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Green lantern (hal Jordan) CRT.

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Also as a reminder, Hal scales above Guardians. Even though we’re saying Krona doesn’t physically scale to the emotional entities, he’s still a Guardian, and Hal was able to kill him.

And this isn’t the only time he’s been shown and/or stated to be superior to a Guardian.
 
Scarecrow doesn’t seem to be doing much, Spectre’s eye is fine the next time we see it.
 
I thought we all agreed on Atleast shown the consistently that sinestro scales close to hal jordan, so its debatable.
We all know eye is a vulnerable organ and he only stabbed him nothing more.
Easily consistent.
Easily consistent and hal easily scales to parallax hal and all parallax hosts in battle.
 
@Antvasima

If we scale Hal to Krona at the end of the War of the Green Lanterns Arc, it would just be At least 4-B.

I've already said my piece against Black Lantern Crispus Allen being 2-C.

What do the other mods think?
 
Well, I think that you make sense as usual.

We might need some kind of footnote explanation about this in Hal Jordan's page though.
 
If we scale Hal to Krona at the end of the War of the Green Lanterns Arc, it would just be At least 4-B.
You've forgotten that krona tanked the big bang right a universal or multiversal big bang. And in post crisis he controls ion the very embodiment of willpower as hal overrides the ring command not to be able to kill a guardian yet hal Jordan killed krona.
Same as hal jordan hurting and tanking a punch from SB-Prime.
And hal jordan scaling to parallax hal jordan in post crisis books which I dropped scans also.
And also damaged a black lantern spectre which you didn't debunk well as it's power level was still believed to be the spectre's own. Which hal damaged on multiple occasions and parallax beating true form spectre which hal jordan has shown to be consistently scaled to.
And let's not forget parallax Barry allen also.

And you didn't talk about post flashpoint/rebirth.
 
Yeah, the only one of the “anti-feats” against BL Spectre having 2-C durability that actually somewhat works is Atrocitus drawing blood from him, but iirc, we don’t accept small amounts of damage like that as being valid for scaling.

Everything else is either not damaging Spectre at all (Scarecrow), or it involves Hal (the person that’s currently being argued, so he can’t be used as an anti-feat) or Sinestro (who possibly scales to Hal).

Plus I gave scans that show BL Spectre taking hits from Parallax.
Also in that same issue, BL Spectre was able to withstand attacks from Parallax, so still 2-C durability.
Unless I missed something, there’s no indication that BL Spectre is taking damage from Parallax’s attack in the scan I gave. There’s also here, where BL Spectre doesn’t take any damage from being hit by Parallax’s construct.
And I explained that they thought the BL Spectre was relative to the original Spectre.
Also the statement where they say Spectre’s power - “You know first hand the power The Spectre contains” - eclipses the Guardians as well as Hal’s statement - “Because we need the one thing that might be able to beat The Spectre” - meaning Parallax, would imply that the Black Lantern Spectre is on a similar level of power to the original. If it was drastically weaker, both of these statements wouldn’t make any sense.
 
@Teezar
  • You've forgotten that krona tanked the big bang right a universal or multiversal big bang.
    • When did this happen?
  • And in post crisis he controls ion the very embodiment of willpower as hal overrides the ring command not to be able to kill a guardian yet hal Jordan killed krona.
    • Ion was possessing a different guardian at the time. Also, Hal's will overriding a ring command isn't quantifiable for AP.
  • Same as hal jordan hurting and tanking a punch from SB-Prime.
    • As I said, we shouldn't scale Hal to Superboy from 1 punch when lower-tier characters were drawing blood from Superboy earlier in the event.
  • And hal jordan scaling to parallax hal jordan in post crisis books which I dropped scans also.
    • As you said earlier, this is New 52 Hal with Krona's Gauntlet.
  • And also damaged a black lantern spectre which you didn't debunk well as it's power level was still believed to be the spectre's own. Which hal damaged on multiple occasions and parallax beating true form spectre which hal jordan has shown to be consistently scaled to.
    • They did not mistake the Black Lantern Spectre for being the true Spectre. Hal wonders why their attacks aren't working. Ganthet says "The Spirit of Vengeance is being held within this black lantern. You know first hand the power the Spectre contains. It nearly eclipses our own." They see Spectre trapped inside the fake ring.
  • And let's not forget parallax Barry allen also.
    • Parallax Flash was stomping and playing with Hal and drawing blood, not even taking a visible injury from Hal's attacks.
  • And you didn't talk about post flashpoint/rebirth.
    • I'd prefer that we focus on one era at a time.
 
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They said nothing about the BL CA being as powerful as the True Spectre.
Why would they make those statements if they aren’t in reference to the thing they’re fighting in that exact moment? That’s illogical.

And if BL Allen wasn’t a 2-C, why would Hal say that it was necessary to bring out Parallax? (And before you say it, Parallax being necessary does not prevent Hal himself from scaling).
 
My point is that the durability scaling chain you are proposing doesn't work with the story.

You say that
Hal Jordan = Parallax = True Spectre = BL Crispus Allen
 
You say that
Hal Jordan = Parallax = True Spectre = BL Crispus Allen
Hold the phone, that’s not even close to what I’m saying. Let me quickly explain this.

Black Lantern Crispus should, at the absolute bare minimum, be comparable to his base self, who is a 2-C. The Guardians and Hal also treat him as being just as strong as The Spectre.

Parallax is a 2-C that is also superior to Spectre, as Hal stated that he can defeat Spectre and Spectre is stated to be afraid of him. Despite being weaker, Crispus could take hits from Parallax.

Hal can damage Crispus on multiple occasions and even overpower his grip, but he can’t defeat him. He can still fight Crispus though, which would be therefore 2-C. Couple that with Hal taking hits from SBP, GLs not being retconned by the Crisis, Hal fighting someone that could fight Ion during Ion’s solo run, and a high-end of 2-C becomes consistent.

And as an overall reminder, nobody here is arguing that Hal is always a 2-C. What we’re going for is ‘4-B, up to 2-C’ or something like ‘4-B, 2-C at peak.’

This would be a more accurate scale: Peak Hal Jordan =< Black Lantern Crispus Allen => Base Crispus Allen < Parallax
 
Thank you for helping out Firestorm and Tracer.
 
When did this happen?
Here
Ion was possessing a different guardian at the time.
But it was krona stated to control the embodiment of willpower itself.
Hal's will overriding a ring command isn't quantifiable for AP.
I basically see it as limited resistance to law manipulation but what the heck.
Parallax Flash was stomping and playing with Hal and drawing blood, not even taking a visible injury from Hal's attacks.
My scan shows hal jordan was easily on par with him.
 
Here

But it was krona stated to control the embodiment of willpower itself.

I basically see it as limited resistance to law manipulation but what the heck.

My scan shows hal jordan was easily on par with him.
  • Nothing in that scan implies that he took force equal to a big bang. Such a force would have at least destroyed the planet let alone just his machine. Also, it's clearly shown in Post-Crisis that the new standard for Guardians is below Galaxy level.
  • As stated and shown by Krona, he was once the keeper of all the entities. He basically tamed the Entities like a dog owner.
  • In what way is Law Manipulation involved?
  • As I said, throughout that entire fight, Parallax Flash took no visible damage.
 
Regarding Black Lantern Crispus Allen:

It's shown that the lanterns and the Guardians in the battle can harm its construct body.

It's displayed that BL CA has high regeneration, quickly getting his hand, face, jaw, eye, and chest regenerated. This is the reason that why their attacks aren't working. Unlike the other Black Lanterns they fought before, their attacks aren't causing significant enough damage to BL CA's body to sever the black ring's connection. In the end, they needed to attack the ring directly.

Black Lantern Crispus Allen's Durability < Lantern's and Guardian's AP

When they say they need someone that might be able to beat the Spectre, it's done arbitrarily. Can Parralax fight comparably with the Spectre? Yes. However, they were already damaging BL CA in the same way as Parallax if not more. All Parallax Hal did was rip out an eye, penetrate his chest, and destroy the ring inside. Any of them could have done the same if they didn't fall for the facade.

The scaling chain is just:

Black Lantern Crispus Allen's Durability < Lantern's and Guardian's AP < Parallax Hal = CA Spectre

Black Lantern Crispus Allen's Regen and the hidden ring was the only factor stopping the Lanterns and the Guardian.
 
Nothing in that scan implies that he took force equal to a big bang. Such a force would have at least destroyed the planet let alone just his machine.
According to DC database it is actually a multiversal big bang.Also, it's clearly shown in Post-Crisis that the new standard for Guardians is below Galaxy level.
As stated and shown by Krona, he was once the keeper of all the entities. He basically tamed the Entities like a dog owner.
It's pretty obvious krona scales above the entities.

In what way is Law Manipulation involved?
In the sense it's a rule/law that the rings can never be used to kill a guardian which hal jordan overridden via willpower and overpowered krona while he controlled ion the embodiment of willpower in that battle and killed krona.
Same way hal jordan hal jordan will can create a lantern ring for only himself or make himself a living construct.

I just saw it as resistance to law manipulation as their's a law on the rings making them unable to kill guardians.
As I said, throughout that entire fight, Parallax Flash took no visible damage.
Hal jordan literally tanked all his attacks like nothing and was fighting him on even terms tbh. And I wouldn't see any reason why hal jordan would want to destroy Barry's body to save him from parallax. He was Clearly trying to restrain him.
 
Any of them could have done the same if they didn't fall for the facade.
Any of them?I doubt, only parallax hal did which base hal Jordan has always had an even brawl with.

Based on consistent stories.
Parallax hal jordan = hal Jordan base on every encounter either via willpower or emotional.
 
When they say they need someone that might be able to beat the Spectre, it's done arbitrarily.
Any of them could have done the same if they didn't fall for the facade.
Alright, this is straight up headcanon and honestly nonsensical to even suggest.

As Spectre himself said, Parallax has more blood on his hands than any being aside from the Anti-Monitor. Hal and Ganthet know how dangerous Parallax is. Hell, Hal should know that better than anyone.

Why in the name of all things good and holy would they release such a dangerous entity, let alone letting it fuse with the strongest person there, if any one of them could’ve bodied BL Spectre on their own? The answer is very simple: they couldn’t have.

The Guardians and other Lanterns “harming” Spectre was already addressed, and I provided a scan of Spectre being hit by Parallax and taking little damage besides being knocked back.

If Anti-Monitor can scale to an explosion that mutilated him, Spectre can scale to an attack that just knocked him back.
 
According to DC database it is actually a multiversal big bang.

It's pretty obvious krona scales above the entities.

In the sense it's a rule/law that the rings can never be used to kill a guardian which hal jordan overridden via willpower and overpowered krona while he controlled ion the embodiment of willpower in that battle and killed krona.
Same way hal jordan hal jordan will can create a lantern ring for only himself or make himself a living construct.

I just saw it as resistance to law manipulation as their's a law on the rings making them unable to kill guardians.

Hal jordan literally tanked all his attacks like nothing and was fighting him on even terms tbh. And I wouldn't see any reason why hal jordan would want to destroy Barry's body to save him from parallax. He was Clearly trying to restrain him.
  • How does a cosmic bolt equates to a big bang.
  • In what way has Krona shown AP above the Entities and not just taming them?
  • The Green Lantern rings are a piece of technology that has been programmed to prevent hurting Guardians. It's not a law of nature or reality.
  • Hal Jordan did not tank the attacks like they were nothing. We clearly see Parallax Flash draw blood.
 
@LordTracer

We see that the Lantern constructs in the fight are able to damage and penetrate BL CA's body. If they knew the truth, what would be stopping them from going into the body and destroying the ring.

If Atrocitus and the others also made big stake or hook constructs, I have little doubt that they would do comparable damage as Hal's and Sinestro's.
 
Atrocitus was causing extremely shallow wounds, and as I believe you’ve said before, we don’t count “chip damage” as being valid for scaling.

It’s made very clear that the only one that can legitimately defeat Spectre is Parallax. It makes absolutely zero sense (as well as being extremely out-of-character) for them to bring him out if he wasn’t necessary. And aside from that, Hal and Sinestro are by far the strongest people in that group, so it is extremely unlikely that anyone there could’ve done what they did.

Also again, I gave a scan of Spectre taking a hit from Parallax that didn’t damage him
 
How does a cosmic bolt equates to a big bang
DC database already stated it as a multiversal big bang you can read crisis on infinite earths again if you wanna clarify it.
In what way has Krona shown AP above the Entities and not just taming them?
For him to be able to tame this entities shows his on their teir or most likely higher.
  • The Green Lantern rings are a piece of technology that has been programmed to prevent hurting Guardians. It's not a law of nature or reality.
  • Hal Jordan did
I never said it's a law of reality it's just a law on the rings even if a lantern wants to kill a guardian they can't.
Hal Jordan did not tank the attacks like they were nothing. We clearly see Parallax Flash draw blood.
Yes it shows the attacks damaged him but he kept on fighting back. He literally tanked all hits like nothing.
 
Atrocitus was causing extremely shallow wounds, and as I believe you’ve said before, we don’t count “chip damage” as being valid for scaling.

It’s made very clear that the only one that can legitimately defeat Spectre is Parallax. It makes absolutely zero sense (as well as being extremely out-of-character) for them to bring him out if he wasn’t necessary. And aside from that, Hal and Sinestro are by far the strongest people in that group, so it is extremely unlikely that anyone there could’ve done what they did.

Also again, I gave a scan of Spectre taking a hit from Parallax that didn’t damage him
That was Attrocitus using only his hands. It's obvious that his constructs would be stronger and comparable to the others. You're implying that Hal or Sinestro would be doing more damage than Attrocitus if they only used their hands as well.

In regards to that scan, we can't see the damage behind the yellow light in that panel. but we do see BL CA pushed back and smashed into a building. Parallax Hal's next two acts are ripping out an eye and burrowing into his chest. It would be consistent that the initial chest blast caused damage behind the yellow light.

If you're trying to interpret BL CA tanking the initial attack with no damage, you would be implying that Parallax Hal < Hal.
 
DC database already stated it as a multiversal big bang you can read crisis on infinite earths again if you wanna clarify it.

For him to be able to tame this entities shows his on their teir or most likely higher.

I never said it's a law of reality it's just a law on the rings even if a lantern wants to kill a guardian they can't.

Yes it shows the attacks damaged him but he kept on fighting back. He literally tanked all hits like nothing.
  • You're not explaining how you quantified the cosmic bolt's AP.
  • Taming creatures has no direct correlation to AP.
  • That's not how we define Law Manipulation. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Law_Manipulation
    • The ability to manipulate "laws" that automatically apply themselves upon reality, referring to rules, mandates and even fundamental logical principles/truths/facts that are the way in which a reality may function.
  • You can't "tank a hit like nothing" and be damaged the hit. It wouldn't be "like nothing" hit them then.
 
I trust Firestorm's sense of judgement and unbiased rational matter-of-fact research, as usual.
 
It's obvious that his constructs would be stronger and comparable to the others.
No, it’s not obvious that he’d be comparable to the others. What suggests that this would be the case?
In regards to that scan, we can't see the damage behind the yellow light in that panel. but we do see BL CA pushed back and smashed into a building. Parallax Hal's next two acts are ripping out an eye and burrowing into his chest. It would be consistent that the initial chest blast caused damage behind the yellow light.
It would be an assumption to say it caused damage if we don’t see any damage.

And this wasn’t even the scan I was referring to, I was referring to the one of Parallax hitting Spectre with a lantern construct.
If you're trying to interpret BL CA tanking the initial attack with no damage, you would be implying that Parallax Hal < Hal.
Mm, no, I wouldn’t. Because Parallax is clearly capable of damaging Spectre, but Spectre can also take hits from him.

And this is aside from the fact that this would be Hal at his absolute peak strength, not his usual 4-B, and peak Hal threw hands with Parallax Sinestro in Post-Flashpoint (which we treat as being just as strong as Post-Crisis) so it wouldn’t even be a contradiction
 
You're not explaining how you quantified the cosmic bolt's AP.
I said DC database already said it's a multiversal big bang and it's almost as if you di
Taming creatures has no direct correlation to AP
At most without any outside power it means you scale above them especially as this emotional entities are literally one of the main aspects in the multiverse itself. Plus he also tamed entities like rage,greed and fear.
You can't "tank a hit like nothing" and be damaged the hit. It wouldn't be "like nothing" hit them then.
He wasn't knocked out or defeated by it despite he bleed it doesn't mean he didn't tank it.
 
No, it’s not obvious that he’d be comparable to the others. What suggests that this would be the case?

It would be an assumption to say it caused damage if we don’t see any damage.

And this wasn’t even the scan I was referring to, I was referring to the one of Parallax hitting Spectre with a lantern construct.

Mm, no, I wouldn’t. Because Parallax is clearly capable of damaging Spectre, but Spectre can also take hits from him.

And this is aside from the fact that this would be Hal at his absolute peak strength, not his usual 4-B, and peak Hal threw hands with Parallax Sinestro in Post-Flashpoint (which we treat as being just as strong as Post-Crisis) so it wouldn’t even be a contradiction
  • A correction on my part. Atrocitus didn't start making constructs until Brightest Day as most Red Lanterns use their bare hands or Napalm breath. This doesn't mean Atrocitus is lacking in power. RL Atrocitus has repeatedly broken YL Sinestro's and GL Hal's constructs in Blackest Night. Even a ringless Atrocitus could break from GL Sinestro's constructs.
  • I didn't treat my statement as a fact. It was a hypothesis based on the surrounding context. If Parallax Hal is stronger than the Lanterns and Guardians in the group that also damaged BL CA's body and that his next two attacks did damage BL CA's body, I consider it likely that the initial attack did cause damage behind the yellow light.
  • The scan you gave for Parallax Sinestro VS Hal comes from Rebirth's Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps Vol 1 #7 December 2016
    • After creating a ring with Krona's Gauntlet, Hall overcomes Parallax Sinestro with Raw Willpower.
 
I said DC database already said it's a multiversal big bang and it's almost as if you di

At most without any outside power it means you scale above them especially as this emotional entities are literally one of the main aspects in the multiverse itself. Plus he also tamed entities like rage,greed and fear.

He wasn't knocked out or defeated by it despite he bleed it doesn't mean he didn't tank it.
  • I'm aware of the big bang that Kron viewed from his time window, but you didn't explain why the cosmic bolt equates to the big bang he was viewing. Said Cosmic Bolt only destroyed his machine let alone the room.
  • Series such as Pokemon beg to differ on people taming beasts without outside power.
  • You can say he tanked the hit, but you can't say it "was like nothing" That would be "no-selling" the attack.
 
Firestorm808:

What do you think that we should do here?
 
The scan you gave for Parallax Sinestro VS Hal comes from Rebirth's Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps Vol 1 #7 December 2016
I’m aware of where it comes from, we currently treat Post-Crisis and Post-Flashpoint Hal as being the same.
I didn't treat my statement as a fact. It was a hypothesis based on the surrounding context. If Parallax Hal is stronger than the Lanterns and Guardians in the group that also damaged BL CA's body and that his next two attacks did damage BL CA's body, I consider it likely that the initial attack did cause damage behind the yellow light.
I reiterate, once again, that I’m not referring to his initial attack, I’m referring to when Parallax hit Spectre with a lantern construct and there wasn’t any notable damage.
A correction on my part. Atrocitus didn't start making constructs until Brightest Day as most Red Lanterns use their bare hands or Napalm breath. This doesn't mean Atrocitus is lacking in power. RL Atrocitus has repeatedly broken YL Sinestro's and GL Hal's constructs in Blackest Night. Even a ringless Atrocitus could break from GL Sinestro's constructs.
Yet in that moment, Atrocitus was causing chip damage (which, again, you’ve said that it isn’t enough to scale) while Hal and Sinestro actually did major damage (in fact, they’re the only ones that did major damage, aside from technically Ganthet, although he was being helped by Hal).

It’s almost like they can become stronger, warranting an ‘up to’ rating or something

Also, even if Atrocitus was doing major damage, one could argue it’s an outlier for him considering that there’s been occasions wher Hal could harm and take hits from Larfleeze, who scales above Atrocitus. Hell, there’s been occasions where Hal overpowers Sinestro, and Sinestro has the best argument of scaling to 2-C Hal/having an ‘up to 2-C’ rating himself.

Also, as I mentioned before, Hal straight up overpowers Spectre’s grip with a construct, which would be Hal directly scaling to Spectre’s AP.
 
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