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Goku and Vegeta vs Frieza
- Thread starter Mickey1940
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XSOULOFCINDERX
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Dude Frieza went from being weaker than the Androids to surpassing the powers of Majin Buu and supressed Beerus in a matter of 4 months of not even extremely intense training, does Frieza really need that much time to improve?
Right? Frieza is an absolute monster in terms of Potential.
Right? Frieza is an absolute monster in terms of Potential.
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^ For all we know, the ToP could have been 1 or 2 days before the Broly movie. We don't really have a timeframe to figure out Frieza's growth properly. His power gain in 4 months is still beyond ridiculous, even for DB standards. Again, Frieza going from < Namek SS Goku to > SSB Goku is due to plot.
Until we actually see Post ToP Frieza in a fight there is no way to gauge his current power. The only evidence we have is him fighting Broly for an hour which was plot dependant and an outlier.
Until we actually see Post ToP Frieza in a fight there is no way to gauge his current power. The only evidence we have is him fighting Broly for an hour which was plot dependant and an outlier.
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- Thread starter
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It wasn't an outlier Did you even read anything above?
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Novel treated as canon. Novel outlines how Frieza faired against Broly, and it isn't an 'outlier' unless you specify what Frieza should be capable of directly before or after that fight.WarriorofMite said:
Bra's hair has grown out and been styled, which in-itself implies at least a few days have passed. And, honestly, Frieza did grow stronger in the ToP. I don't know why people keep thinking he didn't.
For starters, he was equal to SSB Goku before the ToP yet SSB Goku couldn't even tag Light Bullet Dyspo. Base Frieza, who scales to SSG Goku, later managed to figure out Dyspo's fighting style and even tag Light Bullet Dyspo (a feat that even Hit struggled badly to achieve) and then completely blitzed him in Golden.
Later, Frieza sneak attacks Jiren (something not even Hit could do) and tanks multiple attacks by Jiren, this is just a couple of minutes after nearly dying against Toppo. Did Jiren hold back? Maybe, but then later an exhausted Frieza fought an exhausted Post-LB Jiren on-par, with 17 (who matched SSB Goku) referring to them both as remarkable.
Even in the final episode, Goku chose Frieza as his backup over 17, and Jiren was even stated to have grown much stronger by coming to terms with himself. If Jiren was anywhere near Pre-ToP SSB Goku, 17 could have defeated him alone. Meaning Jiren must have been significantly stronger, then grew even stronger just for Base Goku and Base Frieza to settle the fight.
Is the entire Black arc an outlier? No? Then why is Base Frieza scaling above Pre-ToP SSB Goku an outlier, when Frieza grows way stronger in short periods of time?
How did Frieza grow so strong, anyways? He tortured Tagoma for four months. What did Frieza do in Hell? He tortured Goku in mental simulations. What did he do in the ToP? Oh, right he tortured people the entire tournament. He was literally training the entire time.
So, if Frieza can grow SO strong against a Dodoria-level Tagoma in four months of torture, why can't he grow much stronger by torturing the strongest beings in the universe? PIS? Nonsense.
So given the simple fact that Frieza grew much stronger in the ToP, and had days, if not weeks, to train after the ToP, there is no reason to consider it an outlier.
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What I'm also saying is to take Goku and Vegeta's gains in to account as well. We saw both of them grow in the ToP by a massive margin as well. So it's not like Frieza was the only one getting stronger. So if Frieza could win this would imply that not only did he get stronger to ecplise the gap that he would have had at the end of the ToP but also afterwards. Do you think Frieza was stronger than Goku SSBKKx20 and SSBE Vegeta at the end of the ToP? Vegeta grew massively in base power by an unquantified amount, then unlocked SSBE which was a 20x multiplier to his overall power, then got a rage boost while in SSBE to defeat God-Toppo, then any additioanl power afterwards before being ringed out. While Frieza got wrecked easily by the same God-Toppo who says he was holding back against Frieza so as not to kill him and get DQ'ed. The ToP shows us that Goku and Vegeta's gains were better than Frieza's was during the ToP. So, there's no reason not to assume Post-ToP SSBKKx20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta are stronger than Golden Frieza by a large margin.
Comparing Frieza's 1 hour feat of getting pounded by Broly would imply Frieza was weaker but somewhere nearing SS Broly in power. As it was said Frieza's hits hurt Broly and caused him to dodge them as well. Meaning Frieza was not fodder to SS Broly. The same SS Broly who seemed to be as strong as SS Gogeta. Using this feat would put Frieza near/ on the lower end of SS Gogeta in power and I just don't see that.
This would mean that Goku and Vegeta were already stronger than him Post-ToP, plus any additional gains they got Pre-Broly. So Frieza would have to train firstly just to close the gap that was already there just to make him equal to their Post-ToP selves. Then Frieza would have to train to bridge the gap of gains they would have got for training after the ToP during the same time period, then train to bridge the gap on the fusion multiplier for Gogeta if you use his Broly feat in comparison, then he would have to train to become stronger than both of them combined, since this is a 2v1 fight. This seems like an absurd amount of training and increasing in power, even by Frieza's standards, to get a win against not one but two people of Goku and Vegeta's power.
Comparing Frieza's 1 hour feat of getting pounded by Broly would imply Frieza was weaker but somewhere nearing SS Broly in power. As it was said Frieza's hits hurt Broly and caused him to dodge them as well. Meaning Frieza was not fodder to SS Broly. The same SS Broly who seemed to be as strong as SS Gogeta. Using this feat would put Frieza near/ on the lower end of SS Gogeta in power and I just don't see that.
This would mean that Goku and Vegeta were already stronger than him Post-ToP, plus any additional gains they got Pre-Broly. So Frieza would have to train firstly just to close the gap that was already there just to make him equal to their Post-ToP selves. Then Frieza would have to train to bridge the gap of gains they would have got for training after the ToP during the same time period, then train to bridge the gap on the fusion multiplier for Gogeta if you use his Broly feat in comparison, then he would have to train to become stronger than both of them combined, since this is a 2v1 fight. This seems like an absurd amount of training and increasing in power, even by Frieza's standards, to get a win against not one but two people of Goku and Vegeta's power.
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What I'm also saying is to take Goku and Vegeta's gains in to account as well. We saw both of them grow in the ToP by a massive margin as well.
...by limit breaking, which they can't just do willy-nilly and is nowhere near Frieza's growth.
So if Frieza could win this would imply that not only did he get stronger to ecplise the gap that he would have had at the end of the ToP but also afterwards.
Which is completely reasonable for him. He grew hundreds of times stronger in Hell, by image training, and grew much stronger over the course of the Tournament of Power. If he can grow so much stronger by himself, in confinement, then he can certainly grow much stronger outside of Hell.
Do you think Frieza was stronger than Goku SSBKKx20 and SSBE Vegeta at the end of the ToP?
No, and he wouldn't even need to. He had weeks to develop afterwards.
Vegeta grew massively in base power by an unquantified amount, then unlocked SSBE which was a 20x multiplier to his overall power, then got a rage boost while in SSBE to defeat God-Toppo, then any additioanl power afterwards before being ringed out.
Jiren wasn't trying as hard as he did against Goku, and the gap between UIS Goku and Pre-UIS2 SSB Goku is around 40x. Vegeta grew less than 40x by adapting to Jiren.
Zenkais rely on adapting to stronger opponents and battle damage, Vegeta can't spam that growth without stronger opponents to ellicit it.
While Frieza got wrecked easily by the same God-Toppo who says he was holding back against Frieza so as not to kill him and get DQ'ed.
What's even the point of saying this? Vegeta had to break his limits by triggering a form at least 20x his usual power and then needed to use Final Explosion just to knock Toppo out of bounds. Toppo couldn't DQ Frieza with a pointblank Hakai.
The ToP shows us that Goku and Vegeta's gains were better than Frieza's was during the ToP.
Because of limit-breaking via Ultra Instinct and SSBE. Again, they can't just spam that. They would have no more limit breaks beyond what they showed in the ToP.
So, there's no reason not to assume Post-ToP SSBKKx20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta are stronger than Golden Frieza by a large margin.
Except for the part where SS Broly matches SS Gogeta, when Base Gogeta is stronger than Post-ToP SSB Goku? If Frieza can endure that for over an hour, it's absurd to claim X20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta are stronger.
The same SS Broly who seemed to be as strong as SS Gogeta. Using this feat would put Frieza near/ on the lower end of SS Gogeta in power and I just don't see that.
And that would be because of yourself, rather than the story.
Frieza grew infinitely stronger in four months of torturing Tagoma. Let's do some math here:
How fast is Goku's growth, relatively speaking? Well, in four years he could increase his power by about 5,000x. With simple math, that seems to equate to 1.0058x stronger per day. That means Goku actively training is, at most, 1/6th of Frieza's image training.
So Frieza thinking is 6x faster than Goku at developing his power level.
How much stronger did Goku become in the ToP? Well, the only figure is that Post-UIS2 Goku Blue surpassed UIS, and UIS is considered 'at least' 40x stronger than Blue. Goku probably grew stronger, but we don't know how much.
Frieza went from matching SSB Goku, to handling LB Dyspo in Base, when SSB Goku couldn't even tag Dyspo. If we take that literally, and consider that Base Frieza is superior to A17, that means Frieza grew at least dozens of times stronger in the ToP.
In 14 days, Goku would grow about 1.084x stronger. If Frieza simply image trained, he would grow 1.4x stronger in that same span of time.
So, considering End-ToP Base Frieza is comparable to Pre-ToP SSB Goku in feats and scaling...and Post-UIS2 SSB Goku is at least 40x stronger, that puts Post-UIS2 SSG Goku and End-ToP Base Frieza around the same level, with Golden Frieza being capable of one-shotting Goku.
In other words, End-ToP Golden Frieza would be at least 2x stronger than Post-UIS2 SSB Goku. This is the only accepted figure, so we will go based on that.
Frieza would grow at least 1.4x stronger in that span of time, by image training. Goku would grow 1.084x stronger, in other words Frieza would be 2.8x stronger than Post-UIS2 Goku and Post-ToP Goku wouldn't even be 1.1x stronger.
In Conclusion
The ABSOLUTE MINIMUM scaling for Post-ToP Frieza, would make him over 2.8x stronger than Post-ToP SSB Goku. This is ASSUMING he only image trains, if he actively trains like he did against Tagoma his gains will explode.
So, overall, It is reasonable for Post-ToP Frieza to be stronger than SSBKKX20 Post-ToP Goku. Hell, Post-ToP Goku would need to use SSBKKX3 just to keep up with Frieza, if Frieza only image trained for two weeks.
then he would have to train to become stronger than both of them combined, since this is a 2v1 fight.
Nope. This would only be the case if they combine attacks, and their only known combination attacks are Galick Kamehameha and Final Kamehameha. Even then, 50% Frieza could cancel out a X20 Super Kamehameha with one-hand and tanked a Spirit Bomb to the face. It's unlikely for those moves to take out Frieza in one go, and Frieza has absurd stamina.
Goku is going to constantly grow weaker as he fights and Vegeta's ace techniques (Final Flash, Final Explosion) are extremely energy intensive. If they expend energy on a Final Kamehameha, Frieza should be able to survive and they will both be heavily weakened.
his seems like an absurd amount of training and increasing in power, even by Frieza's standards, to get a win against not one but two people of Goku and Vegeta's power.
The gap between Post-UIS2 Goku and Pre-ToP Goku is only around 40x. The gap between Post-UIS2 SSBX20 and Pre-ToP SSB Goku is 800x. Frieza grew over 2,500x (3x greater the gap) in a year of image training.
Based on the scaling shown in the ToP, End-ToP Frieza would actually scale around Post-UIS2 Goku. Meaning Frieza would only need to grow a few dozen times stronger in the span of a few weeks, which based on what I have shown in this huge post, is easily plausible.
At this point, you would just be disagreeing with the facts I have laid down for personal bias.
...by limit breaking, which they can't just do willy-nilly and is nowhere near Frieza's growth.
So if Frieza could win this would imply that not only did he get stronger to ecplise the gap that he would have had at the end of the ToP but also afterwards.
Which is completely reasonable for him. He grew hundreds of times stronger in Hell, by image training, and grew much stronger over the course of the Tournament of Power. If he can grow so much stronger by himself, in confinement, then he can certainly grow much stronger outside of Hell.
Do you think Frieza was stronger than Goku SSBKKx20 and SSBE Vegeta at the end of the ToP?
No, and he wouldn't even need to. He had weeks to develop afterwards.
Vegeta grew massively in base power by an unquantified amount, then unlocked SSBE which was a 20x multiplier to his overall power, then got a rage boost while in SSBE to defeat God-Toppo, then any additioanl power afterwards before being ringed out.
Jiren wasn't trying as hard as he did against Goku, and the gap between UIS Goku and Pre-UIS2 SSB Goku is around 40x. Vegeta grew less than 40x by adapting to Jiren.
Zenkais rely on adapting to stronger opponents and battle damage, Vegeta can't spam that growth without stronger opponents to ellicit it.
While Frieza got wrecked easily by the same God-Toppo who says he was holding back against Frieza so as not to kill him and get DQ'ed.
What's even the point of saying this? Vegeta had to break his limits by triggering a form at least 20x his usual power and then needed to use Final Explosion just to knock Toppo out of bounds. Toppo couldn't DQ Frieza with a pointblank Hakai.
The ToP shows us that Goku and Vegeta's gains were better than Frieza's was during the ToP.
Because of limit-breaking via Ultra Instinct and SSBE. Again, they can't just spam that. They would have no more limit breaks beyond what they showed in the ToP.
So, there's no reason not to assume Post-ToP SSBKKx20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta are stronger than Golden Frieza by a large margin.
Except for the part where SS Broly matches SS Gogeta, when Base Gogeta is stronger than Post-ToP SSB Goku? If Frieza can endure that for over an hour, it's absurd to claim X20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta are stronger.
The same SS Broly who seemed to be as strong as SS Gogeta. Using this feat would put Frieza near/ on the lower end of SS Gogeta in power and I just don't see that.
And that would be because of yourself, rather than the story.
Frieza grew infinitely stronger in four months of torturing Tagoma. Let's do some math here:
- Golden Frieza could oneshot SSB Goku, so we'll assume he was 2x SSB Goku
- Goku and Vegeta trained for 3 years in the Time Chamber, assume they grew 2x stronger
- SSB Vegeta (who is at least 2x RoF SSB) lost against Base Black, then overwhelmed SS Rose Black...who would be 50x stronger, due to SS Rose being his God Base going Super Saiyan.
- Later, SSB Goku matched Hit
- By the time of the ToP, SSG Goku is comparable to Hit before any Limit Breaks)
How fast is Goku's growth, relatively speaking? Well, in four years he could increase his power by about 5,000x. With simple math, that seems to equate to 1.0058x stronger per day. That means Goku actively training is, at most, 1/6th of Frieza's image training.
So Frieza thinking is 6x faster than Goku at developing his power level.
How much stronger did Goku become in the ToP? Well, the only figure is that Post-UIS2 Goku Blue surpassed UIS, and UIS is considered 'at least' 40x stronger than Blue. Goku probably grew stronger, but we don't know how much.
Frieza went from matching SSB Goku, to handling LB Dyspo in Base, when SSB Goku couldn't even tag Dyspo. If we take that literally, and consider that Base Frieza is superior to A17, that means Frieza grew at least dozens of times stronger in the ToP.
In 14 days, Goku would grow about 1.084x stronger. If Frieza simply image trained, he would grow 1.4x stronger in that same span of time.
So, considering End-ToP Base Frieza is comparable to Pre-ToP SSB Goku in feats and scaling...and Post-UIS2 SSB Goku is at least 40x stronger, that puts Post-UIS2 SSG Goku and End-ToP Base Frieza around the same level, with Golden Frieza being capable of one-shotting Goku.
In other words, End-ToP Golden Frieza would be at least 2x stronger than Post-UIS2 SSB Goku. This is the only accepted figure, so we will go based on that.
Frieza would grow at least 1.4x stronger in that span of time, by image training. Goku would grow 1.084x stronger, in other words Frieza would be 2.8x stronger than Post-UIS2 Goku and Post-ToP Goku wouldn't even be 1.1x stronger.
In Conclusion
The ABSOLUTE MINIMUM scaling for Post-ToP Frieza, would make him over 2.8x stronger than Post-ToP SSB Goku. This is ASSUMING he only image trains, if he actively trains like he did against Tagoma his gains will explode.
So, overall, It is reasonable for Post-ToP Frieza to be stronger than SSBKKX20 Post-ToP Goku. Hell, Post-ToP Goku would need to use SSBKKX3 just to keep up with Frieza, if Frieza only image trained for two weeks.
then he would have to train to become stronger than both of them combined, since this is a 2v1 fight.
Nope. This would only be the case if they combine attacks, and their only known combination attacks are Galick Kamehameha and Final Kamehameha. Even then, 50% Frieza could cancel out a X20 Super Kamehameha with one-hand and tanked a Spirit Bomb to the face. It's unlikely for those moves to take out Frieza in one go, and Frieza has absurd stamina.
Goku is going to constantly grow weaker as he fights and Vegeta's ace techniques (Final Flash, Final Explosion) are extremely energy intensive. If they expend energy on a Final Kamehameha, Frieza should be able to survive and they will both be heavily weakened.
his seems like an absurd amount of training and increasing in power, even by Frieza's standards, to get a win against not one but two people of Goku and Vegeta's power.
The gap between Post-UIS2 Goku and Pre-ToP Goku is only around 40x. The gap between Post-UIS2 SSBX20 and Pre-ToP SSB Goku is 800x. Frieza grew over 2,500x (3x greater the gap) in a year of image training.
Based on the scaling shown in the ToP, End-ToP Frieza would actually scale around Post-UIS2 Goku. Meaning Frieza would only need to grow a few dozen times stronger in the span of a few weeks, which based on what I have shown in this huge post, is easily plausible.
At this point, you would just be disagreeing with the facts I have laid down for personal bias.
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tl;dr
- Frieza's image training is 6x more effective than Goku actively training.
- Frieza scaled to Post-UIS2 Goku by the end of the ToP
- Frieza would grow 3x stronger in two weeks by image training, whereas Goku would grow 1.085x by actively training.
- If Post-ToP Frieza image trained for two weeks, he would beat SSBKKX4 Post-ToP Goku and surpass X3 in power
- Actively training should be far more effective than image training, meaning Frieza developing to his level in DBS Broly is plausible
XSOULOFCINDERX
They/Them- 19,109
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What I'm also saying is to take Goku and Vegeta's gains in to account as well. We saw both of them grow in the ToP by a massive margin as well.
...by limit breaking, which they can't just do willy-nilly and is nowhere near Frieza's growth.
So if Frieza could win this would imply that not only did he get stronger to ecplise the gap that he would have had at the end of the ToP but also afterwards.
Which is completely reasonable for him. He grew hundreds of times stronger in Hell, by image training, and grew much stronger over the course of the Tournament of Power. If he can grow so much stronger by himself, in confinement, then he can certainly grow much stronger outside of Hell.
Do you think Frieza was stronger than Goku SSBKKx20 and SSBE Vegeta at the end of the ToP?
No, and he wouldn't even need to. He had weeks to develop afterwards.
Vegeta grew massively in base power by an unquantified amount, then unlocked SSBE which was a 20x multiplier to his overall power, then got a rage boost while in SSBE to defeat God-Toppo, then any additioanl power afterwards before being ringed out.
Jiren wasn't trying as hard as he did against Goku, and the gap between UIS Goku and Pre-UIS2 SSB Goku is around 40x. Vegeta grew less than 40x by adapting to Jiren.
Zenkais rely on adapting to stronger opponents and battle damage, Vegeta can't spam that growth without stronger opponents to ellicit it.
While Frieza got wrecked easily by the same God-Toppo who says he was holding back against Frieza so as not to kill him and get DQ'ed.
What's even the point of saying this? Vegeta had to break his limits by triggering a form at least 20x his usual power and then needed to use Final Explosion just to knock Toppo out of bounds. Toppo couldn't DQ Frieza with a pointblank Hakai.
The ToP shows us that Goku and Vegeta's gains were better than Frieza's was during the ToP.
Because of limit-breaking via Ultra Instinct and SSBE. Again, they can't just spam that. They would have no more limit breaks beyond what they showed in the ToP.
So, there's no reason not to assume Post-ToP SSBKKx20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta are stronger than Golden Frieza by a large margin.
Except for the part where SS Broly matches SS Gogeta, when Base Gogeta is stronger than Post-ToP SSB Goku? If Frieza can endure that for over an hour, it's absurd to claim X20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta are stronger.
The same SS Broly who seemed to be as strong as SS Gogeta. Using this feat would put Frieza near/ on the lower end of SS Gogeta in power and I just don't see that.
And that would be because of yourself, rather than the story.
Frieza grew infinitely stronger in four months of torturing Tagoma. Let's do some math here:
How fast is Goku's growth, relatively speaking? Well, in four years he could increase his power by about 5,000x. With simple math, that seems to equate to 1.0058x stronger per day. That means Goku actively training is, at most, 1/6th of Frieza's image training.
So Frieza thinking is 6x faster than Goku at developing his power level.
How much stronger did Goku become in the ToP? Well, the only figure is that Post-UIS2 Goku Blue surpassed UIS, and UIS is considered 'at least' 40x stronger than Blue. Goku probably grew stronger, but we don't know how much.
Frieza went from matching SSB Goku, to handling LB Dyspo in Base, when SSB Goku couldn't even tag Dyspo. If we take that literally, and consider that Base Frieza is superior to A17, that means Frieza grew at least dozens of times stronger in the ToP.
In 14 days, Goku would grow about 1.084x stronger. If Frieza simply image trained, he would grow 1.4x stronger in that same span of time.
So, considering End-ToP Base Frieza is comparable to Pre-ToP SSB Goku in feats and scaling...and Post-UIS2 SSB Goku is at least 40x stronger, that puts Post-UIS2 SSG Goku and End-ToP Base Frieza around the same level, with Golden Frieza being capable of one-shotting Goku.
In other words, End-ToP Golden Frieza would be at least 2x stronger than Post-UIS2 SSB Goku. This is the only accepted figure, so we will go based on that.
Frieza would grow at least 1.4x stronger in that span of time, by image training. Goku would grow 1.084x stronger, in other words Frieza would be 2.8x stronger than Post-UIS2 Goku and Post-ToP Goku wouldn't even be 1.1x stronger.
In Conclusion
The ABSOLUTE MINIMUM scaling for Post-ToP Frieza, would make him over 2.8x stronger than Post-ToP SSB Goku. This is ASSUMING he only image trains, if he actively trains like he did against Tagoma his gains will explode.
So, overall, It is reasonable for Post-ToP Frieza to be stronger than SSBKKX20 Post-ToP Goku. Hell, Post-ToP Goku would need to use SSBKKX3 just to keep up with Frieza, if Frieza only image trained for two weeks.
then he would have to train to become stronger than both of them combined, since this is a 2v1 fight.
Nope. This would only be the case if they combine attacks, and their only known combination attacks are Galick Kamehameha and Final Kamehameha. Even then, 50% Frieza could cancel out a X20 Super Kamehameha with one-hand and tanked a Spirit Bomb to the face. It's unlikely for those moves to take out Frieza in one go, and Frieza has absurd stamina.
Goku is going to constantly grow weaker as he fights and Vegeta's ace techniques (Final Flash, Final Explosion) are extremely energy intensive. If they expend energy on a Final Kamehameha, Frieza should be able to survive and they will both be heavily weakened.
his seems like an absurd amount of training and increasing in power, even by Frieza's standards, to get a win against not one but two people of Goku and Vegeta's power.
The gap between Post-UIS2 Goku and Pre-ToP Goku is only around 40x. The gap between Post-UIS2 SSBX20 and Pre-ToP SSB Goku is 800x. Frieza grew over 2,500x (3x greater the gap) in a year of image training.
Based on the scaling shown in the ToP, End-ToP Frieza would actually scale around Post-UIS2 Goku. Meaning Frieza would only need to grow a few dozen times stronger in the span of a few weeks, which based on what I have shown in this huge post, is easily plausible.
At this point, you would just be disagreeing with the facts I have laid down for personal bias.
^THIS!
...by limit breaking, which they can't just do willy-nilly and is nowhere near Frieza's growth.
So if Frieza could win this would imply that not only did he get stronger to ecplise the gap that he would have had at the end of the ToP but also afterwards.
Which is completely reasonable for him. He grew hundreds of times stronger in Hell, by image training, and grew much stronger over the course of the Tournament of Power. If he can grow so much stronger by himself, in confinement, then he can certainly grow much stronger outside of Hell.
Do you think Frieza was stronger than Goku SSBKKx20 and SSBE Vegeta at the end of the ToP?
No, and he wouldn't even need to. He had weeks to develop afterwards.
Vegeta grew massively in base power by an unquantified amount, then unlocked SSBE which was a 20x multiplier to his overall power, then got a rage boost while in SSBE to defeat God-Toppo, then any additioanl power afterwards before being ringed out.
Jiren wasn't trying as hard as he did against Goku, and the gap between UIS Goku and Pre-UIS2 SSB Goku is around 40x. Vegeta grew less than 40x by adapting to Jiren.
Zenkais rely on adapting to stronger opponents and battle damage, Vegeta can't spam that growth without stronger opponents to ellicit it.
While Frieza got wrecked easily by the same God-Toppo who says he was holding back against Frieza so as not to kill him and get DQ'ed.
What's even the point of saying this? Vegeta had to break his limits by triggering a form at least 20x his usual power and then needed to use Final Explosion just to knock Toppo out of bounds. Toppo couldn't DQ Frieza with a pointblank Hakai.
The ToP shows us that Goku and Vegeta's gains were better than Frieza's was during the ToP.
Because of limit-breaking via Ultra Instinct and SSBE. Again, they can't just spam that. They would have no more limit breaks beyond what they showed in the ToP.
So, there's no reason not to assume Post-ToP SSBKKx20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta are stronger than Golden Frieza by a large margin.
Except for the part where SS Broly matches SS Gogeta, when Base Gogeta is stronger than Post-ToP SSB Goku? If Frieza can endure that for over an hour, it's absurd to claim X20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta are stronger.
The same SS Broly who seemed to be as strong as SS Gogeta. Using this feat would put Frieza near/ on the lower end of SS Gogeta in power and I just don't see that.
And that would be because of yourself, rather than the story.
Frieza grew infinitely stronger in four months of torturing Tagoma. Let's do some math here:
- Golden Frieza could oneshot SSB Goku, so we'll assume he was 2x SSB Goku
- Goku and Vegeta trained for 3 years in the Time Chamber, assume they grew 2x stronger
- SSB Vegeta (who is at least 2x RoF SSB) lost against Base Black, then overwhelmed SS Rose Black...who would be 50x stronger, due to SS Rose being his God Base going Super Saiyan.
- Later, SSB Goku matched Hit
- By the time of the ToP, SSG Goku is comparable to Hit before any Limit Breaks)
How fast is Goku's growth, relatively speaking? Well, in four years he could increase his power by about 5,000x. With simple math, that seems to equate to 1.0058x stronger per day. That means Goku actively training is, at most, 1/6th of Frieza's image training.
So Frieza thinking is 6x faster than Goku at developing his power level.
How much stronger did Goku become in the ToP? Well, the only figure is that Post-UIS2 Goku Blue surpassed UIS, and UIS is considered 'at least' 40x stronger than Blue. Goku probably grew stronger, but we don't know how much.
Frieza went from matching SSB Goku, to handling LB Dyspo in Base, when SSB Goku couldn't even tag Dyspo. If we take that literally, and consider that Base Frieza is superior to A17, that means Frieza grew at least dozens of times stronger in the ToP.
In 14 days, Goku would grow about 1.084x stronger. If Frieza simply image trained, he would grow 1.4x stronger in that same span of time.
So, considering End-ToP Base Frieza is comparable to Pre-ToP SSB Goku in feats and scaling...and Post-UIS2 SSB Goku is at least 40x stronger, that puts Post-UIS2 SSG Goku and End-ToP Base Frieza around the same level, with Golden Frieza being capable of one-shotting Goku.
In other words, End-ToP Golden Frieza would be at least 2x stronger than Post-UIS2 SSB Goku. This is the only accepted figure, so we will go based on that.
Frieza would grow at least 1.4x stronger in that span of time, by image training. Goku would grow 1.084x stronger, in other words Frieza would be 2.8x stronger than Post-UIS2 Goku and Post-ToP Goku wouldn't even be 1.1x stronger.
In Conclusion
The ABSOLUTE MINIMUM scaling for Post-ToP Frieza, would make him over 2.8x stronger than Post-ToP SSB Goku. This is ASSUMING he only image trains, if he actively trains like he did against Tagoma his gains will explode.
So, overall, It is reasonable for Post-ToP Frieza to be stronger than SSBKKX20 Post-ToP Goku. Hell, Post-ToP Goku would need to use SSBKKX3 just to keep up with Frieza, if Frieza only image trained for two weeks.
then he would have to train to become stronger than both of them combined, since this is a 2v1 fight.
Nope. This would only be the case if they combine attacks, and their only known combination attacks are Galick Kamehameha and Final Kamehameha. Even then, 50% Frieza could cancel out a X20 Super Kamehameha with one-hand and tanked a Spirit Bomb to the face. It's unlikely for those moves to take out Frieza in one go, and Frieza has absurd stamina.
Goku is going to constantly grow weaker as he fights and Vegeta's ace techniques (Final Flash, Final Explosion) are extremely energy intensive. If they expend energy on a Final Kamehameha, Frieza should be able to survive and they will both be heavily weakened.
his seems like an absurd amount of training and increasing in power, even by Frieza's standards, to get a win against not one but two people of Goku and Vegeta's power.
The gap between Post-UIS2 Goku and Pre-ToP Goku is only around 40x. The gap between Post-UIS2 SSBX20 and Pre-ToP SSB Goku is 800x. Frieza grew over 2,500x (3x greater the gap) in a year of image training.
Based on the scaling shown in the ToP, End-ToP Frieza would actually scale around Post-UIS2 Goku. Meaning Frieza would only need to grow a few dozen times stronger in the span of a few weeks, which based on what I have shown in this huge post, is easily plausible.
At this point, you would just be disagreeing with the facts I have laid down for personal bias.
^THIS!
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My walls of text already lag threads to a crawl, after all.
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Then why didn't Frieza fight them then? He would be stronger than them both by a large margin.
In this case, SS Gogeta would be a better match here then, no?
In this case, SS Gogeta would be a better match here then, no?
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hell noWarriorofMite said:
Base Gogeta was already doing pretty well against SSJ Ikari Broly, being able to casually dodge and slap aside his energy blasts.
SSJ Gogeta would be overkill on many, many levels
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I say this with Cryo's Broly feat in mind. It seemed like SS Gogeta was roughly equal to SS Broly with a slight favor to Gogeta, imo. Since Frieza tanked SS Broly for an hour it stands to reason he could reasonably tank Gogeta for the same amount of time as long as Gogeta stayed SS and never transformed to a higher form. Then wait Gogeta out to defuse after the 30 minutes. Using the Broly feat Golden Frieza should be able to tank him for the 30 minutes needed for the fusion to wear off and pick them off individually. Sound reasonable then @CryoTheMayo?Mickey1940 said:
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That actually might be possible.
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again, Base Gogeta was able to casually keep up with SSJ Ikari Broly. He performed much, MUCH better against Broly than Frieza ever did
I don't know why SSJ Gogeta is scaled to Broly instead
I don't know why SSJ Gogeta is scaled to Broly instead
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I believe Frieza didn't attack them, because he doesn't think he can take both Goku and Vegeta. To add further, he had zero intent on fighting them as his motivation in the film. He only wanted the Dragon Balls and to test Broly's power.
You also have to note, Frieza probably isn't sure if Goku could willingly use Ultra Instinct yet.
Regarding SS Gogeta, Frieza probably could outlast his timer, Gogeta would likely need to go SS2 or maybe even SS3 to put Frieza down properly.
You also have to note, Frieza probably isn't sure if Goku could willingly use Ultra Instinct yet.
Regarding SS Gogeta, Frieza probably could outlast his timer, Gogeta would likely need to go SS2 or maybe even SS3 to put Frieza down properly.
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Considering how Base gogeta is at least already approaching Broly's power, and considering that he's far more skilled and has instant kill moves (Destructo Disc can hurt beings far stronger than the user), I think Base Gogeta should be enough
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Yeah, but Frieza also has his own destructo disk in the form of Death Saucer, plus he already encountered that move against Krillin on Namek so he knows how sharp it is.
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I don't think Gogeta is more skilled, honestly. Frieza knows Goku's entire fighting style and was his complete equal before the ToP. Gogeta's martial arts skill would only be an issue due to Vegeta, but Frieza has had plenty of experience fighting Vegeta on Namek, fought Vegeta on Earth and saw Vegeta fighting in the ToP, so Gogeta's skill edge shouldn't actually factor as much as you would think.
Destructo Disk also isn't going to kill Frieza, Frieza survived his own Death Slicer and the explosion of Namek after expending his energy on Goku. He'll be weakened, of course, but he can still fight in that bisected state. Gogeta would need to land a Hexa Blade to kill Frieza via that method, but Frieza has plenty of experience with Destructo Disk and would know to look out for it.
As for Base Gogeta approaching Broly, I'm not sure if that's true. Sure, he dodged some of Broly's attacks but SS Gogeta's advantage over Broly wasn't massive, considering even Stardust Fall didn't notably hamper Broly and Broly was able to form a barrier during it.
Considering the gap between SS Broly and SS Gogeta wasn't that large, I don't have any reason to think Frieza can't tank Gogeta for 30 minutes. If he can bisect him with Destructo Disk, maybe Gogeta wins but Frieza does have intel on it, knows how to use it, knows Gogeta's fighting style (Or at least his components) and can fight even whilst bisected, so there are many factors at play here for that move succeeding.
Destructo Disk also isn't going to kill Frieza, Frieza survived his own Death Slicer and the explosion of Namek after expending his energy on Goku. He'll be weakened, of course, but he can still fight in that bisected state. Gogeta would need to land a Hexa Blade to kill Frieza via that method, but Frieza has plenty of experience with Destructo Disk and would know to look out for it.
As for Base Gogeta approaching Broly, I'm not sure if that's true. Sure, he dodged some of Broly's attacks but SS Gogeta's advantage over Broly wasn't massive, considering even Stardust Fall didn't notably hamper Broly and Broly was able to form a barrier during it.
Considering the gap between SS Broly and SS Gogeta wasn't that large, I don't have any reason to think Frieza can't tank Gogeta for 30 minutes. If he can bisect him with Destructo Disk, maybe Gogeta wins but Frieza does have intel on it, knows how to use it, knows Gogeta's fighting style (Or at least his components) and can fight even whilst bisected, so there are many factors at play here for that move succeeding.
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It's kinda crazy to think that Frieza can actually beat Gogeta at all, you know? But the feats speak for themselves.
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It is amusing that Gogeta's only win condition is to use a Destructo Disk or transform. I'm honestly not even sure if SS2 Gogeta would be able to defeat Frieza in 30 minutes w/o Destructo Disk.
Hell, it's a bit inconsistent but it seems transformations lower timer based on stability. So we can say for example:
It's actually a scarily real possibility for Golden Frieza to outlast SS1, SS2 AND SS3 Gogeta. All thanks to that little feat of tanking Broly for over an hour.
So overall, if we don't consider Gogeta landing a Destructo Disk it's possible Gogeta would be forced to go Super Saiyan God, just to put Frieza down before the timer wears off.
Hell, it's a bit inconsistent but it seems transformations lower timer based on stability. So we can say for example:
- SS Gogeta lasts 30 minutes
- SS2 Gogeta lasts less than 30 minutes
- SS3 Gogeta lasts only 5 minutes (assuming same as Gotenks)
It's actually a scarily real possibility for Golden Frieza to outlast SS1, SS2 AND SS3 Gogeta. All thanks to that little feat of tanking Broly for over an hour.
So overall, if we don't consider Gogeta landing a Destructo Disk it's possible Gogeta would be forced to go Super Saiyan God, just to put Frieza down before the timer wears off.
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I meant more skilled compared to BrolyCryoTheMayo said:
Even 1 Destructo Disk is enough to weaken Frieza considerably, assuming Gogeta hits him in the right place. Landing multiple discs shouldn't be a problem due to how many Gogeta could spam and remote control
Gogeta might not be exactly on par with Broly, but he was performing a helluva lot better than a full power Golden Frieza was. He was smiling and chuckling while casually weaving between and slapping aside energy blasts from him
Gogeta has a lot of intel on Frieza as well, including his monster resilience. Thus, it's not far-fetched to assume that Gogeta might want to go for the kill almost immediately (this is due not only to his knowledge of his own fusion timer, but also Vegeta's lack of mercy and natural hatred towards Frieza).
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I meant more skilled compared to Broly
That's an iffy position to take. Wrath Broly was beating Vegeta, but Goku could outskill him until he adapted. I don't think Broly is far from Goku in skill, but the composite of Goku and Vegeta is harder to gauge skill-wise.
If Vegeta was jobbing, but Goku could keep up with skill (stated in the Novel IIRC) and Frieza completely adapted to Goku's fighting style then, yeah, I don't think the gap between Gogeta and Frieza is large, or that Broly is far behind.
Landing multiple discs shouldn't be a problem due to how many Gogeta could spam and remote control
Up to five, but he has to telekinetically manipulate them to control them Frieza has Barriers so it's possible that Frieza can block out Destructo Disk.
Frieza's Paralysis works on opponents stronger than he is, and he was mobile and fighting back against Broly over half an hour. It's possible for Frieza to paralyze Gogeta for a few seconds to stop him from controlling the disks, and for his barrier to block them.
Gogeta might not be exactly on par with Broly, but he was performing a helluva lot better than a full power Golden Frieza was. He was smiling and chuckling while casually weaving between and slapping aside energy blasts from him
This is actually unknown. When Frieza transformed, Broly was blown away by dozens of meters and the next time we see Frieza is over half an hour later, with Frieza still being mobile and fighting back against Broly.
A peak Golden Frieza should perform better than a Frieza that has fought for over half an hour, presumably.
Broly learned as he fought. Broly triggered his FPSS against SS Gogeta, and was powerful enough to force him into Blue. It's plausible that Broly was growing stronger as he fought Frieza.
Gogeta has a lot of intel on Frieza as well, including his monster resilience.
The only person to use a Destructo Disk on Frieza is Krillin and Frieza himself. Neither Goku or Vegeta have used such a tactic on him.
Frieza has done nothing but image train against Goku for over a year, Vegeta beat a near-dead RoF Frieza and Goku defeated Frieza via his strain weakness, rather than combat intel.
Given Frieza has grown far more skilled since RoF, and that Frieza has actively been training more for Goku than Goku or Vegeta have trained for him, it's reasonable to claim Frieza has the intel edge.
Remember: Relative to Goku and Vegeta, they fought Frieza over 4 years ago and then they fought Frieza over 15 years before that. Frieza only fought Goku and Vegeta a year ago and has done nothing but image train against Goku.
Thus, it's not far-fetched to assume that Gogeta might want to go for the kill almost immediately (this is due not only to his knowledge of his own fusion timer, but also Vegeta's lack of mercy and natural hatred towards Frieza).
If Gogeta wanted to kill Frieza, he would have done so at the end of the film. Goku doesn't want to kill Frieza, and Gogeta doesn't kill Frieza despite Vegeta's hatred.
There is no reason to think Hexa Blade is Gogeta's first instinct, or is anywhere near his first action.
Anyways, if we factor Hexa Blade then the argument of Frieza vs SS Gogeta is harder, but if we ignore Hexa Blade I think it's possible for Frieza to outlast SS, SS2 and SS3 Gogeta.
That's an iffy position to take. Wrath Broly was beating Vegeta, but Goku could outskill him until he adapted. I don't think Broly is far from Goku in skill, but the composite of Goku and Vegeta is harder to gauge skill-wise.
If Vegeta was jobbing, but Goku could keep up with skill (stated in the Novel IIRC) and Frieza completely adapted to Goku's fighting style then, yeah, I don't think the gap between Gogeta and Frieza is large, or that Broly is far behind.
Landing multiple discs shouldn't be a problem due to how many Gogeta could spam and remote control
Up to five, but he has to telekinetically manipulate them to control them Frieza has Barriers so it's possible that Frieza can block out Destructo Disk.
Frieza's Paralysis works on opponents stronger than he is, and he was mobile and fighting back against Broly over half an hour. It's possible for Frieza to paralyze Gogeta for a few seconds to stop him from controlling the disks, and for his barrier to block them.
Gogeta might not be exactly on par with Broly, but he was performing a helluva lot better than a full power Golden Frieza was. He was smiling and chuckling while casually weaving between and slapping aside energy blasts from him
This is actually unknown. When Frieza transformed, Broly was blown away by dozens of meters and the next time we see Frieza is over half an hour later, with Frieza still being mobile and fighting back against Broly.
A peak Golden Frieza should perform better than a Frieza that has fought for over half an hour, presumably.
Broly learned as he fought. Broly triggered his FPSS against SS Gogeta, and was powerful enough to force him into Blue. It's plausible that Broly was growing stronger as he fought Frieza.
Gogeta has a lot of intel on Frieza as well, including his monster resilience.
The only person to use a Destructo Disk on Frieza is Krillin and Frieza himself. Neither Goku or Vegeta have used such a tactic on him.
Frieza has done nothing but image train against Goku for over a year, Vegeta beat a near-dead RoF Frieza and Goku defeated Frieza via his strain weakness, rather than combat intel.
Given Frieza has grown far more skilled since RoF, and that Frieza has actively been training more for Goku than Goku or Vegeta have trained for him, it's reasonable to claim Frieza has the intel edge.
Remember: Relative to Goku and Vegeta, they fought Frieza over 4 years ago and then they fought Frieza over 15 years before that. Frieza only fought Goku and Vegeta a year ago and has done nothing but image train against Goku.
Thus, it's not far-fetched to assume that Gogeta might want to go for the kill almost immediately (this is due not only to his knowledge of his own fusion timer, but also Vegeta's lack of mercy and natural hatred towards Frieza).
If Gogeta wanted to kill Frieza, he would have done so at the end of the film. Goku doesn't want to kill Frieza, and Gogeta doesn't kill Frieza despite Vegeta's hatred.
There is no reason to think Hexa Blade is Gogeta's first instinct, or is anywhere near his first action.
Anyways, if we factor Hexa Blade then the argument of Frieza vs SS Gogeta is harder, but if we ignore Hexa Blade I think it's possible for Frieza to outlast SS, SS2 and SS3 Gogeta.
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Regarding Frieza's barrier, this is the best we can ascertain for its durability. It's iffy, because Paragus was blown away by the shockwaves of Broly's blast, but the noteworthy part is how Frieza forms a barrier, and is completely consumed by Broly's energy. Shortly after that, he is unphased whereas Paragus was left collapsed against a rock, just by the shockwaves of Broly's attack.
Considering Broly was comparable to SSB Goku, and how powerful that blast seemed to be, it seems Base Frieza's barrier was capable of withstanding SSB-tier energy.
Golden Frieza in RoF could one-shot SSB Goku, as stated by Goku himself. Yet Base Frieza was comparable to Beyond God Goku (who is basically SSG Goku). That means Golden is something like 2x Blue.
We're assuming Frieza scales to 25x Blue or 50% of SS Broly and SS Gogeta.
25 / 100 = 0.25 = Base Frieza = 1/4th of SSB Goku and Wrath Broly
1 / 50 = 0.02 = SSG Goku
Based on that scale, and assuming Frieza blocked out SSB-tier energy, that means Frieza's barriers can block out energies 4x his own.
Super Saiyan is at least 40x Base, and SS2 is over 2x that, putting Frieza's barriers around the level to block out SS2 Gogeta's attacks.
Now the question is if barriers can block out Destructo Disks.
Considering Broly was comparable to SSB Goku, and how powerful that blast seemed to be, it seems Base Frieza's barrier was capable of withstanding SSB-tier energy.
Golden Frieza in RoF could one-shot SSB Goku, as stated by Goku himself. Yet Base Frieza was comparable to Beyond God Goku (who is basically SSG Goku). That means Golden is something like 2x Blue.
We're assuming Frieza scales to 25x Blue or 50% of SS Broly and SS Gogeta.
25 / 100 = 0.25 = Base Frieza = 1/4th of SSB Goku and Wrath Broly
1 / 50 = 0.02 = SSG Goku
Based on that scale, and assuming Frieza blocked out SSB-tier energy, that means Frieza's barriers can block out energies 4x his own.
Super Saiyan is at least 40x Base, and SS2 is over 2x that, putting Frieza's barriers around the level to block out SS2 Gogeta's attacks.
Now the question is if barriers can block out Destructo Disks.
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Yeah weirdly enough, I agree with Cryo here. Frieza can clap both of them at SSB. But I believe SSBKKX20 and SSBE working together would probably beat Freeza tbh.
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I just assume he had enough time to train up after the ToP, and is much stronger than SSB in Golden. Even so, his barriers are extremely strong and he has ridiculous stamina.
If we claim Frieza is 50% of SS Gogeta then:
If Frieza can paralyse Gogeta for a few seconds, like he did to GoD Toppo, then he can kill him via Death Slicer.
If we claim Frieza is 50% of SS Gogeta then:
- He can endure SS Gogeta for over an hour
- His paralysis works on opponents stronger than he is, for at least a few seconds
- His barriers can block out energies 2x SS Gogeta, possibly blocking even SS2 Gogeta's attacks
- SS3 Gogeta would need to use Destructo Blade or even Hexa Blade to finish Frieza off within five minutes
If Frieza can paralyse Gogeta for a few seconds, like he did to GoD Toppo, then he can kill him via Death Slicer.
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Holy Shit, that's a winning strategy right there. Too bad it will never happen in the series because we can't have Frieza win with his obviously broken Win-Con.
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Paralysis -> Death Slicer is a perfectly valid method of killing somebody twice your power. Krillin's Destructo Disk would have killed Nappa, who had 3x his power level, and we are assuming Death Slicer = Destructo Disk.Dragomer said:
To add further, SS Gogeta's Stardust Fall was endured by SS Broly, who then formed a barrier and overpowered it and then matched Gogeta's Kamehameha. So it doesn't seem like SS Gogeta is much stronger than SS Broly, who couldn't KO Frieza in over an hour. (Albeit he could have been growing as he fought Frieza).
As we've seen with Hit vs Goku a gap of 2x is enough that Hit can't even see Goku's movements, and we know this was 2x because Goku powered up to x3, x4 and then finally x10 after this.
Frieza could tag SS Broly and even phase him after 30 minutes of fighting, so their gap should actually be less than 2x or Frieza is just so skilled he can tag an opponent he can't even see.
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We never saw Freezer's paralysis work on someone stronger, we even already saw what Paralysis did to Broly when used by a somewhat peer, let alone someone vastly weaker.
The implication was that he was growing while fighting Freezer IMO, otherwise Vegeta and Goku wouldn't even have the time to escape or sick him on Freezer since he kept up with Gogeta, they would have been statues from his point of view and i doubt Freezer can even be knocked out biologicaly speaking TBH, Broly just beat him until he couldn't move instead.
Where does the dazing come from ? the best i'v read of the novel say that when trying really hard, he could make Broly doldge, dazing him sound a bit too much damage for what we saw in the movie.
I mean, using the same logic, both Goku and Vegeta outmanoevered Broly before ITing, what's more, let's be honest, 2x being invisible is far from consistent, we've had times where someone with a 10x boost was perfectly visible to their opponents and Freezer was seeing SSJ Broly perfectly before even going Golden and it's way more than a 2x boost.
The implication was that he was growing while fighting Freezer IMO, otherwise Vegeta and Goku wouldn't even have the time to escape or sick him on Freezer since he kept up with Gogeta, they would have been statues from his point of view and i doubt Freezer can even be knocked out biologicaly speaking TBH, Broly just beat him until he couldn't move instead.
Where does the dazing come from ? the best i'v read of the novel say that when trying really hard, he could make Broly doldge, dazing him sound a bit too much damage for what we saw in the movie.
I mean, using the same logic, both Goku and Vegeta outmanoevered Broly before ITing, what's more, let's be honest, 2x being invisible is far from consistent, we've had times where someone with a 10x boost was perfectly visible to their opponents and Freezer was seeing SSJ Broly perfectly before even going Golden and it's way more than a 2x boost.
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The Broly beating is being reeeeally hyped up. He got stomped by Broly. Bad. What, the fact that Krillin didn't die to a Cell Jr despite getting wrecked means that he's comparable to Cell? Since when are wholly one sided matches used for scaling?
Goku and Vegeta together body Frieza in Blue. Stomp with boosters. Solo would lose but would still push him to the brink.
Frieza can take a hit. That's all.
Goku and Vegeta together body Frieza in Blue. Stomp with boosters. Solo would lose but would still push him to the brink.
Frieza can take a hit. That's all.
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We never saw Freezer's paralysis work on someone stronger, we even already saw what Paralysis did to Broly when used by a somewhat peer, let alone someone vastly weaker.
It even ignores the Hakai Aura. The degree of the gap might be considered an outlier, but it's clear that his Paralysis is intended to work on stronger opponents.
they would have been statues from his point of view
I can't find a YouTube clip, but GoD Toppo saw 17's blasts in slow-motion. GoD Toppo is at least over 20x Post-UIS2 SSB Goku, who is at least 40x Pre-UIS1 SSB Goku who fought 17.
SSB Vegeta and SSBKK Goku both fought Toppo on par, and Base Toppo overwhelmed 17 despite the stamina disadvantage.
So the gap in speed between GoD Toppo and 17 is MASSIVE, and 17's blasts were still moving relative to Toppo. The gap between Goku and Broly should be much smaller.
i doubt Freezer can even be knocked out biologicaly speaking TBH, Broly just beat him until he couldn't move instead.
The former is just your assumption. The latter is stated in the Novel. Frieza ran out of stamina, and was unable to keep fighting after over an hour.
Where does the phasing come from ? the best i'v read of the novel say that when trying really hard, he could make Broly doldge, dazing him sound a bit too much damage for what we saw in the movie.
Golden Frieza's punches were able to dull Broly's movements a bit if landed properly, and if he were to throw blows with all of his might, Broly would go for avoiding them.
I'm not saying the punches hurt, but they clearly effected Broly.
I mean, using the same logic, both Goku and Vegeta outmanoevered Broly before ITing, what's more,
By working together and using Frieza as a distraction, yes. Whether Broly was adapting to Frieza is hard to say, but if he was, that explains how they could navigate around Broly.
let's be honest, 2x being invisible is far from consistent, we've had times where someone with a 10x boost was perfectly visible to their opponents
Certainly, but it's the closest thing to an actual 'statement' on how they relate in speed and reactions. To add further, Hit could still sense Goku's Ki and movements and we rarely see the movements of other fighters in their PoV. It's possible that they couldn't see their opponents, but could still sense their Ki.
and Freezer was seeing SSJ Broly perfectly before even going Golden
We never see Frieza's PoV, so he could have been sensing Broly's Ki.
It even ignores the Hakai Aura. The degree of the gap might be considered an outlier, but it's clear that his Paralysis is intended to work on stronger opponents.
they would have been statues from his point of view
I can't find a YouTube clip, but GoD Toppo saw 17's blasts in slow-motion. GoD Toppo is at least over 20x Post-UIS2 SSB Goku, who is at least 40x Pre-UIS1 SSB Goku who fought 17.
SSB Vegeta and SSBKK Goku both fought Toppo on par, and Base Toppo overwhelmed 17 despite the stamina disadvantage.
So the gap in speed between GoD Toppo and 17 is MASSIVE, and 17's blasts were still moving relative to Toppo. The gap between Goku and Broly should be much smaller.
i doubt Freezer can even be knocked out biologicaly speaking TBH, Broly just beat him until he couldn't move instead.
The former is just your assumption. The latter is stated in the Novel. Frieza ran out of stamina, and was unable to keep fighting after over an hour.
Where does the phasing come from ? the best i'v read of the novel say that when trying really hard, he could make Broly doldge, dazing him sound a bit too much damage for what we saw in the movie.
Golden Frieza's punches were able to dull Broly's movements a bit if landed properly, and if he were to throw blows with all of his might, Broly would go for avoiding them.
I'm not saying the punches hurt, but they clearly effected Broly.
I mean, using the same logic, both Goku and Vegeta outmanoevered Broly before ITing, what's more,
By working together and using Frieza as a distraction, yes. Whether Broly was adapting to Frieza is hard to say, but if he was, that explains how they could navigate around Broly.
let's be honest, 2x being invisible is far from consistent, we've had times where someone with a 10x boost was perfectly visible to their opponents
Certainly, but it's the closest thing to an actual 'statement' on how they relate in speed and reactions. To add further, Hit could still sense Goku's Ki and movements and we rarely see the movements of other fighters in their PoV. It's possible that they couldn't see their opponents, but could still sense their Ki.
and Freezer was seeing SSJ Broly perfectly before even going Golden
We never see Frieza's PoV, so he could have been sensing Broly's Ki.
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The Broly beating is being reeeeally hyped up. He got stomped by Broly. Bad. What, the fact that Krillin didn't die to a Cell Jr despite getting wrecked means that he's comparable to Cell? Since when are wholly one sided matches used for scaling?
Since the part that the Novel uses it as an example of Frieza's capabilities? Or the part where Post-UIS2 Goku is dozens of times stronger than before but Post-ToP Goku still gets stomped by SS Broly, whereas Frieza can fight him for over an hour? Maybe the part where Frieza was curbstomped by GoD Toppo in under a minute (who is over 20x Post-UIS2 Blue) whereas he could tank SS Broly for over an hour (who is over 50x Post-ToP Blue).
Not using this for scaling is completely nonsensical, and contradicts major plot elements of the film, statements in the novel and basic powerscaling.
Goku and Vegeta together body Frieza in Blue. Stomp with boosters. Solo would lose but would still push him to the brink.
Except Galick Kamehameha was completely vaporised by SS Broly, whereas Broly dodges Frieza's punches? It's pretty clear Frieza > SSB Goku + SSB Vegeta. Nothing contradicts this in the movie or novel.
Since the part that the Novel uses it as an example of Frieza's capabilities? Or the part where Post-UIS2 Goku is dozens of times stronger than before but Post-ToP Goku still gets stomped by SS Broly, whereas Frieza can fight him for over an hour? Maybe the part where Frieza was curbstomped by GoD Toppo in under a minute (who is over 20x Post-UIS2 Blue) whereas he could tank SS Broly for over an hour (who is over 50x Post-ToP Blue).
Not using this for scaling is completely nonsensical, and contradicts major plot elements of the film, statements in the novel and basic powerscaling.
Goku and Vegeta together body Frieza in Blue. Stomp with boosters. Solo would lose but would still push him to the brink.
Except Galick Kamehameha was completely vaporised by SS Broly, whereas Broly dodges Frieza's punches? It's pretty clear Frieza > SSB Goku + SSB Vegeta. Nothing contradicts this in the movie or novel.
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damn I thought this was a stomp at first but after reading cryo's posts........... dude is smart
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@Cryo
1. Broly's only experience with fighting humanoids was gained through beating up his dad as a newborn and adapting to Goku and Vegeta. Although he was able to keep up, it's very safe to say that someone like Gogeta has a massive experience and martial arts edge on Broly.
2. Frieza has never been shown to use barriers in DB Super unless I'm missing something. Barriers is more 17's thing. Besides, Gogeta could very likely break out of the paralysis just like Toppo did
3. "Golden Frieza's punches were able to dull Broly's movements a bit if landed properly, and if he were to throw blows with all of his might, Broly would go for avoiding them. However, that was all he could do. However, being able to take Broly's attacks over and over again for over 30 minutes is nothing short of amazing. As expected, he's not called the Emperor of the universe for nothing."
Full Power Golden Frieza's blows were apparantly only able to "dull Broly's movements a bit if landed properly".
"Dulling the bloodlusted opponent a bit" vs "casually swatting aside blasts from the bloodlusted opponent" seem like a pretty big difference to me. Also, in the movie, once Frieza transformed, he was screaming bloody murder and charging straight at Broly. So I'm pretty sure Frieza was going all out from the start.
4. Are you implying that they just forgot how to fight against Frieza or something? During RoF, Goku is impressed by Frieza's growth, saying that "it took years of blood and sweat for me to get to this level, while you only trained for a few months" or something along those lines. Before the ToP, Goku once again acknowledges his strength, saying that "he isn't the only one who got stronger". And at the beginning of the Broly movie, Vegeta says that one of his ONLY reasons why he trains is to deal with Frieza, now that he's alive again. Although I admit that Frieza has more intel on them cause he's dedicated his life to killing them, Gogeta isn't going to be in the dark about his capabilities either.
5. Gogeta ony let him go cause Frieza was well aware that he didnt stand a chance against them in Gogeta's SSGSS form. If Frieza never found Broly and decided to fight the duo directly, Gogeta would probably want to at LEAST beat the crap out of him before letting him go.
Besides, although Destructo Disk isn't Gogeta's first instinct, he's probably going to use it at some point or another. These guys are Massively FTL+, so half an hour could be an eternity by their perspective.
1. Broly's only experience with fighting humanoids was gained through beating up his dad as a newborn and adapting to Goku and Vegeta. Although he was able to keep up, it's very safe to say that someone like Gogeta has a massive experience and martial arts edge on Broly.
2. Frieza has never been shown to use barriers in DB Super unless I'm missing something. Barriers is more 17's thing. Besides, Gogeta could very likely break out of the paralysis just like Toppo did
3. "Golden Frieza's punches were able to dull Broly's movements a bit if landed properly, and if he were to throw blows with all of his might, Broly would go for avoiding them. However, that was all he could do. However, being able to take Broly's attacks over and over again for over 30 minutes is nothing short of amazing. As expected, he's not called the Emperor of the universe for nothing."
Full Power Golden Frieza's blows were apparantly only able to "dull Broly's movements a bit if landed properly".
"Dulling the bloodlusted opponent a bit" vs "casually swatting aside blasts from the bloodlusted opponent" seem like a pretty big difference to me. Also, in the movie, once Frieza transformed, he was screaming bloody murder and charging straight at Broly. So I'm pretty sure Frieza was going all out from the start.
4. Are you implying that they just forgot how to fight against Frieza or something? During RoF, Goku is impressed by Frieza's growth, saying that "it took years of blood and sweat for me to get to this level, while you only trained for a few months" or something along those lines. Before the ToP, Goku once again acknowledges his strength, saying that "he isn't the only one who got stronger". And at the beginning of the Broly movie, Vegeta says that one of his ONLY reasons why he trains is to deal with Frieza, now that he's alive again. Although I admit that Frieza has more intel on them cause he's dedicated his life to killing them, Gogeta isn't going to be in the dark about his capabilities either.
5. Gogeta ony let him go cause Frieza was well aware that he didnt stand a chance against them in Gogeta's SSGSS form. If Frieza never found Broly and decided to fight the duo directly, Gogeta would probably want to at LEAST beat the crap out of him before letting him go.
Besides, although Destructo Disk isn't Gogeta's first instinct, he's probably going to use it at some point or another. These guys are Massively FTL+, so half an hour could be an eternity by their perspective.
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1. Broly's only experience with fighting humanoids was gained through beating up his dad as a newborn and adapting to Goku and Vegeta. Although he was able to keep up, it's very safe to say that someone like Gogeta has a massive experience and martial arts edge on Broly.
Yes, and Broly also went from being curbstomped by Base Vegeta to easily ignoring SSG Vegeta's blows in base form in a matter of minutes.
Saiyans learn as they fight. It's how Vegeta learned over the course of all Z. It's how Caulifa learned by fighting Goku. It's how Goku rapidly learned against Hit and Jiren. Vegeta even states they learn as they fight.
Experience doesn't really matter, when Broly learns barriers, paralysis, Kamehameha-tier beams, energy barrages, etc all in a matter of minutes. It especially doesn't matter, when Goku kept up with Broly via technique, whereas Vegeta was stomped, and then Broly stomped Goku after adapting to his God Bind.
Maybe Broly isn't as skilled as Gogeta, but claiming experience or skill is a factor is simply absurd, not in this story of super prodigies such as Gohan and Frieza.
2. Frieza has never been shown to use barriers in DB Super unless I'm missing something. Barriers is more 17's thing. Besides, Gogeta could very likely break out of the paralysis just like Toppo did
I made an entire post on Frieza's barrier, and cited it. But here is the citation.
3. Full Power Golden Frieza's blows were apparantly only able to "dull Broly's movements a bit if landed properly".
After over half an hour of fighting, yes.
"Dulling the bloodlusted opponent a bit" vs "casually swatting aside blasts from the bloodlusted opponent" seem like a pretty big difference to me.
"Overpowering the Galick Kamehameha" vs "Dodging punches" seems like a pretty big difference to me as well. Fact is, Frieza's punches could phase Broly and make him dodge, Galick Kamehameha was just an obstacle to Broly that he vaporised.
To add further, you didn't check the scene properly. For starters, those blasts aren't even aimed at Goku it's a wild flurry of stray blasts from Broly transforming. To add further, Goku didn't deflect those blasts physically. He was using barriers. You even see the barrier formed before Goku starts gesturing and last the duration of the deflections, it's very clearly not physical.
And if you want to consider that a good feat, how about Frieza just standing in the middle of the field, completely confident that no blast will hit him? Even when a blast vaporises Paragus' body right next to him?
4. Are you implying that they just forgot how to fight against Frieza or something?
Vegeta fought Frieza properly once. And that was over 15 years ago in-universe. I wouldn't count him beating Frieza in RoF, considering Vegeta used Blue and Frieza was extremely weak at the time.
Goku fought Frieza properly thrice. Once over 15 years ago. A second time over 4 years ago (relative to Goku) and a third time just before the Tournament of Power.
Compare that to Frieza, who has fought Vegeta once, Goku thrice and image-trained against Goku for over a year concentrating completely on Goku's fighting style.
Frieza's overall focus on destroying Goku, and his training specifically for Goku is going to give him a helluva a lot more intel to work with, than Gogeta combing through memories from several years ago.
And based on Goku handling Broly via technique, when Broly stomped Vegeta, it's clear Vegeta is nowhere near as skilled as Goku. Frieza completely matches Goku in skill, so Vegeta's experience isn't going to help nearly as much.
And at the beginning of the Broly movie, Vegeta says that one of his ONLY reasons why he trains is to deal with Frieza, now that he's alive again.
This statement makes zero sense. Vegeta only started training for Frieza after Frieza was revived in the ToP. He has had, at most, a few weeks to prepare and has far less combat experience against Frieza than Goku.
Gogeta isn't going to be in the dark about his capabilities either.
Let's see what Frieza has, that Goku and Vegeta lack experience against.
He has many techniques that Goku and Vegeta either lack experience against, lack counters against or will have a hard time dealing with. Quite a few of these techniques were only used against them over 15 years prior.
So while Gogeta isn't completely in the dark, there are plenty of things he is either unaware of or wouldn't remember before Frieza uses them.
5. Gogeta ony let him go cause Frieza was well aware that he didnt stand a chance against them in Gogeta's SSGSS form. If Frieza never found Broly and decided to fight the duo directly, Gogeta would probably want to at LEAST beat the crap out of him before letting him go.
That's your assumption.
Besides, although Destructo Disk isn't Gogeta's first instinct, he's probably going to use it at some point or another. These guys are Massively FTL+, so half an hour could be an eternity by their perspective.
All we factually know, is that Gogeta has no lethal will towards Frieza. Meaning lethal intent will be lower down in Gogeta's tactics.
Also, if you use that logic, Frieza fought Broly for 'two eternities'. Which just makes his endurance that much more insane.
Yes, and Broly also went from being curbstomped by Base Vegeta to easily ignoring SSG Vegeta's blows in base form in a matter of minutes.
Saiyans learn as they fight. It's how Vegeta learned over the course of all Z. It's how Caulifa learned by fighting Goku. It's how Goku rapidly learned against Hit and Jiren. Vegeta even states they learn as they fight.
Experience doesn't really matter, when Broly learns barriers, paralysis, Kamehameha-tier beams, energy barrages, etc all in a matter of minutes. It especially doesn't matter, when Goku kept up with Broly via technique, whereas Vegeta was stomped, and then Broly stomped Goku after adapting to his God Bind.
Maybe Broly isn't as skilled as Gogeta, but claiming experience or skill is a factor is simply absurd, not in this story of super prodigies such as Gohan and Frieza.
2. Frieza has never been shown to use barriers in DB Super unless I'm missing something. Barriers is more 17's thing. Besides, Gogeta could very likely break out of the paralysis just like Toppo did
I made an entire post on Frieza's barrier, and cited it. But here is the citation.
3. Full Power Golden Frieza's blows were apparantly only able to "dull Broly's movements a bit if landed properly".
After over half an hour of fighting, yes.
"Dulling the bloodlusted opponent a bit" vs "casually swatting aside blasts from the bloodlusted opponent" seem like a pretty big difference to me.
"Overpowering the Galick Kamehameha" vs "Dodging punches" seems like a pretty big difference to me as well. Fact is, Frieza's punches could phase Broly and make him dodge, Galick Kamehameha was just an obstacle to Broly that he vaporised.
To add further, you didn't check the scene properly. For starters, those blasts aren't even aimed at Goku it's a wild flurry of stray blasts from Broly transforming. To add further, Goku didn't deflect those blasts physically. He was using barriers. You even see the barrier formed before Goku starts gesturing and last the duration of the deflections, it's very clearly not physical.
And if you want to consider that a good feat, how about Frieza just standing in the middle of the field, completely confident that no blast will hit him? Even when a blast vaporises Paragus' body right next to him?
4. Are you implying that they just forgot how to fight against Frieza or something?
Vegeta fought Frieza properly once. And that was over 15 years ago in-universe. I wouldn't count him beating Frieza in RoF, considering Vegeta used Blue and Frieza was extremely weak at the time.
Goku fought Frieza properly thrice. Once over 15 years ago. A second time over 4 years ago (relative to Goku) and a third time just before the Tournament of Power.
Compare that to Frieza, who has fought Vegeta once, Goku thrice and image-trained against Goku for over a year concentrating completely on Goku's fighting style.
Frieza's overall focus on destroying Goku, and his training specifically for Goku is going to give him a helluva a lot more intel to work with, than Gogeta combing through memories from several years ago.
And based on Goku handling Broly via technique, when Broly stomped Vegeta, it's clear Vegeta is nowhere near as skilled as Goku. Frieza completely matches Goku in skill, so Vegeta's experience isn't going to help nearly as much.
And at the beginning of the Broly movie, Vegeta says that one of his ONLY reasons why he trains is to deal with Frieza, now that he's alive again.
This statement makes zero sense. Vegeta only started training for Frieza after Frieza was revived in the ToP. He has had, at most, a few weeks to prepare and has far less combat experience against Frieza than Goku.
Gogeta isn't going to be in the dark about his capabilities either.
Let's see what Frieza has, that Goku and Vegeta lack experience against.
- Homing Death Beams
- Death Cage
- Barriers (Goku uses them in the film, and 17 is a master of them, but we never see anyone counter them w/o brute force)
- Pressure Point Explosions (May ignore durability)
- Frieza's upgraded Paralysis (He used it VERY briefly against Goku over 15 years ago, but this seems to be a different variant).
He has many techniques that Goku and Vegeta either lack experience against, lack counters against or will have a hard time dealing with. Quite a few of these techniques were only used against them over 15 years prior.
So while Gogeta isn't completely in the dark, there are plenty of things he is either unaware of or wouldn't remember before Frieza uses them.
5. Gogeta ony let him go cause Frieza was well aware that he didnt stand a chance against them in Gogeta's SSGSS form. If Frieza never found Broly and decided to fight the duo directly, Gogeta would probably want to at LEAST beat the crap out of him before letting him go.
That's your assumption.
Besides, although Destructo Disk isn't Gogeta's first instinct, he's probably going to use it at some point or another. These guys are Massively FTL+, so half an hour could be an eternity by their perspective.
All we factually know, is that Gogeta has no lethal will towards Frieza. Meaning lethal intent will be lower down in Gogeta's tactics.
Also, if you use that logic, Frieza fought Broly for 'two eternities'. Which just makes his endurance that much more insane.
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