Gotta Revise 'Em All, Part 2: Getting to work

[Omegabronic]

I was getting to that, since they literally fight each other in game

Necrozma quickly overpowers them tho

 

[CloverDragon03]

Necrozma quickly overpowers them tho

Not quite. They clash evenly but all Necrozma really needed was the one moment to pin them down so it could do the thing

 

[Lou_change]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:LordTracer/Legendary_Scaling_(Games)

Let’s see

This might be evidence mew scales to his sequel

And Ho-oh doesn’t really have anything to prove it is directly comparable to Lugia

 

[Emerald]

Let’s see

And Ho-oh doesn’t really have anything to prove it is directly comparable to Lugia

Nah
Ho-oh is Lugia’s counterpart it should be fine

 

[CloverDragon03]

Let’s see

And Ho-oh doesn’t really have anything to prove it is directly comparable to Lugia

Counterparts literally always scale to each other. That's why they're counterparts

 

[Lou_change]

Counterparts literally always scale to each other. That's why they're counterparts

they never fight. The in game connection between them is they, both perched on towers in the same city and flew away after one was destroyed, I guess there is the Navel Rock event

 

[CloverDragon03]

they never fight. The in game connection between them is they, both perched on towers in the same city and flew away after one was destroyed, I guess there is the Navel Rock event

Doesn't matter. Defeats the whole purpose if one is suddenly so much stronger than the other

 

[Lou_change]

I am pretty sure it needs to be proven they are comparable unless Suicune is also equal to those two or Pikachu is equal to fully evolved starters

 

[CloverDragon03]

I am pretty sure it needs to be proven they are comparable unless Suicune is also equal to those two or Pikachu is equal to fully evolved starters

Two false equivalences here. Suicune is a part of its own trio, and Pikachu is explicitly a middle-stage Pokemon and only has higher capabilities via the Partner Pikachu in Let's Go

 

[CloverDragon03]

If we have this precedent of the two box-art legends being comparable to each other, why would we suddenly break it based on nothing provable? Occam's Razor, while not a word of law or anything, would even support this

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Third titles legendaries are always stronger than the normal ones tho
Rayquaza > Groudon and Kyogre
Giratina > Dialga and Palkia
Zygarde > Xerneas and Yveltal

 

[CloverDragon03]

Third titles legendaries are always stronger than the normal ones tho
Rayquaza > Groudon and Kyogre
Giratina > Dialga and Palkia

Only one of these two is true

 

[LaserPrecision]

Idk if it helps, but I have a server with a friend where we essentially just compile Pokemon feats, and I have a folder dedicated to all notable feats from normal Pokemon in their Pokedex entries. Nothing for Legendaries or Mythical though. I assume some of these have already been calculated, but quote every entry I found. I'll bold the ones I think are most notable.

Pokemon: Leaf Green[PGM] Dugtrio causes huge Earthquakes from over 60 miles underground

Pokemon: Let's Go Pikachu & Eevee[PGM] Machamp can move mountains with a single arm

Pokemon: Fire Red & Leaf Green[PGM] Rhyhorn can shatter skyscrapers

Pokemon: Sun[PGM] Unleashes Megaton-level punches that send opponents flying clear over the horizon

Pokemon: Legends Arceus[PGM] Rhyhorn can shatter mountains

Pokemon: Fire Red & Leaf Green[PGM] Dragonite can fly around the globe in 16 hours

Pokemon: Let's Go Pikahu & Eevee[PGM] Pidgeot can fly at Mach 2

Pokemon: Various games[PGM] Gyarados is implied to completely incinerate cities and mountains with their hyper beam in their fits of rage (This isn't a 1:1 quote because it's a general assessment based on all the Pokedex entries that note this across games)

Pokemon: Shield[PGM] Cleffa is believed to have arrived on Earth via meteor

Pokemon: Leaf Green[PGM] Pupitar possesses the strength to topple a mountain

Pokemon: Various Games[PGM] Tyranitar's terrifying strength is great enough to crumble mountains and change landscapes with a single hand, destroy mountains and bury rivers, causing maps to be frequently updated to account for the change of the landscape, and their mere footsteps causes earthquakes that fell massive mountains and permanently changes the terrain (Same thing as Gyarados)

Pokemon: Alpha Sapphire[PGM] Gardevoir's full power can distort dimension and form a small black hole

Pokemon: Omega Ruby[PGM] Exploud's bellows trigger Earthquakes

Pokemon: Sapphire[PGM] Whiscash creates massive earthquakes within a 3 mile radius of itself

Pokemon: Heart Gold/Soul Silver[PGM] Rhyperior can tank volcanic eruptions

Pokemon: Sword[PGM] Seismitoad generates earthquake-like tremors

Pokemon: Alpha Sapphire[PGM] Gigalith can compress enough energy to blow away a mountain

Pokemon: Shield[PGM] Sawk wields the power to cleave the ocean in two

Pokemon: Y & Alpha Sapphire[PGM] Espurr can emit an explosion of psychic energy that reaches out to 300 feet away from them

Pokemon: Shield[PGM] Gigantamax Drednaw is believed to have eaten a mountain

Pokemon: Sword[PGM] Gigantamax Corviknight can whip up winds more forceful than any hurricane could ever hope to muster (Might be worth noting? Not sure..)

Pokemon: Sword & Shield[PGM] Gigantamax Sandaconda whips over one million tons around him, being capable of pulverizing skyscrapers with ease

Pokemon: Sword[PGM] Gigantamax Grimmsnarl can bore huge holes in Galar's terrain

Pokemon: Sword[PGM] Gigantamax Copperajah packs so much power in their jaw, a single blast of it could level mountains and change the landscape

A single Electivire can provide enough electricity for all the buildings in a big city for a year. (Ultra Moon)

It’s uncontrollable if enraged. It flies around spouting flames and scorching fields and mountains. (Soul Silver Heart Gold)

There's more stuff in the server. So if anyone wants to join that, message me on my wall or DM, and I'll invite you if you wanna see more feats. These are just the ones I felt needed to be heard in case any of them weren't yet calculated. If this message just clogs things, feel free to delete it tho.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Only one of these two is true

Giratina in Legends Arceus is definitely treated as stronger than Dialga and Palkia tho

 

[CloverDragon03]

Atm I don't think Pokemon with evolution lines are the concern. The primary concern is legendary scaling

 

[CloverDragon03]

Giratina is Legends Arceus is definitely treated as stronger than Dialga and Palkia tho

Not really, no... Just asserting this doesn't help. And the three are supported by lore as being equals due to all three being the ones that formed the cosmology

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Not really, no... Just asserting this doesn't help. And the three are supported by lore as being equals due to all three being the ones that formed the cosmology

Volo believed that he could beat the Player when they had access to Primal Dialga and Palkia, and after losing still thought that Giratina could take them down
Giratina>Volo>Palkia and Dialga

 

[LaserPrecision]

Atm I don't think Pokemon with evolution lines are the concern. The primary concern is legendary scaling

Ah, I see. Any Legendaries in specific? Or all of them? And are Mythicals included in the talk of Legendaries? My friend did most of the scan gathering in terms of Legendaries, but I looked a little myself as well.

 

[Lou_change]

I had to prove the mew duo scaled to each other, every other group of box legendaries at least fight each or do something to prove comparable to each other except the paradox duo who I would argue also don't get to scale to each other

 

[LaserPrecision]

I had to prove the mew duo scaled to each other, every other group of box legendaries at least fight each or do something to prove comparable to each other except the paradox duo who I would argue also don't get to scale to each other

Ah, good luck with that. Without the movie, that gets a bit tough.

 

[Lou_change]

Ah, good luck with that. Without the movie, that gets a bit tough.

I assume this should work

If we have this precedent of the two box-art legends being comparable to each other, why would we suddenly break it based on nothing provable? Occam's Razor, while not a word of law or anything, would even support this

We are talking about the pair that existed before the precedent.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Volo believed that he could beat the Player when they had access to Primal Dialga and Palkia, and after losing still thought that Giratina could take them down
Giratina>Volo>Palkia and Dialga

And he was wrong

 

[CloverDragon03]

We are talking about the pair that existed before the precedent.

I don't see how that matters. If every other legendary pair is comparable and we have nothing that remotely indicates otherwise here, why should we go with the scaling viewpoint that requires jumping through more hoops

 

[Lou_change]

I don't see how that matters. If every other legendary pair is comparable and we have nothing that remotely indicates otherwise here, why should we go with the scaling viewpoint that requires jumping through more hoops

Being a pair of legendaries isn't the reason for being comparable them, it's because they do something that proves they're comparable. Luiga has feats to prove how strong they are and lives underwater so they don't cause mass destruction, while Ho-oh doesn't. We need a reason beyond it feels right.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Being a pair of legendaries isn't the reason for being comparable them, it's because they do something that proves they're comparable. Luiga has feats to prove how strong they are and lives underwater so they don't cause mass destruction, while Ho-oh doesn't. We need a reason beyond it feels right.

That doesn't answer my question. There's a clear precedent set, so why ignore it?

 

[Lou_change]

That doesn't answer my question. There's a clear precedent set, so why ignore it?

1. It literally is not a precedent it wasn't until gen 3 any legendary is directly compared to another.
2. There is further context being ignored, the other groups are shown to be comparable.
3. Lugia is treated as far more dangerous than Ho-oh as the reason for it living in the ocean is because the destruction it would cause for example the OR/AS dex entry: Lugia's wings pack devastating power — a light fluttering of its wings can blow apart regular houses. As a result, this Pokémon chooses to live out of sight deep under the sea. Ho-oh having never fought Lugia and never doing something similar shouldn't scale just because.

 

[LordTracer]

Ain’t no way we’re trying to say Ho-Oh doesn’t scale to Lugia now.

They’re counterparts, they’re effectively interchangeable in the Johto games’ narrative, and there is a precedent for legendary counterparts being comparable to each other (i.e. Groudon and Kyogre, Zekrom and Reshiram, Xerneas and Yveltal, etc).

They’re comparable. There’s no good reason to say otherwise.

 

[CloverDragon03]

1. It literally is not a precedent it wasn't until gen 3 any legendary is directly compared to another.
2. There is further context being ignored, the other groups are shown to be comparable.
3. Lugia is treated as far more dangerous than Ho-oh as the reason for it living in the ocean is because the destruction it would cause for example the OR/AS dex entry: Lugia's wings pack devastating power — a light fluttering of its wings can blow apart regular houses. As a result, this Pokémon chooses to live out of sight deep under the sea. Ho-oh having never fought Lugia and never doing something similar shouldn't scale just because.

1. Precedent is precedent, whether or not it comes later. Hell that precedent still existed after the Gen 2 remakes
2. And they establish said precedent.
3. Just because Ho-Oh's focus on its Dex entries is different, doesn't mean it's weaker. Maybe Lugia is more of an immediate danger, but Ho-Oh is never treated as outright weaker

 

[Lou_change]

Ain’t no way we’re trying to say Ho-Oh doesn’t scale to Lugia now.

They’re counterparts, they’re effectively interchangeable in the Johto games’ narrative, and there is a precedent for legendary counterparts being comparable to each other (i.e. Groudon and Kyogre, Zekrom and Reshiram, Xerneas and Yveltal, etc).

They’re comparable. There’s no good reason to say otherwise.

Are you aware their parts in the narrative? I'll show you real quick.
"<player>, thank you! Your courageous actions have saved Pokémon nationwide. I know it's not much, but please take this.""There used to be a tower right here in Goldenrod City. But it was old and creaky. So we replaced it with our Radio Tower.""During the teardown, we found that at the top. I heard that giant Pokémon used to fly over Goldenrod in the past. Maybe that fell off a Pokémon. Maybe like the one that appears at Tin Tower in Ecruteak CityG/Whirl Islands near CianwoodS. OK, I better go to my office." The Radio Director.

1. Precedent is precedent, whether or not it comes later. Hell that precedent still existed after the Gen 2 remakes
2. And they establish said precedent.
3. Just because Ho-Oh's focus on its Dex entries is different, doesn't mean it's weaker. Maybe Lugia is more of an immediate danger, but Ho-Oh is never treated as outright weaker

1. Precedent
2. How so? If that is the case then it should be easy to prove.
3. I mean one is treated as incredibly destructive and the other doesn't have any feats without scaling. So there is a notable difference in portrayal.

Anyway you fail the test, there was a easy answer they aren't version exclusives

 

[Hypertornado099]

when the teleporting device was destroyed the scientists thought they were screwed despite still having the rocket so I say the meteor at least up scales and would destroy the world even after an attempt to nuke it with the rocket. Anyway I am pretty sure it could be assumed comparable to rayquaza given it needed to mega evolve to stop it.

How does this mean it would destroy the world though?

 

[Lou_change]

I don’t believe I said it destroyed the world, I suggested up scaling from the ultimate weapon.

 

[BB7778]

I don’t believe I said it destroyed the world, I suggested up scaling from the ultimate weapon.

well but it was not said definitive weapon would only eliminate life but not the planet and even that was questionable and at that point lyson was losing his mind and we know in the past it was used and the damage weapon was not even that extensive

 

[y3p_owo]

Bump

 

[Emerald]

Are we using the Naruto forum calc for the Ultimate Weapon? Cause if so, we should recalc it cause it uses an outdated method to get the mass of clouds

 

[CloverDragon03]

I can probably take a look at it and see if I can pump out a new calc

 

[y3p_owo]

bump

 

[y3p_owo]

bump

 

[y3p_owo]

bump

 

[y3p_owo]

bump

 

[y3p_owo]

bump