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Because abbreviations.
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GEOM V DOTE
- Thread starter The_real_cal_howard
- Start date
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Honestly? Death wins.
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- Thread starter
- #3
But this was a good way to make this match, huh? ovo
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Death is just more powerful.
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Matthew Schroeder said:
Care to elaborate? I don't doubt she is more powerful i just wanna hear why.
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Both.
The Endless are literally what make up all of the DCU reality, and what enable it to exist, each defining and embodying a core aspect of reality.
Death is all Life and Death, and as Death, she is the death of all things, including her fellow Endless. Even Destiny, who is so more powerful than any other Endless that he contains all of them alongside everything else inside his book. Even himself.
But Death can still kill him because she is the death of all things. Even thought she is supposed to be vastly weaker than him, and in fact contained by him.
Also Lucifer shows that the Endless aren't contained to a single Creation, as they have reach into Lucifer's and Elaine's multiverses as well.
The Endless are literally what make up all of the DCU reality, and what enable it to exist, each defining and embodying a core aspect of reality.
Death is all Life and Death, and as Death, she is the death of all things, including her fellow Endless. Even Destiny, who is so more powerful than any other Endless that he contains all of them alongside everything else inside his book. Even himself.
But Death can still kill him because she is the death of all things. Even thought she is supposed to be vastly weaker than him, and in fact contained by him.
Also Lucifer shows that the Endless aren't contained to a single Creation, as they have reach into Lucifer's and Elaine's multiverses as well.
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Yeah, hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the Endless are in the major leagues as far as High 1-B goes. They're among the strongest ones we have, and their "functions" make them practically unkillable.
Death in particular is a rare case that can actually erase beings with Mid/High-Godly regen IIRC.
She exists everywhere the concept of death itself exists, including 1-A/High 1-A realms which exist beyond dimensionality. (even though she can't actually "kill" any 1-A until the time in which they're fated to die, unless I'm mistaken) To kill her, you have to kill her in those realms as well as everywhere else within the multiverse and all of its dimensions.
And she was able to walk around in the Overvoid with no ill effects. Another High 1-B was erased just by falling into it, and said erasure was to the point that "the very idea of him" was gone.
As powerful as he is, God Emperor has no chance whatsoever.
Death in particular is a rare case that can actually erase beings with Mid/High-Godly regen IIRC.
She exists everywhere the concept of death itself exists, including 1-A/High 1-A realms which exist beyond dimensionality. (even though she can't actually "kill" any 1-A until the time in which they're fated to die, unless I'm mistaken) To kill her, you have to kill her in those realms as well as everywhere else within the multiverse and all of its dimensions.
And she was able to walk around in the Overvoid with no ill effects. Another High 1-B was erased just by falling into it, and said erasure was to the point that "the very idea of him" was gone.
As powerful as he is, God Emperor has no chance whatsoever.
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Death FRA assuming it isn't a stomp
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It might be, depending on how high or low God Emperor is on the High 1-B scale.
Part of why she only has one recorded victory is because almost all of her matches are considered stomps of the highest order. Even her match with PR Beyonder, despite not being a stomp per se, was extremely decisive in her favor.
So...yeah. What degree of High 1-B is GEoM?
Part of why she only has one recorded victory is because almost all of her matches are considered stomps of the highest order. Even her match with PR Beyonder, despite not being a stomp per se, was extremely decisive in her favor.
So...yeah. What degree of High 1-B is GEoM?
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I'm not sure how high he is compared to other Chaos Gods, I believe he's the second strongest.
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Hmm, I did a quick check on the Chaos Gods he scales to.
Each of said Gods:
"(Controls the Warp, which can only be navigated with a device that requires an infinitely larger amount of dimensions to operate. The Immaterium is an infinitely dimensional realm of thought and metaphor that is far above the combined knowledge and essence of the material universe, which already contains a myriad of higher dimensions so great that they 'cannot be defined by so limited a thing as human language'.)"
So he's strong enough to hold off four infinite-dimensional gods who control an infinite-dimensional realm.
Someone who knows more about Warhammer than I do should probably be the one to comment/elaborate on that, but at face value, that seems a bit lower than I expected.
Each of said Gods:
"(Controls the Warp, which can only be navigated with a device that requires an infinitely larger amount of dimensions to operate. The Immaterium is an infinitely dimensional realm of thought and metaphor that is far above the combined knowledge and essence of the material universe, which already contains a myriad of higher dimensions so great that they 'cannot be defined by so limited a thing as human language'.)"
So he's strong enough to hold off four infinite-dimensional gods who control an infinite-dimensional realm.
Someone who knows more about Warhammer than I do should probably be the one to comment/elaborate on that, but at face value, that seems a bit lower than I expected.
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That's basically what GEoM is like, really...i think. He's strong enough to hold back four other High 1-B's, which in hindsight or whatever word is best means he'd probably be able to beat one alone if it was 1v1.
That said, the way Death is compared to GEoM even at his best along with what Matthew said in detail means i'm going with the lady/entity that embodies all of...well Death.
That said, the way Death is compared to GEoM even at his best along with what Matthew said in detail means i'm going with the lady/entity that embodies all of...well Death.
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>not Death vs Ynnead
legit what
@MrKing
I have no idea the "exact" level of High 1-B they would be at, but I can try to elaborate, a little bit.
The "surface" of the Immaterium, what Magnus the Red often referred to as "the Great Ocean", is an infinitely-dimensional realm of thought and metaphor unbound by ideas of time and space as we think of them. This is the basic level where most Warp experiences take place, and the level that is perceived by countless different characters and beings in a countless number of ways. If we follow Magnus' ocean metaphor, this would be like the surface of the ocean, where one could ride the chaotic tides to places both known and unknown.
However, as I said, this is the "surface". Beyond that, there is a sort of "deep Warp" rarely brought up or experienced. A place where almost no one has any of their Warp experiences, as there is nothing to experience. Magnus gets a bit too curious and winds up in this area, at one point. This is the part of the Warp so deep, it isn't even described via thought and metaphor. It appears to be only an endless expanse of nothing so complex compared even to the "surface" that it seems entirely undimensioned and without any points of reference. Magnus just describes it as a lack of sensation and 'feeling' that could be mistaken for mind death. If the previous part of the Warp was the Great Ocean's surface, this would likely be approaching the portion of the ocean where no natural light reaches and things become alien beyond relatability.
We know there's something even beyond this as well, which appears to be a void in the truest sense, but that only applies to Ynnead and is currently rather vague.
legit what
@MrKing
I have no idea the "exact" level of High 1-B they would be at, but I can try to elaborate, a little bit.
The "surface" of the Immaterium, what Magnus the Red often referred to as "the Great Ocean", is an infinitely-dimensional realm of thought and metaphor unbound by ideas of time and space as we think of them. This is the basic level where most Warp experiences take place, and the level that is perceived by countless different characters and beings in a countless number of ways. If we follow Magnus' ocean metaphor, this would be like the surface of the ocean, where one could ride the chaotic tides to places both known and unknown.
However, as I said, this is the "surface". Beyond that, there is a sort of "deep Warp" rarely brought up or experienced. A place where almost no one has any of their Warp experiences, as there is nothing to experience. Magnus gets a bit too curious and winds up in this area, at one point. This is the part of the Warp so deep, it isn't even described via thought and metaphor. It appears to be only an endless expanse of nothing so complex compared even to the "surface" that it seems entirely undimensioned and without any points of reference. Magnus just describes it as a lack of sensation and 'feeling' that could be mistaken for mind death. If the previous part of the Warp was the Great Ocean's surface, this would likely be approaching the portion of the ocean where no natural light reaches and things become alien beyond relatability.
We know there's something even beyond this as well, which appears to be a void in the truest sense, but that only applies to Ynnead and is currently rather vague.
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Azzy wants a thematic match of both Death Gods.
Ah that sounds about right of the Red Mage says. But here comes Matt with something if he adds to that...
Ah that sounds about right of the Red Mage says. But here comes Matt with something if he adds to that...
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So, if I'm interpreting the above properly:
- The Warp is the "peak" of the higher-dimensional structure. (or something along those lines...)
- The main layer of the Warp (which most people who show up in it access) is effectively an endless ocean, with another deeper layer in which form, meaning, etc. do not exist and everything is nothingness.
- ^The Chaos Gods exist here and control this area.
- The God Emperor is strong enough to hold all four of them back.
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Mostly.
- The Warp is the entire realm. It can contain structures of infinite dimensions or only three, since these are arbitrary and decided by the titanic forces who call this realm home.
- The "surface" area of the Warp is an infinitely-dimensional realm of thought and metaphor unbound by traditional time and space.
- Deeper portions of the Warp are unfathomably more complex than this surface, and cannot be put into any sort of thought/metaphorical structure.
- The Chaos Gods are linked with and can control the Immaterium on a fundamental level.
- The Emperor's Warp essence can hold the four of them back.
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Well, I'm just gonna say right now that the two verses (DC and Warhammer) are way different in terms of their structure. But if I had to make a direct comparison, DC's closest equivalent to the "deeper" areas of the Warp would be the Monitor-Sphere. (See this guy's profile for a decent overview on that. It's the best thing you're going to get without actually reading Final Crisis in-full) If the Chaos Gods really are capable of controlling this type of realm on a "fundamental" level, then they and God Emperor are at the very least stronger than the Monitor race, Mandrakk (the strongest Monitor), the Thought Robot, and everyone else in that general area.
Thing is though, from what I remember, DC's cosmology jumps from those guys straight to Pralaya('s avatar), World Tree Swamp Thing and the Endless. All of those beings make the former three and their contemporaries look like kids with water pistols by comparison.
Make of all that what you will. I still don't really know were they'd stand as far as the tier goes. They still seem like they're a great deal below DotE, at any rate.
Correct me if I'm wrong about any of this, also.
Thing is though, from what I remember, DC's cosmology jumps from those guys straight to Pralaya('s avatar), World Tree Swamp Thing and the Endless. All of those beings make the former three and their contemporaries look like kids with water pistols by comparison.
Make of all that what you will. I still don't really know were they'd stand as far as the tier goes. They still seem like they're a great deal below DotE, at any rate.
Correct me if I'm wrong about any of this, also.
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Yeah, I read Final Crisis I N 3-D!, a while back.
I'd consider something like Ynnead to be far more fair if trying to make any sort of comparison to the highest-end Endless (Death, Destiny, etc.), as it's suggested to possibly exist in its totality beyond the Immaterium as we know it, its "stomach" has the capability of containing an entire realm similar to the Warp itself yet completely separate, and it can apparently "kill" something like Slaanesh, bypassing the inherent protection something like a high-end Warp God without the seemingly horrific side effects on the Materium.
The problem with Ynnead is that it's often kept playing outfield due to just how much something like this could change the setting if Games Workshop brought it up to bat, and thus is intentionally vague in an era where we've just started to get some things clarified about the Warp Gods.
I'd consider something like Ynnead to be far more fair if trying to make any sort of comparison to the highest-end Endless (Death, Destiny, etc.), as it's suggested to possibly exist in its totality beyond the Immaterium as we know it, its "stomach" has the capability of containing an entire realm similar to the Warp itself yet completely separate, and it can apparently "kill" something like Slaanesh, bypassing the inherent protection something like a high-end Warp God without the seemingly horrific side effects on the Materium.
The problem with Ynnead is that it's often kept playing outfield due to just how much something like this could change the setting if Games Workshop brought it up to bat, and thus is intentionally vague in an era where we've just started to get some things clarified about the Warp Gods.
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Yeah, if Ynnead is that powerful, then it's probably the main one who would be capable of contending with the strongest DC High 1-Bs. The rest are better off fighting something else.
Though again, actually "killing" Death and Destiny is so stupidly impossible for another High 1-B to do that you might as well be throwing shoes at them, so in those two cases it'd probably just stalemate them at most.
High 1-B Warhammer in general (outside of Ynnead and whatever else might be near that level) may have better luck with Marvel's High 1-Bs than DC's. The Grant Morrison cosmics seem too low on the food chain, and the Vertigo ones are just ridiculous.
Though again, actually "killing" Death and Destiny is so stupidly impossible for another High 1-B to do that you might as well be throwing shoes at them, so in those two cases it'd probably just stalemate them at most.
High 1-B Warhammer in general (outside of Ynnead and whatever else might be near that level) may have better luck with Marvel's High 1-Bs than DC's. The Grant Morrison cosmics seem too low on the food chain, and the Vertigo ones are just ridiculous.
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Killing Death is hard(that is an understatement)
Her type 8 immortality isn't just limited to the Creation of the Presence but also reliant on the Creations in the Void.
The Void is dimensionless and time doesn't matter there, that's why Lucifer said that it doesn't matter if this Creation came before or after the Presence's Creation, because in the Void all Creations exist simultaneously it doesn't matter if it's in the past or future, all are equally real in the Void
This also applies to the Endless, time doesn't really matter to them.All "viewpoints" of the endless can exist at the same time and if GEOM fights this "viewpoint" of Death and somehow he manages to kill her it won't matter as long as the concept of Death and Life still exists.There's still a Death somewhere or sometime and that personification is just going to be replaced by another (remember all viewpoints of Death of the Endless are real, there's even a Dream from before the universe exist )
To kill Death you need to erase life and death across the Void, a high 1-A entity and is a realm that is also infinite even to 1-As like Lucifer and where Creations constantly rise and fall.Death was also shown to survive the end of the multiverse and she will just lock behind everything behind her, so even if everything in DC is dead even Destiny she is still alive
As for power, a book made from the shadow of the shadow of the knowledge in Destinys book was said to be capable of rending the entire DC Creation to shreds and Death should be significantly more powerful than it
Her type 8 immortality isn't just limited to the Creation of the Presence but also reliant on the Creations in the Void.
The Void is dimensionless and time doesn't matter there, that's why Lucifer said that it doesn't matter if this Creation came before or after the Presence's Creation, because in the Void all Creations exist simultaneously it doesn't matter if it's in the past or future, all are equally real in the Void
This also applies to the Endless, time doesn't really matter to them.All "viewpoints" of the endless can exist at the same time and if GEOM fights this "viewpoint" of Death and somehow he manages to kill her it won't matter as long as the concept of Death and Life still exists.There's still a Death somewhere or sometime and that personification is just going to be replaced by another (remember all viewpoints of Death of the Endless are real, there's even a Dream from before the universe exist )
To kill Death you need to erase life and death across the Void, a high 1-A entity and is a realm that is also infinite even to 1-As like Lucifer and where Creations constantly rise and fall.Death was also shown to survive the end of the multiverse and she will just lock behind everything behind her, so even if everything in DC is dead even Destiny she is still alive
As for power, a book made from the shadow of the shadow of the knowledge in Destinys book was said to be capable of rending the entire DC Creation to shreds and Death should be significantly more powerful than it
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DOTE is very similar to Grandfather Nurgle but she has higher range, but it is debatable:Matthew Schroeder said:
Chaos Gods always existed and never existed. The Warp itself is dimensionless but Chaos Gods are High 1-Bs just because they have their own limits.
All in all I think it is a draw.
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