(Gurren Lagann 1-A/ H1-A+ upgrade) Don’t believe in yourself. Believe in the upgrade that believes in you!

[Livinmeme]

Greater than dimensions and time doesn't tell me much, especially in the case for R>F as this has absolutely jack shit with treating fiction as something disconnected from reality.

This is getting goofy, it is literally explained how they are greater than dimensions, and you are saying that R>F is based on...Dimensions?

 

[Robo432343]

 

[Theglassman12]

@Livinmeme In what way is that expanded upon, because a statement like that isn't enough for 1-A without elaborations on what they mean by being greater. It's the same reason why we don't automatically assume being greater than time is enough for immeasurable speeds unless elaborated that they're capable of literally moving through time itself.

You mean the same R>F stuff that has a 2-D to 3-D world being verbatim stated as a reference? The same thing that's literally defined under dimensions itself? Because unless you can prove that what GL's definition of dimensions does not correlate with what our definition of spatial dimensions are (which doesn't seem to be the case given literally the entire blog explaining the franchise's High 1-C stats says as much), this is flimsy evidence for 1-A, and especially High 1-A+ as barely any of this has any evidence to being on that level.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Greater than dimensions and time doesn't tell me much, especially in the case for R>F as this has absolutely jack shit with treating fiction as something disconnected from reality.

I’m looking at the faq, and such statements are automatically at least low 1-a, when anti feats exist barring them from 1-A.

As a general rule-of-thumb, statements of being "above dimensions" and the like, whenever validly indicating a superiority over higher dimensions, fall under this tier without further context. See herefor more information.

 

[Phoenks]

I am neither in favor of disfavor of the OP, but trying to use the galaxies and other "official" measurements to say that TTGL/STTGL are some measurable things is pretty stupid.

The galaxies are not even real galaxies. They're meant to represent entire universes, and they're within an (at least) 11-dimensional space.

And measurements are just blatantly stupid for many reasons. If they are bigger than literal universes within an 11-dimensional space then they just make no sense and can be dismissed quite easily as a result. You could also just make the argument that these are measurements from the perspective of these (at least) higher-dimensional entities.

This was a similar argument to the one that was made in one of the Last Boss threads as well.

 

[Livinmeme]

@Livinmeme In what way is that expanded upon, because a statement like that isn't enough for 1-A without elaborations on what they mean by being greater. It's the same reason why we don't automatically assume being greater than time is enough for immeasurable speeds unless elaborated that they're capable of literally moving through time itself.

You mean the same R>F stuff that has a 2-D to 3-D world being verbatim stated as a reference? The same thing that's literally defined under dimensions itself? Because unless you can prove that what GL's definition of dimensions does not correlate with what our definition of spatial dimensions are (which doesn't seem to be the case given literally the entire blog explaining the franchise's High 1-C stats says as much), this is flimsy evidence for 1-A, and especially High 1-A+ as barely any of this has any evidence to being on that level.

You can't be greater than something while stile operating on that something, is like living in a house which you is smaller than you are (also, you know very well than that is just supporting feat for the r>f feat)

 

[Phoenks]

Simon uses his spiral power to write a story, and this story becomes its own 2 dimensional universe.



In essence, while crafting his story and the world within it, Otoko Simon utilized his Spiral Energy to connect his own universe with a 2D universe. Alongside the power of his voice, this connection enabled that universe's own Simon, "Garlock," to perform "spatial teleportation," allowing him to cross into Otoko Simon's dimension. When Otoko Simon tore the manuscript, it created a "gateway" linking the two dimensions. Additionally, any modifications made to the manuscript directly influenced the reality and storyline of the 2D universe, notably steering Garlock towards meeting Kamina to help him grow as a person.

In simpler terms, the primary distinction between a 2D universe and a 3D universe is essentially between fiction and reality. By writing with a pen charged with his Spiral Energy, Otoko Simon crafted a fictional 2D universe that he could manipulate at will through his script within his 3D reality. This implies that traversing from a lower-dimensional universe to a higher one in TTGL involves moving from a fictional realm to a real one. Each dimension above perceives those below as fictional, with each successive dimension layering further into a greater reality.

For 1, this is possible with 11-dimensional powers. This doesn't necessitate a R>F relationship. If I have 11-D power then naturally I could create 2-D worlds beneath me.

For 2, the fact that they are relating these gaps to dimensionality differences, in a verse where "dimension" is actually used in the (relatively) proper manner, serves as a big anti-feat.

This is not good evidence.

In the main series and movies, Simon needs to transport the Arc Gurren from the 3D universe to the Anti-Spiral universe to save Nia. This Anti-Spiral universe exists between the 10th and 11th dimensions. While this might seem like it disqualifies him, it’s important to understand the nature of Spiral Energy. Spiral Energy is a powerful force that holds life and the universe together, even in the Anti-Spiral universe, where it’s just prevented from manifesting. Despite this blockade, Simon and his team can still use Spiral Energy there.

For this transportation feat, Simon explains to his team that using their "spirit" or "fighting spirit" (another term for Spiral Power), they can "fly anywhere," implying that dimensional travel requires Spiral Energy. This is crucial because Spiral Energy was how Otoko Simon created the 2D universe for Garlock, showing that it can create, connect, and bind different realities. Given that Spiral Energy holds the universe and life forms together, it’s at least an "Outerversal" or 1A energy source. Using this power for dimensional travel is not a disqualifier; in fact, using a 1A energy source to achieve 1A feats or transcend dimensions fits the R>F Standards.

Uh, no.

If the TTGL is only 11-D, then the force that holds it together would be 11-D as well. If a cosmology is 2-A, then its source would be "2-A." Not really understand this jump you're making.

You need to first prove that holding the "universe" and "life forms" together necessitates a 1-A energy source. To do that you'd need to prove the universe/life-forms are 1-A, or at least something like Low 1-A, to where you can argue that the source is qualitatively beyond its resultants.

Spiral power is also stated to be “beyond dimensions and time”

At best would be Low 1-A but you'd need to provide a good reason to take this as literally as possible given the other context of the series.

The Anti-Spiral is also stated to transcend time and space:

Same as above.

“Feeling” (which is just referring to spiral power,as referred to in a previous scan.)is said to transcend time and space.

Hyperbole.

Infinite possibilities in the TTGL verse exist, generated by thought into reality. Each of them can have varying fundamental laws and rules Thus, anything that can be thought about,exists in the verse.

Gurren Laggan exist within a probabilistic multiverse. The probabilities only extend up to the scale of the series itself. So if the verse is 1-A, then there are infinite 1-A parallels. If the verse is 11-D, as it is currently accepted, there are infinite 11-D parallels (This is was is currently accepted for their scaling).

You are super extrapolating the statements.

 

[Rayfire]

As much as I’d love to see Simon fighting Galactus, The “10th and 11th dimensions” statement is a big anti-feat here, meaning it contradicts pretty much everything here.

I’m looking at the faq, and such statements are automatically at least low 1-a, when anti feats exist barring them from 1-A.

I don’t think that applies when anti-feats, hyperboles, inconsistencies, etc are around. Otherwise there would be a bunch of verses that would be Low 1-A by now

I disagree

 

[Wankbreaker]

As much as I’d love to see Simon fighting Galactus, The “10th and 11th dimensions” statement is a big anti-feat here, meaning it contradicts pretty much everything here.

If they were traditional dimensions, you can’t be “between” a dimension. That makes no logical sense

 

[Rayfire]

If they were traditional dimensions, you can’t be “between” a dimension. That makes no logical sense

Things in fiction rarely make logical sense to begin with

Even if they weren’t traditional dimensions, that still doesn’t prove to be anything close to Low 1-A.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Things in fiction rarely make logical sense to begin with

Except… being “between” a dimension CANNOT exist under a spatio-temporal framework. how do you even get half of time? Or half of depth?

Even if they weren’t traditional dimensions, that still doesn’t prove to be anything close to Low 1-A.

How so?
The anti spiral has both a a-dimensional nature, and superiority to those things.

 

[Qawsedf234]

they were traditional dimensions, you can’t be “between” a dimension. That makes no logical sense

Brane dimensions are membranes holding smaller spaces. If it's between them it just means s it's jumping between those layers afaik.

 

[Rayfire]

Except… being “between” a dimension CANNOT exist under a spatio-temporal framework. how do you even get half of time? Or half of depth?

How so?
The anti spiral has both a a-dimensional nature, and superiority to those things.

It’s a brane cosmology dude There are spaces In between encompassed dimensions

 

[Robo432343]

'set of dimensional axes' straight up denies any 1-A

 

[Rayfire]

Anyway, there are already 2 staff that disagree with this, so from what I remember I think this can be closed.

'set of dimensional axes' straight up denies any 1-A

@Wankbreaker ^^^

 

[Iiliminal]

1-A is still viable, yall jsut need to stop with the whole higher dimensions in gurren lagann are r>f thing
otoko simon transcends all of TTGL which with new statemetns gets to 20-D

 

[Rayfire]

1-A is still viable, yall jsut need to stop with the whole higher dimensions in gurren lagann are r>f thing
otoko simon transcends all of TTGL which with new statemetns gets to 20-D

1-B is nowhere close to Low 1-A, let alone 1-A, especially when it’s made pretty clear that Gurren Lagann runs under brane cosmology.

 

[Definitelynotbatman0110]

I'll just keep reposting this

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Uh, no.

If the TTGL is only 11-D, then the force that holds it together would be 11-D as well. If a cosmology is 2-A, then its source would be "2-A." Not really understand this jump you're making.

You need to first prove that holding the "universe" and "life forms" together necessitates a 1-A energy source. To do that you'd need to prove the universe/life-forms are 1-A, or at least something like Low 1-A, to where you can argue that the source is qualitatively beyond its resultants.

This statement was pulled from my blog which was treating Otoko Simon’s home universe and everything above it as an Outerversal realm, due to him creating a universe through the process of creating a fictional story through spiral energy. And thus it being the force that creates universes and binds them and their lifeforms together thus would be a 1A energy source. It obviously wouldn’t be a 1A energy source on its own if it was not forming a 1A realm and only an 11D realm.

I think some people are having misunderstandings / misgivings with some of the things in OP as they’re functionally looking at small snippets of the greater blog they’re being pulled from, but it is what it is. I would suggest people who are arguing against the OP to at least read the full blog it attached. I have no issues with people disagreeing with the foundations of the feat itself I suppose but I at least want there to be an understanding of the full arguments

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Also ultimately shouldn’t this thread be getting locked and held off until Ultima can look at it rather than immediately being clogged with 4 pages of conversation?

 

[Rayfire]

I already addressed the WoG here. Nakashima said that the understanding of the multiverse changes with time, from 4D when the writers were kids to 11D by the time they were adults. Besides, Nakashima was the one who also wrote the Otoko series of Drama CDs where we got the 20D statements.

As for them being "constrained by dimensions", the novelization disproves that.

“Greater power than dimensions and time” Doesn’t mean anything on its own. It’s either extremely inconsistent with all the current scaling or is a hyperbole. Neither of them lead to Low 1-A lol

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

And regardless of what goes on with Outer and above arguments, I think the verse should get a pretty simple and easy upgrade to 20D/Hyperversal due to the Otoko Simon stuff. In no way is the verse locked / tied to 11D by any means, and I think the greater cosmology being 20D should be blatant enough.

 

[Phoenks]

Could I have more information on this 20-D statement stuff. Is this simply in regards to how our real-world theories have developed?

 

[Phoenks]

I have read through Kirbonic Pikmin's entire blog.

I can see where the arguments for 1-A come from, personally, but it's uncertain whether or not they would qualify.

The biggest issue, which Pikmin hasn't addressed, is the "2D" terminology used to refer to the fictional world.

The problem is that every time dimensionality is brought up, it is used in a literal sense. It even references string/brane cosmology and mathematical axes. Your very own blog brings this up.

This is a massive thorn in the side of the 1-A argument, because now you have to prove that they aren't just using the "fiction" aspect of this 2D world the wrong way.

You practically have to disregard the mathematical-ness of the dimensional statements, which are far more supported, in favor of the far less supported viewpoint required to make each dimension a R>F gap.

If you can address is somehow, I would be in favor of a possibly rating.

If not, then I must disagree.

 

[Definitelynotbatman0110]

Could I have more information on this 20-D statement stuff. Is this simply in regards to how our real-world theories have developed?

Here.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Anyway, there are already 2 staff that disagree with this, so from what I remember I think this can be closed.

@Wankbreaker ^^^

DDM agreed with 1-A.

also……

In general, such cases can be relatively straightforward, as in cosmologies where conventional reality is portrayed as "not really real," and there are superior, "more real" worlds beyond it. If, on top of that, the higher world is depicted as being one that is inhabited by literal readers, authors and consumers of media, and not simply cosmic beings taking the metaphorical appearance of such (Take this article's image as reference),[note 2] then that is substantial evidence for a Reality-Fiction Transcendence, in particular if the higher plane demonstrably has its own set of dimensions, so that it is impossible for it and the lower world to be related to each other by dimensional differences.

 

[Wankbreaker]

The statement you sent actually supports 1-A

 

[PonePoster]

Except… being “between” a dimension CANNOT exist under a spatio-temporal framework. how do you even get half of time? Or half of depth?

How so?
The anti spiral has both a a-dimensional nature, and superiority to those things.

I mean aren't like fractional dimensions a thing?

 

[Wankbreaker]

I mean aren't like fractional dimensions a thing?

not that I’m aware of.

 

[Huesito88]

I mean aren't like fractional dimensions a thing?

You mean like "6.5-D" or what? (Elaborate further plz)

 

[Wankbreaker]

Also, again, the opposition kindly presented to us that the higher layers operate under a completely DIFFERENT SET OF DIMENSIONS,which is one r>f feat cited in the blog.

 

[Theglassman12]

@PonePoster Marvel literally has dimensions that are 6.2 and others that are just fractional and treated to be higher infinities, so yeah those do exist in fiction (as silly as it sounds).

 

[Wankbreaker]

@PonePoster Marvel literally has dimensions that are 6.2 and others that are just fractional and treated to be higher infinities, so yeah those do exist in fiction.

the difference is those are implied to or directly exist within the fiction. TTGL does not have that (also see the above, I would like your thoughts on that.)

 

[Theglassman12]

Doesn’t matter if TTGL doesn’t spell it out that they have fractional dimensions, it’s still something that can exist in fiction and existing between the 10th and 11th dimension for the anti spiral universe already implies such a concept exists for the series.

 

[Rayfire]

The statement you sent actually supports 1-A

No it doesn’t. You are ignoring the fact that brane cosmology literally can’t be Low Outerversal-Outerversal. At best it Goes to High 1-B which isn’t the case for gurren lagann either, since the highest we’ve actually seen it go is 11-D and MAYBE 20-D if you think the statement brought up by Batman is valid (Which I’m not sure if it is, even for WoG bringing up things like out of the blue seems a bit iffy, especially when a strict cosmology was already established previously)

 

[Wankbreaker]

No it doesn’t. You are ignoring the fact that brane cosmology literally can’t be Low Outerversal-Outerversal. At best it Goes to High 1-B which isn’t the case for gurren lagann either, since the highest we’ve actually seen it go is 11-D and MAYBE 20-D if you think the statement brought up by Batman is valid (Which I’m not sure if it is, even for WoG bringing up things like out of the blue seems a bit iffy, especially when a strict cosmology was already established previously)

the layers are still directly said to have a entirely different set of dimensional axes,which is directly stated on the wikis r>f blog to be a 1-A feat,as they have no dimensional relation. no ifs or buts about that.

Dimensions not being actual “dimensions” isn’t new, see DC.

 

[Rayfire]

the layers are still directly said to have a entirely different set of dimensional axes,which is directly stated on the wikis r>f blog to be a 1-A feat,as they have no dimensional relation. no ifs or buts about that.

If they still have a set of dimensional axes AT ALL they aren’t Low 1-A, let alone 1-A. Nuff said

 

[Wankbreaker]

If they still have a set of dimensional axes AT ALL they aren’t Low 1-A, let alone 1-A. Nuff said

Please read the R>F blog.

(Take this article's image as reference),[note 2] then that is substantial evidence for a Reality-Fiction Transcendence, in particular if the higher plane demonstrably has its own set of dimensions,

 

[Livinmeme]

@PonePoster Marvel literally has dimensions that are 6.2 and others that are just fractional and treated to be higher infinities, so yeah those do exist in fiction (as silly as it sounds).

Capshit is to inconsistent to be used to introduce standards, I mean, they can't even be consistent between itself.

 

[Rayfire]

Please read the R>F blog.

Uh, no.

If the TTGL is only 11-D, then the force that holds it together would be 11-D as well. If a cosmology is 2-A, then its source would be "2-A." Not really understand this jump you're making.

You need to first prove that holding the "universe" and "life forms" together necessitates a 1-A energy source. To do that you'd need to prove the universe/life-forms are 1-A, or at least something like Low 1-A, to where you can argue that the source is qualitatively beyond its resultants.