Gunvolt CRT Thread

[The_Smashor]

Well it's usually unprofessional to link to wiki pages on VSBW for anything but equipment and I don't know where to find another translation for Justice's Rage. And the Armed Blue Gunvolt drama CD's subtitles aren't on the video itself, but on the Youtube subtitles, which may confuse people.

 

[Bobsican]

I mean, look at Tails' profile, it's filled with links to the Sonic Wiki.

So just go ahead.

The problem comes when you're linking to other wikies to explain the powers for you and so on, such links work more as to showcase a justification, rather than more complicated stuff.

Also...

I'm not a calc person, so I don't know what to do. If you can pull it off, go ahead, I'm not expecting anything impressive.

The burden of proof falls on you to use it to justify 8-A being consistent with this, and as I'm not that experienced in actually doing calcs, and this doesn't seem like something reasonable to assume such an high tier for (It can be as low as 9-B, we don't even know if the feat was done immediately or by doing stuff like a danmaku), it may as well be unusable currently, so... 8-A may be going to 8-C in the end, or even 9-A as 8-C is based on something that's actually 9-A by default.

 

[The_Smashor]

I see. I'll do it in a minute (Or tomorrow if I go to bed first. Or technically today since it's 12:03 AM where I am, but semantics)

 

[Smashtwig]

Bruh we already explained that 8-A isn't an outlier, pretty much everyone agrees on that aside from you, and your logic is essentially saying that every tier upgrade would be an outlier. Based on what we do know, it's quote obvious that Adepts should be able to do something 8-A.

 

[Bobsican]

I already agreed on 8-A via Muse Shard scaling, I just felt like pointing that out to be consistent, atlhough I still see it as a bit shaky.

 

[Smashtwig]

I see, a misunderstood on my part then, my bad

 

[The_Smashor]

I need to be up for a 9:30 meeting, so I'll be going to sleep now. If someone else who's in a part of the world where it isn't 2 AM right now would like to put links for the speed feats, be my guess.

Yes I've been procrastinating for the past two hours.

 

[SomebodyData]

You can still have an outlier in the same tier range (tier 7-C vs 7-A for example), it really depends on how often similar level feats occur (Like two high tier 7-B feats would be considered good proof for a mid 7-A feat).

I'm neutral on the feat being an outlier, though only destroying a highway would be grounds for 9-A more often than 8-C. People seem to forget how big of a tier 9-B and 9-A are.

 

[Smashtwig]

Looking at the tier gap from 9-C to 9-A, yeah, quite a big jump. So big that 8-C to 8-A can fit inside that range, like, twice

 

[The_Smashor]

I added the light speed links to Viper and Gibril's profile. Strange how the two with anger issues coincidentally both had direct light speed feats.

 

[The_Smashor]

Also, it should be noted that on the 20th there's going to be Gunvolt news. IDK if there's going to be an English translation the day of, but I'll try and get what I can from the livestream.

 

[Smashtwig]

Confirmed GV news? Last time they did a stream like that there was basically none

 

[The_Smashor]

The game listed under the livestream is "Azure Striker Gunvolt". Putting the title into Google Translate, it says "The loose talk target is Aizu! (Tentative) 25th event information"

Trying to translate Google Translate English in to regular English, "Aizu" probably is supposed to be "Azure". It looks like it's supposed to be a 25th anniversary event. Seems like a good a time as any to reveal more information for the next game of their flagship franchise.

 

[The_Smashor]

Alright, in the stream there's some footage of a new boss, and what looks like Jota (Separate from the new boss)

 

[Smashtwig]

Jota seems like a placeholder considering the text on his thing. It seems like a Zero 3 thing where its a secret disk containing info on enemies. It's essentially a filler text right now, so Jota may only be a placeholder. However, the sprite they use for Jota is when he uses his drone lasers, but his idol sprite isn't like that, so maybe there's a possible chance that he makes a return, much like how Zero 1 bosses return in Zero 3

The new boss is not a miniboss even though the healthbar indicates he is, on the left on when he summons the biker dude, it says "SP Skill Hell Rider", so the dude is a boss. Double Scythe dude can make things dark and teleport around slashing when he appears

Kirin does not work for Sumeragi as speculated. And the wolf is probably not GV, probably some kind of familiar, her Stand

The new menu also looks friggin sick, though it has Copen's home base background as a placeholder

 

[The_Smashor]

I changed the pictures on the verse page, and also changed them slightly to avoid spoilers. Some of them (Like Asimov's) don't fit that well, but it'll have to do. I'm also making a profile for Glaives as weapons.

 

[Smashtwig]

Okay, I just realized Sumeragi Soldiers were a thing

Their tier is good, again, the EATR Rifle was calced at 9-B, nearly 9-A (i posted it somewhere in this thread)

 

[The_Smashor]

Yeah, but said rifle is also an Anti-Tank gun, and is 8-A due to one-shotting tanks that can take hits from Gunvolt.

 

[Bobsican]

All the 8-Cs are casually within that tier? If so, then 8-A may not be that much of an stretch, but only with a "possibly 8-A rating" or so if you ask me.
Scaling the entire verse to a single feat that's above what anyone else has done with no reason power-wise beyond "it happened" sounds quite outlierish now that I think about it.
Either way, 8-Cs are getting nerfed down to 9-A.

 

[Smashtwig]

To be honest, Tenjian's feat is really our only concrete feat at this point. And I really don't want to go through our previous arguments again. I don't know where you get these things from. We've seen first hand just how devastating one adept can be.

 

[Bobsican]

I mean, "devastating" really isn't enought, "strong" and other adjectives hold no real meaning for this sort of stuff.
There's still the large "sun" Nova makes in ASG1, I'm sure that could be calculated for AP.

 

[Smashtwig]

My guy we're going in this perpetual cycle. If this keeps up, the verse is essentially never going to have a concrete answer as to what tier it is. It's honestly giving me a headache how I, no we, need to reinforce our points over, and over again.

I've also asked about the Meteor thing awhile back, it's not clear whether its a fireball, or a meteor, so we can't do fire calcs even if we tried. We basically don't have any other concrete feats that you yourself want, we've been struggling for quite some time trying to do that, and all we do have, is Tenjian

 

[Bobsican]

Mmm... we can do a compromise and just do "At least 9-A, possibly 8-A" on the cast. 9-A can be defaulted to either this or the Nova thing, if it's calculable
Anyways, this is the best I could find within 9-A from the top of my head:
- This is taken as a mini-boss
- This mini-boss feat is easily 9-A

Anything else I can think of is either hax (Teseo), just AoE with no actual direct relation to AP to get any results beyond 9-A (Ghauri, Desna), or the outlier related to Tenjian.
Can you link the feat, BTW? I remember it being a fireball or so.

 

[Smashtwig]

Alright bruh, we can be fairly sure that most Adepts can at least be more powerful than modern day weapons. Tanks like in our time absolutely pale in comparison to the tanks in the verse. But lets be real nice, and say it is 9-A, for whatever reason (I think these tanks should be 8-C tbh, after all, modern day tanks can do that type of damage already). Asimov one shots these tanks, with a dang sniper. Without his Septima (he took out, like three I believe in the intro stage dialouge, with his glasses on, which are his inhibitors), also, these tanks are designated as minibosses, telling us that they are nowhere near a threat as say, an actual adept, in verse both in lore and game, they treat adepts as bigger threats. We have GV, who scales to natural lightning... which is 8-C, we see him drop lightning down with crashbolt, and an Azure Striker's typical lightning attack calls lightning down as his main thing, according to the lore itself. We have also already proven that the 8-C to 8-A is possible since the gap between 8-C to 8-A is NOWHERE near as large as say, 9-C to 9-A (you can fit two 8-Cs to 8-As in there, according to the visual representation alone).

In summary, no IRL weapon, aside from things in the nuclear nature (say, tanks, like you have used in your argument), should stand up to the futuristic tech of GV's verse, these tanks are one shot by someone not using their Septima. We see adepts dealing wide scale damage, no tank of our time should stand up to that, honestly.

Also, I'll comment more about Nova's Clamator. It's discussed that he could be pulling Star Dragon down with his telekinesis, or maybe a real asteroid from outer space, after all, the battle takes place on Firmament, if that's the case, it'd be a lifting strength thing. Thus, he'd be completely uncalcable. It only looks like a fireball, but if it really was a fireball, then why does Viper even exist if Nova can make those things?

I dunno man, I think you really underestimate the adepts in general, especially when they have Muse Shards, that kinda sort of can amplify a Septima significantly enough where GV mid Tenjian stage was like "Bruh, the Muse is freaking strong to be able to amplify a Septima like this"

 

[Bobsican]

I mean, IRL ones are rated just up to 9-A, a calc would be needed to push for an higher result, especially considering such gap is unquantificable anyways.

One-shotting something isn't usable to reach for another tier if no actual AP gap or the like was stated, he can still upscale to this, however, just not in an indexable way as said before, so yeah, still 9-A

The lightning would have to go past this to qualify on that regard, and even then, from looking at the page's history, the 8-C rating was entirely base don the now-debunked 8-C rating based on sheer size of Nova's mecha, which actually falls as 9-A by default. Where it's stated that Crashbolt is that and not just a simple pulse of electricity from above? We don't even know if it actually drops from a cloud to begin with, so the feat isn't usable for this, I'm afraid.

You can still have an outlier in the same tier range (tier 7-C vs 7-A for example), it really depends on how often similar level feats occur (Like two high tier 7-B feats would be considered good proof for a mid 7-A feat).

Yeah, sorry to say this, but the gap is still too noticeable and far beyond a round-up for that to apply.

I mean, you can clearly see Earth in the background, and the closest meteor is thousands of kilometers away (Mars' belt and all of that), so it could be more reasonable to consider that it's Star Dragon.

Yeah, yeah, the series holds plenty of upscaling, but the same can be said even for Mario and the ratings just remain with an "At least" either way. I'm going to remind that the 7.5 AP gap to one-shot thing is only applicable on Vs. threads, for indexing purposes this is unquantificable by default and so at most you only see a x2 gap used with each upscaling from one-shooting gap if no further information on this is given.

 

[Smashtwig]

If you really want to make that lightning argument a thing, well, Star Dragon does indeed light the entire night sky up when it launches its laser beam, much light how lightning does, its even referred to as lightning. But fine. Crashbolt's very description is that it "calls down lightning", and in LORE, the Azure Striker Septima is stated to "call down lightning"

There's a question that I do want to ask. When you first saw in the briefing of GV2, Tenjian's stage, were you surprised that he can do such a thing? With a Muse Shard? After all, every game, the world seems to be ending if the threat isn't stopped, Asimov basically took over all of the technology in the world in LAiX, all because the Muse is considered to be this worldbending power. Its amplification is mighty enough to be considered that the one who wields it would be the king or queen of a world, yet you're gonna tell me that they can be combated with evenly with a dinky tank of all things?

That's quite opinion based, again, if we were to take your logic into account, then every single new feat would be an outlier. Considering that this is a video game series, we don't have many feats to go off of.

We have basically nothing for Adepts, like, absolutely nothing for what they are capable of, Tenjian is all we got. I'm not saying that every adept in the world is at his level, no way in tarnation will I say that, but considering that Tenjian needed a Sumeragi Glaive, Muse Shard and Grimoire, and powerful Septima to get his 8-A feat, I think its safe to say that at least all of the boss enemies, Copen, and GV should be able to scale to him. Again, he's all we got. We essentially have a featless verse, aside from these tanks which are obviously no competition for the Adept bosses in the game, much like how someone like Mario stomps on Goombas all the time

 

[Smashtwig]

Oh right, one more thing

Gunvolt OVA still exists. Say what you want about it, but Inti endorsed the OVA, it went by them, they made an entire website for them. This means that they would believe that this is an accurate representation of the characters and what they can do, otherwise, they wouldn't have let it slide, they themselves, the makers of this very verse, believe this.

TBH, I forgot why we decided to omit this feat if we can allow the Drama CDs in. DMUA himself, who you asked about the whole Heat Feat thing, mentioned this very feat as what the verse has, and should be as powerful as this: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...Chili_Pepper_absorbing_Morioh_Electrical_Grid

A feat that is, well, 8-B to 8-A

I'm tired of repeating these arguments

 

[Bobsican]

Lasers and lightning are different things, so such an statement may straight up be too dubious for that, plus from what I'm finding in the ASG Wiki, Star Dragon stuff is more likely to be a laser, and sadly it may not be calculable anyways out of either being off-screen or just not having anything to properly pixel-scale.

"Call down lightning" is still too vague to assume it's "natural" cloud to ground lightning, it doesn't help that it's one of his boss moves against Copen, in an indoors place, so to assume that it's 8-C is sheer headcanon with the current stuff.

How I feel over a feat doesn't change how it's to be evaluated. 9-B feats often are remarked in a series as impressive in countless series, to say the least. There's verses where even 8-Cs can take over the world as I've said before, Hax and abilities exist to overpower regular weaponry, after all (See: countless verses ruled by 9-C zombies)
They would remain in the same tier, but not in the same level within it, remaining within a single tier and there still being AP gaps to stomp something below is pretty common. And as said before, such gaps are unquantificable, so at most you can only list a one-shooting level scaling chain if you want to detail how above they are.

Not necessarily, another feat within a closer range to 8-A (8-B, for example), or even Low 7-C could be used to support the cast being consistently within such a tier, context matters as well, after all.

Sorry, but an outlier is an outlier, this would be fine if it didn't lead into scaling the entire verse to a single feat that's far above the rest of the cast otherwise, as mentioned multiple times before.

Author intent is irrelevant outside WoG, we don't even take the OVA as canon, do we? We may as well say that GV got stomped by fodder if we go like that. I don't even remember any feat on it that goes beyond 9-A.

Absorbing all the energy over something doesn't necessarily means that you get to start making blows at the equivalent level of all of it at once without straight up immediately losing all of it on a single move. Either way I would like more context over the feat for this verse (As the calc seems to go for another verse) to be sure.

 

[Smashtwig]

It's really, the only thing we have gotten though. 8-A is, really, all we have on Adepts. Their sadly quite unquantifiable feats support that they can have the capacity to do something like this. From I think, tanks are treated like fodder in this verse.

We have, nothing other than Tenjian's feat, other than some fodder tanks. By the way, these tanks might as well be outliers too right? After all, we only get one feat by them, the Fazent destroying the first floor to a building. These rockets don't even do anything to any other building when Copen is escaping said building it the missiles are flying everywhere, so that could be an outlier too. These tanks just be 9-B then is what you're saying. Ah wait then, that would make them the same tier as say, the Sumeragi soldiers, who wield rocket launchers, but these rocket launchers don't do anything that normal ones can, they can't be as powerful, so they must be less than 9-B right? Flamethrower guys exist too, and flamethrowers are 9-C. So now everyone is 9-C? Okay, so the Sumeragi Assassins should be 9-C too, but wait hold on, Sumeragi soldiers only use swords, so that would make everyone on a lower 9-C level, and can only deflect GV's dinky darts, which by the way, barely scratch a single enemy. So that would mean that everyone should be on a low end of 9-C, maybe even a 10-A if we consider that GV's Bolts needed to be deflected to not be damaged by them, and an 9-A feat like what the Fazent did would be an outlier, because 10-B/9-C and 9-A is a huge gap. Maybe the 10-B thing was an overexaggeration, but the point is is that you can basically downgrade anything if you really put your thought into it, and only taking into account things that actually happen without any imagination or logical assumption. Like, GV gets killed by a Greed Snatcher bullet, are you really going to argue that he's 9-C? After all, its a proven fact that he's died to one, so that's a concrete feat that bullets can straight up kill Adepts.

With this logic, everything really is an outlier

Again, I don't really recall why the OVA was no longer taken into account, we've used CD Dramas, so OVAs seem like they'd be an okay source too.

 

[Bobsican]

CD Dramas really never went into a CRT over their canonicity from what I recall, nor is there any explicit proof that shows how they are canon and all of that from what I can find.

Anyways, unlike the 8-A feat, the 9-A ones are consistent out fo clearly showing a power level to upscale to, with it even being backed up by multiple feats, so it doens't go like that. I already agreed on "At least 9-A, possibly 8-A" as a rating for the cast, once again, as I can understand that the 9-A feats are pretty casual, so showcasing the higher-end is reasonable, it's just too dubious per the outlier standards to just list it "alone".

 

[Smashtwig]

Just what are these multiple feats then? Because from what I'm seeing, no feats exist because they don't destroy anything aside from that one cutscene.

 

[Bobsican]

Mmm... we can do a compromise and just do "At least 9-A, possibly 8-A" on the cast. 9-A can be defaulted to either this or the Nova thing, if it's calculable
Anyways, this is the best I could find within 9-A at the top of my head:
- This is taken as a mini-boss
- This mini-boss feat is easily 9-A

Anything else I can think of is either hax (Teseo), just AoE with no actual direct relation to AP to get any results beyond 9-A (Ghauri, Desna), or the outlier related to Tenjian.

I edited this reply later on, and it seems it replies your current question.

 

[Smashtwig]

Unfortunately, it doesn't. Because Merak's laser doesn't actually destroy things, and is an laser, so we can't quantify that. The Mantis also isn't quantifiable without assuming that it's comparable to modern day tanks, after all, it also doesn't destroy things. The only time we've seen a machination actually destroy things is that one Fazent's missiles you showed. With your logic that we cannot assume things about the Adepts capabilities, we should apply the same the tanks of this verse because they also don't have any feats.

In short, we'd would basically have only one tank feat, the Fazent, much like how we'd only have one Adept feat. This is only if we don't assume anything at all, like how these tanks should be more powerful than modern tanks today, or how that Adepts can digitize buildings, take over worlds, make giant mechs which requires an entire scrapyard factory, etc.

 

[Bobsican]

I guess I'll ask @SomebodyData once more to see what he thinks.

 

[Smashtwig]

Y'know, SomebodyData isn't the only person in the world who can give an opinion. I asked people on FCOC about this sort of thing to confirm. I've talked about outlier things in the past, from what I know, they seem to agree with me (not on this very specific topic, only one commented in agreement, but I've asked a lot of Outlier questions in the past, so I'll look over them, see what they say)

 

[Bobsican]

Well, he's the only staff member knowledgeable on the series, so he can help on actually getting some conclusion.

 

[Smashtwig]

Alright, I'm writing up a thing, just gimme a moment because I got some answers from the community

 

[DMUA]

If there's an 8-A feat and it doesn't actively break the plot or contradict lower feats requiring notable effort I don't see why we're jumping on top of "outlier"

 

[Bobsican]

Oh, then 8-A can stay, any lower feat from the cast is casual.

However, I still have to mention that all moves done by the cast that require effort are on a quite lower level (Up to 9-A now that I think about it), so I'm not too sure.

 

[Smashtwig]

Okay, I got some answers from a Calc guy, I'll be doing my best to translate what he said, but not bend them sound like its in the favor of it not being an outlier:

"I'm gonna go back to this outlier thing
Here are my questions:
1. If the verse has only one feat, say, 8-A, and the protag can fight the guy, is the protag 8-A
2. If the verse has that same 8-A guy, but there was another 9-A feat, made by a fodder tank robot thing, a miniboss that is basically just dispatched of easily because superpowers, is the 8-A guy an outlier
3. Same scenario, but there's more 9-A feats to compared to the 8-A, some of these feats are made from boss people, but most are fodder. The 8-A guy is as strong as these other boss people, is the 8-A guy an outlier?
right now that's all I can think of, for context…
4. Same scenario. 8-A guy's feat is freezing a city, the other bosses haven't shown much feats at all aside from some 9-A stuff, but they're seen devastating entire highways, making a giant mech that is likely the most powerful weapon ever, one which basically took over the entire world. A bunch of unquantifiable stuff, but these guys can do some really widespread damage, and are shown to be a constant threat of destruction. While these aren't quantifiable, the people who made this mass destruction are supposed to be comparable to 8-A guy, it's just that their feats cannot be properly defined, more like a "hey, just one our kind can cause city wide damage if left unchecked"
basically, my confusion comes from logical assumptions not being valid. If you're in a verse where people are annihilating main highways to the point where they completely unusable and have to be completely rebuilt, an entire orbital elevator (literally called Babel) is being taken over by a huge amount of hair construct, there's buildings being digitized, and there's a worldwide mind control threat AND the threat of all of technology in the world being controlled, is it really that hard to accept that a guy can freeze a city?"

"the first 2 aren't

3 might, depending on the effort of feats

Highway destruction sounds like it very easily would get above 9-A
And city wide damage could be 9-A but like

If there's a 8-A feat and they don't clearly show to be vastly lower in capacity they should be that”

"If being 8-A like, breaks the plot, like they need a special method or power up to achieve that kind of damage, that would be something you'd take 9-A as a priority over and if the 9-A feats take more effort and seem to be their actual limit
Otherwise just go for 8-A"

Essentially, what he says (from what I gather) is that it's more context based, based from verse to verse. Feats alone won't give a clear cut answer without the context. The 8-A feat essentially stands because Adepts aren't meant to be portrayed to be something that's massively lower than that.

This is clearly the case. GV is going like "dang, Tenjian did this, this Eden threat is the real deal" and Copen is like "Yeah, these guys are threats, they gotta go, this frozen city is evidence that these dudes are dangerous." They don't treat the other Adept bosses as "weaker" than Tenjian either, they're meant to be the same level of power, they use the same Grimores and the same Muse Shard. They actively treat Adepts with a Muse Shard as if they can really do this kind of thing. Tenjian being 8-A doesn’t break the plot, making it inconsistent with itself, it reinforces it, emphasizing how powerful an Adept is, especially with a Muse Shard. You could argue that certain SP Skills are 9-A, but they can also spam those like it’s no tomorrow, their stamina is noticeably depleted at all.

This dude is extraordinarily frustrated that I had to keep rephrasing the same question just to make the point clear that we're free to use 8-A, frankly, I don't think he can take anymore Gunvolt for like, an entire year now, maybe a decade. I'm straight up afraid to approach him with this topic again, because any sane human being would have had enough by now, like being asked out on a date repeatedly like, 10 times.