God of War: Possible Low 1-C Upgrade (STAFF ONLY)

[Planck69]

This is essentially a continuation of the upgrade attempted by @Fixxed a while back, albeit with only the recent argumentation so as to keep it short and easy to follow. The main reasoning starts from here for anyone wanting the full context.

To summarize, all of the nine realms exist within the same "physical space", that being the World Tree, acting as separate planes of existence to each other, despite also being separated on the branches of the Yggdrasil. One of the main developers, Matt Sophos, further clarifies the nature of the realms on his interview with Game Informer, where he repeats that all of the realms are separate dimensions existing within the same physical space and further explains that if you went to Egypt or a country in Alfheim, and you crossed over a portal to another realm from that point, such as Niflheim, you’d be geographically on Niflheim’s version of Egypt. All of this and Yggdrasil's nature is elaborated on the explanation page.

So, they're 4-dimensional space-times that are parallel, in that they never actually meet regardless of any movement one makes in any one of their directions, with their own time axes (On top of the information in the above explanation page, Realm Shifts distort both space and time and do this on the scale of the whole realm but don't affect any other. Even the high Vanir Gods stopping and messing with time in their own realm didn't inundate the rest of the inhabitants of the World Tree). Yet, they're all displaced across a higher-order space (the Realm Between Realms) and the Yggdrasil treats it as the main void it inhabits and has its branches stretch infinitely throughout it.

As such, the Yggdrasil would be a structure that occupies the center of the spiritual void of the Realm Between Realms, which exists outside all of the Nine Realms and acts as a higher order space that these parallel 4-dimensional realities are displaced across, making it a Low 1-C void. As the Yggdrasil has its branches stretch out infinitely through said void, it'd also be a Low 1-C structure.

Agree with Low 1-C Yggdrasil: 0

Disagree with Low 1-C Yggdrasil: 4 - KLOL506, Elizhaa, Qawsedf, DontTalkDT, Lonkitt, DarkDragonMedeus

Agree with 2-A: 3- Planck69, Elizhaa, Qawsedf (Needs more input and elaboration from DT and Ultima as new info came to light)

Disagree with 2-A: 2 (1 Vote Possibly) - Ultima_Reality (Possibly) (Needs more elaboration), DarkDragonMedeus

Agree with 5-D RBR: 6 (2 votes Maybe) - Qawsedf234, Elizhaa, DarkDragonMedeus, Planck69, DontTalkDT (Maybe), Executor N0 (Maybe) (Needs more input)

Neutral on Low 1-C Ygg: 2 - Executor N0, Marvel_Champion_07

Disagree on Low 1-C altogether: 0

 

[Planck69]

@Ultima_Reality @Celestial_Pegasus @Theglassman12 @KLOL506 @LephyrTheRevanchist @Emirp sumitpo @LordTracer @Elizhaa @Lonkitt @Maverick_Zero_X @DemonGodMitchAubin

Any input would be appreciated.

 

[KLOL506]

Honestly I'm still of the belief that without the size comparison statements (Which we have still done ****-all about to resolve), my vote on the matter will remain the same as before. Mark me as disagree.

You will also need DontTalkDT and Obi (Pariah) to check this out.

@DontTalkDT @Aetheric Pariah

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Just like the previous thread, I will stay neutral until more input is given

 

[KLOL506]

Also we misinterpreted Ultima's previous arguments on the Tier 2 stuff in the previous thread. Different time dimensions isn't the same thing as being spatiotemporally separate, the latter is what is required to obtain 2-C to 2-A ratings, not the former. A multiverse can share the same time axis and still be 2-C to 2-B to 2-A, as per Ultima who quoted DT on this.

 

[KLOL506]

Also @Planck69 Make this Staff-Only plus the peeps I tagged.

 

[Planck69]

Seeing how the last thread went, good call.

 

[KLOL506]

There's one more dude I would like to tag who is experienced with Tier 1 stuff and has assisted Tier 1-related projects in the past.

@Executor_N0

 

[Planck69]

Reminder to people that this is staff only.

 

[Planck69]

Bump.

 

[KLOL506]

I would like to tag a few more Tier 1 experts to look at this, plus some other staff that I tagged (Or may not have tagged) in the prior thread who are sort of in the know-how for Tier 1.

@Everything12 @Qawsedf234 @Abstractions @Moritzva @DarkGrath @CrimsonStarFallen @Sir_Ovens @ByAsura @Starter_Pack

 

[GrathOfLux]

Honestly I'm still of the belief that without the size comparison statements (Which we have still done ****-all about to resolve), my vote on the matter will remain the same as before. Mark me as disagree.

Could you elaborate on the "lack of size comparison statements"? I'll be looking through the original thread for context on all of this, but I'd like to hear from you directly what your reasoning for disagreement is.

 

[KLOL506]

Could you elaborate on the "lack of size comparison statements"? I'll be looking through the original thread for context on all of this, but I'd like to hear from you directly what your reasoning for disagreement is.

Basically, I asked Ultima the following.

Me: Do you get Low 1-C for encompassing and being infinitely larger than a Low 2-C structure, or a 2-A structure? Because from what the current standards say it's only about encompassing a 4-D structure. It does not specify what kind of 4-D structure it's talking about, Low 2-C or 2-A.

Ultima: Muddy territory, frankly. 2-A is generally a much safer starting point for that, since we don't really accept that there any any jumps in size that are higher than "baseline" 2-A but smaller than Low 1-C (See the standards on the destruction of multiple infinite multiverses); the smallest skip in size at that point is just Tier 1. Meanwhile with Low 2-C we are forced to include a bunch of shit between it and Low 1-C.

Ultima: Although speaking in terms of raw logic, then I'll note that encompassing an infinitely large structure alone isn't necessarily an infinity higher than it.

Long line (topology) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Take this thing, for example.

Ultima: In a way you can say that, compared to the real number line, it extends a lot further.
Since the real number line is made of a countably infinite amount of intervals placed side-by-side (Intervals like, say, [0,1] or [1,2], I'm sure you know what I'm talking about).
While the long line is made of an uncountably infinite number of such intervals.
Despite that "increased" length the long line is still a 1-dimensional object.
It's not 2-D.
So, there being something that says "Yeah the structure is, in fact, larger than what it encompasses" is important.

Me: So there needs to be a direct statement that is akin to like "This structure views those structures as X-sized (Far smaller than it)/insignificant" or similar is absolutely required then?

A structure being deemed infinitely big and it encompassing realms but there being no direct comparison like the above wouldn't qualify it for Tier 1, correct?

Ultima: Yeah.

However, Planck has brought up his grievances with this, stating that this statement is nowhere to be found in the Tier 1 requirements pages and a lot of verses have Low 1-C without a size comparison statement.

 

[KLOL506]

Bump

 

[KLOL506]

Bump.

 

[KLOL506]

Bump.

 

[Lonkitt]

I disagree with an upgrade to Tier 1. I'm in agreement with Ultima's reasoning as discussed with KLOL

 

[KLOL506]

Currently our issues stem with the size-comparison statement.

However, the issue is, it is not stated in the Tier 1 standards page and many other verses retain and/or have recently gotten Tier 1 without a size comparison statement for even less evidence than what Yggdrasil has at the moment.

So I would like some clarification on that front from Ultima before we go any further.

 

[KLOL506]

I disagree with an upgraded to Tier 1. I'm in agreement with Ultima's reasoning as discussed with KLOL

In the OP, Planck made some new arguments regarding the Hypertimeline stuff and the branches extending to infinity and all that to counter Ultima's response in a way. Did you check those as well?

 

[DontTalkDT]

So, I think I commented on something like this before?

I believe last time I said something along the lines of it being a construct of 4D volume (several spaces + time) spread throughout a 5D space, which is basically what a multiverse is like and hence Tier 2.

At a glance, I would say that still fits the OP's description, or is there something new that I'm missing?


Let me add that I don't think the evidence given really indicates that all realms have their own time dimensions. Spatially localized time stops and spacetime twisting aren't particularly rare superpowers.

 

[KLOL506]

So, I think I commented on something like this before?

I believe last time I said something along the lines of it being a construct of 4D volume (several spaces + time) spread throughout a 5D space, which is basically what a multiverse is like and hence Tier 2.

At a glance, I would say that still fits the OP's description, or is there something new that I'm missing?


Let me add that I don't think the evidence given really indicates that all realms have their own time dimensions. Spatially localized time stops and spacetime twisting aren't particularly rare superpowers.

@Planck69

 

[KLOL506]

So, I think I commented on something like this before?

I believe last time I said something along the lines of it being a construct of 4D volume (several spaces + time) spread throughout a 5D space, which is basically what a multiverse is like and hence Tier 2.

5D space

So this 5D space (Realm Between Realms) containing the 4D volume construct (Yggdrasil) would be a Low 1-C construct then? That is also another point many have been asking clarification on.

I will leave the rest of the nitty-gritty details for Planck to handle.

 

[Planck69]

So, I think I commented on something like this before?

I believe last time I said something along the lines of it being a construct of 4D volume (several spaces + time) spread throughout a 5D space, which is basically what a multiverse is like and hence Tier 2.

The main aspect of the argument is that the Yggdrasil spreads its branches infinitely across said 5-dimensional space. If that's still Tier 2 then there's not much more I can add to the thread I suppose.

Let me add that I don't think the evidence given really indicates that all realms have their own time dimensions. Spatially localized time stops and spacetime twisting aren't particularly rare superpowers.

That's just support for the different time flows not just being localised in the same space, since they're spatially separate dimensions/realities and suspended in a higher order space. And personally, I'd think the qualifier being specifically the dimension and not some arbitrary limit is a good indicator but eh, it's ultimately not that important.

 

[KLOL506]

Don't forget the "endless cycle of life, death and rebirth" cycle arguments, if that means anything in the long run.

 

[Executor_N0]

So this 5D space (Realm Between Realms) containing the 4D volume construct (Yggdrasil) would be a Low 1-C construct then? That is also another point many have been asking clarification on.

I'm not sure if Standards have changed, but originally universal space-times are considered 4D constructs, they are parallel to each other so they are embedded in 5D space across a 5th axis.

So the totality of the fabric of the multiverse would be 5D, but the universes themselves would be 4D and something could be perpendicular to the universes in a 3D sense and cross all of them across 5D space while being 4D.

In Archie Sonic, for example, there's a perpendicular universe that crosses the parallel universes, it's still just a 4D universe, but shifted 90° across the 5thd dimensional axis.

So Yggdrasil could be a similar construct, although I'm not very updated in the rulings.

 

[KLOL506]

I'm not sure if Standards have changed, but originally universal space-times are considered 4D constructs, they are parallel to each other so they are embedded in 5D space across a 5th axis.

So the totality of the fabric of the multiverse would be 5D, but the universes themselves would be 4D and something could be perpendicular to the universes in a 3D sense and cross all of them across 5D space while being 4D.

In Archie Sonic, for example, there's a perpendicular universe that crosses the parallel universes, it's still just a 4D universe, but shifted 90° across the 5thd dimensional axis.

So Yggdrasil could be a similar construct, although I'm not very updated in the rulings.

Apparently DT is stating the Yggdrasil itself would still be 4D while the space it is occupying, the Realm Between the Realms, would be 5D, but clarification on that standard would be nice.

However, the Yggdrasil encompasses the 4D Realms, it doesn't pass through them, but it literally contains them in its branches and the branches are infinitely bigger than said realms.

 

[Executor_N0]

However, the Yggdrasil encompasses the 4D Realms, it doesn't pass through them, but it literally contains them in its branches and the branches are infinitely bigger than said realms.

I normally see encompassing 4D universes while transcending their space-times being considered as 5D, which I guess can work in theory, but I'm not sure about the specific rulings regarding that. I think right now I'm neutral, as I can see that being a valid rating, but being unsure if all the rulings fit with that.

 

[KLOL506]

I normally see encompassing 4D universes while transcending their space-times being considered as 5D, which I guess can work in theory, but I'm not sure about the specific rulings regarding that. I think right now I'm neutral, as I can see that being a valid rating, but being unsure if all the rulings fit with that.

As per my conversation with Ultima above, he stated that without a direct size-comparison statement on top (For example, "The tree is also infinitely bigger than the realms"/"The realms are inconsequential or infintesimal to the tree itself"), it wouldn't fly, DT seemed to express similar opinions and apparently accepted Ultima's stance on the matter.

The issue is, this ruling is not found anywhere on the Tier 1 requirements pages involved and there seems to be some sort of inconsistency on what verses pass for Tier 1 or don't.

 

[Qawsedf234]

So this 5D space (Realm Between Realms) containing the 4D volume construct (Yggdrasil) would be a Low 1-C construct then?

The space separating the tree from other areas can be 5-D, but the Tree itself is 2-A. More or less anyways.

 

[KLOL506]

The space separating the tree from other areas can be 5-D,

It's just the tree occupying this space, there's no other relevant areas to speak of. The other pantheons are not related to this.

but the Tree itself is 2-A. More or less anyways.

Is that even possible, given what Ultima has stated?

 

[Qawsedf234]

It's just the tree occupying this space

I mean, you can have a single universe occupy a 6D space, that doesn't mean that universe is 6D. Just that a 6D space is what it's suspended in.

Is that even possible, given what Ultima has stated?

What Ultima stated is that just being larger or encompassing spaces isn't the same as an additional dimensional axis. The Tree can be 2-A without being Low 1-C.

 

[KLOL506]

I mean, you can have a single universe occupy a 6D space, that doesn't mean that universe is 6D. Just that a 6D space is what it's suspended in.

Yeah, I know, I just wanted to clarify there was nothing extra alongside Ygg.

What Ultima stated is that just being larger or encompassing spaces isn't the same as an additional dimensional axis. The Tree can be 2-A without being Low 1-C.

That's for the first question, not the second question, where I ask where a direct blatant statement in such cases is required to get anywhere near Tier 1.

And also whether it'd even work for 2-A.

 

[Qawsedf234]

where I ask where a direct blatant statement in such cases is required to get anywhere near Tier 1.

You would need a statement that gives the larger than R>F, give it a reason for possessing another geometric axis or being ontological superior in some fashion.

 

[KLOL506]

You would need a statement that gives the larger than R>F, give it a reason for possessing another geometric axis or being ontological superior in some fashion.

Well, there's the Ygg's branches being infinitely larger than the realms themselves and completely surpassing them (The "transcending space and time" statement) and the cycles of life, death and rebirth, which Planck and I made special emphasis on many times, so...

 

[KLOL506]

Basically it boils down to this for the Yggdrasil's attributes:

• Transcending space and time.
• Being infinitely larger than 4-D/Low 2-C structures Realms (Though no direct size comparison is given, the branches are merely stated to stretch to infinity).
• Not being affected by the nature of 4-D structures (Realm Shift means nothing to the World Tree at all).
• The endless cycle of "creation, destruction, rebirth, destiny, space, time, death and life" is merely an aspect of the World Tree.
• The Light of Alfheim, which itself is a higher-dimensional force than the 4-D/Low 2-C structures, is also merely an aspect of Yggdrasil.

So, if the tree doesn't get Low 1-C, what would it get?

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality Would it be 2-A? Or just 2-C?

 

[Planck69]

@Qawsedf234

Assuming you're aware that it's the Yggdrasil extending infinitely across the Realm Between Realms relative to the finite Nine Realms (rather than having the usual infinite realities), then I'm also fine with 2-A if nothing else.

 

[KLOL506]

Bump

 

[KLOL506]

Basically it boils down to this for the Yggdrasil's attributes:

• Transcending space and time.
• Being infinitely larger than 4-D/Low 2-C structures Realms (Though no direct size comparison is given, the branches are merely stated to stretch to infinity).
• Not being affected by the nature of 4-D structures (Realm Shift means nothing to the World Tree at all).
• The endless cycle of "creation, destruction, rebirth, destiny, space, time, death and life" is merely an aspect of the World Tree.
• The Light of Alfheim, which itself is a higher-dimensional force than the 4-D/Low 2-C structures, is also merely an aspect of Yggdrasil.

So, if the tree doesn't get Low 1-C, what would it get?

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality Would it be 2-A? Or just 2-C?

Bump

 

[KLOL506]

Bump.

 

[KLOL506]

Bump.