Grasshopper Manufacture/Suda51/No More Heroes/Kill The Past General Discussion Thread

[Armorchompy]

Just letting y’all know that I’m gonna write my thoughts as well

absolutely go for it, i'd love to hear your thoughts- and that applies to everyone else here as well.

however for the sake of not spoiling people who haven't made it as far in the game we should start marking the spoilers with the chapter number/ranked boss number or whatever, i'll start doing that too of course

 

[Armorchompy]

post rank 8 fight

the gold joe fight isn't really new to me since it was shown at E3 but eh, it's fine. didn't love him

the normal aliens are actually the ones i'm looking forward to making profiles for the most, i love the little lore we get on each of them.

the chestholes, the aliens with a hole in their chest, can ohko with the attack where they spit out balls that explode when you get near, if you're close to them when they use it. fun.

the ice shaver or whatever he was called not only has a decent planet busting statement, but an absolute zero one which should give a resistance to travis' armor

the rank 8 fight gives Travis some STRONG instinctive reaction which is nice. I would have liked to see the rank 8 alien fight but i guess that's just how it be, eh. Native Dancer seems like a fun character, although time travel always scares me in a story

 

[Jasonsith]

Spoiler: Mr Blackhole and Gold Joe

Gold Joe really explains why the "galaxy" maintenance inside spaceships are NOT dimension creation or even pocket dimension manipulation.

The talk with Mr. Blackhole also shows a scorched planet after being "destroyed" by Fu. So it shows the planet destruction is more of a planet surface wiping.

 

[Armorchompy]

There's other 5-B statements.

 

[Armorchompy]

Also, while I agree that #10's 3-A feat isn't legit, Gold Joe's situation is completely unrelated

 

[NeoTengus]

Spoiler: Mr Blackhole and Gold Joe

Gold Joe really explains why the "galaxy" maintenance inside spaceships are NOT dimension creation or even pocket dimension manipulation.

The talk with Mr. Blackhole also shows a scorched planet after being "destroyed" by Fu. So it shows the planet destruction is more of a planet surface wiping.

Spoiler

what Gold Joe was talking about was not related at all to Mr Black Hole's pocket dimension. He was literally talking about the arena he created. Jeane even said each alien ship is completely different from a technological standpoint as each alien is from a different planet. So nothing Gold Joe mentioned had anything to do with Blackhole.

 

[Armorchompy]

I finally beat the game and

I dunno, I definitely enjoyed it all the way through but the ending kinda failed for me. There were so many things going on that as a whole whatever Suda was trying to say, if there even was something, was kind of overshadowed by the constant twists and turns going on. This verdict isn't final, after all I hated Flower Sun and Rain when I first beat it and now it's one of my favorite Suda51 games, so I definitely wanna take some days to try and understand the game's message, but so far... idk, I didn't dislike or like the story too much.

 

[Armorchompy]

nevermind i just realized that the reason the demon x machina robot shows up is that it's a literal deus ex machina, done against damon. literally the best joke ever, 10/10

 

[NotoriouSoda]

nevermind i just realized that the reason the demon x machina robot shows up is that it's a literal deus ex machina, done against damon. literally the best joke ever, 10/10

Suda does it again

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah I talked about the game with some friends and I definitely do enjoy the story but I do think it has a couple issues I didn't like, Travis' character feels slightly inconsistent at times (like the Kimmy fight, that one didn't feel right for some reason and some of the aliens really didn't deserve to be offed before the fight so anticlimactically

Anyway, I'll rewatch a playthrough of the game now that I've beaten it, both to hunt for feats/abilities/other vsbw stuff and to solidify my opinions on it

 

[Jasonsith]

nevermind i just realized that the reason the demon x machina robot shows up is that it's a literal deus ex machina, done against damon. literally the best joke ever, 10/10

Suda does it again

Spoiler

Is it just me I like how Travis and Damon settle things "sumo" (read: SSBU) style.

Spoiler: Feats

That ocean freezing feat just by JB5 existing can be considered one... Just wondering if this will be the ceiling of the aliens payload instead because they were blitzed by the 2 sons and 1 grandson.

 

[Armorchompy]

writing my findings here in this sandbox, feel free to check and give opinions.

 

[Ab9987]

Spoiler: Rank 1 Spoiler / Question

During the last phase of the Fu fight Travis' allies seem to teleport into the arena to harm the fourth form of Fu, causing a phase transition. I think the only one to miss out is Shinobu but she later deals two pretty serious blows to him anyway. Shinobu and Bad Girl have pretty much -always- scaled as barely being weaker than Travis anyway but it's cool to see that the side characters all actually have a decent feat in the last fight. Saying that Kamui, Notorious and Bad Girl seem to teleport, as does Midori in two prior cutscenes. Is this ever explained or is it a new ability that should be added? I may've missed something.

 

[Armorchompy]

I dunno, probably just a new ability. Well, Midori already had that, she's not original to NMH3. Also yeah Travis' allies probably downscale from FU and all, they're weaker than Travis but they're still in the same ballpark

 

[Ab9987]

I guess them learning Instant Transmission during a time skip in on-brand. It makes as much sense as them all going from 8-C to 5-B in the same period. I'd have loved to see that training montage. Their teleport seems distinct from Midori's too. They appear in a bright flash, do their attack then jump off-camera, teleporting from the arena.

 

[Armorchompy]

I'd like to ask for opinions on what to do about fodder enemies. Their only 5-B feat is this statement, which calls Diversities "planet destroying freaks", however considering the fact that they evolved flight to avoid obstacles, which really shouldn't be an issue if they were planet busters, I kinda think it might be a "this alien race destroys planets over-time after invading them" kinda thing. Not sure, I'd like to hear some opinions

 

[Jasonsith]

I'd like to ask for opinions on what to do about fodder enemies. Their only 5-B feat is this statement, which calls Diversities "planet destroying freaks", however considering the fact that they evolved flight to avoid obstacles, which really shouldn't be an issue if they were planet busters, I kinda think it might be a "this alien race destroys planets over-time after invading them" kinda thing. Not sure, I'd like to hear some opinions

Spoiler

This reinforces my thought: That the aliens (from Diversities to FU) destroy planets over time and not in one go.

Well I shall do one calc for the ocean freezing feat once I know the ocean where Travis and his friends give Badman a burial at sea and the depth of it. Anyone can help?

 

[Armorchompy]

Spoiler

This reinforces my thought: That the aliens (from Diversities to FU) destroy planets over time and not in one go.

Well I shall do one calc for the ocean freezing feat once I know the ocean where Travis and his friends give Badman a burial at sea and the depth of it. Anyone can help?

No, the other statements are much more straightforward, this is the only one I doubt and it applies to fodder. As for the ocean freezing feat we don't know how far or deep the freezing went. However Santa Destroy is in California, close to the Mexico border, presumably they were close to that

 

[Ab9987]

Would the whole "world-ending supernova" crystals count for much? All of the aliens seem to contain them to varying degrees. With the stronger fodder containing more of them which could explain well, why they're more powerful. Then again this could just be another vague example of Suda adding things that sound cool.

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean I don't really think Suda does a lot of stuff without thinking, when there's a clash of logic usually there's narrative intent behind it

Anyway I don't think so, they can't directly be used for empowerment without Dr. Naomi's tech

 

[Ab9987]

Oh, sorry I meant if they could be used to support the fodder aliens being 5-B. If they use the crystals as an internal power source or source of empowerment since the crystals are inside the fodder aliens, would that be any use in supporting them being 5-B?

 

[Armorchompy]

Eeeh, I don't necessarily think that, I get the logic but just cause they have a similar source doesn't mean their power is similar

 

[Jasonsith]

Spoiler: feat

This feat is island level.
If anything, at least Island level (feat wise), possibly multi-continent level (assume planet surface wiping) should really accurately tier NMH3 main fighting cast.

 

[Armorchompy]

... did you even check the link i sent. they literally say its cannons can destroy a planet in one hit. it couldn't be any more obvious

 

[Armorchompy]

Can any of you guys figure out what Travis says when he uses Death Slow?

 

[Shmooply]

Spin death throw?

 

[Armorchompy]

might be yeah. kinda weird

 

[Jasonsith]

No, the other statements are much more straightforward, this is the only one I doubt and it applies to fodder. As for the ocean freezing feat we don't know how far or deep the freezing went. However Santa Destroy is in California, close to the Mexico border, presumably they were close to that

Spoiler

Again, we cannot expect them to understand "destroying a planet" the same way as we do. So we have to be very careful when examining these statements.
Not to say the description card only says "his ice cannons are powerful enough to destroy entire planets" but never says the charging time.
To be frank, if the underlings are really one hit planet busting, why would Mr Blackhole be so afraid of Fu when Fu turned BH's planet into wasteland? Yes when BH describes Fu destroyed a planet (before the first stage boss fight), BH was showing a wasteland instead of space debris while describing Fu "destroyed a planet" (assume Fu did that in only one hit as a highball), and planet surface wiping feat is only multi continent level.
I know slapping a planet busting level with one statement is very convenient but it is not the way we do things. At least not the way I do things.

 

[Armorchompy]

Spoiler

Again, we cannot expect them to understand "destroying a planet" the same way as we do. So we have to be very careful when examining these statements.
Not to say the description card only says "his ice cannons are powerful enough to destroy entire planets" but never says the charging time.
To be frank, if the underlings are really one hit planet busting, why would Mr Blackhole be so afraid of Fu when Fu turned BH's planet into wasteland? Yes when BH describes Fu destroyed a planet (before the first stage boss fight), BH was showing a wasteland instead of space debris while describing Fu "destroyed a planet" (assume Fu did that in only one hit as a highball), and planet surface wiping feat is only multi continent level.
I know slapping a planet busting level with one statement is very convenient but it is not the way we do things. At least not the way I do things.

Nothing says the ice cannons need to charge, you're just throwing around baseless assumptions.

BH is afraid of FU cause he knows FU is much stronger than him, they both upscale from that feat but FU does way more. Him having destroyed only a planet's surface means absolutely nothing, nothing says he was going all-out especially since FU holds back 99% of the time.

I was actually going to propose "At least High 6-A, possibly 5-B" for that exact reason, but "destroy a planet" is a really straightforward statement, and it'd be stupid to ignore it when it's done so many times.

I've got issues with the way you do things myself, so don't be throwing around those half-mouthed accusations.

 

[Armorchompy]

I guess them learning Instant Transmission during a time skip in on-brand. It makes as much sense as them all going from 8-C to 5-B in the same period. I'd have loved to see that training montage. Their teleport seems distinct from Midori's too. They appear in a bright flash, do their attack then jump off-camera, teleporting from the arena.

Actually, rewatching the cutscene, that animation is similar to Kamui's attacks, which is probably not a coincidence since the design of those attacks resembles a character from Kamui's origin series, who is subservient to Kamui

 

[Armorchompy]

Also, I finished gathering P&A (along with some misc notes) for NMH3, I'd appreciate if people could give it a look, see if anything is missing or if they disagree with something.

 

[NotoriouSoda]

Also, I finished gathering P&A (along with some misc notes) for NMH3, I'd appreciate if people could give it a look, see if anything is missing or if they disagree with something.

Based Armor

But yeah I don’t see a problem just putting the characters at 5-B lol. Jason idk why your trying to cap them at High 6-A despite the face there are multiple statements about planet busting. Also Blackhole makes it very clear FU can kill him anytime and is pretty much accepting of that.

 

[Jasonsith]

Based Armor

But yeah I don’t see a problem just putting the characters at 5-B lol. Jason idk why your trying to cap them at High 6-A despite the face there are multiple statements about planet busting. Also Blackhole makes it very clear FU can kill him anytime and is pretty much accepting of that.

Statements over statements are like circling. I stand on the point of fearing this will set an example for other verses where loose statements can take over direct feats and lore.

Also the statement being "destroying as planet", "a threat to a planet" can be used really loosely. I am not comfortable to give a green light just because of that otherwise other verses will yell for the same and then many verses will be tier 5 without solid supportings.

In fact we are glad Blackhole did show an image of a "destroyed planet", which can be the aftermath of a high 6-A feat, which is at least a "historical event".

Oh I tried to calculate a feat to see if it get any close to 5-B or just above High 6-A and I have feedbacks that said feat can be potentially far less than even 6-C.

I know some of you can be thinking "I just care NMH3 is planet busting since there are many statements of seemingly 5-B to me and I do not care what other verses are". I am just addressing my concern on a higher level.

Spoiler: Scaling and tiering

At least let us try to make a simple tiering and scaling chain

Berserk "Cocoon" FU = combined forces of (Travis + Kamui + Bad Girl + Notorious + Native Dancer + Shinobu Jacobs + Damon(?)) > individual Travis, Kamui, Bad Girl, Notorious, Native Dancer, Shinobu Jacobs, FU, Damon = Paradox Bandit = Sonic Juice = Sniping Lee = Midori Midorikawa = Damon Riccitiello = Clone Henry Cooldown = Destroyman True Face (?) >= Space Peacock >= Kimmy Howell = Ohma = Vanishing Point = Black Night Direction = Gold Joe = Mr. Blackhole >> Diversities = death reaper goon

 

[Armorchompy]

I understand the concern that the verse might treat the "planet destruction" statement as a High 6-A one, which is why I think At least High 6-A, possibly/likely 5-B is the most comprehensive and safest rating. Also, Sonic Juice's own destroyed planet is in far worse condition, seemingly all that remains is a flat plane of water, and the atmosphere is all screwed up too, with stars and galaxies visible despite it being day and the fish swimming in the air. Not only that, but some of the planet destruction statements are completely unrelated to FU.

Anyway, I don't think that scaling chain is correct, there's a clear hierarchy between the Galactic Superheroes. I'll give it a shot.

FU > Travis > Everyone else in his team, that much is clear to begin with. People like Shinobu or Bad Girl haven't really had any time to train, and we all know what happened last time Shinobu fought FU. But Travis does need help to take out FU, maybe not the berserk version with the eyes but definitely the dome/cocoon. Damon is roughly = Travis, as for the mechs they use in their showdown, They're definitely > not only Travis, but his Full Armor as well, since he didn't believe it could make a difference. Also, Thunder Break is gonna be a bit higher than DXM since the latter couldn't do much damage with a lot of blows.

Thunder Break >= Daemon X Machina Mech >= Full Armor Travis =< FU > Endgame Travis =~ Damon

Moving on, "the big four" minus FU (Rank 4, 3 and 2) are notably superior to the lower-tier alien assassins, that's why there is a distinction. Henry also fights Travis at this point and they should roughly be on par considering Henry kills him in the future. So Travis = Henry > Destroyman New Face, Notorious, Sonic Juice, Sniper Lee and Rank 2 whose name I don't care for, who are all roughly on par with each other.

Thunder Break >= Daemon X Machina Mech >= Full Armor Travis =< FU > Endgame Travis = Henry =~ Damon > Destroyman New Face, Notorious, Sonic Juice, Sniper Lee, Paradox Bandit

You have noticed that I'm not scaling ranked assassins over each other based, and that's because I believe the issue here is not as simple as "4 > 5 > 6 > 7", skill can easily change the tide of a battle in No More Heroes, and considering how many aliens die without us even getting to see them in action, that's not something we can be 100% sure of. Furthermore, previous No More Heroes games have had outliers in strength who are ranked below weaker people- most infamously Charlie McDonald and his High 7-A mech are only #25 in the UAA of the second game, far below a bunch of 8-C, possibly High 8-C people. Less egregiously, Speed Buster's beam cannon can almost OHKO Travis, while Bad Girl is physically more or less equal to him, and I don't think it's safe to assume such a rapid jump in durability. So, to keep it safe, I'll assume they're mostly equal since the difference between them can be speed, skill, or versatility, or hax. Travis does become stronger throughout the game, he can empower himself with WESN and gets a training montage with Notorious, but again, I wanna keep it safe

Midori Midorikawa is a special case- Travis fights her with Full Green Mode, which is definitely a step up from his normal self, so I'm gonna put her in the same rank as the Big Four- FU himself didn't really have any idea what her powers were (and definitely didn't know what sort of being Kamui is), so I think it's fair. Keep in mind I'm assuming Travis' armor grows in power with him, which I understand is a bit weird but eh, if it we don't accept that we have Travis >>> Full Armor Travis which is weird as hell. As for Kamui himself, he's weird, he barely throws any punches and isn't really fought- FU one-shots him multiple times while texting with Midori but his abilities bring him back to life. Considering FU can one-shot Rank 2 and 3 and that Kamui managed to briefly overpower Full Green Travis right after he beat Midori, I'll consider him equal to her.

Thunder Break >= Daemon X Machina Mech >= Full Armor Travis =< FU > Endgame Travis = Henry =~ Damon > Destroyman New Face =~ Notorious =~ Sonic Juice =~ Sniper Lee =~ Paradox Bandit =~ Kamui Uehara =~ Midori Midorikawa

Ohma is a weird case, he doesn't really do any striking, and his main attack is duraneg. Travis does feel the need to avoid a strike from giant Ohma, but I'm still not gonna put him in the scaling chain anyway since it'd just be guesswork, especially since none of the Galactic Superheroes have presumably ever seen an enraged and giant Ohma. Moving on, Kimmy does one-shot Vanishing Point but she's got a lightsaber, of course she does. The reason she stomps him is the advantage of surprise + skill, which Kimmy has plenty of. Similarly, Native Dancer manages to sneak up on Black Night Direction, not really any evidence he's stronger.

Thunder Break >= Daemon X Machina Mech >= Full Armor Travis =< FU > Endgame Travis = Henry =~ Damon > Destroyman New Face =~ Notorious =~ Sonic Juice =~ Sniper Lee =~ Paradox Bandit =~ Kamui Uehara =~ Midori Midorikawa > Kimmy Love =~ Vanishing Point =~ Native Dancer =~ Black Night Direction =~ Gold Joe

Here's an issue. Mr. Blackhole has a second form which he uses to fight Bouganvillea Travis, who's stronger than normal Travis, and since Gold Joe comes right after Blackhole (and between those two fights Travis gets his shit kicked in, so it's not like he could have gotten stronger). But Gold Joe is ranked higher than Blackhole, and he doesn't necessarily seem much more skilled (although to be fair he seems way faster). I'm open to ideas on how to scale them, right now I'll just consider them equal. Now we're left with Shinobu, Bad Girl and Badman. The first two don't really have the opportunity to grow stronger after losing, and they were on the same level in TSA, so I'm gonna consider them equal. And... we don't really have anything to scale them, but they perform just as well as the rest of Travis' allies against FU, so I'm gonna put them on the same level as Native Dancer, who also performs fairly well against FU. Any higher than that and they'd be = Late Game Full Green Travis which would be really weird.

Thunder Break >= Daemon X Machina Mech >= Full Armor Travis =< FU > Endgame Travis = Henry =~ Damon > Destroyman New Face =~ Notorious =~ Sonic Juice =~ Sniper Lee =~ Paradox Bandit =~ Kamui Uehara =~ Midori Midorikawa > Kimmy Love =~ Vanishing Point =~ Native Dancer =~ Black Night Direction =~ Gold Joe =~ Mr. Blackhole =~ Shinobu =~ Bad Girl =~ Badman

The (relative) fodder is left. This includes Mass-Produced Destroyman and the mini-bosses. Scaling both of these to the protagonists' level at all might be a bit contentious so I'll try to justify it. Maspro Destroyman manages to seriously harm Travis with an electric shock, even if he gets up faster. Plus, Travis seems to perceive them as somewhat of a threat in large numbers since he's grateful to Notorious for clearing the way to True Face Destroyman.

As for the minibosses, they do get stomped by Shinobu, Bad Girl and Travis in the intro, but that's a matter of skill- you can see the girls beating down on them in the background of the cutscene after the tutorial and they're tanking those hits. Furthermore, those enemies have various variants with different colors and stats, and the ones fought in the tutorial are the absolute weakest- it stands to reason stronger ones would be a bit more of a threat. And in their little intro cards, you'll often see Travis remarking that they might be dangerous, indeed. The space mini-bosses (which are where one of the 5-B/High 6-A feats come from, as a reminder) should be tougher than normal mini-bosses, not just because they fight an amped Travis, but because while Travis is seen taking on multiple of normal mid-bosses at once, he only ever fights one space mid-boss at once, and even then the battle sees him gradually wearing them down before the final strike. You could make an argument these guys should be equal to the base named character level (Mr. Blackhole tier) and are not as powerful because of a lack of skill which makes sense since they're animalistic in intelligence, but I'll keep it safe

My Scaling Chain:

Thunder Break >= Arsenal Rollout Model >= Full Armor Travis =< FU > Endgame Travis = Henry =~ Damon > Destroyman New Face =~ Notorious =~ Sonic Juice =~ Sniper Lee =~ Paradox Bandit =~ Kamui Uehara =~ Midori Midorikawa > Kimmy Love =~ Vanishing Point =~ Native Dancer =~ Black Night Direction =~ Gold Joe =~ Mr. Blackhole =~ Shinobu =~ Bad Girl =~ Badman >= Space Mini-Bosses (Ice Shaver, Space Sheath, Space Peacock) >= Mini-Bosses (Minoru, Captain Treatment, Leopardon) =~ Mass-Produced Destroyman

I understand that the sheer amount of "=~" might raise some eyebrows, but understand that No More Heroes isn't a series that really cares about estabilishing such a level of consistency, and it definitely runs on "everyone can fight everyone" logic. This isn't a criticism, the last thing I'd wanna see Suda51's talents wasted on is powerscaling, I'm just stating what I think is a fact. There's a lot of small things we don't know, and very few side characters get more than one fight, so it's always gonna be a bit messy

 

[Armorchompy]

ok so i just realized why dr. naomi is a tree now

she's the one that handles the machine where you buy your skills

your skill tree

 

[Armorchompy]

Also, I forgot to add it to the sandbox but it is kinda funny, Travis has access to very, very limited existance erasure

 

[Jasonsith]

Also, I forgot to add it to the sandbox but it is kinda funny, Travis has access to very, very limited existance erasure

What do you think about Damon being disintegrated by the time Travis defeated Damon "sumo" (read: SSBU) style?

 

[Armorchompy]

I think that's either just a natural consequence of his death (many videogame bosses disintegrate after death after all, final fantasy is a good example), or Damon being forced to hold up his own end of the bargain he made with that mysterious figure. I wouldn't attribute it to Travis directly, not without more information.

 

[Shmooply]

Also, I forgot to add it to the sandbox but it is kinda funny, Travis has access to very, very limited existance erasure

Travis vs Killer Bean when?

 

[Armorchompy]

New LS calculation, will push top tiers to Class M

As for who it scales to, probably only Travis, FU and Damon and their various mechs and amped forms, I don't feel comfortable scaling it to anyone else.