God of War: Possible Low 1-C Upgrade (STAFF ONLY)

[KLOL506]

Bump.

So, @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality, would being infinitely larger than numerous 4-D space-time continuums/universe-sized objects and encompassing them constitute 2-A? Or would it remain stuck at 2-C? Does the Light of Alfheim part mean anything in this case?

@DontTalkDT

 

[Tanin_iver]

I have given @Tanin_iver permission to add to this thread about the topic. He states he has something contributive to provide. I will wait, as he needs time to formulate his comment.

I appreciate the opportunity to contribute on this thread. I apologize for the late response as I had to deal with some RL stuff.

Honestly I'm still of the belief that without the size comparison statements (Which we have still done ****-all about to resolve), my vote on the matter will remain the same as before.

First off all, I'd like to point out that the OP has nothing much to do with size comparison statements. So, bringing that up specifically is derailing.
Also, I'd like to clear my own stance on the Yggdrasil's size statements, which I don't believe qualify due to reasons I explained in the Q&A thread. If anyone has any qualms regarding it you may bring it in that thread, not in this one please.

With all that out of the way, let's get to what the OP has to offer.



The Premise

---

To summarize, all of the nine realms exist within the same "physical space", that being the World Tree, acting as separate planes of existence to each other, despite also being separated on the branches of the Yggdrasil. One of the main developers, Matt Sophos, further clarifies the nature of the realms on his interview with Game Informer, where he repeats that all of the realms are separate dimensions existing within the same physical space and further explains that if you went to Egypt or a country in Alfheim, and you crossed over a portal to another realm from that point, such as Niflheim, you’d be geographically on Niflheim’s version of Egypt. All of this and Yggdrasil's nature is elaborated on the explanation page.

So, they're 4-dimensional space-times that are parallel, in that they never actually meet regardless of any movement one makes in any one of their directions, with their own time axes (On top of the information in the above explanation page, Realm Shifts distort both space and time and do this on the scale of the whole realm but don't affect any other. Even the high Vanir Gods stopping and messing with time in their own realm didn't inundate the rest of the inhabitants of the World Tree). Yet, they're all displaced across a higher-order space (the Realm Between Realms) and the Yggdrasil treats it as the main void it inhabits and has its branches stretch infinitely throughout it.

As such, the Yggdrasil would be a structure that occupies the center of the spiritual void of the Realm Between Realms, which exists outside all of the Nine Realms and acts as a higher order space that these parallel 4-dimensional realities are displaced across, making it a Low 1-C void. As the Yggdrasil has its branches stretch out infinitely through said void, it'd also be a Low 1-C structure.

So what we have here essentially are Low 2-C structures spatially separated(they exist in the same physical space and are parallel and never connect each other) and they are also all connected to the Yggdrasil tree simultaneously. This essentially means that the structures are displaced in a higher dimensional space (a 5D plane compared to the 4D realms) that being the Realm Between Realms and Yggdrasil's branches spread through RBR and connect all the realms.
To understand this visually here's an illustration I borrowed from a comment of DT:

From the looks of it this easily qualifies Ygg as Low 1-C on its own without any extra stuff, since it has to spread through the RBR which we qualified as 5D.
However, there is a lot of extra evidence I uncovered while going through the cosmology blog.



Secondary Evidence

---

1.

The Yggdrasil, also known as the World Tree and the Tree of Life, is the entity upon which all of the Nordic world and its mythology depends, with all of creation resting atop its branches. Its life energy is interwoven into the tapestry of life, birth, growth, death and rebirth and every one of its strand transcends time and transcends space. So the World Tree is not only a higher-dimensional entity with respect to even the Nine Realms but it encompasses all of creation upon itself.

Not only does this imply qualitative superiority over everything in creation including the 4D nine realms, it also elaborates that each strand of the tree transcends space and time with regards to everything else. It is quite explicit, not vague in any sense on what it means and there is very little room for misinterpretation.

Quoting FAQ Q8.

A: As said above, "transcending space and time" is a very vague statement by itself and can mean multiple things depending on the context in which it is made, as well as how this characteristic is portrayed in the first place. However, if it is specified that they "transcend space and time" in the sense that they exist on some higher level of reality that is qualitatively superior to a spacetime continuum in nature, then they should be put at Low 1-C, assuming the continuum in question is one comprised of four dimensions. The answer may vary depending on this factor.

It is perfectly possible for a statement like transcending space and time to mean that a character is simply "untied" from the universe's spacetime, and is thus unaffected by alterations in the timeline and similar meddlings. It's not exactly uncommon for time travel (Or any action / process that affects something through different points in time) to be described as "transcending time and space." Transcend space and time can also refer to a spacetime continuum being different to a "regular" spacetime continuum (Say, a strange-looking reality that may hold a few different physical laws, for example) or slightly do be more complex than a regular universe, even significantly so, but not qualitatively superior. Something A being said to "transcend" something B in real life can refer to the former being superior to the latter in some qualities in a notable way, but still roughly compatible. It does not necessarily mean transcendence not in an immeasurable way that would be graphically indescribable, such as A's qualities being superior to B by infinite amounts. With this in mind, statements of realities or beings with transcendence over space & time/the universe/etc., on their own, are not assumed to refer to qualitatively superiority, unless of course further context may elaborate on and contextualize this.

It should also be noted that simply existing in some alternate state of existence that lacks time and/or space is not really grounds for any tier in particular, as lacking such things does not translate to being superior to them, and would most often overlap with abilities like Acausality or Nonexistent Physiology. A good example of a case like this is Dormammu (Marvel Cinematic Universe), who is stated to exist in a realm "far beyond time," yet never actually displays any superiority over it, and is in fact vulnerable to time-based abilities due to his timeless nature.

The parts I cut off don't apply, while the bolded parts do.
In short, it matches our transcending space-time standards due to providing sufficient evidence and context.
This evidence alone would qualify for Low 1-C or 5D Yggdrasil, but there's even more to go through.


2.

The Light of Alfheim, a primordial force that existed prior to the creation of the Nine Realms (Even prior to Odin) and has gathered souls towards it since time immemorial, is a cosmic light that transcends everything in the Nine Realms and keeps the Nine Realms separate through its power alone. As such, it is likely a Primordial Force itself, much like Fire and Ice.

Being able to keep all of the realms spatially separate across the RBR would itself require the power to affect all of the spatial dimensions of the realms and the RBR across which they are spread. This essentially implies the Light has to be 5D to keep the 4D realms separate across the 5D RBR. If they were less than 5D they would not be able to affect all the axis of movements across which the realms can travel.
The fact that the Light itself is just a part of Yggdrasil implies it too has to be 5D.


3.

Direct physical travel between the Realms is also impossible, even if you are physically on the branches of the World Tree Yggdrasil itself.
Freya explicitly states in GoW2018 that you need a Bifrost to travel between the Realms through the Realm Travel Room, the Realm Travel Room is the only place through which Realm Travel is possible, Odin sealed off the realms of Vanaheim, Svartalfheim and Asgard during the game's said events, but eventually makes Realm Travel across everywhere else impossible at the start of God of War Ragnarök.

So what do the Huldra Brothers Brok and Sindri do? They use Yggdrasil Seeds and the Mystic Gateway in the Realm Between Realms, plus Mimir's Bifrost Crystals plus Kratos's own Bifrost key, to completely overhaul all Mystic Gateways, to re-establish Realm travel. Valkyries travel between realms using their Bifrost-coated wings, and even beasts like Níðhögg and Garm need to create Realm Tears to travel between Realms.

Dimensional Travel: Bifrost is what allows beings to travel between the Nine Realms and it is powered by the Light of Alfheim, first utilized by Freyr to explore the World Tree and establish Realm Travel, then by the Einherjar to travel across the Nine Realms.

To travel between the different Realms Bifrost is needed, which is an energy derived from the Light of Alfheim. Without the Bifrost's LoA being replenished realm travel isn't possible.
And we concluded from the previous evidence that the LoA is 5D and we need it for realm travel which implies that Yggdrasil's branches itself will have to be spread across the 5D RBR for it to be so difficult to travel to the different realms without LoA.


4.

Realm Shift, an ability used by both Kratos and Heimdall, distorts both space and time by default, and literally shifts an entire realm in the process

To shift entire realms the power needs to affect all the dimensions of axis of movement to be effective, further cementing 5D power.


5.

When Kratos opens the Mystic Gateway leading directly into the Realm Between Realms, the narrator states that Yggdrasil’s branches stretch out infinitely. So the Yggdrasil not only holds all Nine Realms, which are in themselves space-times, but it's also infinitely large relative to them.

Finally, the branches of Yggdrasil which spreads infinitely also acts as supporting evidence to the above.
Heck, it gives credence to something even greater, that being Yggdrasil being an infinite sized Low 1-C(5D) construct, since we already concluded from prior points that Yggdrasil is 5D, its branches spreading infinitely suggests infinite 5D structure of Yggdrasil.



Possible Counter Arguments

---

Now, I have expected arguments similar to what was presented in the previous thread, some of which includes line rotated in a 90 degree angle and passing through all the realms, Ygg curving through the 5D space and connecting the 4D realms while still being 4D itself etc. and I have this to say:




All of these are efforts in mental gymnastics based on False premises in the first place.
The cosmology blog has made it abundantly clear on what it is and what it is not, that it is a tree, it has branches that spread infinitely, and the realms are in the branches and they are not connected to each other except through the branches and exist in the same physical space that being the RBR.
It has some of the most elaborate in your face evidence for Low 1-C, that is constantly hammered to your head by explaining various parts of the cosmology and how they interact with each other and what is possible and what isn't.

Even if we were to assume any of them to be true, like say for the line passing through all of the other realms perpendicularly, it would contradict a simple verse mechanic like Realm travel, because for it to be true, Kratos will always be travelling to the exact same spatio-temporal instance each time he uses realm travel which isn't what's happening according to the game.

Heck, once Kratos obtains the Unity Stone, he gains the ability to traverse Yggdrasil by literally jumping off one these branches while wielding the Unity Stone’s power, where he spends like a minute falling into the void, passing several constellations and distant dots, and when the fall finally reaches its end he steps onto what is merely another branch of Yggdrasil.
This, would also be inconsistent with anything like a curve topology since, Kratos himself will have to travel across all the dimensional axis while jumping and not just be restricted to 4D.

In the end all I will say is that while such wacky theories may work, however it would be very inconsistent with simple verse mechanics like realm travel and I suggest we refrain from such futile efforts of trying to impose our own notions over the cosmology regardless of their consistency with the verse.

If any of you have any other different counter arguments, feel free to do so(with the added permission for me to present counter arguments obviously, if needed)



Conclusion

---

From the OP as well as all the secondary evidence I presented above, it is sufficient to conclude that Yggdrasil is an infinite Low 1-C structure.
If we try to impose a 4D structure to Ygg after consolidating all the evidence presented above we would end up breaking the verse mechanics as well as completely ignoring the lore and evidence against such a structure.

 

[Planck69]

I appreciate the opportunity to contribute on this thread. I apologize for the late response as I had to deal with some RL stuff.


First off all, I'd like to point out that the OP has nothing much to do with size comparison statements. So, bringing that up specifically is derailing.
Also, I'd like to clear my own stance on the Yggdrasil's size statements, which I don't believe qualify due to reasons I explained in the Q&A thread. If anyone has any qualms regarding it you may bring it in that thread, not in this one please.



Uhh, I will not say much here. The 9 realms are already accepted as Low 2-C constructs (3+1D) and explained in the cosmology page and the previous thread too.
Bringing already accepted stuff unrelated to OP like questioning the Low 2-C status of the realms, would be derailing. If anybody has qualms about that, make a new CRT, no discussion regarding it here.

With all that out of the way, let's get to what the OP has to offer.



The Premise

---

So what we have here essentially are Low 2-C structures spatially separated(they exist in the same physical space and are parallel and never connect each other) and they are also all connected to the Yggdrasil tree simultaneously. This essentially means that the structures are displaced in a higher dimensional space (a 5D plane compared to the 4D realms) that being the Realm Between Realms and Yggdrasil's branches spread through RBR and connect all the realms.
To understand this visually here's an illustration I borrowed from a comment of DT:

From the looks of it this easily qualifies Ygg as Low 1-C on its own without any extra stuff, since it has to spread through the RBR which we qualified as 5D.
However, there is a lot of extra evidence I uncovered while going through the cosmology blog.



Secondary Evidence

---

1.

Not only does this imply qualitative superiority over everything in creation including the 4D nine realms, it also elaborates that each strand of the tree transcends space and time with regards to everything else. It is quite explicit, not vague in any sense on what it means and there is very little room for misinterpretation.

The parts I cut off don't apply, while the bolded parts do.
In short, it matches our transcending space-time standards due to providing sufficient evidence and context.
This evidence alone would qualify for Low 1-C or 5D Yggdrasil, but there's even more to go through.


2.

Being able to keep all of the realms spatially separate across the RBR would itself require the power to affect all of the spatial dimensions of the realms and the RBR across which they are spread. This essentially implies the Light has to be 5D to keep the 4D realms separate across the 5D RBR. If they were less than 5D they would not be able to affect all the axis of movements across which the realms can travel.
The fact that the Light itself is just a part of Yggdrasil implies it too has to be 5D.


3.


To travel between the different Realms Bifrost is needed, which is an energy derived from the Light of Alfheim. Without the Bifrost's LoA being replenished realm travel isn't possible.
And we concluded from the previous evidence that the LoA is 5D and we need it for realm travel which implies that Yggdrasil's branches itself will have to be spread across the 5D RBR for it to be so difficult to travel to the different realms without LoA.


4.

To shift entire realms the power needs to affect all the dimensions of axis of movement to be effective, further cementing 5D power.


5.

Finally, the branches of Yggdrasil which spreads infinitely also acts as supporting evidence to the above.
Heck, it gives credence to something even greater, that being Yggdrasil being an infinite sized Low 1-C(5D) construct, since we already concluded from prior points that Yggdrasil is 5D, its branches spreading infinitely suggests infinite 5D structure of Yggdrasil.



Possible Counter Arguments

---

Now, I have expected arguments similar to what was presented in the previous thread, some of which includes line rotated in a 90 degree angle and passing through all the realms, Ygg curving through the 5D space and connecting the 4D realms while still being 4D itself etc. and I have this to say:




All of these are efforts in mental gymnastics based on False premises in the first place.
The cosmology blog has made it abundantly clear on what it is and what it is not, that it is a tree, it has branches that spread infinitely, and the realms are in the branches and they are not connected to each other except through the branches and exist in the same physical space that being the RBR.
It has some of the most elaborate in your face evidence for Low 1-C, that is constantly hammered to your head by explaining various parts of the cosmology and how they interact with each other and what is possible and what isn't.

Even if we were to assume any of them to be true, like say for the line passing through all of the other realms perpendicularly, it would contradict a simple verse mechanic like Realm travel, because for it to be true, Kratos will always be travelling to the exact same spatio-temporal instance each time he uses realm travel which isn't what's happening according to the game.

Heck, once Kratos obtains the Unity Stone, he gains the ability to traverse Yggdrasil by literally jumping off one these branches while wielding the Unity Stone’s power, where he spends like a minute falling into the void, passing several constellations and distant dots, and when the fall finally reaches its end he steps onto what is merely another branch of Yggdrasil.
This, would also be inconsistent with anything like a curve topology since, Kratos himself will have to travel across all the dimensional axis while jumping and not just be restricted to 4D.

In the end all I will say is that while such wacky theories may work, however it would be very inconsistent with simple verse mechanics like realm travel and I suggest we refrain from such futile efforts of trying to impose our own notions over the cosmology regardless of their consistency with the verse.

If any of you have any other different counter arguments, feel free to do so(with the added permission for me to present counter arguments obviously, if needed)



Conclusion

---

From the OP as well as all the secondary evidence I presented above, it is sufficient to conclude that Yggdrasil is an infinite Low 1-C structure.
If we try to impose a 4D structure to Ygg after consolidating all the evidence presented above we would end up breaking the verse mechanics as well as completely ignoring the lore and evidence against such a structure.

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Qawsedf234 @Maverick_Zero_X @Emirp sumitpo @LephyrTheRevanchist @Executor_N0 @Elizhaa @Lonkitt

Any thoughts on this addition from @Tanin_iver ?

 

[KLOL506]

Bump.

 

[Therefir]

So what we have here essentially are Low 2-C structures spatially separated(they exist in the same physical space and are parallel and never connect each other) and they are also all connected to the Yggdrasil tree simultaneously. This essentially means that the structures are displaced in a higher dimensional space (a 5D plane compared to the 4D realms) that being the Realm Between Realms and Yggdrasil's branches spread through RBR and connect all the realms.

Question, does the tree really need to be 5D in order to contain 4D realms in its branches? Even if the tree was infinitely larger than the realms themselves, it wouldn't make it 5D, I think that would be 2-A (that's what my very limited knowledge of Tier 2 issues tells me).

The realms being separate and at the same time sharing the same physical space is due to the Bifrost Light of Alfheim, it does not prove that the World Tree is 5D or "qualitatively superior" to the realms, they co-exist on its branches.

 

[Therefir]

I also think this statement is being misinterpreted, it says the Light of Alfheim transcends all that existed in the realm, notice how it refers to things within the realm and not to the realm itself (or at least, that's my interpretation of it).

 

[KLOL506]

Question, does the tree really need to be 5D in order to contain 4D realms in its branches? Even if the tree was infinitely larger than the realms themselves, it wouldn't make it 5D, I think that would be 2-A (that's what my very limited knowledge of Tier 2 issues tells me).

Even Ultima doesn't know anything about this, saying that DT knows this part better than him.

The realms being separate and at the same time sharing the same physical space is due to the Bifrost Light of Alfheim, it does not prove that the World Tree is 5D or "qualitatively superior" to the realms, they co-exist on its branches.

That'd be where the above part would come into play.

I also think this statement is being misinterpreted, it says the Light of Alfheim transcends all that existed in the realm, notice how it refers to things within the realm and not to the realm itself (or at least, that's my interpretation of it).

@Planck69 might be able to elaborate on this a bit better I'd reckon.

 

[Planck69]

Question, does the tree really need to be 5D in order to contain 4D realms in its branches? Even if the tree was infinitely larger than the realms themselves, it wouldn't make it 5D, I think that would be 2-A (that's what my very limited knowledge of Tier 2 issues tells me).

The realms being separate and at the same time sharing the same physical space is due to the Bifrost Light of Alfheim, it does not prove that the World Tree is 5D or "qualitatively superior" to the realms, they co-exist on its branches.

The original logic of the upgrade was that, in layman's terms;

The Nine Realms are 4-dimensional space-times that are completely parallel to each other. For that to actually happen, said realms would have to be suspended in a higher-dimensional space.

Sort of like how lines can't be parallel without being displaced through a 2-dimensional plane and two planes can't be parallel without being displaced between 3-dimensional space-time etc. In this case, that higher-dimensional space is the Realm Between Realms, that exists outside of all other Realms and is the void that the Yggdrasil is suspended in.

As a result of the Yggdrasil being the center of this void and having its branches stretch out infinitely beyond that point, it'd thus occupy a non-insignificant part of that higher-dimensional void (since its branches can reach all Realms that are displaced through it and are infinitely extending through said space) and would be Low 1-C alongside the Realm Between Realms.

 

[Planck69]

Bump.

 

[Planck69]

Bump.

 

[KLOL506]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

The original logic of the upgrade was that, in layman's terms;

The Nine Realms are 4-dimensional space-times that are completely parallel to each other. For that to actually happen, said realms would have to be suspended in a higher-dimensional space.

Sort of like how lines can't be parallel without being displaced through a 2-dimensional plane and two planes can't be parallel without being displaced between 3-dimensional space-time etc. In this case, that higher-dimensional space is the Realm Between Realms, that exists outside of all other Realms and is the void that the Yggdrasil is suspended in.

As a result of the Yggdrasil being the center of this void and having its branches stretch out infinitely beyond that point, it'd thus occupy a non-insignificant part of that higher-dimensional void (since its branches can reach all Realms that are displaced through it and are infinitely extending through said space) and would be Low 1-C alongside the Realm Between Realms.

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Agnaa @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @PrinceofPein @Everything12 @Planck69 @Ovy7 @TheUnshakableOne @Rakih_Elyan @IdiosyncraticLawyer @Kerwin0831 @RatherClueless

What do you think about this?

 

[Antvasima]

My apologies for not removing you from the above notification, Planck.

 

[KLOL506]

Ultima said he was unsure about some of the aspects so he left it up to DontTalkDT to evaluate.

Planck also already tagged Ultima before you did. Elizhaa and Qawsedf as well.

Tanin'Iver's comment is the actual main body of the argument.

 

[DontTalkDT]

The original logic of the upgrade was that, in layman's terms;

The Nine Realms are 4-dimensional space-times that are completely parallel to each other. For that to actually happen, said realms would have to be suspended in a higher-dimensional space.

Sort of like how lines can't be parallel without being displaced through a 2-dimensional plane and two planes can't be parallel without being displaced between 3-dimensional space-time etc. In this case, that higher-dimensional space is the Realm Between Realms, that exists outside of all other Realms and is the void that the Yggdrasil is suspended in.

As a result of the Yggdrasil being the center of this void and having its branches stretch out infinitely beyond that point, it'd thus occupy a non-insignificant part of that higher-dimensional void (since its branches can reach all Realms that are displaced through it and are infinitely extending through said space) and would be Low 1-C alongside the Realm Between Realms.

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Agnaa @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @PrinceofPein @Everything12 @Planck69 @Ovy7 @TheUnshakableOne @Rakih_Elyan @IdiosyncraticLawyer @Kerwin0831 @RatherClueless

What do you think about this?

The problem is that the conclusion that it occupies a non-insignifact, or in fact 5D at all, volume of the the 5D Realm Between Realms, doesn't follow from the fact that its branches connect spacetimes within it.

Like, practical simplified example: Say we have 5D space, that is made from all points with coordinates in the style of (x,y,z,a,b).

Say we have 3 spacetimes within them.

Spacetime 1 occupies all points (x,y,z,a,0), Spacetime 2 occupies all points (x,y,z,a,1) and Spacetime 3 occupies all points (x,y,z,a, 2). (So for each they contains all points, which you can get by replacing the letters with any number you like)

Then Yggdrasil might contain those and branches connecting them. So in addition to those points, it would have some point contained in branches. Such a branch could, for example, be (x,y,z,1, b). This branch would be just 4D (each letter in the coordinates represents one dimension and we have 4 letters here).
And this branch would intersect with each realm. E.g. Points (x,y,z,1,1) are all simultanously in Spacetime 2 and the branch.

So Yggdrasil could be made from a fusion of multiple 4D objects which go in different directions in 5D space. But a fusion of (finite) 4D objects is still 4D, even if in 5D space. (in terms of the Hausdorff dimension)

 

[KLOL506]

Wrong comment @DontTalkDT. This is the main comment.

I appreciate the opportunity to contribute on this thread. I apologize for the late response as I had to deal with some RL stuff.


First off all, I'd like to point out that the OP has nothing much to do with size comparison statements. So, bringing that up specifically is derailing.
Also, I'd like to clear my own stance on the Yggdrasil's size statements, which I don't believe qualify due to reasons I explained in the Q&A thread. If anyone has any qualms regarding it you may bring it in that thread, not in this one please.

With all that out of the way, let's get to what the OP has to offer.



The Premise

---

So what we have here essentially are Low 2-C structures spatially separated(they exist in the same physical space and are parallel and never connect each other) and they are also all connected to the Yggdrasil tree simultaneously. This essentially means that the structures are displaced in a higher dimensional space (a 5D plane compared to the 4D realms) that being the Realm Between Realms and Yggdrasil's branches spread through RBR and connect all the realms.
To understand this visually here's an illustration I borrowed from a comment of DT:

From the looks of it this easily qualifies Ygg as Low 1-C on its own without any extra stuff, since it has to spread through the RBR which we qualified as 5D.
However, there is a lot of extra evidence I uncovered while going through the cosmology blog.



Secondary Evidence

---

1.

Not only does this imply qualitative superiority over everything in creation including the 4D nine realms, it also elaborates that each strand of the tree transcends space and time with regards to everything else. It is quite explicit, not vague in any sense on what it means and there is very little room for misinterpretation.

The parts I cut off don't apply, while the bolded parts do.
In short, it matches our transcending space-time standards due to providing sufficient evidence and context.
This evidence alone would qualify for Low 1-C or 5D Yggdrasil, but there's even more to go through.


2.

Being able to keep all of the realms spatially separate across the RBR would itself require the power to affect all of the spatial dimensions of the realms and the RBR across which they are spread. This essentially implies the Light has to be 5D to keep the 4D realms separate across the 5D RBR. If they were less than 5D they would not be able to affect all the axis of movements across which the realms can travel.
The fact that the Light itself is just a part of Yggdrasil implies it too has to be 5D.


3.


To travel between the different Realms Bifrost is needed, which is an energy derived from the Light of Alfheim. Without the Bifrost's LoA being replenished realm travel isn't possible.
And we concluded from the previous evidence that the LoA is 5D and we need it for realm travel which implies that Yggdrasil's branches itself will have to be spread across the 5D RBR for it to be so difficult to travel to the different realms without LoA.


4.

To shift entire realms the power needs to affect all the dimensions of axis of movement to be effective, further cementing 5D power.


5.

Finally, the branches of Yggdrasil which spreads infinitely also acts as supporting evidence to the above.
Heck, it gives credence to something even greater, that being Yggdrasil being an infinite sized Low 1-C(5D) construct, since we already concluded from prior points that Yggdrasil is 5D, its branches spreading infinitely suggests infinite 5D structure of Yggdrasil.



Possible Counter Arguments

---

Now, I have expected arguments similar to what was presented in the previous thread, some of which includes line rotated in a 90 degree angle and passing through all the realms, Ygg curving through the 5D space and connecting the 4D realms while still being 4D itself etc. and I have this to say:




All of these are efforts in mental gymnastics based on False premises in the first place.
The cosmology blog has made it abundantly clear on what it is and what it is not, that it is a tree, it has branches that spread infinitely, and the realms are in the branches and they are not connected to each other except through the branches and exist in the same physical space that being the RBR.
It has some of the most elaborate in your face evidence for Low 1-C, that is constantly hammered to your head by explaining various parts of the cosmology and how they interact with each other and what is possible and what isn't.

Even if we were to assume any of them to be true, like say for the line passing through all of the other realms perpendicularly, it would contradict a simple verse mechanic like Realm travel, because for it to be true, Kratos will always be travelling to the exact same spatio-temporal instance each time he uses realm travel which isn't what's happening according to the game.

Heck, once Kratos obtains the Unity Stone, he gains the ability to traverse Yggdrasil by literally jumping off one these branches while wielding the Unity Stone’s power, where he spends like a minute falling into the void, passing several constellations and distant dots, and when the fall finally reaches its end he steps onto what is merely another branch of Yggdrasil.
This, would also be inconsistent with anything like a curve topology since, Kratos himself will have to travel across all the dimensional axis while jumping and not just be restricted to 4D.

In the end all I will say is that while such wacky theories may work, however it would be very inconsistent with simple verse mechanics like realm travel and I suggest we refrain from such futile efforts of trying to impose our own notions over the cosmology regardless of their consistency with the verse.

If any of you have any other different counter arguments, feel free to do so(with the added permission for me to present counter arguments obviously, if needed)



Conclusion

---

From the OP as well as all the secondary evidence I presented above, it is sufficient to conclude that Yggdrasil is an infinite Low 1-C structure.
If we try to impose a 4D structure to Ygg after consolidating all the evidence presented above we would end up breaking the verse mechanics as well as completely ignoring the lore and evidence against such a structure.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Wrong comment @DontTalkDT. This is the main comment.

More or less same answer.

The main evidence doesn't hold for what I said above.

And the secondary evidence does neither. The claim that transcendance is qualitative superiority here is not substatiated from the quote.

Keeping 4D realms separated in 5D space does not require 5D power, since it does not require manipulation of 5D space on a large scale, just affecting the 4D spaces to prevent them from coming together.

Moving a 4D object through 5D space doesn't require 5D power. No matter how many dimensions you move something through the power needed for that is entirely dependend on the object you move (and how fast). Like, generally speaking KE doesn't depend on dimensions of movement.

And I already said why the branches stretching infinitely is irrelevant. A 4D object can stretch infinitely through 5D space.


So yeah, my position remains the same. It doesn't meet our standards.

 

[KLOL506]

Okay, so @DontTalkDT, two last questions:

1. So would the Realm Between Realms be a 5D location then, based on your findings?

2. Would the Yggdrasil being infinitely larger than numerous 4-D space-time continuums/universe-sized objects and encompassing them (In this case, the 9 Realms) constitute 2-A? Or would it remain stuck at 2-C based on how many of them (9) it contains? I asked a similar question in this thread BTW

 

[Agnaa]

@Agnaa

What do you think about this?

I currently have 35 threads in my "to-evaluate" backlog, I've added this to the list, and will get to it eventually.

 

[Antvasima]

More or less same answer.

The main evidence doesn't hold for what I said above.

And the secondary evidence does neither. The claim that transcendance is qualitative superiority here is not substatiated from the quote.

Keeping 4D realms separated in 5D space does not require 5D power, since it does not require manipulation of 5D space on a large scale, just affecting the 4D spaces to prevent them from coming together.

Moving a 4D object through 5D space doesn't require 5D power. No matter how many dimensions you move something through the power needed for that is entirely dependend on the object you move (and how fast). Like, generally speaking KE doesn't depend on dimensions of movement.

And I already said why the branches stretching infinitely is irrelevant. A 4D object can stretch infinitely through 5D space.

So yeah, my position remains the same. It doesn't meet our standards.

Thank you for helping out.

I support your conclusions here then.

 

[Tanin_iver]

Thank you for helping out.

I support your conclusions here then.

May, I have the permission to counter his claims and to clarify my arguments, as I feel my arguments have been misrepresented or misunderstood.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, you can make a single post at least, so please make it count.

 

[KLOL506]

Bump

 

[KLOL506]

Bump.

 

[KLOL506]

Okay, so @DontTalkDT, two last questions:

1. So would the Realm Between Realms be a 5D location then, based on your findings?

2. Would the Yggdrasil being infinitely larger than numerous 4-D space-time continuums/universe-sized objects and encompassing them (In this case, the 9 Realms) constitute 2-A? Or would it remain stuck at 2-C based on how many of them (9) it contains? I asked a similar question in this thread BTW

Bump. This still needs answering, regardless of whether Tanin makes a counter-response or not despite being granted to do so by Ant.

@DontTalkDT

 

[GarrixianXD]

Do I have the right to vote here? If yes then I’ll agree with 5-D RBR and neutral with Low 1-C Yggdrasil

 

[KLOL506]

Do I have the right to vote here? If yes then I’ll agree with 5-D RBR and neutral with Low 1-C Yggdrasil

AFAIK, only the votes of thread mods, admins and bureaucrats count in Staff-Only threads.

 

[GarrixianXD]

AFAIK, only the votes of thread mods, admins and bureaucrats count in Staff-Only threads.

Weren’t calc group votes also counted?

 

[KLOL506]

Weren’t calc group votes also counted?

Apparently, not.

 

[GarrixianXD]

Apparently, not.

I see your name is highlighted on the OP. But fair enough.

 

[KLOL506]

I see your name is highlighted on the OP.

Prolly out of respect for me I guess.

 

[KLOL506]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Perhaps you should call for the staff members who responded to the other thread about Low 1-C GoW?

 

[KLOL506]

At this point we're just waiting for DT to answer my question (And possibly Tanin to make a counter-response, if he is in the mood for it that is).

Because as far as I am concerned, Ultima already said he wasn't smart enough to answer the 2-A question and that he left it to DontTalkDT to answer. The rest of the staff have already weighed in their votes.

 

[Antvasima]

At this point we're just waiting for DT to answer my question (And possibly Tanin to make a counter-response, if he is in the mood for it that is).

Because as far as I am concerned, Ultima already said he wasn't smart enough to answer the 2-A question and that he left it to DontTalkDT to answer. The rest of the staff have already weighed in their votes.

Okay. I will remind @DontTalkDT then.

 

[KLOL506]

Okay. I will remind @DontTalkDT then.

Already tagged him multiple times on this thread.

 

[Antvasima]

I meant that I told him via Discord.

 

[KLOL506]

Ah. Okay then.

 

[KLOL506]

BUMP

 

[Tanin_iver]

Well, you can make a single post at least, so please make it count.

Grateful for the opportunity.

The problem is that the conclusion that it occupies a non-insignifact, or in fact 5D at all, volume of the the 5D Realm Between Realms, doesn't follow from the fact that its branches connect spacetimes within it.

Like, practical simplified example: Say we have 5D space, that is made from all points with coordinates in the style of (x,y,z,a,b).

Say we have 3 spacetimes within them.

Spacetime 1 occupies all points (x,y,z,a,0), Spacetime 2 occupies all points (x,y,z,a,1) and Spacetime 3 occupies all points (x,y,z,a, 2). (So for each they contains all points, which you can get by replacing the letters with any number you like)

Then Yggdrasil might contain those and branches connecting them. So in addition to those points, it would have some point contained in branches. Such a branch could, for example, be (x,y,z,1, b). This branch would be just 4D (each letter in the coordinates represents one dimension and we have 4 letters here).
And this branch would intersect with each realm. E.g. Points (x,y,z,1,1) are all simultanously in Spacetime 2 and the branch.

I had already addressed this more or less in the Counter Arguments section in conjunction with secondary evidence 3(Realm Travel) of my previous comment.
So I feel you should just gloss over it again. While, I understand that under normal circumstances if a verse doesn't elaborate on how the universes exist other than well it just exists, then I guess we are free to make such assumptions to Low-ball and still be consistent without breaking the lore and logic of the verse.

But if we apply the same principle here, what you are essentially proposing is that the branches will intersect through each of the 9 spacetimes, which isn't the case at all according to the lore.

Moreover, while using Realm travel according to your proposal, Kratos will have to travel through each realm sequentially on a FCFS basis and on top of that always reach the exact same spatio-temporal instance for each realm whenever he uses realm travel.
Neither of this is true or even consistent with the lore and verse mechanics, as you can freely travel to any of the unlocked realms without ever having to step across any of the other realms and also never be in the exact same spatio-temporal instance when using different types of realm travel. Moreover, Kratos can literally jump across the branches through the RBR using the Unity Stone.

TL;DR: If you have to use geometry, use something that is lore friendly and logically consistent with the verse, and not just any assumption regardless of its consistency.

Also, using Occam's razor, it's much more appropriate to simply assume Yggdrasil is a tree that encompasses the realms in its branches which is what is blatantly stated by the lore instead of baseless assumptions like the branches intersecting the realms like lines perpendicular to the space-times which obviously contradicts it.

So Yggdrasil could be made from a fusion of multiple 4D objects which go in different directions in 5D space. But a fusion of (finite) 4D objects is still 4D, even if in 5D space. (in terms of the Hausdorff dimension)

Not really relevant to the overall discussion, still I would just like to remind you that we are not exactly talking about finite 4D objects here. The branches themselves stretch out infinitely, which according to you is an infinite 4D object, and space-times(Low 2-C structures) are already defaulted to infinite 4D.
So, if we were to consider a hypothetical 5D plane that spreads out across two axes A and B, if the branches were to spread across A axis then the realms(space-times) will spread across the B axis perpendicular to A.
As we can see now, even according to your own geometrical interpretations, the fusion of these structures which is Yggdrasil will spread infinitely across both the axes of the 5D plane. And to define the whole structure of Yggdrasil we will need all 5 axes to denote it, anyway.

And the secondary evidence does neither. The claim that transcendance is qualitative superiority here is not substatiated from the quote.

The Yggdrasil, also known as the World Tree and the Tree of Life, is the entity upon which all of the Nordic world and its mythology depends, with all of creation resting atop its branches. Its life energy is interwoven into the tapestry of life, birth, growth, death and rebirth and every one of its strand transcends time and transcends space. So the World Tree is not only a higher-dimensional entity with respect to even the Nine Realms but it encompasses all of creation upon itself.

Hmmm, feels like a no without much elaboration.

Breaking down FAQ Q8. to identify which are the particular cases that don't count for Transcendence

It is perfectly possible for a statement like transcending space and time to mean that a character is simply "untied" from the universe's spacetime, and is thus unaffected by alterations in the timeline and similar meddlings.
>>The quote is in no way talking about a Character's Acausality

It's not exactly uncommon for time travel (Or any action / process that affects something through different points in time) to be described as "transcending time and space."
>>The quote also has nothing to do with time travel

Transcend space and time can also refer to a spacetime continuum being different to a "regular" spacetime continuum (Say, a strange-looking reality that may hold a few different physical laws, for example) or slightly do be more complex than a regular universe, even significantly so, but not qualitatively superior.
Something A being said to "transcend" something B in real life can refer to the former being superior to the latter in some qualities in a notable way, but still roughly compatible. It does not necessarily mean transcendence not in an immeasurable way that would be graphically indescribable, such as A's qualities being superior to B by infinite amounts.
>> The Norse Cosmology consists of various realms which indeed have different laws and properties compared to each other like time-flows, and they are obviously not considered superior to each other, as presented in the example above.
However, when it comes to Yggdrasil it is considered a greater structure, with superior qualities where something as insignificant as the strands of the tree transcend space and time with respect to all of creation(that being the realms). The tree's very existence supports all of creation. None of the other realms have any statements like this, which talk about transcending time and space.

Also, all of this is definitely not flowery language.


AND ON TOP OF ALL THIS:-

A New extra Argument

I apologize for not adding this the last time, but Yggdrasil itself governs a greater cycle of life, death and rebirth for all of creation, which can be even argued for a higher temporal dimension.

And, I know that the realms themselves being Low 2-C structures means they can share the same time dimension.
But, as they share the same time dimension and are spatio-temporally separate, it means that their time dimension can only contain the set of events or govern the time of only their particular realm and nothing more than that.

So, the only possible explanation is for Yggdrasil itself to posses an extra higher temporal dimension that is capable of governing all of Yggdrasil which includes all of the nine realms and being able to govern all of their time simultaneously through this greater cycle of life death and rebirth.

Now, tell me what does the original quote from the video give according to you then, how do you interpret it?
How should the quote be re-structured to give Yggdrasil qualitative superiority using space-time transcendence in this case?

Keeping 4D realms separated in 5D space does not require 5D power, since it does not require manipulation of 5D space on a large scale, just affecting the 4D spaces to prevent them from coming together.

Moving a 4D object through 5D space doesn't require 5D power. No matter how many dimensions you move something through the power needed for that is entirely dependend on the object you move (and how fast). Like, generally speaking KE doesn't depend on dimensions of movement.

Well, I will just try to oversimplify it. The LoA is a part of the Magic system(Hax).
Now coming to my point, let's just take a 0D point or particle from any of the realms(remember, just a point, nothing to do with 4D or 5D object). This particle can essentially traverse in all the axes(x, y, z, a, b) of the 5D space(RBR). Now for LoA to be able to keep the realms spatially separate in some manner, it needs to be able to act in all 5 dimensional axes of any particle from any realm within the entire RBR. This means that the LoA has the range to affect all 5 dimensional axes or is akin to something like 5D hax. And this LoA is merely a part of Yggdrasil.

And I already said why the branches stretching infinitely is irrelevant. A 4D object can stretch infinitely through 5D space.

Finally, the branches of Yggdrasil which spreads infinitely also acts as supporting evidence to the above.

Also, I'd like to clear my own stance on the Yggdrasil's size statements, which I don't believe qualify due to reasons I explained in the Q&A thread.

I did agree that on its own it isn't enough, but it works as supporting evidence for the overall QS, in combination with all the other evidences.