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Green lantern (hal Jordan) CRT.

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I’ll just recap some of the arguments for Hal having an ‘up to 2-C,’ because some of them haven’t been addressed yet.
  • Can cause significant damage to Black Lantern Spectre and directly overpowered his grip
  • Could harm and take hits from Superboy-Prime
  • Fought a being that could fight Ion (during Ion’s solo run)
  • Wasn’t rebooted by COIE (and therefore, should be capable of accessing his Pre-Crisis level of power)
  • Went blow-for-blow with Parallax Sinestro and directly matched his power output on multiple occasions. (Yes, this is Post-Flashpoint, but we consider that to be exactly the same as Post-Crisis for the Lanterns)

Reminder that the proposed revision here is ‘Varies. Usually 4-B, up to 2-C’ / ‘Varies. Usually 4-B, 2-C at peak.’ I just want to make sure it’s abundantly clear that the intention is not to make Hal a full 2-C, he’s only there at the peak of his power.
 
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The Crisis still rebooted lots of other characters whose power levels and histories were significantly adjusted, whom Hal was usually displayed as comparable to and had different history with, and I do not want us to scale between different continuities where it is unclear what is and isn't canon.

Except for that you mostly seem to have valid points. However, Superboy Prime had lots of weaker characters survive his blows due to characteristic "everybody can fight everybody" plot induced stupidity for western superhero comics.
 
I would normally agree that we shouldn’t be scaling between continuities, but the Lantern Corps are in a weird boat of remaining the same throughout the various retcons and reboots.

But yes, Post-Crisis Hal is shown being comparable/superior to the other Post-Crisis characters like Superman, but that just further supports the proposed rating. He’s usually operating at a 4-B level, but can crank it up to 2-C against opponents of that caliber.
 
Yes, but Pre-Crisis I think that he was well above 4-B on average, but I may be mistaken.
 
Firestorm808 said:
I'm aware of the big bang that Kron viewed from his time window, but you didn't explain why the cosmic bolt equates to the big bang he was viewing. Said Cosmic Bolt only destroyed his
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DC database already explained everything in a meaningful way plus it's stated it hit him and he survived due to his immorality.
Firestorm808 said:
Series such as Pokemon beg to differ on people taming beasts without outside power.
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That's pokemon not DC. And only krona was shown to do that.
Firestorm808 said:
You can say he tanked the hit, but you can't say it "was like nothing" That would be "no-selling" the attack.
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I meant he tanked the hits and the reason why I said was like nothing cause hal didn't show sign to be pained by it.
 
I read a book also that sinestro damaged volthoom tho it's been long I don't know if he was amped or not.
 
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What do you think Firestorm808? I am personally neutral about a partial upgrade.
 
LordTracer said:
I’m aware of where it comes from, we currently treat Post-Crisis and Post-Flashpoint Hal as being the same.

I reiterate, once again, that I’m not referring to his initial attack, I’m referring to when Parallax hit Spectre with a lantern construct and there wasn’t any notable damage.

Yet in that moment, Atrocitus was causing chip damage (which, again, you’ve said that it isn’t enough to scale) while Hal and Sinestro actually did major damage (in fact, they’re the only ones that did major damage, aside from technically Ganthet, although he was being helped by Hal).

It’s almost like they can become stronger, warranting an ‘up to’ rating or something

Also, even if Atrocitus was doing major damage, one could argue it’s an outlier for him considering that there’s been occasions wher Hal could harm and take hits from Larfleeze, who scales above Atrocitus. Hell, there’s been occasions where Hal overpowers Sinestro, and Sinestro has the best argument of scaling to 2-C Hal/having an ‘up to 2-C’ rating himself.

Also, as I mentioned before, Hal straight up overpowers Spectre’s grip with a construct, which would be Hal directly scaling to Spectre’s AP.
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  • You missed my point for citing the comic. It's all about the context of that fight. This is meant to be above his Post-Crisis and New 52 levels of power.
    • Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps: Rebirth #1 September 2016
      • Hal previously gave up his ring and took up Krona’s Gauntlet. The power of Krona’s Gauntlet eventually causes Hal’s powers to go unstable. Hal is becoming thought, expression, a construct, a being of pure unharnessed will. He is close to disappearing inside the emotional spectrum forever.
      • Hal forges a new ring from his pure unharnessed will.
    • Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps Vol 1 #7 December 2016
      • After creating a new ring, Hall fights Parallax Sinestro. Hal loses ground and gets hurt, but he finally overcomes Parallax Sinestro by unleashing his Raw Willpower, the energy wave engulfing the planet and extending to space.
    • I'm fine with this key of Rebirth Hal being 2-C.
  • I've never said anything about chip damage in this thread.
  • Hal broke out of Black Lantern Crispus Allen's grip, not the Spectre's. Considering that their constructs were already damaging BL CA's body, it's not surprising that it overcomes the physical strength of the body.
 
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LordTracer said:
I’ll just recap some of the arguments for Hal having an ‘up to 2-C,’ because some of them haven’t been addressed yet.
  • Can cause significant damage to Black Lantern Spectre and directly overpowered his grip
  • Could harm and take hits from Superboy-Prime
  • Fought a being that could fight Ion (during Ion’s solo run)
  • Wasn’t rebooted by COIE (and therefore, should be capable of accessing his Pre-Crisis level of power)
  • Went blow-for-blow with Parallax Sinestro and directly matched his power output on multiple occasions. (Yes, this is Post-Flashpoint, but we consider that to be exactly the same as Post-Crisis for the Lanterns)

Reminder that the proposed revision here is ‘Varies. Usually 4-B, up to 2-C’ / ‘Varies. Usually 4-B, 2-C at peak.’ I just want to make sure it’s abundantly clear that the intention is not to make Hal a full 2-C, he’s only there at the peak of his power.
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  • Again, it's Black Lantern Crispus Allen. BL CA's physical durability and AP are comparable to each other, so it wasn't any surprise that they were physically stronger when they severely damaged his body. I don't think BL CA and CA Spectre should scale to each other since I don't remember if CA Spectre has ever taken significant damage from the Lantern Corps or other top-tier JL characters.
  • While some characters in Post-Crisis were not technically hard rebooted by the original Crisis, they were still soft rebooted. They were written with a new consistent level of power and a new backstory. They would later get rebooted/retconned by events such as Zero Hour and Infinite Crisis.
  • I advise against scaling from one hit in a huge fight between many people against Superboy.
  • See my previous post on the context of that Parallax Sinestro fight.
 
LordTracer said:
Also, just because it could be useful, here’s a couple of examples of Sinestro being able to up himself to 2-C levels of power (and of course, Hal is usually shown as rivaling Sinestro, if not being stronger).
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  • To me, the Sinestro Corps Special was suspicious of PIS with Ion Kyle losing in the manner they showed.
    • Green Lantern: Sinestro Corps Special, August 2007
      • Sinestro knocks down Ion Kyle and isn’t fazed by his attacks for some reason.
      • Ion Kyle is defeated by numerous Yellow lanterns blasting him at once.
      • One Random Yellow Lantern is able to physically restrain Ion Kyle.
      • Sinestro removes Ion from Kyle and replaces it with Parallax.
    • Keep in mind the Yellow Power Battery itself in the storyline caps off at Galaxy level.
  • GL Sinestro's interaction with WL Kyle isn't really something to scale from.
    • Green Lantern: New Guardians Vol 1 #19, June 2013
      • Due to WL Kyle’s new Life Powers, he is more out of it at the destroyed Korugar. With so much death around, he can hardly take being there. He sees the echoes of life that used to be there.
      • GL Sinestro punches WL Kyle, thinking he got the white ring from Volthoom. No visible damage is shown.
      • GL Sinestro grabs WL Kyle’s arm, trying to take his ring.
      • Carol breaks free from GL Sinestro’s construct.
 
Firestorm808 makes sense to me.

What do you think that we should do here?
 
Firestorm808 said:
This is meant to be above his Post-Crisis and New 52 levels of power.
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Based on…? Hal’s powers becoming unstable doesn’t mean they’re stronger than normal.
Firestorm808 said:
I've never said anything about chip damage in this thread.
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Nor did I say that you did, but I recall you saying in the past that we shouldn’t scale characters based on that, so Atrocitus shouldn’t be an exception. (Especially when he’s blatantly doing less damage than Sinestro and Hal)
Firestorm808 said:
Hal broke out of Black Lantern Crispus Allen's grip, not the Spectre's. Considering that their constructs were already damaging BL CA's body, it's not surprising that it overcomes the physical strength of the body.
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I have already explained why Black Lantern Spectre’s AP is comparable to the actual Spectre’s, and it is complete headcanon to say that its AP is equal to its durability here (aside from the fact that I showed BL Spectre taking a hit from Parallax, something you still have not properly acknowledged).
Firestorm808 said:
Again, it's Black Lantern Crispus Allen. BL CA's physical durability and AP are comparable to each other,
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Based on literally what? You haven’t shown anything whatsoever to imply this, and the comic makes it pretty clear that Black Lantern Spectre is just as powerful as the normal Spectre (which should be obvious, why would the Black ring make him weaker…)
 
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Firestorm808 said:
  • Ion Kyle is defeated by numerous Yellow lanterns blasting him at once.
  • One Random Yellow Lantern is able to physically restrain Ion Kyle.
Click to expand...
Scans?
Firestorm808 said:
Keep in mind the Yellow Power Battery itself in the storyline caps off at Galaxy level.
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Yeah, in durability. That does not prevent Sinestro from being a higher tier.
 
Firestorm808 said:
  • To me, the Sinestro Corps Special was suspicious of PIS with Ion Kyle losing in the manner they showed.
    • Green Lantern: Sinestro Corps Special, August 2007
      • Sinestro knocks down Ion Kyle and isn’t fazed by his attacks for some reason.
      • Ion Kyle is defeated by numerous Yellow lanterns blasting him at once.
      • One Random Yellow Lantern is able to physically restrain Ion Kyle.
      • Sinestro removes Ion from Kyle and replaces it with Parallax.
    • Keep in mind the Yellow Power Battery itself in the storyline caps off at Galaxy level.
  • GL Sinestro's interaction with WL Kyle isn't really something to scale from.
    • Green Lantern: New Guardians Vol 1 #19, June 2013
      • Due to WL Kyle’s new Life Powers, he is more out of it at the destroyed Korugar. With so much death around, he can hardly take being there. He sees the echoes of life that used to be there.
      • GL Sinestro punches WL Kyle, thinking he got the white ring from Volthoom. No visible damage is shown.
      • GL Sinestro grabs WL Kyle’s arm, trying to take his ring.
      • Carol breaks free from GL Sinestro’s construct.
Click to expand...
How will you scale hal battles with post-crisis parallax?
 
I'm with Firestorm. Most of these seem more context based or single panel scaling than something consistent enough to give a character a Tier 2 rating.
 
Very carefully, given that the verse runs on everybody can fight everybody plot-induced stupidity.
 
Antvasima said:
The Crisis still rebooted lots of other characters whose power levels and histories were significantly adjusted, whom Hal was usually displayed as comparable to and had different history with, and I do not want us to scale between different continuities where it is unclear what is and isn't canon.

Except for that you mostly seem to have valid points. However, Superboy Prime had lots of weaker characters survive his blows due to characteristic "everybody can fight everybody" plot induced stupidity for western superhero comics.
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I mean, Post Crisis Superman was equally matched with Golden Age Kal L who was Silver Age's Superman direct equal, there's also the fact he can consistently throw hands with restricted Darkseid who was comparable if not superior to Silver Age Superman and we also know the New Gods weren't affected by the Crisis events: the notion of Silver Age characters being astronomically above moden era characters is kind off baseless in my opinion.
 
Tbh with the discussion about Superman holding back and being comparable to his Golden Age self and Superboy-Prime at his peak, it would be consistent with the idea of Hal being Pre-Crisis level and fighting Superboy-Prime at his peak (since again, the GL Corps weren’t retconned).
 
I don't even understand why Golden Age Superman is treated as 2-C for stalemating Silver Age Superman and 2-C for shattering the barrier Prime struggled to break through when the two things happen literally in the same comic mini series (Infinite Crisis) and PC Clark is equal to him.
 
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Can't we have hal jordan scaling as varies atleaat if the 2-C won't be accepted now as he has consistent feats from different comics to scale to parallax hal jordan.
 
ItalianGuy1234 said:
I don't even understand why Golden Age Superman is treated as 4-B for stalemating Superman and 2-C for shattering the barrier Prime struggled to break through when the two things happen literally in the same comic mini series (Infinite Crisis).
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Earth 2 Superman isn't rated 4-B.
 
Confluctor said:
Yeah varied up to 4B for lanterns MUST get accepted. It wouldn't make sense otherwise.
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Yeah something like this 4B|varies.
But I still stand with 4B varies up to 2-C.
Depends on hal Jordan's willpower at the moment.
 
Dude. If you look into their feats, you will realise there are as many T5 feats as 4C, if not more. Why would you ignore their normal levels and jump to 4C all the way?
 
Confluctor said:
Dude. If you look into their feats, you will realise there are as many T5 feats as 4C, if not more. Why would you ignore their normal levels and jump to 4C all the way?
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Like I said characters having planetary feats doesn't mean it should be added to their profiles just cause they normally perform such feats.

And it's not jumping, and now I heard DC heralds will now be scaled via their feats shown.
 
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