Grappler Baki Discussion Thread 3

[NotoriouSoda]

Damn now that the only upgrades are finished you guys got anyone you want to throw at Yujiro?

 

[CuddleFox]

Thinking about it. I would like Luffy to have a revenge, but I don't see a key where one would not stomp the other.
Will probably make a list of all the characters I know and their tiers if the cast's AP change in the future.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

To be honest I'd love to do some matches with relatively unknown Baki characters, but it'd make for excessively simple matches...

Ron Shobun and Che Guevara in particular I wanted to do a match with.

 

[CuddleFox]

I think it would be more readable to reorganize the verse page by putting the characters by group membership and serie instead of their martial art.
That would be waaaaaaay easier to find them, as currently you need to already know the verse page to get where are all the characters. Cuz it looks like a mess because a lot of characters that don't feel like going together are put together.

I would do it like that:

Hanma Bloodline
Baki Hanma
Jack Hanma
Yuichiro Hanma
Yujiro Hanma

Recurring characters
Doppo Orochi
Goki Shibukawa
Kaoru Hanayama
Katsumi Orochi
Retsu Kaioh

Grappler Baki
Atsushi Suedo
Motobe Izou
Shinogi Kosho
Junichi Hanada
Kato Kiyosumi
Mount Toba
Kureha Shinogi
Yuri Chakovsky
Reichi Ando
Yasha Ape
Chiba brothers
Kuraishi
Sanada
Gaia
Shumei Kano

Maximum Tournament fighters
Moko Ri
Kohei Hatanaka
Andreas Reagan
Bunnoshin Inagi
Roland Istaz
Sergei Taktarov
Richard Filth
Chiharu Shiba
Iron Michael
Zulu
Kengo Misaki
Kinryuuzan
Yu Amanai
Kanji Igari
Alexander Gallen

New Grappler Baki
Spec
Dorian Kaioh
Hector Doyle
Sikorsky
Ryuukou Yanagi
Morio Sonoda
Biscuit Oliva
Muhammad Ali
Muhammad Ali Jr.

Raitai fighters
Chin Kaioh
Han Kaioh
Jo Kaioh
Jyaku Kaioh
Kaku Kaioh
Ri Kaioh
Ron Shobun
Ryu Kaioh
Shunsei Kaku
Yoh Kaioh
Yoo Cho

Son of Ogre
Jun Guevaru
Mouth
Pickle
Joe Crasier

Baki dou
Sam Pierre Atlas
Musashi Miyamoto

Bakidou
Nomi no Sukune
Taima no Kehaya
Nomi no Sukune II

6 grand sumos
Kyogei
Shachihoko
Taketsurugi
Shishimaru
Honoo

Animals
Alligator
Anaconda
Deinonychus
Giant Elephant
King
Kokoe Poison Dart Frog
Musashi
T-Rex

Gaiden episodes
Iwao Muneuchi
Ryuji Tokura

Garouden
Jumei Kuga
Jyohei Tsutsumi
Tanba Bunshichi

 

[NotoriouSoda]

I think it would be more readable to reorganize the verse page by putting the characters by group membership and serie instead of their martial art.
That would be waaaaaaay easier to find them, as currently you need to already know the verse page to get where are all the characters. Cuz it looks like a mess because a lot of characters that don't feel like going together are put together.

I would do it like that:

Hanma Bloodline
Baki Hanma
Jack Hanma
Yuichiro Hanma
Yujiro Hanma

Recurring characters
Doppo Orochi
Goki Shibukawa
Kaoru Hanayama
Katsumi Orochi
Retsu Kaioh

Grappler Baki
Atsushi Suedo
Motobe Izou
Shinogi Kosho
Junichi Hanada
Kato Kiyosumi
Mount Toba
Kureha Shinogi
Yuri Chakovsky
Reichi Ando
Yasha Ape
Chiba brothers
Kuraishi
Sanada
Gaia
Shumei Kano

Maximum Tournament fighters
Moko Ri
Kohei Hatanaka
Andreas Reagan
Bunnoshin Inagi
Roland Istaz
Sergei Taktarov
Richard Filth
Chiharu Shiba
Iron Michael
Zulu
Kengo Misaki
Kinryuuzan
Yu Amanai
Kanji Igari
Alexander Gallen

New Grappler Baki
Spec
Dorian Kaioh
Hector Doyle
Sikorsky
Ryuukou Yanagi
Morio Sonoda
Biscuit Oliva
Muhammad Ali
Muhammad Ali Jr.

Raitai fighters
Chin Kaioh
Han Kaioh
Jo Kaioh
Jyaku Kaioh
Kaku Kaioh
Ri Kaioh
Ron Shobun
Ryu Kaioh
Shunsei Kaku
Yoh Kaioh
Yoo Cho

Son of Ogre
Jun Guevaru
Mouth
Pickle
Joe Crasier

Baki dou
Sam Pierre Atlas
Musashi Miyamoto

Bakidou
Nomi no Sukune
Taima no Kehaya
Nomi no Sukune II

6 grand sumos
Kyogei
Shachihoko
Taketsurugi
Shishimaru
Honoo

Animals
Alligator
Anaconda
Deinonychus
Giant Elephant
King
Kokoe Poison Dart Frog
Musashi
T-Rex

Gaiden episodes
Iwao Muneuchi
Ryuji Tokura

Garouden
Jumei Kuga
Jyohei Tsutsumi
Tanba Bunshichi

Yes all of this

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Fully agreed.

I'm still a bit iffy on directly scaling Garouden characters, at least not without making the versions of the Baki and the Garouden universe distinct, but it is fine for now.

 

[CuddleFox]

There is already a garouden verse page, I don't know why we keep them even if this is connected to Baki.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Some Garouden characters were referreted to/appeared in minor cameos within the story. People saw it fit to include them on Baki universe as notworthy characters fought each other.

Still, both in-universe logic and lore would be incredibly inconsistent if both were canon to each other. The Garouden universe encompasses a novel series, a film, several manga and even two video games, with the manga adaptation in fact coming after the novels and the film.

 

[CuddleFox]

Ok, changed the verse page.

 

[LordGinSama]

Yall ain't gonna be happy when I axe class M lifting strength, class M is absolutely wank and nothing supports it either. And don't try to tell me that Baki's Rock feat is legitimately class K, it shouldn't even be considered as such as Baki isn't even ******* lifting anything or using the same muscle groups as one would use for lifting strength. His class K rock feat is a feat of crushing, I.E attack potency and not a feat of lifting.


Class M is a textbook outlier and also why are we assuming Yujiro’s durability scales to a nuclear warhead at point blank range? That isn't stated, and we're also assuming that the Baki verse has comparable nuclear technology to our own, which isn't the case. At this point we might as well scale Yujiro to the original Tsar Bomba which has a yield of 100 Megatons, or the Castle Bravo which is 15 Megatons.

Like seriously? You guys really just scaled Yujiro to over half of the series, totally ignoring the fact that Yujiro holds himself back most of the time while fighting. The verse is filled with outliers and very inconsistent scaling, you can be damn sure to expect a downgrade soon.

 

[CuddleFox]

Grip strength go in lifting strength. Always has been in every verse. Lifting feats can also be calculated as AP feats.

I also think that both Yujiro's earthquake and him scaling to a nuclear weapon are outliers, because the only characters that said so were obviously over-magnifying Yujiro because they were impressed by him and only knew him out of all the underground fighters, and themselves said that it would never be verifiable anyway, and when he showed his full strength, like during his fight with Kaku and Baki, he clearly didn't have such strength at all. And it make statistics aberation, like a lot of characters jumping from 9-A to Low 7-B without transition while the series obviously increases the characters strength little by little.
But that's what everyone think, and we're deciding together. ^^

As we are coming out of a very big CRT, I think it would be better to wait a little bit before going back to modifications that change the whole verse, because there is a risk that it will just bore everyone to have to rethink everything every morning.

 

[LordGinSama]

Grip strength go in lifting strength. Always has been in every verse. Lifting feats can also be calculated as AP feats.

Inherently false, crushing isn't a form of grip strength that translates into lifting strength. The best example of this would be King Pin crushing a boulder Baki style, which is considered as a feat of AP. Already talked to the staff here about the topic off and on site, this isn't a valid example of lifting strength.

I also think that both Yujiro's earthquake and him scaling to a nuclear weapon are outliers, because the only characters that said so were obviously over-magnifying Yujiro because they were impressed by him and only knew him out of all the underground fighters, and themselves said that it would never be verifiable anyway, and when he showed his full strength, like during his fight with Kaku and Baki, he clearly didn't have such strength at all. And it make statistics aberation, like a lot of characters jumping from 9-A to Low 7-B without transition while the series obviously increases the characters strength little by little.
But that's what everyone think, and we're deciding together. ^^

So in other words, the stats were applied to quickly and nobody saw the incoming issue of basically half the verse downscaling from the strongest character in verse? Well if you plan on fixing the mistakes then that should be fine.

As we are coming out of a very big CRT, I think it would be better to wait a little bit before going back to modifications that change the whole verse, because there is a risk that it will just bore everyone to have to rethink everything every morning.

People getting bored isn't part of my concern, now what does concern me are wanked stats that don't add up logically.

 

[CuddleFox]

People getting bored isn't part of my concern, now what does concern me are wanked stats that don't add up logically.

How about calm down and be nice?
Keep in mind that we're doing this for fun, we're not here to argue. You're not playing your life, and if no one participates in your CRT because people are bored with too much Baki at some point, your changes won't happen.
Relax and don't treat the people you're talking to like a bunch of shit just because they disagree on the power of a fictional character.

So in other words, the stats were applied to quickly and nobody saw the incoming issue of basically half the verse downscaling from the strongest character in verse?

That's not the problem, the problem is that the change of tier is too raw.
Half of the cast can very well downgrade from the most powerful, and an author can very well build his manga like that if he feels like it. If we put Yujiro tier 8 for example, half of the cast will still downscale from him.

 

[LordGinSama]

How about calm down and be nice?
Keep in mind that we're doing this for fun, we're not here to argue. You're not playing your life, and if no one participates in your CRT because people are bored with too much Baki at some point, your changes won't happen.
Relax and don't treat the people you're talking to like a bunch of shit just because they disagree on the power of a fictional character.

Well first of all, practice what you preach because nothing there was aggressive or hostile in nature. I'd appreciate it if you'd cease the gratuitous amount of sensitivity, this is a gross overreaction. Me starting that people getting bored is none of my concern is valid, as that's how the wiki works. This wiki doesn't rely on the users not being "bored." what we thrive for and seek after is accuracy, this is an indexing wiki foremost, users being bored due to the lack of Vs matches is absolutely irrelevant. This is something quite literally anyone familiar with the site will tell you.

That's not the problem, the problem is that the change of tier is too raw.
Half of the cast can very well downgrade from the most powerful, and an author can very well build his manga like that if he feels like it. If we put Yujiro tier 8 for example, half of the cast will still downscale from him.

This is inherently false as well, Yujiro shows a vast superiority to the vast majority of the verse. In terms of skill, speed, strength and durability Yujiro is second to none, and absolutely stomps on the verse casually barring a very select few. "The change of tier is too raw." is also irrelevant and isn't even a legitimate argument. There's no such thing as a tier of raw change, there are verses who have tier 2 feats that get downgraded to tier 6, at no point has this argument ever been entertained and Baki isn't going to be the exception.



Simply put these are typical wiki standards, and what your arguing goes entirety against said wiki practice. I don't really know how much easier i can explain this to you, again no aggression just me explaining how this wiki works.

 

[CuddleFox]

Well first of all, practice what you preach because nothing there was aggressive or hostile in nature.

Don't play on words, "I don't care what you guys want, we're gonna do this right now whether you like it or not" is what you said translated into. "you can be damn sure to expect a downgrade soon." feel like a menace while you don't have such power, among others examples.
Just telling you to be nice when you talk to people and stop talking to us as if we were morons who let something unforgivable happen. You're not at war with any of us so don't talk as if just to say "I didn't insult you huh" when you are pointed out.
Anyway, I'm not going to argue about it anymore. You do you.

this is an indexing wiki foremost, users being bored due to the lack of Vs matches is absolutely irrelevant.

Users being bored can cause your CRT to have no response and not getting validated in the end. This isn't due to a lack of Vs matches, this is due to getting in another huge-looking CRT right after finishing one that was hundred-messages long.
And again, yes this is an indexing wiki, we're here to find out the power of the characters we like, but you're not going to lose your job if a tier is incorrect somewhere, calm down, it's not "our ultimate goal to find the truth" and it's not something "we strive for" or something "we'll work as hard as necessary" to find out, it's something we do out of curiosity because that's fun. You shouldn't take it that seriously.

there are verses who have tier 2 feats that get downgraded to tier 6

I agree, except that Baki is not one of them. All the characters have been slowly evolving to Yujiro's level for more than 100 volumes. And there is no evolution that felt like "Well NOW he's capable of destroying a city", even for Baki and his dad ^^
Anyway I don't understand why we're discussing it, since we're both okay to downgrade some characters.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Before answering, Gin, I must say that your tone was indeed agressive. I couldn't care less about upgrades or downgrades on a verse, on a sense of "liking it" or "not". I don't think anyone who truly loves a fictional series would love less their franchise because some site on the internet decided that they can't break a wall with a punch. "Yall ain't gonna be happy when I axe class M lifting strength" doesn't sound non-agressive.

With that being said, answering your statements:

1. I agree that grip strength shouldn't scale to lifting strength. In fact, if I were to revise the whole wiki, which I won't and no one has the resources or patience to, I would break the lifting strength further than how it is. Lifting strength on itself can vary wildly depending on which limb, position or method of lifting you are using, and that is not even going into pushing, gripping, pinching, and some other forms of strength. However, not only it isn't a Baki problem (Way too many profiles use gripping as a measure for strength, and no, I do not have any specific examples in mind, but there are plenty and it isn't hard to find), but if we assume for the sake of generalization that lifting, pushing, and many other types of strength are somewhat comparable, at least on the same ballpark, it does make sense for, until a wiki revision goes through, gripping stays tied to LS. If there is an official statement or decision adding another thing to profiles or officially adding it to AP, I'm all for it, just keep what I said in mind.
2. Yujiro's scaling has two factors: Consistency and fairness. By fairness, I mean that the sort of statement Yujiro received is commonly accepted in the wiki as long as there is supporting evidence, makes sense by in-universe logic and/or isn't contradicted. And it is accepted because, tying in with consistency, it is a consistent theme of Yujiro (Being above all weaponry by repeated statements, everyone believing that mankind can't do much against him, etc...), it is supported by many feats (Yujiro stopping a true, 6-7 scale earthquake with a punch and causing quakes with his own blows, Yuichiro possibly tanking an island's bombardment that changed its whole geography, several people that are way weaker than him also doing quaking feats) and the contradictions that are there are minimal.
3. I do agree that it is weird to see people scaling to Yujiro so much. There are some that, if I'm not mistaken, do directly scale to adolescent Yujiro or at least to Yujiro at the point that Baki had his first fight with him. I'm a bit skeptical of scaling them, so I'd be fine with a revision, but it is a noteworthy thing.

 

[NotoriouSoda]

ok time to respond

Yall ain't gonna be happy when I axe class M lifting strength, class M is absolutely wank and nothing supports it either. And don't try to tell me that Baki's Rock feat is legitimately class K, it shouldn't even be considered as such as Baki isn't even ******* lifting anything or using the same muscle groups as one would use for lifting strength. His class K rock feat is a feat of crushing, I.E attack potency and not a feat of lifting.


Class M is a textbook outlier and also why are we assuming Yujiro’s durability scales to a nuclear warhead at point blank range? That isn't stated, and we're also assuming that the Baki verse has comparable nuclear technology to our own, which isn't the case. At this point we might as well scale Yujiro to the original Tsar Bomba which has a yield of 100 Megatons, or the Castle Bravo which is 15 Megatons.

Like seriously? You guys really just scaled Yujiro to over half of the series, totally ignoring the fact that Yujiro holds himself back most of the time while fighting. The verse is filled with outliers and very inconsistent scaling, you can be damn sure to expect a downgrade soon.

Class M comes for Sukune II which only 2 characters scale to one of them being a possibly. Nobody else even scales to the feat so idk how it can be wank when it was already discussed and accepted. But if you have a problem with it's not just Baki, every verse has this and is going to be in need of change.

The low 7-B comes from multiple statements about Yujiro being superior to MORDERN nukes, not the strongest nuke ever made. And wtf is with the downplay here, yes they are compared to our own nuclear technology. The Baki verse is based on the real world it would be stupid of us to not consider it.

The scaling doesn't just come from Yujiro the only ones who scale to him are Baki and MM only this has been discussed in the thread. The rest of the scaling comes from everyone downscaling from Oliva, Pickle, MM, and Baki.

Grip strength go in lifting strength. Always has been in every verse. Lifting feats can also be calculated as AP feats.

I also think that both Yujiro's earthquake and him scaling to a nuclear weapon are outliers, because the only characters that said so were obviously over-magnifying Yujiro because they were impressed by him and only knew him out of all the underground fighters, and themselves said that it would never be verifiable anyway, and when he showed his full strength, like during his fight with Kaku and Baki, he clearly didn't have such strength at all. And it make statistics aberation, like a lot of characters jumping from 9-A to Low 7-B without transition while the series obviously increases the characters strength little by little.
But that's what everyone think, and we're deciding together. ^^

As we are coming out of a very big CRT, I think it would be better to wait a little bit before going back to modifications that change the whole verse, because there is a risk that it will just bore everyone to have to rethink everything every morning.

No it not bro. Yujiro isnt going to be destroy an entire city going full power every time. Does Goku destroy the entire universe when going all out, does all might at full power need to destroy an entire city? No they don't, everyone including ant agrees with low-7b Yujiro and this is supported by multiply statement in canon. Those characters who were making those statement weren't just some middle schoolers hyping up Yujiro, they were military experts that ran entire army's that were destroy by hand. Yujiro isnt just some guy, he is the worlds strongest creature.

All the character from the start of the series have slowly been catching up to Yujiro tier, the perfect example being Retsu. While not as stronger he was still was able to put up a fight against MM. When Yujiro was 7-C are solution was to make those top tiers low 7-C to make sure they weren't stuck at 9-A. If you guys can find some where to put these characters that find but your going to need to make an argument on why they shouldn't bare minimum downscale.

 

[LordGinSama]

Don't play on words, "I don't care what you guys want, we're gonna do this right now whether you like it or not" is what you said translated into. "you can be damn sure to expect a downgrade soon." feel like a menace while you don't have such power, among others examples.

Fortunately I didn't say those words, nor did i make it seem that way, again this is a gross overreaction once more. If that's the conclusion you came to then that's on you for your own personal interpretation. And actually, yes I do indeed have that power. I have the right to make a CRT at any given time unless a verse rule is in effect, which there isn't so again, inherently false.

Just telling you to be nice when you talk to people and stop talking to us as if we were morons who let something unforgivable happen. You're not at war with any of us so don't talk as if just to say "I didn't insult you huh" when you are pointed out.
Anyway, I'm not going to argue about it anymore. You do you.

Again, wasn't being rude and that's completely on you for viewing it as such. What I said cannot be taken at face or personal value, it was me going over the rules that's a standard in the wiki, there is no such thing as a "too much of a raw tier change." that's never been a utilized practice here, don't get mad at me over the rules.

Users being bored can cause your CRT to have no response and not getting validated in the end. This isn't due to a lack of Vs matches, this is due to getting in another huge-looking CRT right after finishing one that was hundred-messages long.

Again, this is irrelevant as if its controversial, which it is then it will have participants. If a user doesn't wanna participate that's on them, that's why we have staff.

And again, yes this is an indexing wiki, we're here to find out the power of the characters we like, but you're not going to lose your job if a tier is incorrect somewhere, calm down, it's not "our ultimate goal to find the truth" and it's not something "we strive for" or something "we'll work as hard as necessary" to find out, it's something we do out of curiosity because that's fun. You shouldn't take it that seriously.

Hmmm I really do find it genuinely funny that your convinced I'm taking this on a personal level, no this is me calling a spade a spade as I see fit. And that's also inherently false, we seek the most accurate stats possible for our pages, fun isn't the main propose of the wiki, indexing is.

I agree, except that Baki is not one of them. All the characters have been slowly evolving to Yujiro's level for more than 100 volumes. And there is no evolution that felt like "Well NOW he's capable of destroying a city", even for Baki and his dad ^^
Anyway I don't understand why we're discussing it, since we're both okay to downgrade some characters.

Baki is absolutely one of them, going from 9-B / tier 8 levels of strength to suddenly now being thousands of times more powerful while also lacking the feats is a textbook definition of an outlier, regardless of the training. You act as if they trained vigorously for dozens of years when that isn't the case, with even Yujiro two shotting Oliva casually.

Before answering, Gin, I must say that your tone was indeed agressive. I couldn't care less about upgrades or downgrades on a verse, on a sense of "liking it" or "not". I don't think anyone who truly loves a fictional series would love less their franchise because some site on the internet decided that they can't break a wall with a punch. "Yall ain't gonna be happy when I axe class M lifting strength" doesn't sound non-agressive.

Tone is something that's subjective in nature, again what I said wasn't rude nor was it aggressive. That's on you for interpreting it as such, I'm not gonna overextend myself and say "heyyyy buddy how are you? I wanna discuss some stats with you today neighbor." this is the real world, not elementary school. I am in no way shape or form obligated to be friends with you, only civil which I was. So me giving a forewarning regarding a CRT is now aggressive? Gotcha .

With that being said, answering your statements:

1. I agree that grip strength shouldn't scale to lifting strength. In fact, if I were to revise the whole wiki, which I won't and no one has the resources or patience to, I would break the lifting strength further than how it is. Lifting strength on itself can vary wildly depending on which limb, position or method of lifting you are using, and that is not even going into pushing, gripping, pinching, and some other forms of strength. However, not only it isn't a Baki problem (Way too many profiles use gripping as a measure for strength, and no, I do not have any specific examples in mind, but there are plenty and it isn't hard to find)

Already done here with the first part but I'm gonna address the blatant elephant in the room. Stop using other verses as an excuse, two rights don't make a wrong, other verses are completely irrelevant here. We're talking Baki, and nothing else.

1. , but if we assume for the sake of generalization that lifting, pushing, and many other types of strength are somewhat comparable, at least on the same ballpark, it does make sense for, until a wiki revision goes through, gripping stays tied to LS. If there is an official statement or decision adding another thing to profiles or officially adding it to AP, I'm all for it, just keep what I said in mind.

How long have you been here..? Because pushing isn't at all comparable to lifting something, pushing, punching and crushing aren't considered LS here, we've already gone through that revision fortunately for us.

1. Yujiro's scaling has two factors: Consistency and fairness. By fairness, I mean that the sort of statement Yujiro received is commonly accepted in the wiki as long as there is supporting evidence, makes sense by in-universe logic and/or isn't contradicted. And it is accepted because, tying in with consistency, it is a consistent theme of Yujiro (Being above all weaponry by repeated statements, everyone believing that mankind can't do much against him, etc...),

Not, no, no Venom you can't have your cake and eat it too, you yourself are the same man who said this, and I quote "it doesn't mean it isn't hyperbole just because its stated more than once." especially whenever in the context it's to hype Yujiro up while being terrified of him. It doesn't help your case either that in the same "nuke" scans its stated that they could work if he didn't see them coming, implying that the nukes could indeed kill him.

1. it is supported by many feats (Yujiro stopping a true, 6-7 scale earthquake with a punch and causing quakes with his own blows, Yuichiro possibly tanking an island's bombardment that changed its whole geography, several people that are way weaker than him also doing quaking feats) and the contradictions that are there are minimal.

The first quake isn't supportive evidence for a 7-B rating, and the other quakes are calculated at tier 8. Yuichiro's feat is irrelevant and left vague, and even if he did tank it he'd only be exposed to a very small portion, another common practice we utilize is finding how close the character is to the explosion.

1. I do agree that it is weird to see people scaling to Yujiro so much. There are some that, if I'm not mistaken, do directly scale to adolescent Yujiro or at least to Yujiro at the point that Baki had his first fight with him. I'm a bit skeptical of scaling them, so I'd be fine with a revision, but it is a noteworthy thing.

The scaling is my main concern here, there are characters who scales to him who have no business being even remotely comparable to him.

 

[LordGinSama]

ok time to respond


Class M comes for Sukune II which only 2 characters scale to one of them being a possibly. Nobody else even scales to the feat so idk how it can be wank when it was already discussed and accepted. But if you have a problem with it's not just Baki, every verse has this and is going to be in need of change.

No, not every verse is going to be effected here. It's just Baki, crushing isn't a form of lifting and if you'd like i could even get staff here to tell you exactly the same thing.

The low 7-B comes from multiple statements about Yujiro being superior to MORDERN nukes, not the strongest nuke ever made. And wtf is with the downplay here, yes they are compared to our own nuclear technology. The Baki verse is based on the real world it would be stupid of us to not consider it.

Multiple statements doesn't disqualify something being a hyperbole, the context of the statement is what matters not the statement itself. Also extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, show me proof of Baki's technology being comparable to modern day technology.


And you obviously have no idea how nuclear progression works, we have MOAB's that pack way more power than the first two A bombs and those aren't even nuclear. I see no reason to scale Yujiro to the Castle Bravo.

The scaling doesn't just come from Yujiro the only ones who scale to him are Baki and MM only this has been discussed in the thread. The rest of the scaling comes from everyone downscaling from Oliva, Pickle, MM, and Baki.

And those who downscales still indirectly scale to Yujiro's statements in some way shape or form, half of the verse does now.

No it not bro. Yujiro isnt going to be destroy an entire city going full power every time. Does Goku destroy the entire universe when going all out, does all might at full power need to destroy an entire city? No they don't, everyone including ant agrees with low-7b

Ant isnt knowledge with Baki, he simply agrees without doing research, and even showed skepticism. Also we know what an AoE Fallacy is, those examples don't work because Goku has multiple 3-A feats and statements, All Might's stats come from feats which are consistent.

Yujiro and this is supported by multiply statement in canon. Those characters who were making those statement weren't just some middle schoolers hyping up Yujiro, they were military experts that ran entire army's that were destroy by hand. Yujiro isnt just some guy, he is the worlds strongest creature.

The president isnt a military expert, Obama nor Trump know Jack shit about how the military actually works due to neither one having ever been in the Military themselves. They just give orders from time to time, they don't plan out strategies.

 

[CuddleFox]

And actually, yes I do indeed have that power. I have the right to make a CRT at any given time unless a verse rule is in effect, which there isn't so again, inherently false.

I fail to see how you don't get at all what's wrong with your behavior.

fun isn't the main propose of the wiki, indexing is.

I see how now.

I don't have time to waste with that kind of user.
Anyway, if you plan on doing a CRT, do it, that will be more effective than answering here to arguments in a disparate way and we will be able to better summarize the changes.
I hope that at some point you will realize that this kind of mentality will make that even if you're right in the end, it is way more counterproductive than you might think if you want to make changes to a wiki. You don't have to be our friend, but your changes depend on us. Keep it in mind.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Tone is something that's subjective in nature, again what I said wasn't rude nor was it aggressive. That's on you for interpreting it as such, I'm not gonna overextend myself and say "heyyyy buddy how are you? I wanna discuss some stats with you today neighbor." this is the real world, not elementary school. I am in no way shape or form obligated to be friends with you, only civil which I was. So me giving a forewarning regarding a CRT is now aggressive? Gotcha .

I won't insist on this either. I would comment further, but it'd be pointless.

Already done here with the first part but I'm gonna address the blatant elephant in the room. Stop using other verses as an excuse, two rights don't make a wrong, other verses are completely irrelevant here. We're talking Baki, and nothing else.

I'm not? I fully agreed with the assessment. I even commented that is right on other discussions. My point is that it would be better to make a revision concerning many others as well, to tackle on the most verses as possible.

How long have you been here..? Because pushing isn't at all comparable to lifting something, pushing, punching and crushing aren't considered LS here, we've already gone through that revision fortunately for us.

Several years. And if such revisions have gone through, then the wiki at large is still unaware of it. I've repeatedly scrolled on random profiles, every day I look at a few random profiles, and I consistently find such pages.

Not, no, no Venom you can't have your cake and eat it too, you yourself are the same man who said this, and I quote "it doesn't mean it isn't hyperbole just because its stated more than once." especially whenever in the context it's to hype Yujiro up while being terrified of him. It doesn't help your case either that in the same "nuke" scans its stated that they could work if he didn't see them coming, implying that the nukes could indeed kill him.

Yes, which is why I don't rely on statements alone unless I have a very good reason to, which in Baki universe, I have due to other evidence.

That is a valid point, and one I hadn't considered. I went to check all citations, and three were done, as you said, by wary people that would intend to hype him. However, three of them weren't: Chapter 297, pages 9-10, Yujiro himself stated that even the entire power of a state and of the army couldn't defeat or match him. Chapter 260, the narrator himself in pages 11-12 stated that the army couldn't match him, it also cited the state, but it felt more like Yujiro intimidated the heads of state. Chapter 263, page 5, the narrator again explicitly said that he was stronger than nuclear weapons, or at least explicitly stronger than a country that has the power and will to nuke a city.

Yujiro maybe can be killed by a nuke if caught unaware. I do agree it doesn't make his tier exceed a nuke by much, but it makes it hard to not think he wouldn't scale otherwise.

The first quake isn't supportive evidence for a 7-B rating, and the other quakes are calculated at tier 8. Yuichiro's feat is irrelevant and left vague, and even if he did tank it he'd only be exposed to a very small portion, another common practice we utilize is finding how close the character is to the explosion.

I agree that 7-C-ish is a safer place for Yujiro to be, but several feats of the level do not make a 7-B rating be implausible. I'm probably explaining it wrong, but it's like seeing a being who has done several 3-B feats have a 3-A feat. It isn't implausible to bump him up. It is very fair to disagree with a 7-B rating, but it isn't far-fetched nor unlikely for the character to be 7-B.

I don't dispute either of those two in the end. Yuichiro is just a possibly, and the only calculated quakes I've seen were one done by Baki.

The scaling is my main concern here, there are characters who scales to him who have no business being even remotely comparable to him.

That's fine.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Our wiki's standards on backscaling is the same as upscaling. It doesn't matter if you backscale from 50 stomps behind the main person you scale from, you still scale to that person just massively less so. Baki is a series where very few people actually scale to the god tier, but almost everyone scales to those few.

Also grip strength is explicitly lifting strength. It is force over time, not force over a singular moment.

 

[LordGinSama]

Our wiki's standards on backscaling is the same as upscaling. It doesn't matter if you backscale from 50 stomps behind the main person you scale from, you still scale to that person just massively less so. Baki is a series where very few people actually scale to the god tier, but almost everyone scales to those few.

"Massively less so" meaning not comparable to one another, we accept backscaling to a certain degree, if Character A is causing major damage to character B with only a few strikes than Character B isn't enduring the strikes via durability, they're enduring it via endurance. Something separate from durability, Yujiro casually overpowered and two one Olivia, Olivia failing to do any damage and was sent reeling back from the first strikes. I can agree with the legitimacy of some characters and their scaling but others are inherently flawed.

Also grip strength is explicitly lifting strength. It is force over time, not force over a singular moment.

Grip and crushing strength are separate things, for starters and secondly this is common sense, don't see the point in stating the obvious whenever the rock curshing feats don't translate into LS.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Casual Yujiro put Yanagi into the ground. Oliva was not only still conscious but was otherwise unharmed. Also, Oliva fought Demon Back Baki, who duked it out with Yujiro, so I have no idea why you choose to use Yujiro as scaling for Oliva.

Refusing to debate crushing strength being LS doesn't mean you're in the right. This isn't an objective fact.

 

[LordGinSama]

Casual Yujiro put Yanagi into the ground.

Yanagi is 9-A, and was damaged greatly by Motobe. Olivia isn't 9-A unlike Yanagi and it blow didn't kill Yanagi either.

Oliva was not only still conscious but was otherwise unharmed.

So being tossed back on your ass and being put down and bleeding from the mouth and nose and having his hands crushed by Yujiro with no effort is "otherwise unharmed."? That's being intentionally dishonest.

Also, Oliva fought Demon Back Baki, who duked it out with Yujiro, so I have no idea why you choose to use Yujiro as scaling for Oliva.

Olivia did not fight the same Baki that Yujiro did, Baki when he fought Olivia doesn't scale to a much stronger Baki who endured much more than anything Olivia ever has.

Refusing to debate crushing strength being LS doesn't mean you're in the right. This isn't an objective fact.

That's not the reason its incorrect, crushing doesn't utilize any muscle groups used for lifting. Already had a discussion with several calc mods regarding if crushing is LS, all of which said no. This is indeed an object fact, now let me play your own game here. You saying it isn't an objective fact doesn't mean it's subjective.

 

[LordGinSama]

literally had a thread about this before. Several calc members also don't accept crushing as LS, so don't condescend to me as if what I'm saying isn't true as if i'm saying it just based on personal beliefs.

 

[NotoriouSoda]

literally had a thread about this before. Several calc members also don't accept crushing as LS, so don't condescend to me as if what I'm saying isn't true as if i'm saying it just based on personal beliefs.

Imao fair tomorrow I'll make thread about going back to class 100.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

literally had a thread about this before. Several calc members also don't accept crushing as LS, so don't condescend to me as if what I'm saying isn't true as if i'm saying it just based on personal beliefs.

Wok literally contested Dargoo. So it is still a point of contention and an unfinished debate. I think a whole separate CRT would have to be made on the subject.

Demon Back Baki fought Pickle who was the very next opponent after Oliva. The former being comparable to Yujiro in strength.

 

[LordGinSama]

Wok literally contested Dargoo. So it is still a point of contention and an unfinished debate. I think a whole separate CRT would have to be made on the subject.

Demon Back Baki fought Pickle who was the very next opponent after Oliva. The former being comparable to Yujiro in strength.

Baki, a Baki who's significantly stronger than before, you can't backscale in that type of fashion. With each fight Baki gets a lot stronger than what he was previously, Baki has insane growth both mid and after the fight, attempting to backscale him to the Oliva fight would be like me backscaling Wano G4 to Dressrosa G4.


Also crushing feats are calculated as AP, not lifting.

 

[CuddleFox]

Crushing feat are sometimes calced both in tons of force and AP. As EliminatorVenom said earlier, Lifting Strength and AP have connections.
But the wiki tends to ignore this because fiction does not often link the two.
Also we don't care about lifting strength being called like that, it's just a way of putting how much a character can use force over time. No matter the way.

 

[Amlad22]

My view hasn’t changed on these upgrades since the start. I agree with almost everything Gin is saying just like I said before the upgrade was made. I think the verse should have never gone above 7-C.

 

[NotoriouSoda]

My view hasn’t changed on these upgrades since the start. I agree with almost everything Gin is saying just like I said before the upgrade was made. I think the verse should have never gone above 7-C.

To be fair he's more against the scaling/Class M. But even that the 7-C shit cant be used anymore remember?

 

[Amlad22]

7-C could still be used if we just go back to the old earthquake feat. I really don’t believe the scene showed anything beyond that magnitude. Regardless, there’s other ways to scale the verse. If we actually look solely at feats and not statements the verse doesn’t exceed 8-A which is something to at least take note of. The scaling is bad too but that’s my secondary issue.

 

[NotoriouSoda]

7-C could still be used if we just go back to the old earthquake feat. I really don’t believe the scene showed anything beyond that magnitude. Regardless, there’s other ways to scale the verse. If we actually look solely at feats and not statements the verse doesn’t exceed 8-A which is something to at least take note of. The scaling is bad too but that’s my secondary issue.

So are all the statements just invalid now just because? There are a lot of verse that do the same as Baki for taking statements for there tiers if its backed

 

[CuddleFox]

I don't think it is. All the people who said that Yujiro could tank a nuclear bomb were afraid of him from the beginning and were obviously exagerating what they were saying about him, Obama being a big fan, Trump peeing himself when he saw him for the first time and such, they are not qualified to know if Yujiro can tank a nuclear bomb just because they are presidents or in charge of military forces, and it's a recurring theme of the character that nobody ever tries anything and it's natural to run away from Yujiro Hanma.
Using the fact that an atomic bomb appears in a picture once to illustrate to say that Yujiro's punch is stronger than an atom bomb feels like doing mental gymnastics to make him stronger.
Saying that Yujiro's punch is stronger than an atom bomb is like the people who said back in the day that the boxer George Foreman could take down an elephant. It's an unrealisable image to magnify the strength of someone and nothing more, it will never happen for real. And if it happened, Yujiro wouldn't take it at point-blank range.
Remember that he still have only one tier 7 feat that is just a saying of people that never fought in their live against someone like him, while having a ton of repeated and calcable Tier 8 feats since the very beginning.

His father would deserve a likely Low 7-B (or a likely 7-C given that atom bombs of these times were weaker) because the US was actually about to use their bomb, but Yujiro doesn't deserve that. A at least 8-B+ with a "possibly low 7-B" is more accurate.
With 8-B+, there is a real, usable and undebatable justification, Baki knows the strength of his father and has already faced him, unlike any politician who freaks out when they sees him.

We shouldn't upgrade characters just because we want to upgrade them.
I say that because that's the mindset I had the impression you had during the last big CRT.

 

[Amlad22]

Statements made by random politicians should be taken with a grain of salt. Especially when there’s no feats to back them up.

Feat wise we have quite a few good feats in Tier 8 and one feat that is Tier 7 which is the earthquake feat.

Baki’s earthquake feat is 8-B+ (this severely hurt him)

Baki and Yujiro together could violently shake a skyscraper which probably deserves a Calc. I saw one before putting it at 8-A.

Someone could also calc Yujiro’s giga punch to the ground during his fight with Baki. In terms of concrete destruction nothing has come close to how big that crater was. Probably 8-B as well if I was to take a guess.

Everything points to the verse having a solid rating of 8-B or 8-A with a possibly higher rating attached for the god tiers using the statements we have. This way we are using actual feats for a solid rating and using the sketchy politician statements as just a possibly higher

 

[CuddleFox]

Baki and Yujiro together could violently shake a skyscraper which probably deserves a Calc. I saw one before putting it at 8-A.

I took the other because this one didn't got accepted ^^
The calc group member said that you can't take a building tremor as a earthquake feat if it comes directly from inside that building.

Yujiro’s giga punch to the ground during his fight with Baki.

You mean kaku?

 

[Amlad22]

Is there still a way to calc it then? Should be at least some way to know how much power was needed.

Also no I mean the one he did in the final fight with Baki. It’s way bigger than what he did against Kaku.

 

[NotoriouSoda]

If that’s the case I’m fine with the verse going back to tier 7 lol

 

[LordGinSama]

I think the giga punch is when he tore underground to hit Baki on his opposite side after Baki got him into the King Tiger lock.