forget that far before the first gate, we already have an infinite hiearchy of Outerversal realms which Hypnos fully and absolutely transcends. There is also the hierarchy of various Great Old Ones which we must take into account, already creating a beyond infinite Outerversal scale. And this, all of this means 'jackshit' to the First Gate.

Then we have Singularity on the Masadaverse's side. But first of all its better if I link this as I am not good at articulating the meaning and depth of both Singularity and Taiji as Ravenous. Singularity essentially creates an infinite Outerversal scale, before the Throne itself, and the Throne as I'm sure we all know, is nothing in the face of Taiji.

Now Taikyoku/Taiji was once believed to have an infinite level of difference by each ten. Meaning if a guy had 50 Taikyoku and you had 40, that guy was an infinite degree stronger than you. However this absolutely no longer the case, as a guy with 1 Taikyoku could still be infinitely stronger than you even if you had 1 Taikyoku yourself.

Now, Hajun' is so powerful his Taikyoku cannot be measured', implying he goes beyond Taikyoku values at the most. It was famously said by Tenma Yato that fighting Hajun is like fighting a freaking God.

Okay, that's it for Hajun. Now back to Nyarlathotep.

As I said before, the First Gate is so far above Hypnos, a guy who transcended an infinite number of Outerversal realms before being BTFOed by the First Gate. Yes indeed, the First Gate transcends Hypnos, the same way Hypnos transcends a regular human.

Bang. Boom. Buddapingpong.

That is why the Gates are far superior to the Taikyoku value, as while the Taikyoku has an infinite Outerversal difference between even 2 guys who have the same Taikyoku, transcending a beyond infinite 1-A to the same point that he transcends a human is simply massive.

to highlight how big this is, the difference between a guy with 100 Taikyoku and 1 Taikyoku is an infinite degree of infinites, (Not 10 degrees of infinity as once believed) stronger. Yet this pales in comparison to the Gates, as the difference between the last gate is 'as great' as the previous gate transcending the last, and there 'are' an infinite number of them. This means that the difference between each gate is such that a beyond infinite 1-A character is seen as just a regular human.

Now that I have explained the singularity and taikyoku values as well as the Gates, I think its safe to say that Hajun, who makes an infinite degrees of infinity Outerversal entity like Yato look like a 10-B in comparison, is literally what each Gate does to the previous one that it transcends. I haven't even talked about Nyarlathotep, who exists far beyond even the Ultimate Gate.

And for these reasons I am proud to argue for Nyarlathotep.
 
Correction, the Singularity isnt just infinite, it can reach infinite, endless layers at its peak, going by Hajuns Singularity. The argument for the recent power surge of Hadou/Gudou gods is that a single Taikyoku value is qualitativly superior to the Singularity, regardless of its deph, making them trancending a full infinite hierachy by having a single Taikyoku.

This match is a incon for once. Both Hajun and Nyarlathothep trancend a hierachy that trancends a hierachy already.
 
How does that compare to the massive difference between Gates? It doesn't matter if they both transcend a hierarchy, what matters is how far their hierarchy goes, and the Gates is simply beyond anything we have seen in Masadaverse as of now.
 
First Witch said:
Correction, the Singularity isnt just infinite, it can reach infinite, endless layers at its peak, going by Hajuns Singularity. The argument for the recent power surge of Hadou/Gudou gods is that a single Taikyoku value is qualitativly superior to the Singularity, regardless of its deph, making them trancending a full infinite hierachy by having a single Taikyoku.
This match is a incon for once. Both Hajun and Nyarlathothep trancend a hierachy that trancends a hierachy already.
Click to expand...
Actually, the Throne itself is qualitatively superior to The Singularity, and Taikyoku, even with the smallest amount, is beyond the Throne.

Then you have Hajun who breaks the Taikyoku system entirely - being stated by Tenma Yato that him fighting Hajun is like a normal man fighting a Hadou God.


And at this point, the abtractness and the levels of infinites get so large and complicated that it becomes somewhat arbitrary to debate.

I'd probably just go with Inconclusive to be safe, but reality - I wouldn't make this fight in the first place.
 
I can perfectly understand why many would consider to vote incon, but I urge all of you to consider voting for Nyarlathotep. The truth essentially lies in the massive difference between Gates.

I also agree that this match shouldn't be made, because it is quite a stomp.
 
"As I said before, the First Gate is so far above Hypnos, a guy who transcended an infinite number of Outerversal realms before being BTFOed by the First Gate. Yes indeed, the First Gate transcends Hypnos, the same way Hypnos transcends a regular human."

This part here is, no offence, a non sequitour. So Hypnos trancends a infinite hierachy, the First Gate trancends Hypnos. This simply establishes that the Gates are indeed a higher Cardinal, a qualitative superior hierachy to the previous hierachy of Great Old ones.

But the mistakes lies in the misconception that Outerversal trancendence are just infinite stacked upon infinites. Outerversal layers arent spatial dimenions (Witch is even more questionable, as how we currently treat dimensions, no matter how many infinites you stack onto it, it wont reach the higher dimension. For example you could make infinite^infinite 3D and it would still be inferior to superior limited 4D space. At least for now, Ultima looms over this and im no physic nerd to question that system)

Qualitative superiority. No matter how many infinites a being of lower standing stacks, it wont reach the higher layer. It dosnt matter how many inferior hierachies you can stack in a single layer until you reach the higher layer, because that is to be expected for a layer to be considerd truly trancendend of the lower one. Its absolutly hopeless for a god of one taikyoku to beat a god of 2 Taikyoku, regardless of how many singularities can fit into one Taikyoku, because by definitio Taikyoku is superior to the Singularity.
 
Warren Valion said:
Actually, the Throne itself is qualitatively superior to The Singularity, and Taikyoku, even with the smallest amount, is beyond the Throne.
Click to expand...
But the Throne itself isnt a infinite layered hierachy right? So its not more than a added layer onto the hierachy. The Taikyoku hierachy just starts by 0 instead of 1 i guess
 
First Witch said:
But the Throne itself isnt a infinite layered hierachy right? So its not more than a added layer onto the hierachy. The Taikyoku hierachy just starts by 0 instead of 1 i guess
Click to expand...
From my knowledge, The Singularity is completely below the Throne floor, being encompassed by it and all.

You could ask Raven for more info, as he far more knowledgeable on the topic than I.
 
First Witch said:
"As I said before, the First Gate is so far above Hypnos, a guy who transcended an infinite number of Outerversal realms before being BTFOed by the First Gate. Yes indeed, the First Gate transcends Hypnos, the same way Hypnos transcends a regular human."
This part here is, no offence, a non sequitour. So Hypnos trancends a infinite hierachy, the First Gate trancends Hypnos. This simply establishes that the Gates are indeed a higher Cardinal, a qualitative superior hierachy to the previous hierachy of Great Old ones.

But the mistakes lies in the misconception that Outerversal trancendence are just infinite stacked upon infinites. Outerversal layers arent spatial dimenions (Witch is even more questionable, as how we currently treat dimensions, no matter how many infinites you stack onto it, it wont reach the higher dimension. For example you could make infinite^infinite 3D and it would still be inferior to superior limited 4D space. At least for now, Ultima looms over this and im no physic nerd to question that system)

Qualitative superiority. No matter how many infinites a being of lower standing stacks, it wont reach the higher layer. It dosnt matter how many inferior hierachies you can stack in a single layer until you reach the higher layer, because that is to be expected for a layer to be considerd truly trancendend of the lower one. Its absolutly hopeless for a god of one taikyoku to beat a god of 2 Taikyoku, regardless of how many singularities can fit into one Taikyoku, because by definitio Taikyoku is superior to the Singularity.
Click to expand...
Yes, this is a fault on my part, as I failed to emphasise what I really meant when Hypnos is infinitely more complex than a regular 1-A. The Gates still transcend Hypnos as if he were a human. That is the main thing to take away.

It would be more correct if I said Hypnos is qualitatively superior to an infinite number of 1-A realms, with each transcending the last.
 
Imma vote Incon just as I would if Hajun fought any CM baddie until you reach Yog and Azzy because at these levels everything is completely abstract and everything becomes arbitrary so trying to decide which is actually stronger is nearly impossible imo.
 
"It would be more correct if I said Hypnos is qualitatively superior to an infinite number of 1-A realms, with each transcending the last."

Well yes, i know that. But.

This is what the Singularity is and what The Throne/Taikoyku does.
 
Singularity pretty sure even if u stack infinities of infinity of depth it still be a singularity and it's not gonna be over the throne let alone Taikyoku itself.
 
But I didn't. I literraly said that I was not using that old stuff and even linked Rave's revisions.

Also, the Gates is simply far more complex as a hierarchy than Taikyoku. That's why Nyarlathotep wins this.
 
But you didnt provide any reasons as to why it is so...

The Singularity is literally akin to the infinite hierachy Hypnos put behind and Taikyoku isnt some weird infinite difference, as i already explained above
 
That's not exaclty how I define the Taikyoku, I said that even a God with 1 Taikyoku can still be infinetly stornger than a God with 1 Taikyoku as well. Sorry for confusing you.
 
... Ehm, did you actually read what i wrote?

"that is why the Gates are far superior to the Taikyoku value, as while the Taikyoku has an infinite Outerversal difference between even 2 guys who have the same Taikyoku, transcending a beyond infinite 1-A to the same point that he transcends a human is simply massive."

This... Is not how cardinal Hierachies work. I explained what qualitative superiority is. A single Taikyoku is qualitativly superior to the Singularity, the Singularity being a infinitly layered Hierachy, with each layer qualitativly surpassing the lower one. Infinite^Infinite right there. This is literally what Hypnos did, surpassing such a hierachy. Now here is the thing, qualitative superiority isnt just slapping infinites to reach the next level. It never was, it isnt right now and it will never be. It dosnt matter with you multiply the Layers by another infinite, nor adding another infinitly layered hierachy additionally to it. It dosnt matter for a god of one Taikyoku wether or not the Singularity gets multiplied by infinites upon infinites upon infinites or wether you add infinite additional Singularities into the cluster, its still beneath one Taikyoku.

You can, for example imagine it like that. Take a baseline Outerversal being, whatever, it just needs to be "baseline". Compare that to the dimensional construct it trancends. No matter how many dimenions you add into that constructs, its still beneath the being. It could be 11, 100, 100000000, googleplex, infinite, infinite^infinite or infinite^infinite and this ^infinite, its still qualitatily below the outerversal being. Now take this dimensional construct and make it exist in a outerversal hierachy, each layer being outerversal and trancending the lower one. Dimesional construct exist now in Layer 1 and is qualitativly superior the non outerversal construct (Let fiction be fiction on this example) and now your being trancended to layer 2. The game continues ad infinitum, a basic outerversal hierachy.

The Gates are now the second hierachy, the same applies here. They have a entire hierachy prior to the first gate. The very first layer of this hierachy is qualitiavly superior to the entire hierachy that came before.

Now to the Singularity. The Singularity is literally what Hypnos put behind him before he reached the First Gate. The First Gate is qualitativly superior to Nodens, check. But so is 1 Taikyoku. And i dont believe the difference between 1 and 2 is smaller than 1 and 0. 1 Taikyoku could have infinite Singularities chained at each other and it woudnt make any difference for 2 Taikyoku
 
Abu2411 said:
That's not exaclty how I define the Taikyoku, I said that even a God with 1 Taikyoku can still be infinetly stornger than a God with 1 Taikyoku as well. Sorry for confusing you.
Click to expand...
Where did u determine that, because we've got an establishment that Satanels fight, even with tiniest bit of quality gap, to the point Shiori with her infinite possibilities was negged, this is not even when it comes to value difference but merely a tiniest quality
 
I agree with you, but the problem is that the difference between Gates is such that the Second Gate is qualitatively superior to the First Gate, and the Third Gate is qualitatively superior to the Second Gate, and so on. SImilar to Taikyoku, where a being with 1 Taikyoku is qualitatively superior to the Throne. Now where Nyarlathotep wins is because he is qualitatively superior to the Ultimate Gate, which is qualitatively superior to the rest of the Gate hierarchy, as it is the last in line of an infinite number of Gates.

" There were hints of it in the cryptical Pnakotic fragments, and a whole chapter in the forbidden Necronomicon of the mad Arab, Abdul Alhazred, had taken on significance when he had deciphered the designs graven on the silver key. A gate had been unlocked - not, indeed, the Ultimate Gate, but one leading from Earth and time to that extension of Earth which is outside time, and from which in turn the Ultimate Gate leads fearsomely and perilously to the last Void which is outside all 'earths', all universes, and all matter. " -Through the Gates of the Silver Key

From my understanding of K3, Hajun isn't exactly outright qualitatively superior to the Taikyoku, but lets assume he was. He would still be under Nyarlathotep as the scope of his Outerversal power is less transcendent than Nyar's.

Where did u determine that, because we've got an establishment that Satanels fight, even with '''''tiniest''''' bit of quality gap, to the point Shiori with her infinite possibilities was negged, this is not even when it comes to value difference but merely '''''a tiniest''''' quality

What does it mean by quality? What I should have said is that even 1 taikyoku can have many gaps of power between another being with the same taikyoku value.


By the way everyone, this is actually a good discussion. It isn't degenerating into some mess of a thread thankfully.
 
They are not qualitively superior but rather they are conceptually superior, without Taikyoku Throne wouldnt exist, so this qualitively superior isnt really impressive imo.


I already said this one tiniest bit of qualitively superior to Shiori when she fought satanels shade which i slready explained above but this is not speaking of the actual value differences which changes the. So Hajun is above the counting point of the taiji system which if we use somethibg like a god only having 1 taiji would be even worse when hajun vs yato was like A hadou god vs a human despite the latter having highest counting value.
 
The thing with the Gates is that each one transcends the last the same way the last transcends the one before it. And the difference of transcendence with these Gates is that the strongest being from A lower Gate will seem just like a regular human compared to even the weakest being in the Gate beyond. Exaclty like Yato saying fighting Hajun is like fighting a God.
 
Abu2411 said:
The thing with the Gates is that each one transcends the last the same way the last transcends the one before it. And the difference of transcendence with these Gates is that the strongest being from A lower Gate will seem just like a regular human compared to even the weakest being in the Gate beyond. Exaclty like Yato saying fighting Hajun is like fighting a God.
Click to expand...
Debunked by the staff outside of wiki.

It's an inconclusive, even a Gudou God Vs Nyar would be inconclusive.

Might as well kill the thread.
 
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