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Goku and Vegeta vs Frieza

He can be used for Broly to pass his nerves for an hour =/= him actualy being shit, otherwise Broly would have either punched his head off his shoulders before he went Golden or gotten stomped when Freezer went Golden, Broly clearly both didn't go for the kill and avoided killing in both versions, otherwise he would have killed Base Freezer instantly and would have still been beating on the unmoving Freezer.

You've stated it and i'm not convinced at all, as far as i'm concerned, Base Gogeta can probably casualy rip Freezer's head off his shoulders.
 
Okay. Your claims have no basis, no rationale and no feats to back them up. So I can't agree with your assessment. My case is made, and you simply don't believe in it.

In other words, you don't convince me. And you don't want to be convinced by me.
 
Gilad Hyperstar said:
Soul Punisher? If Gogeta uses that on Frieza then he's dead. It didn't worked on Broly only because he was always a good guy
Click to expand...
Soul Punisher has no special properties in the DBS incarnation.
 
Then how it doesn't affect Broly despite Gogeta Blue stomping him?

Also it's clearly named and designed after Toei Gogeta's attack
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Okay. Your claims have no basis, no rationale and no feats to back them up. So I can't agree with your assessment. My case is made, and you simply don't believe in it.
In other words, you don't convince me. And you don't want to be convinced by me.
Click to expand...
My claims have more rationale and basis than thinking that Freezer is stronger than Goku, Vegeta and Gogeta and could somehow tank Broly before turning Golden without then curbstomping him after going Golden.

Wanting or not has nothing to do with any of that, you trying to extrapolate Freezer being spared by Broly and Toppo seeing Freezer in slow motion into Freezer being less than 5 time weaker than SSJ Broly simply make no sense and isn't convincing.

Don't act like you're any more willing to be convinced than me.
 
Gilad Hyperstar said:
Then how it doesn't affect Broly despite Gogeta Blue stomping him?

Also it's clearly named and designed after Toei Gogeta's attack
Click to expand...
I made a CRT for it and it was rejected soooo
 
Well, that's not a spirit bomb, and evil characters can survive it such as 50% Frieza.

That and it should have disintigrated him like Gogeta did to the villain in the other movie he was in if Broly had evil in him
 
My claims have more rationale and basis than thinking that Freezer is stronger than Goku, Vegeta and Gogeta and could somehow tank Broly before turning Golden without then curbstomping him after going Golden.

Do tell. What is your rationale and basis?

you trying to extrapolate Freezer being spared by Broly and Toppo seeing Freezer in slow motion into Freezer being less than 5 time weaker than SSJ Broly simply make no sense and isn't convincing.

Ah yes, so Frieza has the durability to withstand a force 5x his own for over an hour. That's why Frieza goes from undamaged to having clear physical damage after blocking a X20 Kamehameha. Unless you are implying X20 Goku is over 5x stronger than 50% Frieza?

Don't act like you're any more willing to be convinced than me.

I am.
 
Super Saiyan Broly would have a tainted soul, and therefore Soul Punisher should effect him regardless. That's the point I am making.
 
My basis is litteraly what i explained above, the movie is clearly not following the 'Toppo' standard of speed you presented nor your standard power and durability, if it did, everyone would have been an unmoving statue to Broly and he would have murdered everyone, including Freezer before he turned Golden.

No, make no sense, because then Freezer and Golden Freezer would have the same durability and Broly would have suddenly stopped getting stronger for no reason only to start again when Gogeta showed up again, Broly was clearly both stronger and not trying to kill Freezer, otherwise Freezer would have been dead 5 time over at this point

No, you're not, otherwise you wouldn't have thrown that 'you're unwilling to be convinced' while pretending you had a different reason for being unconvinced.
 
Tbf I think Frieza surviving that long is an outlier in and of itself, because it causes scaling issues like this very thread made very clear. Freeza being comparable to Gogeta is utterly insane lol.

@Cryo

I know you're just working with the feats the movie provided, but the movie has very inconsistent feats overall. Such as Base and SSJ Goku fighting Ikari Broly who had already overpowered SSG Vegeta. It's full of inconsistencies like that, but obviously that's not your fault so I get where you're coming from. But the scaling is wonky no matter how you look at it.
 
the movie is clearly not following the 'Toppo' standard of speed you presented

We never see the PoV of the characters, and we only saw the 'Toppo standard' in his PoV.

nor your standard power and durability, if it did, everyone would have been an unmoving statue to Broly and he would have murdered everyone,

Is that why Dyspo is trashed despite multiplying his speed by thousands of times? I didn't know 'stone statues' could react to and defeat a moving target.

No, make no sense, because then Freezer and Golden Freezer would have the same durability

Weak. If we used this logic, we would also scale Base Goku above SSG Vegeta. We consider those to be outliers, not their showings in their highest forms.

and Broly would have suddenly stopped getting stronger for no reason only to start again when Gogeta showed up again,

Nothing indicates he did.

Broly was clearly both stronger and not trying to kill Freezer,

Yes, this was very clearly established very early into the thread. What was established, however, is that Broly was still berserk and still trying to beat people into submission. The novel essentially states Broly failed to beat Frieza into submission, and only left because Frieza was too exhausted to even move.

Freezer would have been dead 5 time over at this point

Yes, yes and Base Goku is stronger than SSG Vegeta.

No, you're not, otherwise you wouldn't have thrown that 'you're unwilling to be convinced' while pretending you had a different reason for being unconvinced.

...you're now arguing that I don't know if I am willing to be convinced. How do you know what's in my head? What have I done to indicate I'm not willing to be convinced? I'm trying to respect and respond to your arguments and you take this to mean I'm 'not willing to be convinced'?

Start making more arguments than absurdism, to convince me. Thus far, your only valid point is that the Base forms contending with Broly is ridiculous which absolutely no one disagrees with. SSB Goku being too strong for Broly to defeat w/o going SS and G. Frieza fighting Broly for over an hour are both major plot elements that dictate the flow of the story.

Base and SS Goku tussling with the same Broly that thrashed SSG Vegeta, and Base Frieza not being KO'd by SS Broly aren't relevant to the story, the scaling or even basic reason.
 
Instead what we see is Vegeta, Goku and Freezer seeing Broly perfectly normaly while in their base form, by your logic, he should blitz them to hell and back and yet he doesn't, because your logic doesn't work with what is actualy in the movie.

I don't see how that's a counter argument, if anything it just make my point for me.

'W-w-w-weak', strong argument, my dude.

Except we do consider it that way, there were threads about it and it being outliers or not doesn't change how they show your argument doesn't work.

The video you linked is blocked in my country and the novel doesn't state that.

I don't see how this is a counter argument.

No, i'm stating you perfectly know you don't want to be convinced, someone who is open to be convinced doesn't throw accusation at other people who don't go along with their nonsense.

At least you recognize your argument is absurd.

And you've made no valid argument so it seems i have a head start.

You completly missed the point if you think it has no influence on your argument.

Except no, Golden Freezer wasn't fighting Broly, he was getting beaten with Broly who explicitly couldn't have punched through him like paper and didn't, just he didn't to his base form, going from that to Gogeta having to use hax to beat Freezer is absurd and contradict litteraly everything we see and everything we're told.

Yeah and Base Goku and Vegeta escaping Broly enough to sicc him on Freezer isn't an important plot point at all, it's almost the only actual plot is what you want and everything that contradict the argument you're trying to force unto the story is an outlier.

They are relevant to your argument though because they show the movie isn't following any of the standards or scailing you tried to present.

You can't argue Freezer only being 5x time weaker than Broly just because of a random Toppo POV, it doesn't work with what actualy happen in the movie.
 
The real cal howard said:
Can we take a moment to appreciate the beauty of the fact that Dragomer and I unequivocally agree on something?
Click to expand...
The stars have aligned and we are indeed witnessing a miracle!
 
Instead what we see is Vegeta, Goku and Freezer seeing Broly perfectly normaly while in their base form, by your logic, he should blitz them to hell and back and yet he doesn't, because your logic doesn't work with what is actualy in the movie.

I guess this renders all scaling in the franchise invalid?

I don't see how that's a counter argument, if anything it just make my point for me.

Explain how the characters having the reflexes to perceive and react to beings thousands of times faster than them doesn't contradict the entire idea that Broly was too fast for Frieza to see.

'W-w-w-weak', strong argument, my dude.

Singling out one word out of over a dozen? Really?

Except we do consider it that way, there were threads about it and it being outliers or not doesn't change how they show your argument doesn't work.

I didn't say you didn't consider it that way. I'm stating there is zero evidence that it IS that way. Nor are you explaining how Frieza tanking Broly for over an hour is suddenly invalid. You are essentially telling me to look at blatant outliers regarding base forms to 'debunk' every bit of text, quotation and source I have used.

The video you linked is blocked in my country and the novel doesn't state that.

The scene where Broly beat SSG Goku.

And thus, Frieza's battle continued on for over an hour. However, his stamina was nearing its ends. On the other hand, Broly continued attacking without losing any power as if his stamina were limitless.

Broly did not step any closer. Could he have felt that Frieza no longer had any power left to resist?
As he let out a roar, Broly flared his aura and launched in a completely different location.

Broly was at full power for over an hour while Frieza was growing weaker over time. Broly stopped fighting when Frieza was no longer able to fight back. Thus, Broly 'essentially' couldn't beat Frieza into submission. Only exhaust him.

I don't see how this is a counter argument.

You are using outliers to argue that other things are outliers. Even though the only scene of Base Frieza vs Broly in the novel (As far as I am aware) is in the movie. It isn't mentioned in the novel, nor is it ever mentioned, expressed or utilised in the story. It's filler.

No, i'm stating you perfectly know you don't want to be convinced, someone who is open to be convinced doesn't throw accusation at other people who don't go along with their nonsense.

Your arguments are still just you claiming my arguments are absurd, with little to no sources, information, argumentation, anything. It's quite literally your subjective opinion.

And you even try to force your subjective opinion of my nature as a human being and debater.

So please, stop projecting onto me. I'm not against being wrong, I'm fine with conceding. Just actually debate me or don't.

And you've made no valid argument so it seems i have a head start.

You've posted multiple times mentioning how long my posts are. Several people have agreed with me or stated I have a point. I'm pretty sure I objectively have valid arguments.

You completly missed the point if you think it has no influence on your argument.

Then direct me to the point, as your role as the opposition.

Except no, Golden Freezer wasn't fighting Broly, he was getting beate

You didn't even read a single one of my posts, and you are disagreeing? Seriously?

Golden Frieza's punches were able to dull Broly's movements a bit if landed properly, and if he were to throw blows with all of his might, Broly would go for avoiding them.

Broly who explicitly couldn't have punched through him like paper and didn't,

However, being able to take Broly's attacks over and over again for over 30 minutes is nothing short of amazing.

However, his stamina was nearing its ends. On the other hand, Broly continued attacking without losing any power

Broly did not step any closer. Could he have felt that Frieza no longer had any power left to resist?

So the feat is amazing, Frieza did fight back (over 30 minutes in), Frieza was growing weaker as he fought, Broly attacked without losing any power for the full hour and Broly lost interest when Frieza couldn't fight back anymore.

To put this in perspective, Wrath Broly curbstomped SSG Goku in moments of Goku going SSG and Wrath Broly was weaker than SSB Goku at his peak.

Even if you wanked Frieza's durability absurdly (when his only actually good feats are Goku's energy wave, Toppo's Hakai and maybe the Spirit Bomb) when he's taken bad damage against other attacks (Such as X20 Kamehameha) and was KO'd by equal opponents (such as SSB Goku) or beaten by opponents comparable to him (such as SS Goku) you would still create the argument that SSBKKX20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta can't put Frieza down, when SS Broly couldn't in over an hour, even with Frieza growing weaker over time.

Functionally speaking, SSBKK Goku can't defeat Frieza, because he lacks the AP and the KK is going to strain him hardcore. SSBE Vegeta would likely win due to SSBE being more efficient and treating Frieza as only equal to SSB.

Going from that to Gogeta having to use hax to beat Freezer is absurd and contradict litteraly everything we see and everything we're told.

SS Gogeta = SS Broly.

Broly can't take down Frieza in over an hour.

Gogeta lasts only 30 minutes.

Do the math.

And what have you 'seen' or been 'told'? Frieza has literally witnessed SSB Gogeta, so I don't think you are referring to him claiming he can't handle Goku and Vegeta together at the end of the film. And we are assuming this is just SS Gogeta, not any higher forms.

Yeah and Base Goku and Vegeta escaping Broly enough to sicc him on Freezer isn't an important plot point at all,

Yes, they briefly evaded Broly and used Frieza as bait. How is that comparable to fighting Broly for over an hour straight? Also, they weren't in base. I'm not sure how you made that conclusion.

It's almost the only actual plot is what you want and everything that contradict the argument you're trying to force unto the story is an outlier.

...So are you...arguing that SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta are suddenly 50x faster? Or that Base Goku >> SSG Vegeta or...what is your argument here? That everything is an outlier? Then what WASN'T an outlier in the movie? And what makes you the authority on this?

Literally nothing contradicts Frieza's power in the film OR novel. Goku and Vegeta evading Broly and Base Goku >> SSG Vegeta contradicts scaling depicted in the film within a 20-30 minute period of time.

They are relevant to your argument though because they show the movie isn't following any of the standards or scailing you tried to present.

Then, pray tell, what standards of scaling should we be using? You have thus espoused the headcanon that Broly could have defeated Frieza instantly, when the story contradicts that constantly. You espouse the headcanon that SS Gogeta could rip Frieza's head off instantly, when the story depicts Gogeta as only equal to Broly. You claim Frieza can't tank Gogeta for 30 minutes, when he can tank Broly for over an hour.

You literally contradict the entire story, and the entire scaling of this singular film yet want to criticise me for using the anime series for scaling? If we used the film alone, we wouldn't even be having these ridiculous comparisons. If we used the film alone, we would see SSB Goku and Vegeta evading Broly as an outlier, and that Base Goku >> SSG Vegeta is also an outlier, yet Golden Frieza handling SS Broly isn't an outlier, anywhere. Hell, if we go just based on the movie, Base Frieza handling SS Broly isn't even an outlier.

You can't argue Freezer only being 5x time weaker than Broly just because of a random Toppo POV,

The gap between GoD Toppo and Android 17 is dozens, hundreds, even thousands of times greater than that. the '5x weaker' figure was made up by someone else (I think you?). All I did was use that as an example of how a much slower opponent appears in the PoV of a character.

If anything, if we just used the film scaling we would even have 'feats' of people 1/50th of Broly's power managing to evade him. Meaning your argument that Broly can slaughter Frieza instantly, or whatever, is invalid.

it doesn't work with what actualy happen in the movie.

People 1/50th of Broly's power evading him?
 
I'm in a pretty hectic area rn with focusing on assignments and making some changes in life, so I apologise if I end up being absent for a while or unable to properly argue.
 
Didn't Broly did beated Frieza in the sense that Frieza could no longer resist? Meaning he no longer was capable of fighting? I mean Broly stopped after he realized that (maybe he didn't wanted to kill Frieza?) But beating someone until they were no longer able to fight counts for me as defeating them

Also, I would say that Golden Frieza might be comparable to both SSJBKK20 and SSJBE together, but would defeat them on his own

The Scaling as I see it:

SSJB Goku ~ SSB Vegeta > Wrath Broly (but not by that much)

SSJ Broly = Wrath Broly * 50 = SSJB * (less than 50, but not by much. I'm going to assume 45 times SSJB)

SSJ Broly > Golden Frieza (Frieza was likely capable of harming SSJ Broly, yet still got beaten up. He's clearly below him, but not very far below. Might be similar to Golden Frieza VS SSJB Goku in RoF. Maybe 1.5 times gap between Frieza and Broly is safe to assume?)
 
Didn't Broly did beated Frieza in the sense that Frieza could no longer resist? Meaning he no longer was capable of fighting? I mean Broly stopped after he realized that (maybe he didn't wanted to kill Frieza?) But beating someone until they were no longer able to fight counts for me as defeating them

As I pointed out, Broly has no qualms beating Goku to the point of not moving but took over an hour to do the same with Frieza. It's also stated Frieza was growing weaker as he fought, whereas Broly's power remained the same for the full hour.

He won by 'default' due to Frieza simply being too exhausted to fight longer. Not because Frieza was beaten into submission, or knocked out, or killed.

Also, I would say that Golden Frieza might be comparable to both SSJBKK20 and SSJBE together, but would defeat them on his ow

Frieza would definitely beat Goku, due to Kaio-Ken strain. Vegeta stands a much better chance due to his higher AP attacks and SSBE's efficiency, but Frieza would gain the advantage due to his high stamina/endurance build and Vegeta would need to waste a ton of energy to harm Frieza.

SS Gogeta can't win without hax, because he only has 30 minutes. I would also say Vegito would only tie, because he lasts an hour and it takes an hour to exhaust Frieza.

SS2 Gogeta and SS2 Vegito can defeat Frieza, because their power is much higher and SS2 isn't much worse than SS drain-wise.

SS3 Gogeta can probably defeat Frieza, but it's legitimately possible for him to last the full 5 minutes.

SS3 Vegito definitely defeats Frieza, because Potara SS3 should last much longer than Dance SS3.

That's my overall assessment.
 
I'm not disagreeing woth you on this. Frieza would wipe the floor with SAJBKK20 Goku and SSJBE Vegeta individually. But together might be a different case since their combined power is 40 times SSJB.

Frieza is far above 20 times, but he's also way less than 50 times since Wrath Broly is a bit below SSJB while SSJ Broly who is 50 times stronger is definitely above Frieza
 
The reason I disagree with that, is because Frieza could handle that level of AP for over an hour, even while he was growing weaker due to stamina loss. So I don't see how Goku + Vegeta is meant to defeat him. It doesn't help that Frieza adapted to Goku's entire fighting style, either, or that Goku is going to get much weaker over time.
 
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