Guilty Gear: Wait... What?

[Bobsican]

It's clear that this is more "So long these pods give energy X has infinite power", rather than "Infinite power comes from the pods to X", so I agree with Overlord775.

 

[Overlord775]

This doesn't confirm that pods have limited energy cause in the entire scene only about 4 or 5 of the pods exploded due to losing stability while the rest were still in tact during the aftermath and even shown in the end of the story he still has the pods left.

the pods didn't explode because of losing stability, nothing states that, it's much more likely to have happened because of the weapon's kickback destroying them, just like how it was damaging Sol himself

 

[Ikelaggan]

the pods didn't explode because of losing stability, nothing states that, it's much more likely to have happened because of the weapon's kickback destroying them, just like how it was damaging Sol himself

Well, that just proves my point even further that they didn't run out of energy.

 

[Overlord775]

Not at all, batteries don't explode when they run out of energy

 

[Ikelaggan]

Not at all, batteries don't explode when they run out of energy

That's going under a assumption that these are normal batteries in first place, even in president's office how sol explains how these batteries have limiter on them and after sol took the limiter off the first one he only needed one to blow up the White House instead of all of them with the limiters on. Not to mention I already explained how these batteries are form of hardware sequencer when I explained how the theory of magic works.

 

[Overlord775]

That's going under a assumption that these are normal batteries in first place, even in president's office how sol explains how these batteries have limiter on them and after sol took the limiter off the first one he only needed one to blow up the White House instead of all of them with the limiters on.

A idea that takes much less assumtions than assuming they lose stability with no evidence without and didn't explode for unknown factors

them having limiters doesn't matter at all

also, the sheer fact that that one exploding would only destroy the white house proves they don't have infinite energy

Not to mention I already explained how these batteries are form of hardware sequencer when I explained how the theory of magic works.

and i am going to explain you common sense, if they self-refilled themselves they wouldn't be batteries, they would be engines

batteries store energy, not produce it

 

[Ikelaggan]

A idea that takes much less assumtions than assuming they lose stability with no evidence without and didn't explode for unknown factors

them having limiters doesn't matter at all

The limiter does matter cause one became more potent in destructive capability without a limiter than several with a limiters on.

and i am going to explain you common sense, if they self-refilled themselves they wouldn't be batteries, they would be engines

batteries store energy, not produce it

Zeal
The most commonly used form of energy in this world. zeal is a liquid in most cases most cases, and is combustible. It can be used in internal-conbustion engines, and is also a explosive material.
However, placed it into a Zipod, makes it portable, turning it into something akin to a battery. Note, t he efficiency of transfer varies greatly depending on the quality of the Zilpod. With the same amount of of zeal, delivering it through a Zilpod as opposed to burning it through combustion is a more efficient delivery method.
Zeal used for the purpose of lighting areas have been subsidized by the government's, and is distributed at extremely low rates. Zeal is delivered to individual homes via a special Z-cable that is wired through city infrastructure. The telephone poles and "electric line" like objects you see in guilty gear all serve this purpose. Zipods can also be found in stores and purchased by customers.
Nonetheless, the beauty of zeal lies in the fact that you can carry a certain degree of "magic" itself. For example, highly specialized Zilpods come with a certain program that allows the user to cause material change to objects around it, opposed to simply being used as a battery. The customer, however, will generally use them for their "fuel" or "battery" value. [GG WORLD page 363- GG strive]
Spirits Type-48 is a battery that stores Zeal.
As the zeal within it is highly combustible, it can also be used as a substitute for gunpowder, as igniting a large quantity of it will cause a massive explosion.
In addition, modifying its internal structure can increase the zeal potency, which will cause a catastrophic-level explosion. The zeal turns green when the alteration is made. [GG world page 218 -GG strive]

 

[Ikelaggan]

I-no's true identity is that of a magical foci. During the crusades, mankind's desire for a "better tomorrow" were concentrated into a single entity within the backyard. Interpreting this existence as a error that would destroy the world, the backyard severed it away, and thus, I-no was born. When I-no was detached from the backyard, she was bestowed with irregular powers that could prevent the collapse of the backyard, making her an all-powerful entity.
[GG world page 056 -GG strive]

 

[The_Impress]

@The_Impress

What do you think about the arguments here?

I mean I don't feel like I can make claims on consistency here, either attack definitions or character scaling, considering I know nothing about the verse.

We can re-contact the moderator who approved the Low 1-C, that being Ultima Reality, to give input on it being questioned, rest we can leave for these fellas to sort out themselves.

Also, this is directed at the people in thread in general, I don't see many scans being posted here, which is what's preferred. From my understanding clips of cutscenes should me abundant on web, no?

 

[Overlord775]

The limiter does matter cause one became more potent in destructive capability without a limiter than several with a limiters on.

even wth all limiters off they would just have destroyed half of the globe, so not rellevant

Zeal
The most commonly used form of energy in this world. zeal is a liquid in most cases most cases, and is combustible. It can be used in internal-conbustion engines, and is also a explosive material.
However, placed it into a Zipod, makes it portable, turning it into something akin to a battery. Note, t he efficiency of transfer varies greatly depending on the quality of the Zilpod. With the same amount of of zeal, delivering it through a Zilpod as opposed to burning it through combustion is a more efficient delivery method.
Zeal used for the purpose of lighting areas have been subsidized by the government's, and is distributed at extremely low rates. Zeal is delivered to individual homes via a special Z-cable that is wired through city infrastructure. The telephone poles and "electric line" like objects you see in guilty gear all serve this purpose. Zipods can also be found in stores and purchased by customers.
Nonetheless, the beauty of zeal lies in the fact that you can carry a certain degree of "magic" itself. For example, highly specialized Zilpods come with a certain program that allows the user to cause material change to objects around it, opposed to simply being used as a battery. The customer, however, will generally use them for their "fuel" or "battery" value. [GG WORLD page 363- GG strive]
Spirits Type-48 is a battery that stores Zeal.
As the zeal within it is highly combustible, it can also be used as a substitute for gunpowder, as igniting a large quantity of it will cause a massive explosion.
In addition, modifying its internal structure can increase the zeal potency, which will cause a catastrophic-level explosion. The zeal turns green when the alteration is made. [GG world page 218 -GG strive]

it litterally says they are batteries that stores Zeal, not produce it

I-no's true identity is that of a magical foci. During the crusades, mankind's desire for a "better tomorrow" were concentrated into a single entity within the backyard. Interpreting this existence as a error that would destroy the world, the backyard severed it away, and thus, I-no was born. When I-no was detached from the backyard, she was bestowed with irregular powers that could prevent the collapse of the backyard, making her an all-powerful entity.
[GG world page 056 -GG strive]

Mind showing proof of that scaling to her physical abilities ?

 

[Ikelaggan]

Mind showing proof of that scaling to her physical abilities ?

She's still able to fight against Ky and Nago physically, has fought against Jack-O and axl low physically.

 

[Keeweed]

She's still able to fight against Ky and Nago physically, has fought against Jack-O and axl low physically.

What does have to do with I-no’s powers scaling to her physically. Those characters are getting their ap from her.

Also I still haven’t found the bedman backyard scene, but I know it is probably there. Gg rev 2’s story mode is just a bit large and I was busy and had a headache yesterday. So I’ll look again today when I have the chance.

I just want to say Sol’s way of causing Absolute World definitely is environmental destruction if the reason I read earlier was correct. Two people can’t exist at a place at the same time and when they do absolute world floods out, that doesn’t have anything to do with them and everything to do with how the backyard works.

So focusing on Bedman and I-no. I-no having the backyards power won’t mean anything, it reminds me of the final boss of astral chain, you can have the power of a place, but that power can be environmental destruction or hax. When we see I-no’s power it’s constantly hax with no physical feats to back it up (her feats also capped at 5-C even with hax, so there’s that).

Considering absolute world is entirely hax based to begin with, everything revolving around the backyard and absolute world just being hax seems much more consistent, both with how god I-no works and with the physical feats the other characters show.

Though I still need to watch how bedman does absolute world, though this could be a Blazblue scenario where they cause a low 1-C event through hax.

 

[Ikelaggan]

I'm bringing up ki cause this one kry factor in magic literally denounces any form of notions that magic can't be applied as physical AP, one ki users have consistently be shown to physical stat Amps from harnessing ki like kliff underson all the way back in GG1 with his being even to temporarily amp his strength back to his years during the crusades.

 

[Keeweed]

But did anyone use ki to preform the backyard feat. As far as I remember Bedman and I-no don’t use ki. Also just because magic can be used to increase your physical stats doesn’t mean that amp scale to the specific act of causing absolute world. Especially when the other way to cause absolute world is environmental destruction.

I’m pretty sure Blazblue has it that people can amp themselves with their abilities yet we still scale all their low 1-C as hax and environmental destruction.

 

[Ikelaggan]

But did anyone use ki to preform the backyard feat. As far as I remember Bedman and I-no don’t use ki. Also just because magic can be used to increase your physical stats doesn’t mean that amp scale to the specific act of causing absolute world. Especially when the other way to cause absolute world is environmental destruction.

I’m pretty sure Blazblue has it that people can amp themselves with their abilities yet we still scale all their low 1-C as hax and environmental destruction.

Ki is a established principle magic in theory that all magic origin points back to the backyard, meaning the direct backyard magic is a mixture off all know and unknown principles of magic theory thus going beyond the 12 steps.

 

[Keeweed]

I would say then they technically don’t use Ki as they use the more direct magic, but even then does that matter.

Their amp still needs evidence it’s on par with causing absolute world, and they don’t have any physical feat anywhere close to absolute world to back that up. Also absolute world’s effects are entirely hax, so just causing it isn’t physical unless the story makes it clear that it would scale physically.

 

[Keeweed]

Like, just being said to have the power to cause absolute world doesn’t mean that power would be physical for the character. Absolute world is an event based entirely around hax, the story would need to go out of its way to state the characters are as physically strong as the event.

 

[Ikelaggan]

I would say then they technically don’t use Ki as they use the more direct magic, but even then does that matter.

Their amp still needs evidence it’s on par with causing absolute world, and they don’t have any physical feat anywhere close to absolute world to back that up. Also absolute world’s effects are entirely hax, so just causing it isn’t physical unless the story makes it clear that it would scale physically.

The dragon install is physical stat amp that on par with the aboslute world given Ariel's says that if he dragon installs it'll amplify the information flares and dragon install has shown be consistently a amp in both physical and magical power, not to mention this debunks any notion of the Absolute world only being possible through passive existence of Adam and eve only since it's clearly an active thing.

 

[Keeweed]

That doesn’t prove he’s as physically strong as it. All that means is the information flare will spread faster. He isn’t physically moving or altaring the flare, him being in that state just has the flare naturally increase faster. It’s still from his passive existence. It’s just that dragon install’s passive existence is worse (or better depending on how you word it) than base Sol’s.

Heck the last thing Sol wants is for the information flare to happen, so it really is just his existence causing it and he can’t do anything about it. He’s actively trying to not have it happen, not the other way around.

 

[Ikelaggan]

That doesn’t prove he’s as physically strong as it. All that means is the information flare will spread faster. He isn’t physically moving or altaring the flare, him being in that state just has the flare naturally increase faster. It’s still from his passive existence. It’s just that dragon install’s passive existence is worse (or better depending on how you word it) than base Sol’s.

Heck last I checked the last Sol wants is for the information flare to happen, so it really is just his existence causing it and he can’t do anything about it.

Accept It is physically altering it, cause information flares have been physically held back with ki when kum haehyun had to hold it back it put actual physical strain on her body to use that much ki.

 

[Keeweed]

Putting physical strain on the body doesn’t mean she’s physically holding it back. I can think of many series that has magic physically drain or harm the user despite them clearly not scaling to the spell or magic itself.

All the strain means is that the magic is taking a toll on them, it doesn’t mean they are physically pushing back the information flare.

 

[Keeweed]

Also Kum uses a mech suit to fight so that makes the magic scaling physically to her make even less sense as she’s clearly not a physical fighter.

 

[Overlord775]

"However, each time he uses it, the "seed"[1] of the Absolute World[2] inside of Sol accelerates in growth, causing notable changes to his appearance and abilities,[1] and acquiring the Backyard's abilities".

So yeah, it causes information flares indirectly, so it doesn't scale to his physicals

 

[Jasonsith]

I believe the most direct approach is:

• List who is Low 1-C by direct feat or valid objective statements.
• List who are comparable of those Low 1-C
• For those who don't, list out what feats they have and who scales.
• Rinse and repeat. Until everyone and every form is tiered.

 

[Keeweed]

But that’s what we are discussing right now. Whether these feats are actually direct low 1-C feats or not.

Granted I think the feats that don’t revolve around absolute world should be posted, but that can be done after discussing absolute world more.

Also currently everyone is comparable to the low 1-Cs, a lot just backscale. They can fight the high tiers when they are a bit weakened, but the gap shouldn’t be beyond infinite if they stay tier 1 and it shouldn’t be super massive if they are downgraded.

 

[Ikelaggan]

Also Kum uses a mech suit to fight so that makes the magic scaling physically to her make even less sense as she’s clearly not a physical fighter.

Except one every single ki is show amping attacks that undeniably physical like may with her dolphins, chipp with his beta blade. Plus how do you know the mech it's self isn't being amplified by her ki physically wise? Cause she's able to fight with the mech, it's the only she uses it is to hide her identity.

 

[Keeweed]

Once again the amp doesn’t have a reason to scale to information flares. You, yourself, said that stopping the information flare starts to hurt her due to the strain of the magic. But that’s doesn’t happen when she fights.

Does she physically do something on par with what the information flares can do. Because the information flares are hax and she stops it with her hax.

As I stated earlier Blazblue and other similar series have characters amp themselves with the abilities their hax comes from, but they don’t scale to their hax.

Also when it comes to the mech now you are making a guess that is never stated. We don’t go by “how do you knows” on this site we go by what is stated and shown. And what is shown is Kum being a fighter reliant on hax that physically fights with a mech.

 

[Keeweed]

Sol’s absolute world is clearly environmental destruction and he actively tries to prevent it and fails. But, Kum, a non physical fighter can physically stop it despite being physically vastly inferior to Sol. That’s what happens if it’s physical, it creates a circular scaling chain.

If it’s hax all that would mean is that Kum would be better at controlling information flares then Sol (at least towards the outcome she wants).

 

[Ikelaggan]

Well one big glaring issue is that I not sure if it was Keeweed or Overlord775, but it was accepted and grandstander that sol's blast towards I-no changing the probability from 0% to infinity was physically changing the probably, so saying any for of magic including ki, backyard, etc can't be anyway physically altered is a literal fallacy in your logic.

 

[Keeweed]

You completely misunderstood that. What you are saying would mean I’m physically altering probability itself. What I was saying is that probability matters on physically stuff. If every side of a dice has 6 then no matter how you roll it you are always going to get 6. You don’t need to physically change probability itself, you need to just change the dice.

Edit: If I misread your post, sorry if I came or come off as rude.

In I-no’s case he didn’t change probability, he shot her with an attack that had high 3-A attack potency and she has no chance of survival due to that ap.

With backyard stuff they are using hax to keep it at bay. That doesn’t have to do with the probability stuff at all you are conflating the two. They are completely different scenarios with different context.

 

[Ikelaggan]

You completely misunderstood that. What you are saying would mean I’m physically altering probability itself. What I was saying is that probability matters on physically stuff. If every side of a dice has 6 then no matter how you roll it you are always going to get 6. You don’t need to physically change probability itself, you need to just change the dice.

Edit: If I misread your post, sorry if I came or come off as rude.

In I-no’s case he didn’t change probability, he shot her with an attack that had high 3-A attack potency and she has no chance of survival due to that ap.

With backyard stuff they are using hax to keep it at bay. That doesn’t have to do with the probability stuff at all you are conflating the two. They are completely different scenarios with different context.

Your still saying that magic can still affect things physically and not purely through hax, which through out this entire thread I've been trying to say that Magic can be applied physically. Even the Aboslute world is no exception to this rule given that everything from the aboslute world scales from the backyard and even in shiryo's blog, the backyard is composed of high density information that governs all reality, any normal creature is immediately crushed by that wealth of data.

 

[Keeweed]

All life is killed by information manipulation, which is hax. Just because some magic can have be physically attacks that doesn’t mean their physical magic would scale to absolute world.

None of there physically feats line up with information flares and absolute world, while both of those things are entirely hax dependent.

 

[The_Impress]

Ike, can you summarize your proofing for Absolute World scaling to physicals, in a single post?

 

[Ikelaggan]

Ike, can you summarize your proofing for Absolute World scaling to physicals, in a single post?

Pretty much it'll the shortest summary I can give for the Aboslute world is that it merges the backyard with the physical universe and multiple characters have been shown to be able affect it, cause it, or prevent the full scale effect from happening.

 

[Keeweed]

Pretty much it'll the shortest summary I can give for the Aboslute world is that it merges the backyard with the physical universe and multiple characters have been shown to be able affect it, cause it, or prevent the full scale effect from happening.

None of that explains why it would scale physically to the characters. He was asking for every reason why you think it should physically scale to the characters summarized in one post.

 

[Antvasima]

I mean I don't feel like I can make claims on consistency here, either attack definitions or character scaling, considering I know nothing about the verse.

We can re-contact the moderator who approved the Low 1-C, that being Ultima Reality, to give input on it being questioned, rest we can leave for these fellas to sort out themselves.

Also, this is directed at the people in thread in general, I don't see many scans being posted here, which is what's preferred. From my understanding clips of cutscenes should me abundant on web, no?

@Ultima_Reality

Would you be willing to help out here please?

 

[Ikelaggan]

All life is killed by information manipulation, which is hax. Just because some magic can have be physically attacks that doesn’t mean their physical magic would scale to absolute world.

None of there physically feats line up with information flares and absolute world, while both of those things are entirely hax dependent.

Again that's under the assumption that it's killing them by just deconstruction them into information and not the information crushing them, which established in verse that informational mass is a measurable physical unit, so saying information Manipulation is purely only a hax wouldn't inherently be right.

 

[Keeweed]

Everything in the link I read said the information flare is hack that destabilizes the information already in the universe. Information has mass, the flare isn’t that mass it’s a warping of that mass. The text you linked even says low levels of flares don’t effect humans. Which won’t make sense if it was a physical phenomenon. Also that still doesn’t explain why causing or prevent absolute world is done physical.

 

[Ikelaggan]

Everything in the link I read said the information flare is hack that destabilizes the information already in the universe. Information has mass, the flare isn’t that mass it’s a warping of that mass. The text you linked even says low levels of flares don’t effect humans. Which won’t make sense if it was a physical phenomenon. Also that still doesn’t explain why causing or prevent absolute world is done physical.

I'm talking about the scans with Dr.pardigm in them.

 

[Keeweed]

I'm talking about the scans with Dr.pardigm in them.

The blog and the scans say the same thing.