Genshin Impact General Discussion!

[Pikaman]

It 100% is, as it shows that animations don't have to reflect what is actually happening. This means it is on you to prove your claim is correct, as I have given evidence that it can not be a default assumption.

You wanna talk about the accuracy of game descriptions? Let’s talk about the accuracy of game descriptions

“The Waster Greatsword can break mountains with enough willpower” a feat you argued against

You also argued against the pocket dimension feats the Adepti have

I struggle to take your arguments around game statements seriously when you’ve argued against them in the past when it didn’t suit you

The burden of proof is on you to prove the current wiki page is wrong and that we should only take certain statements from the game as accurate, and that’s gonna be a tricky one

 

[Arkenis]

“The Waster Greatsword can break mountains with enough willpower” a feat you argued against

I’ve actually been wondering if this can scale to anyone. Does it have an original wielder or any more lore?

 

[Pikaman]

I’ve actually been wondering if this can scale to anyone. Does it have an original wielder or any more lore?

I’m pretty sure it was already discussed before I got involved here properly but honestly considering the only requirement is willpower, something all user visions have in spades, you’d think they’d all be capable of it. Though idk if splitting/breaking a character is actually Mountain Level, so it might only be an upgrade for the lower tiers, which might be getting one soon anyways

 

[Arkenis]

I’m pretty sure it was already discussed before I got involved here properly but honestly considering the only requirement is willpower, something all user visions have in spades, you’d think they’d all be capable of it. Though idk if splitting/breaking a character is actually Mountain Level, so it might only be an upgrade for the lower tiers, which might be getting one soon anyways

Well cracking a mountain it probably in the town level ranges if I had to guess.

 

[Arkenis]

There's something else I wanted to point out is that Dragonspine mountain climate is in the sub zeros, so characters should also get a resistance to extreme cold since they can withstand it as can the mages and the Hilichurls and those random guys with the guns

 

[Wdinatx]

There's something else I wanted to point out is that Dragonspine mountain climate is in the sub zeros, so characters should also get a resistance to extreme cold since they can withstand it as can the mages and the Hilichurls and those random guys with the guns

Only the ones that have been shown to be fine in their character stories have it but now that you mention it here I agree that it should be added to at least Hilichurls, Bennett, and the Traveler's pages because of them living there and what happened in the event respectively.

 

[RatherClueless]

You wanna talk about the accuracy of game descriptions? Let’s talk about the accuracy of game descriptions

“The Waster Greatsword can break mountains with enough willpower” a feat you argued against

You also argued against the pocket dimension feats the Adepti have

I struggle to take your arguments around game statements seriously when you’ve argued against them in the past when it didn’t suit you

The burden of proof is on you to prove the current wiki page is wrong and that we should only take certain statements from the game as accurate, and that’s gonna be a tricky one

Oh boy, where do I even start.

You say that us taking only certain statements from the game as accurate is tricky? Then you should have no issue with taking statements such as Ayaka's or Sucrose's? Then you should agree that the visuals are inaccurate, yes?

Seriously though. Us only taking certain statements as accurate is common practice. I aslo didn't just say "oh, we can't use that because I don't like it". I explained each and every one of them.

Now let's, just for the sake of it, say that you are right and they turn into their respective element. Why would that grant elemental intangibility? Simply turning into an element isn't enough. You also need evidence that they can then regenerate.

 

[Arkenis]

Wouldn’t them turning into their respective element be more transmutation? Though iirc we do agree the slimes have elemental intang no?

 

[RatherClueless]

Wouldn’t them turning into their respective element be more transmutation? Though iirc we do agree the slimes have elemental intang no?

why would they? Is there a statement about that? Last I checked you can kill them by smacking them, no?

 

[Arkenis]

why would they? Is there a statement about that? Last I checked you can kill them by smacking them, no?

I don‘t know the argument.

 

[Pikaman]

You say that us taking only certain statements from the game as accurate is tricky? Then you should have no issue with taking statements such as Ayaka's or Sucrose's? Then you should agree that the visuals are inaccurate, yes?

I can flip this around. “so you agree that the Greatsword and Adepti feats aren’t accurate? So you agree that the statements are inaccurate and/or inconsistent?”

They’re no better than gameplay visuals and we’d be making ridiculous revisions if we treated game descriptions as any more accurate a source as what we physically see by your own arguments when other feats were mentioned. Where’s the proof one is more trustworthy than the other anyways?

why would they? Is there a statement about that? Last I checked you can kill them by smacking them, no?

You’d need to check with other people, elements being treated as Non Physcial pre-dates my appearance on the forum and wiki. I can only assume it has something to do with pure elemental spirits/beings such a Seelie maybe? Also, NPI exists, so smacking them around isn’t really a counter-arguement as the weapons of the verse could very easily have that.

 

[Arkenis]

I think the weapons lore feats should generally be taken as fact. There are certain statements like one of the swords cutting so good it seems to cut through reality that obviously isn’t to be taken literal.

 

[Pikaman]

Also, why do characters like Barbara have human level durability when Klee has survived her own bombs, which are 7-B or higher? I get it involved luck and lots of it but surely other characters could theoretically survive similar blasts?

 

[Pikaman]

I think the weapons lore feats should generally be taken as fact. There are certain statements like one of the swords cutting so good it seems to cut through reality that obviously isn’t to be taken literal.

I agree some statements are clearly hyperbole, which is why I think using them is no better than in game visuals

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Also, why do characters like Barbara have human level durability when Klee has survived her own bombs, which are 7-B or higher? I get it involved luck and lots of it but surely other characters could theoretically survive similar blasts?

Do we ever get a comparison of Klee's durability compared to other characters? Her physical strength doesn't scale to her durability which makes it harder to just argue that other characters should scale due to being stronger than small children and if we can't find evidence of her durability being normal or at least not being that exceptional, then other characters can't simply be scaled to her. Barbara's comparatively low rating for her durability without forcefields is presumably due to a lack of feats and statements that would allow for scaling though there is a possibility of something like that showing up in the future and maybe someone can find something for her scaling.

 

[Arkenis]

I agree some statements are clearly hyperbole, which is why I think using them is no better than in game visuals

Eh yeah sure the plunge attacks though are pretty clearly them changing into the element or into the elemental energy

 

[Pikaman]

Does anybody actually know why turning into the element is intangibility though? I’m curious

 

[Arkenis]

Well if someone’s made out of energy then only energy could interact with them.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Does anybody actually know why turning into the element is intangibility though? I’m curious

Presumably because there aren't any vital organs to damage with a mass made out of a substance. Unless the mass is one solid object instead of energy or a conglomeration of small particles cutting, piercing or striking attacks aren't going to do any relevant damage, so if someone can transform themselves into a mass like that, then they are effectively intangible. That's at least how I understand it.

 

[Wdinatx]

Presumably because there aren't any vital organs to damage with a mass made out of a substance. Unless the mass is one solid object instead of energy or a conglomeration of small particles cutting, piercing or striking attacks aren't going to do any relevant damage, so if someone can transform themselves into a mass like that, then they are effectively intangible. That's at least how I understand it.

Sometimes said intangibility is overhyped but I think this is it.

 

[RatherClueless]

They’re no better than gameplay visuals and we’d be making ridiculous revisions if we treated game descriptions as any more accurate a source as what we physically see by your own arguments when other feats were mentioned. Where’s the proof one is more trustworthy than the other anyways?

Yes they are. By a long shot. If this was a cutscene, you might have a point. Not for gameplay though. Where is the proof? The fact that a boss has different movesets than their playable counterpart. The fact that characters in cutscenes fight differently than in gameplay. The fact that it is inconsistent with the manga (see Kaeya using a sword made of ice). Using animations limited by viability within a game, rather than their description is fairly absurd tbh. In the case of Sucrose they even went out of their way to specifically add that. All the other catalyst users (with only few exceptions) have the exact same description.

"Gathering the might of Geo, Ningguang plunges towards the ground from mid-air"
"Gathering the might of Hydro, Mona plunges towards the ground from mid-air"
"Gathering the might of Electro, Lisa plunges towards the ground from mid-air"
"Gathering the might of Hydro, Barbara plunges towards the ground from mid-air"
"Gathering the power of Pyro, Klee plunges towards the ground from mid-air"
"Gathering the might of Hydro, Kokomi plunges towards the ground from mid-air"

The other two that dont quite fit are:

"Gathering the power of Pyro, Yanfei plunges towards the ground from mid-air"
"Plunges towards the ground from mid-air, damaging all opponents in her path with thunderous might." (Yae Miko)

So yeah, they probably put that there by accident.

We have statements that they cover themselves in their element and we have cutscenes where we see them doing it. We have statements contradicting gameplay. We have the manga contradicting gameplay. We have gameplay contradicting gameplay.

This isn't even mentioning that we treat gameplay as very iffy to begin with. While not unusable, it certainly doesn't take presedence over [insert basically anything else]

 

[Nehz_XZX]

We have gameplay contradicting gameplay.

We have gameplay contradicting gameplay?

 

[Pikaman]

We have gameplay contradicting gameplay?

what’s your take on it all, I strongly believe elemental intangibility should stay but it’s obviously down to staff/the community

 

[Nehz_XZX]

what’s your take on it all, I strongly believe elemental intangibility should stay but it’s obviously down to staff/the community

Something like that requires the evaluation of evidence and I think I'd need to look up some things.

 

[RatherClueless]

when Klee has survived her own bombs, which are 7-B or higher?

She never survived a 7-B bomb tho. She survived a bomb at an unknown disatnce before she got her vision. Even if we assume she hugged it and assume she literally turned the entire building into ashes, that's tier 8 at best. And that's quite the assumption tbh, since we know that later even more potent bombs don't have that kind of range.

 

[Pikaman]

She never survived a 7-B bomb tho. She survived a bomb at an unknown disatnce before she got her vision. Even if we assume she hugged it and assume she literally turned the entire building into ashes, that's tier 8 at best. And that's quite the assumption tbh, since we know that later even more potent bombs don't have that kind of range.

Her durability is literally 7-B for surviving her own bombs

 

[Pikaman]

Actually, all this talk about feats and scaling and whatnot has me curious, if you were the sole decider of all things Genshin on this wiki, what tier would everyone be and how would your scaling work?

 

[Nehz_XZX]

She never survived a 7-B bomb tho. She survived a bomb at an unknown disatnce before she got her vision. Even if we assume she hugged it and assume she literally turned the entire building into ashes, that's tier 8 at best. And that's quite the assumption tbh, since we know that later even more potent bombs don't have that kind of range.

Klee's profile appears to operate on the premise that she is generally capable of withstanding her own bombs.

Her durability is literally 7-B for surviving her own bombs

I think it would be better if you bring up other instances of her withstanding her own bombs other than what happened in her workshop during the event that got her her Vision if you want to make a convincing case.

 

[Pikaman]

Klee's profile appears to operate on the premise that she is generally capable of withstanding her own bombs.


I think it would be better if you bring up other instances of her withstanding her own bombs other than what happened in her workshop during the event that got her her Vision if you want to make a convincing case.

Eh, my question got answered, don’t see the point of arguing about something resolved

 

[RatherClueless]

We have gameplay contradicting gameplay?

Like I said. Character movesets from sth like bosses don't line up with the actual character you can play. For obvious reasons.

 

[RatherClueless]

Klee's profile appears to operate on the premise that she is generally capable of withstanding her own bombs.

I know. Just pointing out that it's wrong.

 

[Pikaman]

Actually, all this talk about feats and scaling and whatnot has me curious, if you were the sole decider of all things Genshin on this wiki, what tier would everyone be and how would your scaling work?

I’ll start

I think all the low tiers are probably due a 7-B upgrade, which is being worked on atm

I think the Archons will get higher tiers in the future, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see the Traveler at their full potential and the Unknown God being anywhere from 5-B to 2-C depending on how the lore expands

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Like I said. Character movesets from sth like bosses don't line up with the actual character you can play. For obvious reasons.

I guess you are referring to Tartaglia and the Raiden Shogun? Given the inherent limitations of the movesets you can access with the playable characters with the way the gameplay works I don't think that this means that the lack of transformations and or the possibility to use something like the Vision Hunt Decree can be considered evidence for their gameplay as playable characters being something that can't be used to infer things they are capable of. It can be used as evidence that their movesets as playable characters aren't everything they are canonically capable of as characters of the story though.

I know. Just pointing out that it's wrong.

Okay, this could indeed mean that it is wrong or lacking some crucial details in its justification.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Guys shouldn’t raiden shogun have two keys

one for the puppet and one for Ei

since they are two different people

since the shogun and Ei are under two tabs

 

[RatherClueless]

Actually, all this talk about feats and scaling and whatnot has me curious, if you were the sole decider of all things Genshin on this wiki, what tier would everyone be and how would your scaling work?

mid to high tier 8 for most characters. idk where I'd put archons. Not because I dont believe that they are tier 6, but because all of the current calcs putting them there being factually wrong or vastly exaggerated. So probably 7-A or so.

We have blatant statements as to how strong the traveler is by Albedo

"But that would mean that Paimon's elemental power would be enough to break through mountain rock at least ten meters thick. Or cause the waterfall south of Springvale to flow backwards."

I also disagree with things like Klee's scaling. Her bombs dont have any tier 7 feats and specifically need to be placed in strategic places to cause cliffs to crumble. Same goes for Alice.

Characters like Beidou made it very clear that statements such as "she can split mountains" are absurd and untrue.

We have several scenes showing that they aren't as fast as the profiles claim either.

There is honestly a lot wrong with the current stats and profiles and scaling.

 

[Pikaman]

mid to high tier 8 for most characters. idk where I'd put archons. Not because I dont believe that they are tier 6, but because all of the current calcs putting them there being factually wrong or vastly exaggerated. So probably 7-A or so.

We have blatant statements as to how strong the traveler is by Albedo

"But that would mean that Paimon's elemental power would be enough to break through mountain rock at least ten meters thick. Or cause the waterfall south of Springvale to flow backwards."

I also disagree with things like Klee's scaling. Her bombs dont have any tier 7 feats and specifically need to be placed in strategic places to cause cliffs to crumble. Same goes for Alice.

Characters like Beidou made it very clear that statements such as "she can split mountains" are absurd and untrue.

We have several scenes showing that they aren't as fast as the profiles claim either.

There is honestly a lot wrong with the current stats and profiles and scaling.

I got the feeling you thought Genshin was a bit overrated right now lol, fair enough

 

[Pikaman]

I gotta ask though, why not make a CRT to revolutionise the verse in the way you say it needs?

I’m just asking out of curiosity, I’ve only been here a few months and I’m curious about people’s thoughts about the verse in general

 

[RatherClueless]

It can be used as evidence that their movesets as playable characters aren't everything they are canonically capable of as characters of the story though.

While Childe is still fairly close, Raidens moveset is vastly different and so is Ei's. And thats from a company that loves to just recycle stuff over and over again. Ei not having permanently infused attacks like she does in her fights is just silly

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Guys shouldn’t raiden shogun have two keys

one for the puppet and one for Ei

since they are two different people

since the shogun and Ei are under two tabs

That depends on whether or not there is a relevant difference in power. If the relevant differences can be summed up as being a matter of differing abilities and powers, than two tabs should be enough for the sake of accuracy.

"But that would mean that Paimon's elemental power would be enough to break through mountain rock at least ten meters thick. Or cause the waterfall south of Springvale to flow backwards."

I also disagree with things like Klee's scaling. Her bombs dont have any tier 7 feats and specifically need to be placed in strategic places to cause cliffs to crumble. Same goes for Alice.

That statement doesn't exactly give an upper limit, it is merely a conclusion of it being enough for certain feats. In the first place, it's speculation about the level of power Paimon would need for guiding elemental power to the Traveler and is used as a reason for why that can't be the case.

Do you have sources for strategic places being needed?

Raidens moveset is vastly different and so is Ei's. And thats from a company that loves to just recycle stuff over and over again. Ei not having permanently infused attacks like she does in her fights is just silly

That sounds like a restriction that is there to prevent her from being too overpowered as a playable character. It isn't a change that outright changes the nature of one of her attacks or moves.

 

[RatherClueless]

I gotta ask though, why not make a CRT to revolutionise the verse in the way you say it needs?

I’m just asking out of curiosity, I’ve only been here a few months and I’m curious about people’s thoughts about the verse in general

Coz ppl blatantly ignore most issues, throw fallacies around, say that I am using semantics when I just "that is not what it says" and in general insert headcanon almost everywhere the go.