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Goku and Jiren upgrade.

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Omegas03

Omegas03

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First of all, I don't want this to get hostile or derailed so be civil and use constructive arguments please. lol.

I suggest Jiren (Limit Breaker) and Goku (Mastered Ultra Instinct) to be 2-C.

why though?

We have to start with how strong are Jiren and Goku compared to Beerus.

We have a statement on UIO3 Goku being possibly stronger than Beerus. For now I am not sure that this means Initial UIO3 Goku or UIO3 Goku (adapted to Jiren, renember that he still had a considerable disadvantage against Jiren but he adapted and made the fight more even), let's assume the first.

Main-qimg-e825dd509938994d1980d6f2cb22f330
and this claim is supported by numerous statements on Jiren being that mortal stronger than a GoD. and nobody didn't even know about his Limit Breaking power at that point.

So for now, we got Jiren >/< UIO3 Goku (adapted) > UIO3 Goku >/= Beerus >/= Champa. Jiren has quite the edge over Beerus, but nothing to prove he has to be 2x Beerus and hence 2-C.

Then Goku masters Ultra Instinct and shifts the edge to his favor. Even before fully transforming he just blitzes and stomps Jiren like nothing. And in the actual battle Jiren can't do absolutely nothing against him.

So... MUI Goku >>>> Jiren >/< UIO3 Goku (adapted) > UIO3 Goku >/= Beerus >/= Champa.

Being honest here, I seriously doubt that the strength of two UIO3 Gokus (or two Jirens or Beerus and Champa, make it as you wish as it would be 2-C anyways) would top MUI Goku's strength. We have Gogeta 2-C here via destroying Broly who here is listed as only a little stronger to the GoDs (which I kinda disagree with). So I don't see why this would be so much different.

Limit Breaking Jiren would scale to this as well as he was shown to be comparable to MUI.
 
@Huesito... I honestly don't know because even SSJ Broly and Gogeta in the trailers were described to be the strongest... So I can't give you a legitimate answer on this.
 
Well, if it was accepted that 2X Beerus power is 2-C (Which I don't agree, but...however), then yeah, MUI Goku and who scales to him should be "Likely 2-C"
 
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
No to 2-C. You don't get to 2-C by being stronger than Low 2-Cs.
Click to expand...
They are using this statement to say that 2X the power of a God of Destruction is 2-C, it's not about multipliers or just being stronger than Low 2-Cs, just that statement which is about a fight between Beerus and Champa destroying 2 Universes, and MUI Goku is 2X stronger than Beerus even in a Low Ball

Again, I don't agree, but apparently it was accepted and that's why we have 2-C Angels, Gogeta and Grand Priest. Anyone who's two times stronger than Beerus is 2-C if we use this
 
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
@Dante Demon Killah Yeah, no one other than Zeno should be 2-C in the first place.
Click to expand...
The only problem with using multipliers is that characters would need to traverse the space between timelines. If they demonstrated the ability to do so, then a 2x multiplier becomes applicable since the only barrier to prevent multiplier use is now gone.

Besides opinion, not sure why so many of you keep saying they shouldn't be 2-C and then proceed to ignore how our tiering system works.

Also no opinion, Toriyama is hilariously loosey goosey with the power hierarchy that we can't tell if a character is 0.5x more powerful or 1000x more powerful.
 
Nah, Ken Xyro (a trusted source of translations) corrected that scan and stated that it actually refers to MUI. It mentions a 'silver shine' and came out for 130, not 129. So it's MUI that is 'possibly stronger' than Beerus.

I've also argued before that Jiren is actually stronger than MUI Goku. He consistently overpowered UI in clashes and, despite being a very talented martial artist, would have needed some physical superiority to keep up with UI. It's clear that the fight was Power VS Skill rather than Power VS Power or Skill VS Skill. That is the entire basis of Jiren's style and UI's style after all.

So, overall? Gogeta scales to Possibly 2-C for stomping FPSS Broly, who is said to probably surpass Beerus. UI Goku is said to possibly surpass Beerus and we don't really know the gap in raw AP between UI Goku and LB Jiren.

Overall, there is insufficient scaling and evidence to make them Possibly 2-C.
 
HOWEVER! AKM argued for, and made, all GoDs scale as comparable, thus making all GoDs halfway 2-C. Base Jiren and UIO3 Goku should both surpass GoD-level and the gap between UI/LB and UIO3/Base is massive.

Unless argument is made against AKM's decision to make all GoDs comparable (Which I do disagree with but is the current standard for scaling on the wiki for GoDs), there is no real argument against Possibly 2-C UI Goku and LB Jiren.
 
@CyroTheMayo

Source? Also if that's true, what a shame lol.

But what about the statements that say Jiren is stronger than GoDs? statements that were made without knowing of Jiren's Limit Breaking/Dormant Power.

We have some clashing statements because MUI Goku can't be only possibly stronger than Beerus if Base Jiren was stated to be stronger than him. MUI is just downright stronger than Beerus going by the premise that MUI > Base Jiren (who is stronger than Belmod, who is stronger or at least equal to Beerus).

@ZamasuChan

Whis and Belmod say otherwise.

Also, as for the people who are against 2-C Angels and Gogeta, I truly had my concerns but let's be honest. Beerus and Champa should be close to 2-C if they could both perform a 2-C feat even if it's shared. if they were only say 1,000x Low 2-C they couldn't do that. and Angels/Grand Priest and possibly Gogeta must be 2-C by that because the show outright has the Angels massively above the GoDs (even their combined strength). a less than 2x difference between them is laughable.

I just suggest a Possibly 2-C. not just downright 2-C because there still are some concerns here.
 
Oh, I had a question regarding this.

If GoD tier characters are in a level sooo ridiculously above Low 2-C they are nearing 2-C while UIO1 Goku scales to Infinite Zamasu aka Baseline Low 2-C, what happens to characters in the middle of that scaling chain such as KKx20 SSJB Goku (post UIS2), GoD Toppo, SSJ2 Kefla and SSJBE Vegeta? do they backwards scale of the ridiculously far onto Low 2-C Beerus or just above Baseline Infinite Zamasu?
 
Source

Yes, Jiren surpasses the GoDs but nothing has ever indicated that he surpassed Beerus. It was disagreed in the revision threads (for 2-C DB) by AKM and others that we could use manga feats/scaling but it's worth noting that Toriyama personally overlooks Toyo's work in the manga and the manga has Beerus taking on several other GoDs, with Goku even remarking that Beerus's Destruction Sphere would have killed four GoDs at the same time.

It's also worth noting that the person that spread the rumor, that Jiren surpasses a God of Destruction, was Belmod himself. Belmod freaked out constantly in the ToP, whereas Beerus was much calmer and only ever lost his cool over Jiren being much stronger than any mortal, with his worst 'freak out' being him sweating and remarking 'Is all this the energy from a single warrior?' (or something like that).

Also, Broly is wanked hardcore in advertisements as being the absolute strongest and is still only 'probably stronger' than Beerus.

@Seed

Yes, it would. Which is why I heavily disagree with GoDs all being comparable.
 
@CyroTheMayo.

I guess I stand corrected. still got some doubts here but whatever, lol.

@Zamasu Chan.

My point was that Gogeta dominated someone who is supposedly GoD tier (nearing 2-C) and since MUI Goku dominated Base Jiren (who was rumoured to be >Beerus) then MUI and LB should be just possibly 2-C because they did the same as Gogeta.
 
Omegas03 said:
Oh, I had a question regarding this.
If GoD tier characters are in a level sooo ridiculously above Low 2-C they are nearing 2-C while UIO1 Goku scales to Infinite Zamasu aka Baseline Low 2-C, what happens to characters in the middle of that scaling chain such as KKx20 SSJB Goku (post UIS2), GoD Toppo, SSJ2 Kefla and SSJBE Vegeta? do they backwards scale of the ridiculously far onto Low 2-C Beerus or just above Baseline Infinite Zamasu?
Click to expand...
The gap between UI and UIO3 are unquantifiable and, as I already posted, KenXyro corrected the misconception that UIO3 Goku is 'possibly stronger' than Beerus.

The only people that would scale to this are the unquantifiable UI Goku, LB Jiren, FPSS Broly, Gogeta Blue, Beerus/Champa and the Angels.

It's also worth noting that UIO has constantly been stated to have poor offensive power due to its incomplete nature, not to mention that everyone has to suppress their powers to not kill or lethally harm their opponents. So it's hard to gauge the actual scaling in the ToP.
 
I personally have problems with using Goku's statement since.... He hasn't seen Beerus' Full Power and all the other statements completely contradict Goku's statement.... Unless we count the Manga.
 
The 2nd Existential Seed said:
I personally have problems with using Goku's statement since.... He hasn't seen Beerus' Full Power and all the other statements completely contradict Goku's statement.... Unless we count the Manga.
Click to expand...
It's hard to say. Goku personally trained under Whis, has fought Beerus (albeit very suppressed) and has personally witnessed Beerus' power numerous times. We can only argue, regarding the anime, what Goku's own self-perception of Beerus' power is.

I can see argument that, due to Whis and Belmod claiming Jiren is a person even 'a God of Destruction cannot defeat' that Goku may consider Broly to be weaker than Jiren, for only 'probably' surpassing Beerus. At the same time, we have statements claiming that Broly surpasses God of Destruction-level so...
 
So what would be the general conseus? Leave Jiren and Goku at Low 2-C or upgrading them?

There's still some conflicting statements here imo so I don't know what to believe.
 
Omegas03 said:
So what would be the general conseus? Leave Jiren and Goku at Low 2-C or upgrading them?
There's still some conflicting statements here imo so I don't know what to believe.
Click to expand...
I can agree with At least Low 2-C for LB Jiren and UI Goku. Anything else is extremely difficult to argue due to contradictory statements, lack of sufficient evidence and lack of knowledge regarding how Beerus scales.

That's the absolute maximum that I can see working for them at this point.
 
I disagree with the upgrade to 2-C for UI Goku, UBW Jiren, FPSSJ Broly.

They should be At Least Low-2C for being a bit stronger tha Beerus. Not quite there at 2x.

Gogeta Blue is defferent because he stomp FPSSJ Broly who was possibly stronger tha Beerus.

Gogeta SSB can use Evolution or KK which can increses his power beyond the x2 times of Beerus Power.

Gogeta from the movie has the zenkai from the TOP and 1 month of training. So he is stronger than MUI Goku.
 
Honestly both at least Low 2-C or at least Low 2-C, possibly 2-C could work to me but then there isn't enough evidence to support it (and/or the show just keeps contradicting itself, lol).
 
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
No to 2-C. You don't get to 2-C by being stronger than Low 2-Cs.
Click to expand...
This is because in most cases, the distance between universes is completely unquantifiable.

Dragon Ball, however, has quantified this distance as the combined effort of Beerus and Champa.

That's the difference, and examples like this are why we commonly rate things on a case-by-case basis. There are exceptions to nearly every rule.
 
Omegas03 said:
Honestly both at least Low 2-C or at least Low 2-C, possibly 2-C could work to me but then there isn't enough evidence to support it (and/or the show just keeps contradicting itself, lol).
Click to expand...
At Least Low 2-C is what I proposed before on the CRT thread for MUI Goku, UBW Jiren, FPSSJ Broly which users supported yet @AKM sama rejeted it.

Possibly 2-C is a big stretch for me for the charaters that I previously mention.

Gogeta Blue should be the only one with At Least Low-2C, Possibly 2-C.
 
ProudLearner said:
Omegas03 said:
Honestly both at least Low 2-C or at least Low 2-C, possibly 2-C could work to me but then there isn't enough evidence to support it (and/or the show just keeps contradicting itself, lol).
Click to expand...
At Least Low 2-C is what I proposed before on the CRT thread for MUI Goku, UBW Jiren, FPSSJ Broly which users supported yet @AKM sama rejeted it.
Possibly 2-C is a big stretch for me for the charaters that I previously mention.

Gogeta Blue should be the only one with At Least Low-2C, Possibly 2-C.
Click to expand...
Why was it rejected though? It seemed reasonable.
 
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