Glyph Creation Revision

[SomebodyData]

Again, platform creation users generally aren't forcefield or creation users, so it wouldn't be intersecting with anything.

 

[Antoniofer]

Welp, they do tend to create a platform, making it by association a variation of Creation. Now, if they manipulate and solidify water, sand or light to construct a platform, better simply write it as an application of say power instead of writing Creation.

 

[Bobsican]

I agree, we may as well make a page for "Restrain Creation" if we went like this for the page to be made (or renamed), it's just a potential use of many other abilities, and a power page just for an action (Spin Dash got removed, after all) goes against the premise of making such powers easier to introduce to users when it can just be on the Notable Attacks/Techniques section over something like "Can use X power to make a platform to..." and so on, if anything.
It just isn't something informative enought on a profile beyond "Hey, this guy can use X power as a platform source" out of the inability to generalize the source or the way it's used beyond the basic premise, a power page over something that can be covered as briefly as just a mere technique doesn't seems necessary for indexing out of the before-mentioned reasons.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Bobsican pretty sure there is a difference between an ability and an action like restraining.

@Antoniofer like I said above, that's not true. I could think of quite a few that don't fall under any other ability (For example, all of the examples on the actual page for it), and most that have the ability don't have creation.

Though I do find it weird how restrictive we're being on an indexing site.

 

[Bobsican]

I mean, you use a platform to push yourself somewhere, using a platform is an action, rather than an "ability", If we focus only on the "Creation" bit, then it's just going to be Creation. I don't think such sort of page is needed for indexing purposes and seems more like detrimental out of the issues I've said before.

Yeah, indexing stuff is the main purpose, but not everything is welcome, I'm considering doing a CRT later on Gallery standards as some pages straight up have memes, non-canon art/fanart, verse pages with title pictures for each entry on the series with no canon organization purpose, among others, but that's for another day.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'm not too keen on debating this anymore, so lemme just post some last general thoughts.

Making a lot of changes isn't inherently "progress" nor is it inherently "helpful", even if they seem like they would be. The primary purpose of the site is for entertainment. It's a hobby. Placing arbitrary restrictions on things and trying to draw lots and lots of lines in the sand where they aren't needed are only really contributing to making people wanna bugger off. Don't overcomplicate things, yo.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Kinda surprised Weiss was nver brought up here given her whole thing with making non-magic glyphs

 

[Bobsican]

I'm not too keen on debating this anymore, so lemme just post some last general thoughts.

Making a lot of changes isn't inherently "progress" nor is it inherently "helpful", even if they seem like they would be. The primary purpose of the site is for entertainment. It's a hobby. Placing arbitrary restrictions on things and trying to draw lots and lots of lines in the sand where they aren't needed are only really contributing to making people wanna bugger off. Don't overcomplicate things, yo.

Actually, the primary purpose of the site is "properly index the statistics of characters from a wide variety of different fictional franchises.", so yes, this may be annoying and all, but any issue should be polished for it to be usable for this sort of purposes with no trouble.

 

[Antvasima]

Though I do find it weird how restrictive we're being on an indexing site.

That is a very good point.

 

[Antvasima]

Making a lot of changes isn't inherently "progress" nor is it inherently "helpful", even if they seem like they would be. The primary purpose of the site is for entertainment. It's a hobby. Placing arbitrary restrictions on things and trying to draw lots and lots of lines in the sand where they aren't needed are only really contributing to making people wanna bugger off. Don't overcomplicate things, yo.

This is also a good point.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, we seem to have a few options here:

1) Leave the page as it is.

2) Expanding a bit on the defined uses of glyphs beyond creating platforms.

3) Renaming the page to Platform Creation, and having to update a lot of character profiles that link to it afterwards.

4) Deleting the page, and also having to update lots of pages afterwards.

What do the staff members here respectively support?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Actually, the primary purpose of the site is "properly index the statistics of characters from a wide variety of different fictional franchises.", so yes, this may be annoying and all, but any issue should be polished for it to be usable for this sort of purposes with no trouble.

My point exactly- or, at least, the end goal is the same. Trouble is to be avoided. So has it occurred to you, that swapping up many things that probably don't need swapping, could cause confusion? Could you reliably say every veteran member of the site could tell you the same procedures, given that we change them so often?

Food for thought.

 

[Bobsican]

Well, that's more of just an appeal to tradition, which shouldn't be given too much priority to unless it compromises stuff rather directly.
Changing the way of thinking from one time to another is also quite common, that's why CRTs tend to go in unexpected ways at times.
In the end doing large changes isn't necessarily bad, but it isn't necessarily good either, yes.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Well, that's more of just an appeal to tradition, which shouldn't be given too much priority to unless it compromises stuff rather directly.
Changing the way of thinking from one time to another is also quite common, that's why CRTs tend to go in unexpected ways at times.
In the end doing large changes isn't necessarily bad, but it isn't necessarily good either, yes.

It is no such thing. It is an appeal to keeping the site user-friendly. I believe tweaking everything for low priority reasons is more of a hassle on the average user than leaving some things be. For example, your proposed future revision: why block fanart? If an artist is credited and the artwork is removed at request, what is the issue? 's foolish. Nonsense.

Regarding the last line, yeah, that's what I said. So just doing a large revision for the sake of doing a large revision reeks to me. A wise man once said, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". I don't think most of the things you're attempting to tweak are broken. Could just be me, though, I suppose.

 

[Antvasima]

I do agree that Bobsican seems to be overzealous and relentlessly push some unnecessary revisions in his attempts to improve on the wiki.

 

[AKM sama]

Yeah looking at the recent arguments, I am fine with a rename. It doesn't really need to be deleted seeing how it is a rather unique and limited compared to normal forcefield creation.

 

[Agnaa]

These are my approximations by seeing people's posts thus far and may be slightly off:

Delete: 2 (Bobsican, Wokistan)

Rename: 4 (Mr. Bambu, SomebodyData, Antvasima, AKM Sama)

Either of the Above: 6 (Agnaa, Antoniofer, Ionliosite, Damage3245, YuriAkuto, Elizhaa)

Do Nothing: 0

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, we seem to have a few options here:

1) Leave the page as it is.

2) Expanding a bit on the defined uses of glyphs beyond creating platforms.

3) Renaming the page to Platform Creation, and having to update a lot of character profiles that link to it afterwards.

4) Deleting the page, and also having to update lots of pages afterwards.

What do the staff members here respectively support?

Maybe we can use this updated tally instead?

 

[Bobsican]

It is no such thing. It is an appeal to keeping the site user-friendly. I believe tweaking everything for low priority reasons is more of a hassle on the average user than leaving some things be. For example, your proposed future revision: why block fanart? If an artist is credited and the artwork is removed at request, what is the issue? 's foolish. Nonsense.

Regarding the last line, yeah, that's what I said. So just doing a large revision for the sake of doing a large revision reeks to me. A wise man once said, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". I don't think most of the things you're attempting to tweak are broken. Could just be me, though, I suppose.

Well, in some cases it looks too unprofessional, and plenty of cases don't bother to give credit, my main concern were the "memes" as seen in pages such as Patrick Star, but this is off-topic, this revision would aim more for some minimal standards as to what can be featured into a gallery section, rather than necessarily limit it to only official diverse canon designs of the character and its equipment, moves, etc. in question. Otherwise plenty of verses such as Fist of the North Star would be hindered indexing-wise out of using pictures from a non-canon game, let alone literary-based verses with their fanart in lack of better options... yeah, but as said before, this would be best covered in another thread.

Anyways, I'm fine with any way the Platform Creation page goes, on retrospective it wouldn't hurt to add as it could just be another power page to simplify indexing, so yeah, I'm fine with the rename of Glyph Creation and Platform Creation being made instead, although I support more the powers just being removed for the reasons I said before if you ask me.

 

[Agnaa]

@Ant That is a viable alternative but I didn't really see the point of switching to it, since the real disagreement seemed to be between deleting and renaming, without people pushing too hard for leaving it the same or rewriting the page.

And with Bob's change of heart here, Wokistan's the only one set on deleting it, with the rest of the users supporting a rename or being fine with either.

Will this rename be possible purely through renaming the page, with a bot changing the mentions of it on profiles?

 

[Bobsican]

Nah, I still support more deleting it.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, as I mentioned earlier, it is very likely that several characters have the ability listed for using glyph magic for other purposes than creating platforms, so this would likely have to be investigated and updated manually.

 

[Agnaa]

Bump.

tl;dr Bob and Wokistan want to delete it, 4 people want to rename to Platform Creation, everyone else thinks either of these is fine.

 

[Ionliosite]

everyone else thinks either of these is fine.

No, I'm also for deleting it and have no idea why I'm listed under another option.

 

[Agnaa]

Because your only comment here was agreeing with Antoniofer's proposal, which suggested either renaming it or merging it with the Creation page. But I'll change where you're listed, then.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I personally don't mind if we delete the page, but some members would have to be willing to remove all links to it from other pages afterwards, and that would be quite a lot of work, so we need some volunteers.

 

[Ionliosite]

I have no issue helping out, I'm not asking other people to do all the work by themselves, I wouldn't agree to such change if I didn't know the work is worth it.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you. That is very appreciated, but almost 170 pages need to be updated in terms of links and categories if I delete the page:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Glyph_Creation?namespace=0&limit=170

 

[Agnaa]

Would it be any easier to:

• Put Platform Creation as a subsection of Creation
• Delete the Glyph Creation page
• Use a bot to change all links/categories of Glyph Creation to go towards Creation instead
• Have people manually check the pages which had both powers to edit out the duplicates?

 

[Antvasima]

It seems very redundant and misleading. Creation is a far more advanced and versatile ability. As such, it is probably better to delete the Glyph Creation page.

 

[Agnaa]

I still think that sort of ability should be indexed somewhere, characters who can do it should be able to link to something.

If deleting it means removing it from profiles completely with no replacement/merging, then I'd rather just rename it to Platform Creation.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that is a good point.

I have seen glyph magic be used for other purposes than platforms within fiction though, such as force fields/barriers, so whoever updates the profile pages that link to it afterwards would have to check if each of the relevant characters are described to actually create platforms by using it.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Once again i point to Weiss

 

[SamanPatou]

I suppose that is a good point.

I have seen glyph magic be used for other purposes than platforms within fiction though, such as force fields/barriers, so whoever updates the profile pages that link to it afterwards would have to check if each of the relevant characters are described to actually create platforms by using it.

I agree, because a Glyph is a sign, a type of writing. If we take it literally as it is now, Glyph Creation is another kind of Text Manipulation.
I think it should be splitted in multiple powers depending on each case or just tie it to platform creation if it is specifically used for it.

 

[Antvasima]

Saman makes sense to me.

 

[Agnaa]

I have seen glyph magic be used for other purposes than platforms within fiction though, such as force fields/barriers, so whoever updates the profile pages that link to it afterwards would have to check if each of the relevant characters are described to actually create platforms by using it.

I mean, the page as it is currently explicitly says not to do that. In this sorta case I'd rather put the onus on the profile creators for giving characters the wrong ability, rather than on us for needing to fix it up after the fact.

 

[Antvasima]

I definitely think that we need to do this properly, rather than sloppily, and remove the ability from all characters that are not stated to create platforms, as the name of the glyph creation ability easily makes it misunderstood in this regard.

 

[SamanPatou]

The problem comes from the fact that glyphs are often associated with arcane magic and stuff like that, just like hieroglyphs, runes and various symbols.
Personally, it should become either a subset of text manipulation for pure visual effects regarding how a character does something, or entirely scrap the name and just list it as platform creation for those specific characters that can create platforms.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Glyph Creation is more heavily related to the process of making platforms than making fancy magic symbols. If we're really classifying it as a vaguely related ability (still generally against this), Forcefield Creation is more relevant. That said, each page will likely need some analysis at the specifics of the profile if people biffed it and wrongly classified things. I'm happy to reclassify whatever pages I made with Glyph Creation (believe there are 4-5 or so) but every profile will probably need at least a cursory inspection.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that we were told previously that the ability has generally not been assigned for creating platforms, but for any type of glyph-related magic.