Grasp heart revision

[Belyompusct]

@Yomi

"if you are immune to poison in the first place,then he will make a new type of substance that will especially affect you with a special lethal dosage pattern."

Offtopic question, is he able to quickly invent a lethal dose, before gettin' one-shotted, mindhaxed, vapourized by Chair?

I mean, he doesn't have Info-Analysis in his profile. But with what method can he understand the right chemical composition of the substance needed to influence Chair? Via contact?

 

[PaChi2]

WHAT.

Now you are derailing this with Askin vs Shalltear? ****

 

[Belyompusct]

I agree that the GH is the type of instant-death magic, stylized in a special way. Nowhere in the text does it say that the destruction of hologramic heart translocates damage to the real heart. Most importantly, Grasp Heart is classified as the magic that causes instant death, not telekinesis. Regenerationn is useless if you instantly die when the caster squeezes his hand, as a trigger.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

WHAT.
Now you are derailing this with Askin vs Shalltear? ****

Eek Im sorry,just an act of impulse

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

@Shrekspire

i'll answe that on your wall

 

[Maraderchik]

@Yomi

Would you agree with, Grasp Heart doesn't need crush actual heart?

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

@Yomi
Would you agree with, Grasp Heart doesn't need crush actual heart?

No.

Its blatantly obvious that you need an actual heart (or something close to it) to be able to make it work an effect.

Saying otherwise is ignoring the entire point and presentation of the spell.

the entire "Slime Argument" is honestly flawed.It's a complete assumption based around guesswork.

Im sure we all know RPG's have the system of Type Spectrum.

A type of attack based on its classification will have varying degree's of effect to the one its being used on they can be either weak,resistant,immune or be able to absorb the attack (such is the case for famous games like Persona and Pokemon)

Im pretty sure beings who lack the rquirements to meet said attacks wont have the attack affect them at all,thats common logic

And for Grasp heart to completetly take effect the character needs to be able to die from the heart being crushed cause it is said to be "necromantic" which means it has involvment with being deceased for it to work the following death manipulation,otherwise it will just stun.

 

[Golden_Void]

Well in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking at this matter in a different way and without fighting and by trying to make it clear, and by considering each and every ones opinion, I honestly believe that Yomi makes sense here.

 

[Maraderchik]

I think your "necromantic" argument is totally off the point here. Because inflict instant death effect on already deceased target is meaningless.

Instant death effect weak against what? This thing can't be weak to anything, it's work or it's doesn't work at all, as for immune and resistant there already stated - players can resist this kind of attack with some items or gain natural resist because ov high level, or being immune because of being undead or construct.

And again, there nothing in the LN what's indicate that Ainz inflict physical damage (by crushing actual heart) with this skill at all.

>Im pretty sure beings who lack the rquirements to meet said attacks wont have the attack affect them at all,thats common logic

Sure, but there no such requirments for [Grasp Heart] as far as i know.


I give up on my opinion about this spell doesn't need to crush actual heart to work on if someone bring solid evidence that spell inflict physical damage.

 

[Mand21]

Can [Grasp Heart] affect skeletons and liches like Ainz, or otherwise beings who don't have vital organs (i.e: slimes)?

If it can, then that should be it.

 

[Maraderchik]

Should be what? It can't affect any undead creature, because they immune to instant death effect, same as construct.

But there no reason for not affect slimes.

 

[Parkjammer]

Can [Grasp Heart] affect skeletons and liches like Ainz, or otherwise beings who don't have vital organs (i.e: slimes)?
If it can, then that should be it.

To answer your question, Skeletons and liches (liches like Iguva, the one who fought the lizardmen, do have hearts and blood technically although it doesn't look like they rely on them) cannot be affected by Grasp Heart, because Undead have immunity to death magic in the overlord Universe. Certain Heteromorphic races like slimes could potentially be affected by Instant-death magic but there are no solid feats of it yet.

Ainz has used grasp heart on Dragons, and he didn't have to squeeze a heart in his hand to make it work on them, which makes me think that it should work on all beings without resistance or immunity to instant-death. He hasn't had to squeeze the hearts of anyone except for the first human that he uses it on in the series, and he's used a few times since then.

 

[Akreious]

In short; Undead races naturally have an immunity to such spells and as such, Grasp Heart and similar spells wouldn't work anyways regardless of a heart or lack there of. So saying it doesn't work on Undead is redundant and completely ignores the fact that they just shrug off that form of spells as a racial ability.

 

[Parkjammer]

... Correct? Death spells cannot work on undead or constructs but can work on those without immunities. Almost all humans, demihumans, and living heteromorphs have the potential to be affected by Instant-death spells.

Undead naturally have traits like poison, sickness, sleep, and instant death invalidation because of their Type 7 Immortality. (although all immunities and resistances are bypassed with TGoALiD, as seen when Ainz killed a construct with his Cry of the Banshee).

Those that don't fall under the undead category in Overlord don't have these natural invalidations and in-turn have the potential to be killed via instant-death magic

We have already come to a consensus that Grasp Heart's magic will kill anyone who it's cast upon regardless of Regenerationn (obviously except for those with resistances or immunities).

I think the conversation right now is looking at whether or not Ainz's instant death magic can work on a being that is alive but doesn't have a heart.

 

[PaChi2]

Summarizing?

Any consensus?

 

[The_Legendary_Kurac]

I take it as only crushing a heart, the difference is you can do it from afar. It is kind of like Voodoo

 

[Parkjammer]

@PaChi

Concensus: Grasp Heart crushes the heart and induces instant-death magic.

Not-yet-a-consensus: Can Grasp Heart's instant-death magic affect beings without crushing the heart (beings without hearts)?

 

[Mand21]

Wait, what construct did Ainz kill?

Anyways, I'd say that what you have said can already be used to form a new consensus, Parkjammer. If undead are capable of shrugging off Grasp Heart because of their racial ability to ignore instant death spells, and if The Goal of All Life is Death can make so that Grasp Heart and other such skills under the same umbrella as Grasp Heart will affect them, then it should be comprobatory evidence that Grasp Heart is a form of Death Manipulation that doesn't necessarily require actually crushing the heart, although it can and has been done, and that it does not fail to work on undeads if this immunity (Resistance, if put in our terms) is bypassed.

This means undead and the like have resistance to death manipulation, but can be affected by death spells way beyond their league. Would Ainz thus be able to tank Avada Kedavra? I'm not sure, but he likely can. However, he wouldn't tank [(The Goal of All Life is Death)Avada Kedavra].

I believe we should add Resistance to Death Manipulation on the undead of Overlord.

 

[Parkjammer]

@Mand21 With TGoALiD, Ainz killed Shalltear's Einherjar which was described as a "golem-like construct" or as just a "construct". After Shalltear summoned it, he used TGoALiD and his death magic killed Shalltear, Einherjar, along with "Even the air — which was not even alive to begin with — fell into death. For over one hundred meters in all directions, the air was no longer breathable. If any living creature tried to respire within that area, their lungs would be corrupted by the deadly air, and they would die." and lastly "Neither did the land escape the embrace of death. The terrain in a hundred meter radius was instantly transmuted into sand". He bypassed the resistance to death manip of the entire area around him with "Cry of the Banshee"'s instant-death effect.

I know undead do have "Instant-Death invalid" in their descriptions, but I agree it should probably be added under powers and abilities

Also I think I understand and I agree with your synopsis, and I'm a supporter of the fact that Grasp Heart, as an instant-death spell, shouldn't have to crush a heart for the instant-death magic to happen

 

[Maraderchik]

@Mand21, that's pretty good conclusion.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

I thought we already agreed that Grasp Heart is death manipulation?

And are we still going on about this not having a heart thing? can somebody sum up the entire argument thus far?

 

[Mand21]

@Mand21 With TGoALiD, Ainz killed Shalltear's Einherjar which was described as a "golem-like construct" or as just a "construct". After Shalltear summoned it, he used TGoALiD and his death magic killed Shalltear, Einherjar, along with "Even the air — which was not even alive to begin with — fell into death. For over one hundred meters in all directions, the air was no longer breathable. If any living creature tried to respire within that area, their lungs would be corrupted by the deadly air, and they would die." and lastly "Neither did the land escape the embrace of death. The terrain in a hundred meter radius was instantly transmuted into sand". He bypassed the resistance to death manip of the entire area around him with "Cry of the Banshee"'s instant-death effect.

Damn, I had forgotten that because I watched the first two seasons before starting the light novel from where they left. That's broken. Should it fall into some slight degree of concept manipulation or logic distortion by killing stuff to which the concept of life itself does not apply?

 

[Belyompusct]

Conceptual background (1) for TGOALID is an insecure epithet, considering all recent editions to the Conceptual Manipulation page. Although I would be only rooting for this supplement.

It seems more appropriate for me to consider that this is precisely combination of <Matter Manipulation+Transmutation+Immunity Bypassing> (2). How do you look at both variants?

 

[Mand21]

Conceptual background (1) for TGOALID is an insecure epithet with all recent editions of the Conceptual Manipulation page. Although I would be only rooting for this supplement.
It seems more appropriate for me to consider that this is precisely combination of <Matter Manipulation+Transmutation+Immunity Bypassing> (2). How do you look at both variants?

Can this really be called transmutation? It's not like transmutation was the goal or primary effect or even an important use of his ability, or like he intends to use it with the very intention of transmutation. Almost a sort of collateral damage.

I think we can put immunity bypassing with logic manip and explain the logic manip as being restricted to that. It's not like we have many full-fledged hyperversatile necromancers within the Death Manipulation users, so it's not a problem to give him LM for a single logic distortion effect.

 

[Belyompusct]

Just put it here as it were described in the light novel.

"Then, Ainz's trump card took effect. In that moment — the world died.

This was not metaphorical. Everything died.

The Einherjar evaporated into white mist as it couched its lance, and dispersed before Ainz's eyes. Even a homunculus with no concept of life died instantly. Shalltear's familiars shared the same fate, unable to resist the destruction which overtook them

That was not all.

Even the air — which was not even alive to begin with — fell into death. For over one hundred meters in all directions, the air was no longer breathable. If any living creature tried to respire within that area, their lungs would be corrupted by the deadly air, and they would die.

Neither did the land escape the embrace of death. The terrain in a hundred meter radius was instantly transmuted into sand.

Only Shalltear and Ainz could move in this world, where only death remained.

Ainz's trump card, ÒÇîThe Goal Of All Life Is DeathÒÇì strengthened the effect of instant death magic and skills. Thus augmented, those instant-death effects could bypass any immunities or resistance and kill their targets after a certain amount of time had passed.

One could resist it by using a resurrection effect on themselves within twelve seconds, as Shalltear had.

The air and the land had also died because of that effect.

In YGGDRASIL, the environment would not have succumbed, but in this new world, the effects were quite appropriate to the skill. All things were equal in the face of Death.

Ainz himself was taken aback by this strange effect. The land had not died like this in YGGDRASIL. He could not help but shake his head after witnessing the effects of the game's powers in the real world."

 

[Mand21]

I'm chuckling while reading this because that's a whole new level of death hax. Yeah, that's conceptual manipulation. Pseudo-platonic, I'd say?

 

[Belyompusct]

Yep, seems legit. Man, I would gladly look, what will be the result of combining spell like True Death with an augmentation such as TGOALID.

 

[Mand21]

I'd actually like to know the result of fusing it together with no other spell but AVADA KEDAVRA.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

>That's broken. Should it fall into some slight degree of concept manipulation or logic distortion by killing stuff to which the concept of life itself does not apply?

No.

Killing things that cant die due to being inanimate=/=Bypassing the concept of death.

 

[Belyompusct]

Define concept of death.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

"Concept Destruction: The ability to destroy or remove a concept. By using the ability concepts are removed from reality. This can be wide-spread or very targeted, either erased the concept of an overarching fundamental principle, such as space, or an individual. When destroyed at this level, nothing can be restored without using similarly powerful conceptual creation. Conventional Regenerationn or resurrection, no matter how powerful, would prove impossible as the very abstract concept of the character would not exist."

TGOALID meets none of the bolded words.

Its death manipulation,simple as that.

 

[Belyompusct]

Ok. I never worried about it.

 

[OpMasada]

Its just resistance negation

 

[Mand21]

I didn't mean concept destruction. I meant death manipulation with conceptual manipulation. Conceptual destruction is an entirely different thing from using conceptual manipulation to enhance death manipulation.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

I didn't mean concept destruction. I meant death manipulation with conceptual manipulation. Conceptual destruction is an entirely different thing from using conceptual manipulation to enhance death manipulation.

Thats actually still wrong.

Its a simple death manipulation inducement spell. Nothing conceptual is involved

Again saying this is basically saying ainz can scratch beings faaar beyond his tier regardless of the gap.

 

[Parkjammer]

Well it kills objects without the concept of life or death, so it conceptually manipulates the targeted objects on a very small scale. Normally you wouldn't be able to kill air, yet he can manipulate the fact that air has no concept of death and he can kill it anyways.

IDK if that falls under conceptual manipulation, because it would probably fall under concept alteration but it says that the "world is altered in some way to fit this new conceptual definition", when only the world in the AOE is altered

I was thinking it might be conceptual addition/creation because it is adding the concept of death to things that formerly couldn't die, but "one can create the a concept that is unfathomable to the current mind, changing the world to match this new concept". Once again it implys changing the whole world to match the concept and that doesn't sound right.

 

[Mand21]

As Parkjammer says. I don't see how "mere death manipulation" would kill rocks.

 

[Belyompusct]

First things first, i should probably remind some people that the Reality Warping, ðíonceptual Manipulation (At-least alteration) and Law Manipulation (At-least alteration) for the Overlord-verse is not a curiosity or abnormality. In-verse there are World Items - rare exemplars of weapons made from the fallen leaves (Actually, these "leaves" are the scattered remnants of the worlds destroyed by N├¡├░höggr, World Eater, the final boss of YGGDRASIL) of the World Tree (Universe), each of them is equivalent in might to the entire world. If you follow the YGGDRASIL's lore, their very existence transcends the laws of logic and physics (From their description it noted that they're breaking/warping the game balance just by existing in someone's hands.) The most powerful of the World Items (Top 20) are able to alter some aspects of reality at the conceptual level: reshape the functioning mechanics of various magical systems (Five Elements Overcoming has the power to request the game developers to change part of the game's magic system in YGGDRASIL) or putting into practice all that the soul desires (Ouroboros can directly contact the operating company who develop YGGDRASIL and request one thing the wielder of Ouroboros want from them).


After Ainz's transfer to the NW, the power of the World Class Items increased repeatedly. A good example, Super-Tier Magic, called "Wish Upon A Star" (lesser version of Ouroboros). Before in the game, it simply offered 200 wishes to choose from. After arriving in the New World, Ainz stated that the WUAS can realize any possible wish, including power stealing and so on (though the restriction in EXP is still a thing).

Just good food for thoughts.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Why not just place it in Ainz's profile as "Limited Conceptual Manipulation" (restricted to alteration)? Ainz's TGoALID can evidently help help kill things that aren't living or lacks the concept of life, but it also doesn't seem to affect the entire world to do so, as shown when it only affects things within its range.

 

[Belyompusct]

But it also cannot affect abstracts. Only material things. I hardly belive that TGOALID can suddenly induce death to the non-corporeal entity.