Genshin CRT 2: Electric Boogaloo (Shenhe Profile + Xiao and God Tier Upgrades)

[Pikaman]

A continuation of the previous thread

So it looks like we finally have a decent proposition on Shenhe, and this CRT is also gonna propose some minor upgrades for the God Tiers and Xiao

Shenhe Tiering:

This calc has Shenhe at 7-A, and then (with some adjustments, lower tier, taking it off of male characters etc.) adding this profile to the wiki.

Xiao Upgrades:
Xiao should scale enough above Beidou enough that he should be “High 7-A, likely higher.” Also, we should look at Beidou’s profile, since it uses an outdated Venti Calc as it’s justification for her tiering.

God Tier Upgrades:
There really isn’t that much to justify Raiden Shogun being higher tiered than the other Archons or even the other God Tier characters, so I suggest we upgrade prime Barbatos and Prime Zhongli at a minimum and the entire Genshin God Tier (bar Raiden Shogun obviously) at maximum to “6-C, likely higher”

 

[Pikaman]

Forgot the calc link

added it now

 

[Wdinatx]

I agree that Raiden is far too buffed on here. Honestly my fault due to in action as I allowed these edits made by @Solacis (pinged so they can make their case) that absolutely remove any sort of distinction between Ei and the Shogun for no apparent reason. It's to the point where the "anti-shogun training" not being a perfect replica of Ei's techniques is a feat.

I'm currently cursing myself for my cowardice on all this and not pointing out Umineko alternate personalities (and just real life) as precedent.

P.S. Here is my folly for all to see.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

So going from previous post. What are we suppose to do with venti calc.

Xiao is Already High 7-A himself and so is Beidou

And i thought prime barbatos and Zhongli is already 6-C.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

So going from previous post. What are we suppose to do with venti calc.

Xiao is Already High 7-A himself and so is Beidou

And i thought prime barbatos and Zhongli is already 6-C.

It's about adding "likely higher" to the ratings.

Edit: Wait, why are we adding "likely higher" to the God Tiers when Ei doesn't have a "likely higher" but instead an "at least"?

 

[Pikaman]

It's about adding "likely higher" to the ratings.

Edit: Wait, why are we adding "likely higher" to the God Tiers when Ei doesn't have a "likely higher" but instead an "at least"?

Ei is “At least 6-C, High 6-C with the Musou no Hitotachi.” I thought “Potentially Higher” might be better suiting because Ei is technically the only one with firm solid justification for high 6-C, the other God Tiers probably scale to it, but the lack of guarantee makes “potentially” or maybe “likely” better than outright “High 6-C”

OR you could divide archons and non-archons, giving Venti and Zhongli “Likely Higher” and the other God Tiers “Possibly Higher” (Azhdaha is an exception as he directly scales to Zhongli and would likely also be “Likely Higher”)

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I honestly don't know the purpose of this crt, like, Geo Archon Zhongli already have an 'at least' like Raiden Shogun, the purpose is give him an 'at least' in the Adeptus key? Because we know that after lost the Gnosis Zhongli is far weaker so there is no reason to give him an 'at least' since there is nothing to imply that he would scale far above his current rating. Or the objetive is give Prime Barbatos an 'at least'? Because iirc he said when still having the Gnosis that he was by far the weakest Archon so I don't know if he have enough reason to get that.

I guess give Xiao an 'at least' is fine maybe? I mean, sure he is an Adeptus and Adeptus are above humans, but isn't like there is no human at their level, Ningguang, Keqing and such have showed to be comparable to them and currently the Adeptus Tier is accepted as 7-B, Xiao as the strongest Adeptus is the exception scaling to High 7-A because of 'only be impressed by' the feat of Beidou, which I don't know if is enough reason to justify him scaling far above her since he still was impressed. In the end I guess it could be fine give him the 'at least' since the gap for the next tier in High 7-A is really small, though I feel is a bit unnecesary.

 

[Pikaman]

I honestly don't know the purpose of this crt, like, Geo Archon Zhongli already have an 'at least' like Raiden Shogun

Yeah but that’s all, “At least 6-C, likely High 6-C,” or something along those lines is more definitive.

Or the objetive is give Prime Barbatos an 'at least'? Because iirc he said when still having the Gnosis that he was by far the weakest Archon so I don't know if he have enough reason to get that.

In that same dialogue he explains that an Archon’s power is derived from their fulfilment of the role of leading their nation’s people. Venti had just dipped for a few thousand years, and had not at all fulfilled his duty, which is what made him weak. You cannot compare Prime Barbatos to the Venti we see, not only because Prime Barbatos clearly would have had more rule over Mondstat, helping reform the city after Decabrian fell, but also because of the massive anti-feat of being stomped by a 7-B La Signora, yes he was ambushed but he clearly struggles to break free of her ice, implying her power exceeded his.

Xiao as the strongest Adeptus is the exception scaling to High 7-A because of 'only be impressed by' the feat of Beidou, which I don't know if is enough reason to justify him scaling far above her since he still was impressed.

Being impressed is relative. A baby lifting a 50lbs dumbbell is ridiculously impressive, any normal person would be astounded, but it doesn’t mean the baby has greater lifting strength than most. Xiao is impressed by Beidou’s feat because she did what she did despite being human. He, as one of the strongest of the Adepti, really doesn’t belong definitively in the same tier as someone like Beidou. He’d be closer to Adepti Zhonghli than Beidou. Granted, without any calcs to back it up, the best we can manage is “likely higher” or “at least High 7-A”

In the end I guess it could be fine give him the 'at least' since the gap for the next tier in High 7-A is really small, though I feel is a bit unnecesary.

Why is it unnecessary? It draws a clear line between humans and the strongest of the adepti, while giving an upgrade that Xiao has deserved for quite some time now IMO.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Yeah but that’s all, “At least 6-C, likely High 6-C,” or something along those lines is more definitive.

Problem, there is nothing that justify a likely High 6-C, the rest of Anchors don't have feats of that level or interactions like 'X battled equally with Shogun Raiden and X also fought equally with Zhongly or Barbatos', I personally can understand the argument that they probably aren't so much weaker than Shogun Raiden but we can't use just personal feelings, we need solid reasons to justify them scaling to the strongest technique of another Archon, currently I don't think there are enough proofs to justify even a possibly rating, or at least I don't think they have been brought.

In that same dialogue he explains that an Archon’s power is derived from their fulfilment of the role of leading their nation’s people. Venti had just dipped for a few thousand years, and had not at all fulfilled his duty, which is what made him weak. You cannot compare Prime Barbatos to the Venti we see, not only because Prime Barbatos clearly would have had more rule over Mondstat, helping reform the city after Decabrian fell, but also because of the massive anti-feat of being stomped by a 7-B La Signora, yes he was ambushed but he clearly struggles to break free of her ice, implying her power exceeded his.

Want to hear the opinion of others about this since I'm kinda dubious of some points.

Being impressed is relative. A baby lifting a 50lbs dumbbell is ridiculously impressive, any normal person would be astounded, but it doesn’t mean the baby has greater lifting strength than most. Xiao is impressed by Beidou’s feat because she did what she did despite being human. He, as one of the strongest of the Adepti, really doesn’t belong definitively in the same tier as someone like Beidou. He’d be closer to Adepti Zhonghli than Beidou. Granted, without any calcs to back it up, the best we can manage is “likely higher” or “at least High 7-A”

Why is it unnecessary? It draws a clear line between humans and the strongest of the adepti, while giving an upgrade that Xiao has deserved for quite some time now IMO.

Proof that using thís example Beidou is only lifting the equivalent of 50lbs and that Xiao can lift much more than her?

Is kinda unnecesary because we don't really know if humans can't reach the level of the strongest adeptis or how much powerful the strongest adepti is supposed to be compared with the peak of humanity/Vision users, I mean, to begin with Ningguang and Keqing fought as equals of them against Osial and Xiao didn't do significantly more than the rest of them in the fight or was even the most important combatant in the moment.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Ei is “At least 6-C, High 6-C with the Musou no Hitotachi.” I thought “Potentially Higher” might be better suiting because Ei is technically the only one with firm solid justification for high 6-C, the other God Tiers probably scale to it, but the lack of guarantee makes “potentially” or maybe “likely” better than outright “High 6-C”

OR you could divide archons and non-archons, giving Venti and Zhongli “Likely Higher” and the other God Tiers “Possibly Higher” (Azhdaha is an exception as he directly scales to Zhongli and would likely also be “Likely Higher”)

Ei is only High 6-C with one specific technique, so I wouldn't outright scale the other gods to that. If we did scale them like that, we'd need to ask the question why Ei's base is weaker than the other gods who don't have a technique like that.

Is kinda unnecesary because we don't really know if humans can't reach the level of the strongest adeptis or how much powerful the strongest adepti is supposed to be compared with the peak of humanity/Vision users, I mean, to begin with Ningguang and Keqing fought as equals of them against Osial and Xiao didn't do significantly more than the rest of them in the fight or was even the most important combatant in the moment.

The adepti were quite important in that battle since they used the Guizhong Ballistas, gave the Traveler some power ups and saved those who fell off the destroyed platform. The adepti are also generally regarded as quite powerful by the population of Liyue, so I'm pretty sure that they are quite powerful even by the standards of Vision users. According to Xiao's character stories he is constantly fighting against forces that could devour Liyue in its entirety with said forces being the remnants of the defeated gods from the Archon Wars which held immense power and he's been doing this for millennia. Regardless of whether or not Xiao scales above Beidou he definitely doesn't scale below her.

 

[Pikaman]

Ei is only High 6-C with one specific technique, so I wouldn't outright scale the other gods to that.

I think it’s fair to scale the other Gods (particularity the archons) to Ei since they all have similar in-lore feats to her slaying of Orobashi.


-Venti led a successful revolution against and was deemed a worthy successor by Prime Andrius of Decabrian, who at the time was Mond’s archon. Orobaxi never managed that title, only ruling over Enkanomiya and/or watsatsumi island. Big areas, but not compared to the entire countries that the archons lead.

-Zhonghli is the oldest remaining archon, implying he had to withstand the archon war for the longest time between the 7. He has also had regular bouts where he reigned victorious against Gods like Osial, who threatened all of Liyue.

I’m happy to drop Andrius at this point, but the archons (+Azhdaha) all have genuinely decent reasons to scale to Ei’s big feat.

For the “stronger than Ei’s base form” argument;

1. Why is the Musuo no Hititachi listed as a separate technique with its own tier on her profile? It’s one of her standard moves she has permanent access to. Why is she not just High 6-C?

2.This is where small changes like giving Prime Barbatos “At least 6-C” could help. There’s no definite outright proof, but it’s fair to assume that he could posses a similar trick up his sleeve. “At least 6-C” states that while Barbatos cannot definitely scale to the Musuo no Hitotachi, there is a chance he can potentially reach that power thanks to their shared title as Archons. It acknowledges the potential, without making any promises. I think that sounds fair

3. The entire God Tier could be getting re-vamped soon cause of this so it might be better to look at Shenhe’s profile mainly for this CRT

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I honestly have no idea what even the purpose of this thread

 

[Pikaman]

I honestly have no idea what even the purpose of this thread

If people think the God Tier and Xiao minor upgrades are pointless, at the very least this CRT should be used for getting approval of the Shenhe calc and her profile

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Shenhe profile is almost finished as well so that make this thread more pointless

 

[Pikaman]

Shenhe profile is almost finished as well so that make this thread more pointless

It’s about getting approval for a pivotal calc for the profile??? The profile is nearly almost done, this CRT is just wrapping things up, getting approval for necessary calcs in a CRT, and (although I think this part is out of the window at this point) giving small upgrades to Xiao and/or the Archons

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

See? This is where i really don't get thread or i'm a freaking idiot who suffered brain damage due of watching too much Max0r videos

 

[Pikaman]

See? This is where i really don't get thread or i'm a freaking idiot who suffered brain damage due of watching too much Max0r videos

Basically the idea is Shenhe is 7-A based on this calc, which hasn’t gone through the CRT approval process yet. So we just need approval on that and a lack of objections for anything else on the profile and then we’re good to go

And then we prob need to make ANOTHER thread to discuss a potential change to how we scale the Genshin map using this

 

[Pikaman]

Basically the idea is Shenhe is 7-A based on this calc, which hasn’t gone through the CRT approval process yet. So we just need approval on that and a lack of objections for anything else on the profile and then we’re good to go

And then we prob need to make ANOTHER thread to discuss a potential change to how we scale the Genshin map using this

I think at this point nobody agrees or sees the point of my Xiao, Prime Barbatos, Geo Archon Zhongli OR Azhdaha upgrades so I might as well drop those

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

And then we prob need to make ANOTHER thread to discuss a potential change to how we scale the Genshin map using this

No time to accessing it so what is it?

 

[Pikaman]

No time to accessing it so what is it?

It’s a paper that discusses the potential of a consistent scale between the in game nav’s distances and the actual, in lore distances.

It estimates that the scale between in game distance and actual lore distance (the one we would use the calcs) is 1:158

 

[Pikaman]

It’s a paper that discusses the potential of a consistent scale between the in game nav’s distances and the actual, in lore distances.

It estimates that the scale between in game distance and actual lore distance (the one we would use the calcs) is 1:158

It’s the scaling system used for the Shenhe calc, so it might actually be better to appraise it in this thread given Shenhe’s tiering relies on it being used

If it was accepted that would kick off the process of re-calcing most of Genshin’s biggest calcs that currently go off of a km/px = 3.725 ratio

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I think it’s fair to scale the other Gods (particularity the archons) to Ei since they all have similar in-lore feats to her slaying of Orobashi.


-Venti led a successful revolution against and was deemed a worthy successor by Prime Andrius of Decabrian, who at the time was Mond’s archon. Orobaxi never managed that title, only ruling over Enkanomiya and/or watsatsumi island. Big areas, but not compared to the entire countries that the archons lead.

-Zhonghli is the oldest remaining archon, implying he had to withstand the archon war for the longest time between the 7. He has also had regular bouts where he reigned victorious against Gods like Osial, who threatened all of Liyue.

I’m happy to drop Andrius at this point, but the archons (+Azhdaha) all have genuinely decent reasons to scale to Ei’s big feat.

For the “stronger than Ei’s base form” argument;

1. Why is the Musuo no Hititachi listed as a separate technique with its own tier on her profile? It’s one of her standard moves she has permanent access to. Why is she not just High 6-C?

2.This is where small changes like giving Prime Barbatos “At least 6-C” could help. There’s no definite outright proof, but it’s fair to assume that he could posses a similar trick up his sleeve. “At least 6-C” states that while Barbatos cannot definitely scale to the Musuo no Hitotachi, there is a chance he can potentially reach that power thanks to their shared title as Archons. It acknowledges the potential, without making any promises. I think that sounds fair

3. The entire God Tier could be getting re-vamped soon cause of this so it might be better to look at Shenhe’s profile mainly for this CRT

Orobaxi was slayed in a single strike with the Musou no Hitotachi, so Orobaxi and by extension beings with a similar level of power can't be scaled to it.

1. Probably because Ei is stronger with the Musou no Hitotachi than she is without it and she doesn't use it all the time either, so it's worth it to make a differentiation here for indexing purposes.

2. In my opinion "At least 6-C" would merely put Prime Barbatos on the same level as Base Ei since that is the exact same rating she has for her base. It's fair to say though that Venti was already at 6-C before getting his Gnosis due to defeating the previous Anemo Archon and got boosted beyond that through the Gnosis and for Zhongli the Gnosis made him so much stronger that defeating Osial wouldn't have been a problem for him.

 

[Naito-desu]

Anyway, while I probably won't engage in this, I will say that the Shenhe 7-A calc has been accepted. I'll work on a distance calculator to set our standard for distance scaling in the game.

 

[Pikaman]

I'll work on a distance calculator to set our standard for distance scaling in the game.

Great! Could you post a link to that here when it’s ready?

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Oh and btw: https://vsbattles.com/threads/ningguang-beisht-shenhe-and-osial-scaling.132017/

 

[Rune_Katashima]

I mean, to begin with Ningguang and Keqing fought as equals of them against Osial and Xiao didn't do significantly more than the rest of them in the fight or was even the most important combatant in the moment.

Xiao was an adeptus. He intentionally didn't interfere. That was part of the bargain. He only joined to save us from falling to our death. All of the adepti did not join the fight. Xiao later stated he was confident if Beisht (Osial's wife) was going to destroy Liyue, that he could take her. A lot of people miss this because it's not required to talk to him and he stands a bit away from a quest point. But if you see him you can go talk to him and that's almost verbatim what he says. Beisht was treated like an equal threat as Osial and frankly the whole thing was Osial 2.0 with the adepti showing up again but just spectating and Ningguang almost doing a chamber drop.

-Venti led a successful revolution against and was deemed a worthy successor by Prime Andrius of Decabrian, who at the time was Mond’s archon. Orobaxi never managed that title, only ruling over Enkanomiya and/or watsatsumi island. Big areas, but not compared to the entire countries that the archons lead.

-Zhonghli is the oldest remaining archon, implying he had to withstand the archon war for the longest time between the 7. He has also had regular bouts where he reigned victorious against Gods like Osial, who threatened all of Liyue.

Andrius was never Archon. He immediately conceded the opportunity to Venti. That being said, he was strong enough to take it. He just didn't because he knew his power could not cultivate, but Venti could.

Zhongli and Ei are the same age. Makoto was the actual Archon but Ei existed at the same time. Ei simply became Archon when Makoto died.

2. In my opinion "At least 6-C" would merely put Prime Barbatos on the same level as Base Ei since that is the exact same rating she has for her base. It's fair to say though that Venti was already at 6-C before getting his Gnosis due to defeating the previous Anemo Archon and got boosted beyond that through the Gnosis

Is this fair? Venti didn't defeat Decarabian by himself. In fact, he was pretty weak. Two of his friends died of them 4 total. As well, prime Barbatos may be stronger than base Ei because he sliced off Mondstadt's mountains and flipped them upside downand tossed them WAYYYY out in to the ocean. They are now the Golden Apple Archipelago and the peak mountain, Pilos Peak, is now where the Spiral Abyss is. He also brought green life to Mondstadt by doing so and continues to do so. Mondstadt is actually in a winter zone. Dragonspine isn't just "weird" because it's frosty, that whole place should be covered in snow.

 

[Shey]

Zhongli and Ei are the same age. Makoto was the actual Archon but Ei existed at the same time. Ei simply became Archon when Makoto died.

Can agree with almost everything you've said, aside from this little nitpick, Morax has records that date back 6000 years, while Ei's us just about 2700 iirc.

Is this fair? Venti didn't defeat Decarabian by himself. In fact, he was pretty weak. Two of his friends died of them 4 total. As well, prime Barbatos may be stronger than base Ei

Not aware of any other form Raiden Ei has that isn't her Base, her Island split is still > any other feat in Genshin

because he sliced off Mondstadt's mountains and flipped them upside downand tossed them WAYYYY out in to the ocean. They are now the Golden Apple Archipelago and the peak mountain, Pilos Peak, is now where the Spiral Abyss is. He also brought green life to Mondstadt by doing so and continues to do so. Mondstadt is actually in a winter zone. Dragonspine isn't just "weird" because it's frosty, that whole place should be covered in snow.

 

[Rune_Katashima]

Not aware of any other form Raiden Ei has that isn't her Base, her Island split is still > any other feat in Genshin

I'm only discussing a difference between her using and not using Musou no Hitotachi as people are.

 

[Wdinatx]

Can agree with almost everything you've said, aside from this little nitpick, Morax has records that date back 6000 years, while Ei's us just about 2700 iirc.

I have other nitpicks but they are far less important than this. It’s worth noting that gods aren’t synonymous with Archons, hence Morax being older than the other original Archons.

Is this fair? Venti didn't defeat Decarabian by himself. In fact, he was pretty weak. Two of his friends died of them 4 total. As well, prime Barbatos may be stronger than base Ei because he sliced off Mondstadt's mountains and flipped them upside downand tossed them WAYYYY out in to the ocean. They are now the Golden Apple Archipelago and the peak mountain, Pilos Peak, is now where the Spiral Abyss is. He also brought green life to Mondstadt by doing so and continues to do so. Mondstadt is actually in a winter zone. Dragonspine isn't just "weird" because it's frosty, that whole place should be covered in snow.

There probably should be a key for when he downscales from Decarabian to emphasize how he surpassed the guy by casually doing what he couldn’t. Also… am I wrong or was that during the Archon War?

Regardless I’m pretty sure that there are a lot of Genshin pages that are outdated in one way or another.

 

[Naito-desu]

Honestly I have half a mind to immediately revise the ratings we currently give them, but not until I finish the Inazuma Traveler and Sumeru Traveler keys

 

[Shey]

Genshin profiles are more than outdated I've also had this ick about using attributes that are purely Game Mechanics

 

[Naito-desu]

I don't really mind using the calculations based on skills demonstrated in gameplay, given that literally every video game uses in-game measurements. What I do have a problem with is storm cloud gathering not being treated as Potential Energy and it scaling physically to characters, and the fact that we have a Guhua calc that has little basis for the size of the bamboo forest and scales to people who have no reason to scale to Guhua