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Goku and Vegeta vs Frieza

Quick elaboration on Goku's barrier.

When Broly's blasts strike where the barrier is seen, it clearly has a visual effect and the blasts are deflected from that point. Even when it changes perspectives behind Goku, and the barrier seemingly vanishes, there are still effects of Goku and Broly's Ki clashing.

I don't know why Goku is moving his arms like he's deflecting the blasts physically, when he is shown to be using a barrier and the blasts aren't even reaching his arms. Maybe it's just a weird technique where he is directing the barrier? His arms have a white effect, similar to his poison barrier against Lavender. We also know Gogeta can form barriers with a wave of his arm.

So I think Goku formed a big barrier, then just started forming barriers with waves of his arms. Which would explain why he is 'deflecting' the blasts when he has a barrier active.
 
before I reply properly, can you just use the numbers I used instead of quoting what I said? Your posts are getting kinda long and laggy to scroll through
 
1. Most of Broly's fighting style comes from punching whatever is in front of him like a Berserker. Sure, I admit he has astounding levels of RE and learning, but in the end he just isn't as skilled as Gogeta is. Characters in DBZ have aleays been known for being able to very quickly learn new techniques (mostly because the techniques aren't hard to learn in the first place. I mean, it's all just shaping ki in a different form, it's not as complicated as stuff from, say, Naruto), but in terms of martial arts, CQC< and arguably creativity Broly is lacking.

2. I did not know that. Interesting!

3. I thought the novel just summarized the entire fight.

4. I don't think we're on the same page here AT ALL

I was referring to the first 2 mins of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTUY0ysV03k&t=139s

Not Goku's feat

I meant that Golden Frieza at full power wasn't performing as well as even Base Gogeta was against SSJ Broly.

5. yeah... that's what Vegeta said... that's what I meant...

6. For Frieza's techniques:

Goku and Vegeta have dealt with Homing attacks before, that's not a special technique

Death Cage renders Frieza completely immobile, and I doubt he'll use it in a 1v1

Barriers also isn't special, plenty of characters have used them before

what are Pressure Point Explosioins? I legit don't know what this is. Sorry bout that

Paralysis also isn't special. Gogeta can use it on Frieza too

Death Saucer is just Destructo Disc, which Gogeta has seen before

Nova Strike is just a tackle attack which Gogeta has seen before

A lot of these techniques are either not special since many other characters have used it before (including Gogeta), or Frieza has used it against Goku and Vegeta. It's hard to argue techniques for Dragon Ball cause they just aren't very unique

7. The first sentence was, I admit. The second is just a fact

8. An "eternity" is plenty long enough for Gogeta to resort to lethal techniques. You didn't disprove my point
 
1. Most of Broly's fighting style comes from punching whatever is in front of him like a Berserker. Sure, I admit he has astounding levels of RE and learning, but in the end he just isn't as skilled as Gogeta is.

That's not what I am claiming. I am claiming that while Broly is less skilled than Gogeta, he isn't especially far from him.

3. I thought the novel just summarized the entire fight.

It does, but that excerpt is from only over half an hour. Gogeta would already be defused by that point.

4. I don't think we're on the same page here AT ALL

You talk about Goku and Vegeta's experiences against Frieza, so I addressed those arguments about them.

I meant that Golden Frieza at full power wasn't performing as well as even Base Gogeta was against SSJ Broly.

You literally can't prove that. the only time we see Frieza fight Broly at the start, is in Base form.The quote of Frieza dulling Broly's movements, tagging him and making him dodge is over 30 minutes into their fight, when Frieza's stamina would have been drained considerably.

Even then, Frieza transforming into Golden blew Broly away, and Broly clearly displays shock when he sees Frieza's form. Frieza knocking an enraged Broly away by transforming is far more impressive than Base Gogeta dodging and blocking a few blasts.

So, the only hint of peak Golden Frieza is more impressive than anything Base Gogeta did.

Hell, we have no reason to think Broly held back against Frieza...yet Frieza's transformation blew Broly far away, when SS Gogeta's punch didn't seem to blow Broly away as much, and Broly recovered much faster.

5. yeah... that's what Vegeta said... that's what I meant...

No. You said Gogeta would do that. Vegeta saying it has no relevance, not when Gogeta displays none of Vegeta's hatred or desire to kill Frieza. It's very clear that Gogeta, himself, lacks a desire to kill him.

It would be relevant if Gogeta displayed any of Vegeta's hatred for Frieza, or a desire to harm him. Hell, the dub even makes up Gogeta saying he will 'deal' with Frieza, in the original script he just calls Frieza a hypocrite and teleports away.

6. For Frieza's techniques:

No, Goku and Vegeta haven't dealt with homing lasers before. They have only dealt with telekinetically controlled disks and ki waves. Frieza's homing lasers are original. The closest equivalence is Kefla's Last Resort, but she was barely even directing her lasers she was more of just discharging them wildly and Goku's counter in UIS wouldn't apply to SSB Goku.

Paralysis -> Death Cage is a viable tactic.

Read my post on barriers. No one has countered barriers w/o brute force before, and Base Frieza's barrier could easily block out Wrath Broly's energy blast, which is SSB-level.

His Pressure Point Blasts are this nifty technique.

Sure, Gogeta can use paralysis but Gogeta's version requires more concentration to execute, based on what we saw. And Goku's God Bind also requires more movements than Frieza's Paralysis Sphere. Claiming it isn't 'special' is silly as hell though, only Guldo, Frieza, Goku and Gogeta have used paralysis IIRC. To add further, Frieza's Paralysis scales above his AP.

Gogeta hasn't seen Frieza use Death Saucer in about 20 years (over 15 years + 5 years in Super). Frieza's Ki Control is dramatically improved from before, and as I stated not even Goku could dodge all of Krillin's Destructo Disks untagged.

Nova Strike is not just a 'tackle attack'. 100% Frieza's Nova Strike matches SS Goku's Super Kamehameha, even when Frieza is dwindling in stamina and weaker than Goku. Frieza even escapes the Kamehameha with it and significantly injures Goku. It's extraordinarily powerful, and should not be discounted.

A lot of these techniques are either not special since many other characters have used it before (including Gogeta), or Frieza has used it against Goku and Vegeta. It's hard to argue techniques for Dragon Ball cause they just aren't very unique

You completely gloss over the argument in favour of dismissing his techniques as 'generic' or 'not special'. These are all techniques Goku and Vegeta haven't seen Frieza use in decades, or they have never faced him with before, or should be vastly improved due to his training in Hell.

Gogeta has to contend with ALL of these techniques that Frieza has on memory, meaning Gogeta has a lesser intel advantage technique-wise. He doesn't know the extent of True Golden Frieza's techniques, he hasn't seen many of them in decades or he has no proper method to counter them.

I'm not claiming Gogeta lacks methods to deal with, say, Death Saucer but Gogeta is going to have way more things to look out for, and be concerned about, than Frieza. Frieza knows all of Goku's techniques, knows his entire fighting style and knows Vegeta quite-well. He spent the entire tournament observing everyone else fight.

The only thing Gogeta has going for him, is that he has Paralysis, that's the only 'distinct' thing from Goku and Vegeta that Frieza hasn't seen recently.

7. The first sentence was, I admit. The second is just a fact

It's all semantics, depending on what you mean by 'at LEAST beat the crap out of'.

An "eternity" is plenty long enough for Gogeta to resort to lethal techniques. You didn't disprove my point

SS Broly is equivalent to SS Gogeta. SS Broly couldn't knock out Frieza in over an hour of fighting. Gogeta lacks a strong killing intent against Frieza, so he isn't going to go for Destructo Disk unless he really needs to.

You say it's plenty of time for Gogeta to resort to it, but it isn't. Deciding to kill a guy is harder than just going "Oh it will finish this quicker", especially not when you have no particular desire to kill them in the first place.

Even then, as I argued, Frieza has access to Barriers and Paralysis. Gogeta needs to direct his Destructo Discs to manipulate them, and Frieza has knowledge of using homing techniques, and manipulating discs. It's feasible for Frieza to disrupt Gogeta's concentration.

Even then, Frieza can fire 10 homing lasers at one time, and we see with Jiren that you can grab Destructo Disc (albeit that may be due to his AP rather than that not being bladed). Which may be able to intercept the discs.

You also have to consider, every attack Gogeta uses is going to lower his timer bit by bit. If Gogeta can't take out Frieza with Hexa Blade, he is going to start struggling.

Hell, Frieza can still fight while bisected. So Gogeta is going to need Hexa Blade, to dice Frieza into pieces, or even outright vaporise him, to stop him. Easier said than done. I sincerely don't believe Gogeta is going to sucessfully kill Frieza in just Super Saiyan. He might win via incap with Hexa Blade, but not kill.

Overall, I don't believe Gogeta can kill Frieza (based on past durability feats). Gogeta can't outlast Frieza (based on endurance feats and fusion timer) and Gogeta can't incapacitate Frieza non-lethally (based on Novel stating Frieza resisted for the entire hour, implying he was never knocked out.). The only win condition, that I see, is Gogeta using Hexa Blade to incapacitate Frieza, maybe link into Kamehameha to try and vaporise him.

Gogeta winning hinges almost entirely on his usage of Hexa Blade vs Frieza.
 
If any part of this doesn't make sense it's because I'm mentally exhausted from this argument, so sorry in advance


1. I mean, Broly literally hasn't bee in combat before, has no fomal training, and only has the technique he's seen other people use. So...

3. Which half hour? The first or the second? Cause I thought it was the first

4. I thought you were explaining Goku's barriers? Now I'm confused

Broly was launched quite a few meters against both of them

Shock would imply he was impressed by Frieza's power, which wouldn't make sense since Frieza got his ass handed to him

Also, you're comparing a full power serious Golden Frieza to a Casual Base Gogeta. Frieza was using his full power in order to push Broly back, while Gogeta was ballerina dancing between his blasts.

Also, when DBZ characters are backed up against a wall, they can use their transformations as Kiais to push their opponent back, which is very different than merely transforming. Considering the situation Base Frieza was in, it's safe to say that he was intentionaly trying to get Broly off his back.

5. Gogeta is half Vegeta, after all. To say that Vegeta's hatred towards Frieza (which is 100% of his feelings towards Frieza) has no part of Gogeta's interactions towards Frieza is a stretch. I

6. No other character in the verse has used homing attacks before?

Frieza has never done this. Ever. Plus, Gogeta can use barriers as well. In fact, almost any DBZ character can make some sort of barier with their ki. https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Energy_Shield

He's never used that on people as strong or stronger as him. It's like Dirty fireworks but in close range

I still don't see your point about barriers. Yes, people have to force their way through it. Yes, it's durable enough to block attacks from beings far stronger. That doesn't change the fact that it's used by a lot of people in the series. In this regard we're arguing about different things

From what I can see God Bind and Imprisonment Sphere both are 1. performed with ease and can be used with 1 hand, 2. involve surrounding the user with ki to prevent movement, and 3. have been broken out of by far stronger opponents. I don't see much of a difference. Also, Goku's Paralysis also scales above his AP, since it was able to restrain Broly for some time, and Ikari Broly is Low 2C while God Goku is 3A

An extremely casual Base Goku can't even dodge Krillin's Destructo discs? Jeez, I wonder why. This is the same logic as saying bullets can hurt goku cause he was hurt by them. Besides, gogeta could just blast them out of the air, or counter with his own (or just dodge, but that prob won't work cause they are homing)

Nova Strike is essentially forming a barrier around yourself and tackling people. It's similar to 17 surrounding his fist with his barrier. Also, in the clip you posted you could see that 1. Frieza was still having a very hard time trying to keep up with Goku's Angry Kamehameha, and would have eventually lost the struggle if he did not counter it, and 2. He escaped it just like Saiyan saga Vegeta did with Kaioken x4 Goku's Kamehameha. You don't have to be stronger or as strong to escape energy blasts like they did. I don't see how it can hurt someone with significantly higher AP than the user

To be fair, Gogeta has a few techniques that Frieza hasn't seen them use either, like Paralysis, Destructo Disc, Energy Mines, his own Nova Strike (Miracle of Universe 7), and possibly more. I admit, Frieza compared to other fighters in DBZ has WAY more "interesting" abilities, per say, but to say that that gives him an overwhelming advantage against Gogeta is taking it a bit too far.

7. ok I'll explain what I meant. I mean that if Frieza came to earth by himself with the intent of killing everyone, Gogeta isn't just gonna stand there and try to look intimidating

I still don't think SSJ Ikari Broly is as strong as SSJ Gogeta, mostly cause of how casual Gogeta was during most of the fight. Although I agree that SSJ Ikari Broly is stronger than Base Gogeta, a full power SSJ Gogeta might be a little too much for him (until he adapts and stuff)

Again, these guys are Massively FTL+. And they also don't have a ridiculous amount of techniques. Half an hour should be much more than enough time to actually try anything Gogeta could do.

Can't Gogeta break Frieza's concentration as well?

Although he can fire 10 at once, he can't really do anything else at the same time. Plus Gogeta can just blast them out of the air or disrupt Frieza's concentration. Both of these guys can very easily counter their own

Only SSGSS has been shown to drastically reduce fusion timers. Base gogeta doesn't have access to that in this argument

He doesn't necessarily need Destructo Disc to beat him. He could probably use Spirit Sword like Vegito did. also, he can barely fight while being sliced apart. The only reason why he was able to on Namek was cause Goku gave him energy
 
XD XD RIGHT?!

But still, he has to be as thorough as possible on a topic like this, you know?

Yea of course. I'm just messing around lol.
 
Mickey1940 said:
the last one took 2 hours of research
My brain literally hurts from this
Click to expand...
I litteraly dropped out because the posts were too long, like hell i'm reading and responding to any of that XD
 
Mickey1940 said:
the last one took 2 hours of research

My brain literally hurts from this
Click to expand...
Well if it's any reconciliation to you. You guys win by default Lmao cuz nobody will attempt to read that xD
 
1.

Paralysis is rare. Broly copied it easily. His beam Kamehameha-tier. Broly's technical growth is massive.

'no formal training' lacks meaning. Frieza had no training but compares to Goku when equalised.

Broly learns as he fights, is shown to copy advanced techniques in little time and is a prodigy. It's reasonable to claim his skill isn't far.

Many martial artists IRL state that a novice is more dangerous because a master is skilled enough to not kill you. Broly being a novice would make him more dangerous.

3.

First.

4.

You misunderstood your points. Point 4 is:

  • "4. Are you implying that they just forgot how to fight against Frieza or something? During RoF, Goku is impressed by Frieza's growth, saying that "it took years of blood and sweat for me to get to this level, while you only trained for a few months" or something along those lines. Before the ToP, Goku once again acknowledges his strength, saying that "he isn't the only one who got stronger". And at the beginning of the Broly movie, Vegeta says that one of his ONLY reasons why he trains is to deal with Frieza, now that he's alive again. Although I admit that Frieza has more intel on them cause he's dedicated his life to killing them, Gogeta isn't going to be in the dark about his capabilities either."
Broly was launched quite a few meters against both of them

Yes, although Broly had recovered faster VS Gogeta.

Shock would imply he was impressed by Frieza's power

We don't see Frieza until over 30 minutes later. I'm implying his stamina was heavily strained by that point and much weaker.

Also, you're comparing a full power serious Golden Frieza to a Casual Base Gogeta.

How do you know Frieza was full power? Because he screamed? SS is 50x Base, and was equal to SS Broly. So how is Base dodging all of Broly's attacks 'without trying'?

Frieza blowing Broly away is more impressive than anything Base did, and is more impressive than any of SS's physical attacks against Broly.

they can use their transformations as Kiais to push their opponent back,

My mind is blank, can you provide examples?

5.

It would be, but the film and novel speaks for itself. Gogeta, for whatever reason, has displayed zero hatred for Frieza.

6.

Not of the laser variety. A controlled beam is a SINGULAR attack, controlled discs are PROJECTILES but a series of homing beams, all tracing after a target? If Gogeta hits any those lasers, he is going to be electrocuted. It's harder to evade all of these homing lasers than projectiles or singular attacks.

Plus, Gogeta can use barriers as well.

I didn't say they can't. I said they have no good counters barring brute force.

He's never used that on people as strong or stronger as him.

Frieza hasn't had a lethal context to use them outside of fighting those assassins, and it's executed via Pressure Points instead of just detonating. It's possible that if Frieza can jab Gogeta in the forehead, it will flood his brain with Ki and explode.

I still don't see your point about barriers.

Not arguing against that. Gogeta has no method to counter barriers, and Frieza's barriers can block out energy several times his own. It's a valid method of handling attacks above his AP.

From what I can see God Bind and Imprisonment Sphere both are

Imprisonment Sphere is an energy blast that you fire. God Bind takes up both hands to create, and is a pointblank technique. I shouldn't need to explain why a technique is inferior for taking more resources and having more conditions.

An extremely casual Base Goku can't even dodge Krillin's Destructo discs?

Nothing implies Goku was 'casual' against Krillin. Goku couldn't even blast the discs until they already struck, and we know Base Goku >/= Base Gohan >> Krillin. So why would Gogeta be able to instantly destroy Frieza's?

Nova Strike is essentially forming a barrier around yourself and tackling people.

So it isn't just 'a tackle'.

It's similar to 17 surrounding his fist with his barrier.

Which could damage Anilaza.

Frieza was still having a very hard time trying to keep up with Goku

You also see Goku having a very hard time overpowering Frieza.

2.

Vegeta was badly damaged by it, Goku was constantly weakening due to Kaio-Ken and Vegeta was only engulfed in the highest part of the Kamehameha.

Frieza was undamaged by Goku's Kamehameha, could force it back, could break out of it and could significantly damage Goku.

You don't have to be stronger or as strong

You compare it to 17's barrier punch, which scales far above his AP. Frieza was already in 100% for a while before that, meaning his stamina was straining, and he was already considered weaker than SS Goku in guidebooks.

To be fair, Gogeta has a few techniques that Frieza hasn't seen them use either

Maybe with paralysis.

Frieza knows his own variant of Destructo Disc and, as I said, was observing the Tournament of Power. He knows about Krillin and Goku using it.

Energy mines are borderline useless in the air.

Goku never used Nova Strike. What HE did was just a tackle.

7.

That's irrelevant. Frieza isn't here to kill anyone but Gogeta.

don't think SSJ Ikari Broly is as strong

Their fight has them equal, so this is just assumption.

Massively FTL+.

It's not like their techniques aren't effecting Frieza. It's just taking more time. Again, Goku doesn't want to kill Frieza, and Gogeta never displays disliking for Frieza.

Can't Gogeta break Frieza's concentration as well?

Toppo had to power up. So no, I don't think so.

Although he can fire 10 at once

Use one hand, fire five lasers, use other hand for techniques. The technique being flawed doesn't mean it isn't going to counter Hexa Blade. If those lasers strike the discs, it's going to negatively effect them.

It also heavily limits Gogeta's movements, and Gogeta will get injured if he bumps into any of them.

Only SSGSS

It's only stated that Vegito used up the power to sustain it. The fight between Gogeta and Broly was also a matter of minutes, as far as we know.

Forms have no relevance to that claim. I am referring to Gogeta using Ki in general, not transformations.

He could probably use Spirit Sword like Vegito did

If Frieza can think, fly and fire energy attacks while bisected after losing most of his power, and then survive Goku's energy blast, then survive Namek blowing up in his face...I don't think a stab is going to do anything.

The only reason why he was able to on Namek was cause Goku gave him energy

The only reason Frieza needed energy was because he already lost most of it when he defused. Goku even stated that Frieza loses power with every single punch.

I'm pretty sure Gogeta needs to use Hexa Blade to defeat Frieza and he would need to use a Kamehameha to actually kill.
 
This comment alone is like 1/10 or 1/20 of the total thread, i have no idea how you can write that, especialy knowing most people will just skip it.
 
I ain't reading either if your comments, they are too long, you people need to learn how to be concise and get to the point.

Shame on you all.
 
The people who skip the long ones just make themselves look dumb if they because they more than likely miss important context.
 
More than 50% of that post is me quoting Mickey's points. It's a bit difficult to properly address what I am referring to.

Here, I'll go ahead and remove all of that text and just leave the digits.
 
Honestly, I doubt it would turn out well. I mean, w/o Hexa Blade I genuinely think Frieza can outlast SS Gogeta but whether Gogeta uses Hexa Blade, and how well Frieza can counter it, is up for debate. I don't think we know how barriers interact with ki discs or if Frieza's Death Beams can intercept and stop the discs.
 
Well, as I said, it's never stated if Blue caused Vegito to defuse. So we are forced to assume Ki attacks drain the timer. Broly and Gogeta only fought for a few minutes, from what we know.

Frieza doesn't even need to last 30 minutes, Gogeta is going to dwindle his timer with every bit of Ki he expels. Whether that timer loss is significant is up for debate, though.
 
Even if Frieza was stronger he cannot take both of them not when they are both attacking at the same time. Sure Frieza was able to endure Broly's punishment but this time he's fighting 2 sayians comparable to him at the same time. Plus that Sayian's reactive evolution.

Unless they are going to fight 1 at a time. I don't see this different than Ressurection F
 
If they are comparable to him, their Zenkai isn't going to do much. They aren't adapting to someone vastly stronger than themself. And attacking at the same time doesn't suddenly combine their AP, they would need to combine attacks (like Galick Kamehameha or Final Kamehameha).

Let's put it this way. Let's say KKX20 Goku, SSBE Vegeta and Golden Frieza are all equal. That means SS Broly is 2.5x stronger, and that means Frieza can endure someone 2.5x his power for over an hour straight.

If Vegeta and Goku performed combination attacks, such as Galick Kamehameha, it wouldn't even reach the AP of SS Broly alone. They would need to spam Galick Kamehameha over and over and over for over an hour, just to exhaust Frieza of his stamina. This is all with the Kaio-Ken straining Goku's body over time.

So, even if Frieza can't take them both out by fighting back he will inevitably outlast, and surpass, them when they start to become exhausted from their futile efforts.

You could bring up Goku's God Bind -> Vegeta's Final Explosion but:

  • A) Anime Goku and Vegeta have awful coordination, as stated by Whis
So it's plausible for Frieza to survive via Barrier.
 
Freeza has always been extremely durable af. He survived Namek's explosion while bisected and completely out of Ki, so he's always had insanely impressive durability. I'm still not entirely sure if said durability will let him beat Goku AND Vegeta though. I mean they tanked a lot of attacks from Broly as well, albeit not for nearly as long as Freeza of course. But they shouldn't be weaker than him, or at least not by a significant margin, and that's without both of them amping themselves with X20 KK and SSBE respectively.

Honestly I'm unsure about this so I'll vote Inconclusive.
 
Cyro has made really good points, but I still can't believe Frieza is stronger than both SSBKKx20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta lol. Incon FRA.
 
Yea plot wise it doesn't make much sense for Freeza to be stronger than them, especially that much. I can see him being comparable to their regular Blue forms, hell I'd even give him the edge. But fighting both of them WITH their amps? I'm not so sure about that.
 
Dragomer said:
Just the fact that this logic can be pushed to make Freezer win against Gogeta alone should tell you it doesn't work.
Click to expand...
This part is especially ridiculous lol.

Freeza is just really durable, that's pretty much it.
 
UchihaSlayer96 said:
Dragomer said:
Just the fact that this logic can be pushed to make Freezer win against Gogeta alone should tell you it doesn't work.
Click to expand...
This part is especially ridiculous lol.
Freeza is just really durable, that's pretty much it.
Click to expand...
He's especialy durable against someone who explicitly stopped beating on him when he stopped moving, i have no doubt Broly could have punched a hole in him before and after he turned Golden.
 
The real cal howard said:
The very fact that Frieza employed Broly to get rid of them at all means that Frieza isn't confident in his ability to fight Goku/Vegeta alone.
Click to expand...
Frieza literally tells Paragus to leave Goku to him.
 
Well, I'm sorry that SS Gogeta = SS Broly, and Frieza can endure SS Broly for over an hour. I've already stated Gogeta can defeat Frieza via Hexa Blade but lacks any other good means to take him out in 30 minutes. That's a feat straight out of the film, after all.

Also, you claiming Broly could have 'punched a hole into him' isn't really relevant. Broly beat SSG Goku until he couldn't move within moments of breaking God BInd. If he could do the same to Frieza, he would have.
 
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