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Genshin 4A downgrade...

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Basically a downgrade of this CRT from Genshin 4A.

For starters, Genshin's general UES (elemental energy) thing doesn't really matter in the CRT, as there is no statement about witches using elemental energy or any type of energy in creating the world.

Well, in this CRT, I will explain everything that is not explained in the upgrade CRT, in addition to explaining some obvious misinterpretations.

The things that need to be explained are the "creation magic" (how exactly it works/what it does) and what the "real fantasy" stuff means.

What is, and what does, the magic of creation do? And what are the worlds (Imaginarium Theater and Simulanka) created by this magic?

Simulanka, before being "created", was a story written by M.
Old Journal: "Hmm... Why don't I write a story with origami animals as the main characters? Let's see... Once upon a time, in a magical Forest, there lived a group of animals made of paper..."
The world was not created physically or in reality, it just caused the world to become a kind of "real fiction", not something that was created to be physical or that is physical, but rather, just a story/book that became more real (they stopped being just characters in books, and became thinking beings who don't totally follow the story), and the world became a "fictional reality", where it doesn't actually/physically exist, but, within the book, it is as if it were another reality/existed physically.

An example of this is that they entered the world through M's fairy tale book.
Alice: When Durin of Simulanka made his wish to the Goddess of Fate, it just so happened that in a world far away, all of you wonderful people were holding a copy of M's fairytale at that exact moment.

Alice: And because of your noble and kind souls, you were selected by the Goddess of Fate to come and save this world.
Which means that there is no real creation feat (that scales to AP or something), since the world does not physically exist, but just a hax of "pocket reality" inside a book, there is no evidence that Alice has so much power to do something like this in real life.


Although it's not very specific, a character in the book comments about Alice using her magic of creation, and how there are no moments of Alice doing something like creating real/physical worlds, but only those in the book and the theater, 4A is only for pocket creation/reality, and doesn't scale to anything else.
It is worth highlighting that the starry sky only exists when we are in combat, being one of the maps, and we only enter this map after interacting with a book, which implies that all those planets, stars, etc. They are like Simulanka, "fictional realities" that exist only within the book, not as a physical reality..
Ginkgo: In her hands, she held the very paper used to form our bodies. She whispered something into the pages... And then, suddenly, a paper frog was born, ready to leap into the world! Oh, it was spectacular!
Chestnut: Cut the theatrics, will you? You weren't even there...
Paimon: Wait, so... That's it? Paimon thought creation magic would have a little bit more... pizzazz.
In this world, falling stars happen a lot, and they do nothing but fall, explode, have a destructive impact, nothing, besides many things in this world are literally toys, like trains.
Navia: Then first, we have to restore the sky back to its original state by putting the stars back in their positions. But it looks like we haven't recovered all the lost stars yet.
Now, I'm going to talk about the scans on the upgrade CRT.

Well, I don't need to explain about this scan, since I already explained what they say about "real fantasy".

This scan was clearly misinterpreted, as I already explained exactly about these "real fantasy" things, you can understand that obviously the worlds are not physical/real.
But, the main point of the error of interpretation is that the question is: "Which is more real, the fiction of the outside world, or the truth of this world?".

Basically, the question is whether the world created by Alice is more or less real than the fiction of the real world, which is answered by saying that the fiction of the real world and the world created by Alice are equally real, leaving even more obvious that the world created by Alice does not exist physically (it does not exist in reality), and it is as real as the fiction of the real world, which makes sense, since it does not exist in a literal/physical sense.

There is also what the narrator uses to explain this, he says: "Hear, hear. Who can be sure that the outside world isn't just a dream? And that when the dreamer wakes up, they won't just find themselves inside a novel?"

Basically, he indirectly compares Alice's world with a (not real) dream, which was a justification for why "real world fiction = world created by Alice (equally real)", by mentioning the real world as having the possibility of being a dream (something not real) using it as a justification/argument for both being equally real, he makes it obvious that the world created by Alice is not real, comparing it to a dream.

There is also the argument that "magic = element/elemental energy", which is half true, since elements and elemental energy are really considered magic, but magic is not just that:

It is only when guests "believe" from the bottom of their hearts that it's all real that the doors to that special world open wide before them. When that happens, dear guest, you will understand that preforming is a game, but also a ceremony, and thus too does it posses the power of magic!"

There is also the existence of spells for example.

One of them uses a quill pen to cast her spells. She has a very special bottle that contains "fantasy truth".

Conclusion: 4A must be removed from all profiles, what Alice does is, at best, a pocket reality inside a book (hax).




Agree: @Smashtwig, @Setsuna_tenma, @Puppet43, @Giannysmag

Neutral:

Disageee:
 
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You have agreed that it is a pocket dimension, and 4a is indeed obtained from creating a pocket dimension that has a starry sky.

doesn't this refute anything?
 
You have agreed that it is a pocket dimension, and 4a is indeed obtained from creating a pocket dimension that has a starry sky.

doesn't this refute anything?
This only scales to creation/pocket reality and nothing else (much less to other characters, since it's just a creation hax without using UES or anything like that, just like the subspaces created by Adeptus), different from how it's being scaled at the moment.
People in that crt agree the pocket reality one and the pocket world have this
I recommend reading the CRT, my goal is not to deny that there is "it" in theater.
This starry sky only exists within the book in the room, as this starry sky only exists on the map that the person is sent after interacting with the book in the room, making it clear that it is exactly like Simulanka (as I am suggesting on the CRT)
 
agree not to mention huge outlier for archons who has tier 6 feats consistently 4A is a massive outlier for them

also the stars in simulanka are not real we literally go to the sky and see they are not star sized in the quest
 
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agree not to mention huge outlier for archons who has tier 6 feats consistently 4A is a massive outlier for them

also the stars in simulanka are not real we literally go to the sky and sea they are not star sized in the quest
Well, besides you being right that there is no proof that stars are real, there is also the fact that this was considered a star in Simulanka (this is basically the size of a human hand, and the characters even pick them up), So the appearance of the stars in the sky in Simulanka and in the theater could very well be just to have the appearance of normal stars, but up close, they actually look like that (I'm not saying, but that's a possibility).

Navia: Then first, we have to restore the sky back to its original state by putting the stars back in their positions. But it looks like we haven't recovered all the lost stars yet.
 
I was already working on a downgrade and you covered the whole fantasy/reality and Magic stuff well but I wanna add two more things.

For one the creation feats are massive outliers considering the highest destruction feats we got are Venti yeating a mountain and some earthquake feats (6-C to 6-B) and the highest physical feat we got is Zhongli cutting a mountain which would end up at like what? 7-B? This is a verse that treats throwing mountains and creating storms as impressive God Tier feats. Hell even looking at something like the sinners, who each possess 1/5th of a power to destroy the world and that was enough for Dain to consider them "transcendent beings" when all of them should be 4-A anyway by our current scale.

Secondly no one that currently has a profile should even scale to the Hexenzirkle to begin with (aside from maybe Neuvillette). The only justification given in the upgrade CRT is that:
the hexenzirkle wizard once challenged barbatos to a fight, Diluk also once explained that Alice was the only person besides Barbatos who could rule Golden Apple Island. From this we can conclude that Barbatos has power that is at least equivalent to a Hexenzirkle wizard or vice versa
Which is completely meaningless since they never actually fought Barbatos, if anything the fact they had the balls to challenge an Archon in his prime probably implies them to be superior (either way tho we don't know because they never fought)

So yea completely agree with the downgrade
 
Well you 2 are missunderstood where we say that as the starry sky for the upgrades

We didn't mention that goofy ah star paper as the starry sky we mention in that crt

But this

And for some ppl who gonna say the whole upgrades is outlier cause archon only destroy island

Man plis that was fallacy ngl

The scale of hexenzirkel are valid

But the main problem is how to scale archon to hexenzirkel level
 
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Secondly no one that currently has a profile should even scale to the Hexenzirkle to begin with (aside from maybe Neuvillette). The only justification given in the upgrade CRT is that:
Which is completely meaningless since they never actually fought Barbatos, if anything the fact they had the balls to challenge an Archon in his prime probably implies them to be superior (either way tho we don't know because they never fought)

So yea completely agree with the downgrade
Even if they fought, it wouldn't escalate at all, since Alice hasn't demonstrated any 4A "feats" other than with pure creation, and she doesn't even use any kind of UES for that creation, so in the best case scenario, it escalates to a pocket dimension creation/reality 4A for Alice.
 
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Well you 2 are missunderstood where we say that as the starry sky for the upgrades

We didn't mention that goofy ah star paper as the starry sky we mention in that crt
This star that I mentioned is not really important for the downgrade, I just see it as a small possibility.
But this

And for some ppl who gonna say the whole upgrades is outlier cause archon only destroy island

Man plis that was no limit fallacy ngl
I believe this is supposed to be a scan? I click and just go to the Imgur home page.
 
So the world threat are going to be 4A?
By our current scale they would be (They are the six greats of Khanreah and would thus be comparable to Prime Capitano who was a commander). And yet they are stated to have world shattering power and that is treated as a big deal by Dain so logically they wouldn't be 4-A and neither would Dain which is why I brought it up.
 
I do agree the downgrade for some bad justification like shenhe and xiao being 4-A this justification break the power scaling for a while

But maybe the archon level character will stay at 4A

They can be classified as one of the strongest gods in Teyvat because they won the archon war in their own country
 
I do agree the downgrade for some bad justification like shenhe and xiao being 4-A this justification break the power scaling for a while
ill rearrange god tier scaling after this revision
But maybe the archon level character will stay at 4A

They can be classified as one of the strongest gods in Teyvat because they won the archon war in their own country
No, venti straight up rejected challenge from witches, and the crt clearly explained why entire 4-A feat is outside El energy
 
This only scales to creation/pocket reality and nothing else (much less to other characters, since it's just a creation hax without using UES or anything like that, just like the subspaces created by Adeptus), different from how it's being scaled at the moment.
It has been explained in the previous CRT that elemental energy is UES, magic itself is still related to elemental energy.
You can see it here:
1. Gnosis is a vision that is said to be magic, which we know that gnosis and vision are to use elemental powers
2. A magic guidebook that discusses elemental energy
3. Mona, a student of Barbelot, uses elemental hydro to predict, this magic was taught directly by Barbeloth, the person who created the Imaginarium Theater and Simulanka.
4. Crimson Witch of Flames uses elemental pyro
5. Samachurls who cast magic to summon elemental energy and that is why they can use elemental power without vision.
As explained here, UES can be used to increase character stats including attack potency and durability, so if Alice is able to create a pocket dimension that has a starry sky, this will increase her attack potency.
Why is it possible to scale to Barbatos?
Alice is thedefender of Old Monstadt, Old Monstadt is Monstadt led by the decarabian storm god, which means Alice has a level below Decarabian and Decarabian was defeated by Barbatos in the fight. From this we can conclude that Barbatos is stronger than Alice because he was able to defeat Decarabian who is the leader of Old Monstadt.
 
I do agree the downgrade for some bad justification like shenhe and xiao being 4-A this justification break the power scaling for a while

But maybe the archon level character will stay at 4A

They can be classified as one of the strongest gods in Teyvat because they won the archon war in their own country
Damn, I didn't know some fodders scaled for this too, this upgrade was scary.

But, the problem is that 4A would in the best case scenario be made from 4A creation, since there is no use of UES for creation, it would not scale to any physical statistics of Alice or any other character, the creation magic is just a magic creation specification which apparently is "say a few words and create" (without using any type of UES).

Ginkgo: In her hands, she held the very paper used to form our bodies. She whispered something into the pages... And then, suddenly, a paper frog was born, ready to leap into the world! Oh, it was spectacular!
Chestnut: Cut the theatrics, will you? You weren't even there...
Paimon: Wait, so... That's it? Paimon thought creation magic would have a little bit more... pizzazz.
 
It has been explained in the previous CRT that elemental energy is UES, magic itself is still related to elemental energy.
You can see it here:
1. Gnosis is a vision that is said to be magic, which we know that gnosis and vision are to use elemental powers
2. A magic guidebook that discusses elemental energy
3. Mona, a student of Barbelot, uses elemental hydro to predict, this magic was taught directly by Barbeloth, the person who created the Imaginarium Theater and Simulanka.
4. Crimson Witch of Flames uses elemental pyro
5. Samachurls who cast magic to summon elemental energy and that is why they can use elemental power without vision.
As explained here, UES can be used to increase character stats including attack potency and durability, so if Alice is able to create a pocket dimension that has a starry sky, this will increase her attack potency.
Why is it possible to scale to Barbatos?
Alice is thedefender of Old Monstadt, Old Monstadt is Monstadt led by the decarabian storm god, which means Alice has a level below Decarabian and Decarabian was defeated by Barbatos in the fight. From this we can conclude that Barbatos is stronger than Alice because he was able to defeat Decarabian who is the leader of Old Monstadt.
you should read the comments again, why is it solid 4a. me and garrixian actually want to put them in likely 4a. but me found a feat where barbatos was able to defeat decarabian led a old mondstat and alice is the defender of old mondstadt which means barbatos is stronger than alice and decarabian
 
It has been explained in the previous CRT that elemental energy is UES, magic itself is still related to elemental energy.
You can see it here:
1. Gnosis is a vision that is said to be magic, which we know that gnosis and vision are to use elemental powers
2. A magic guidebook that discusses elemental energy
3. Mona, a student of Barbelot, uses elemental hydro to predict, this magic was taught directly by Barbeloth, the person who created the Imaginarium Theater and Simulanka.
4. Crimson Witch of Flames uses elemental pyro
5. Samachurls who cast magic to summon elemental energy and that is why they can use elemental power without vision.
All elemental energy is magic but not all magic is elemental energy. All this is just evidence for the former
 
I would Agree for some characters like Shenhe, Xiao, Arlecchino, and other that below Archons level

When the 4-A got accepted, i thought it will be only Archons level like Dragon Sovereign, Top 3 Harbingers and Hexenzirkel, and i wasnt expected that almost all of them got scaled LOL.

Like why is Shenhe also 4-A?, and also Cyno?
Like they're not even Archons level, they just Adeptus Level at max.

Top 3 Harbingers was proven to be Archons level by Capitano himself

The main point of my Thought is that
only Archons Level, such as Dragon Sovereings, Hexenzirkel, Top 3 Harbingers, Skirk and Narwhal that Deserve the 4-A.

Harbingers like Arlecchino, Scaramouche and Childe is at most 6-B, as well as Adeptus Level.
 
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It has been explained in the previous CRT that elemental energy is UES, magic itself is still related to elemental energy.
At what point is the creation magic used by Alice mentioned as elemental energy? I mean, I have one thing saying that it's not even possible to use elemental energy in Simulanka, and one saying that Alice's magic is basically "say a few words and creation comes", there's no evidence that "magic used by witches ( mainly creation) = elemental energy", the magic used by witches as far as we saw from Alice's creation magic is a hax, not an energy.
1. Gnosis is a vision that is said to be magic, which we know that gnosis and vision are to use elemental powers
"At what point is the creation magic used by Alice mentioned as elemental energy?"
"At what point is the creation magic used by Alice mentioned as elemental energy?"
3. Mona, a student of Barbelot, uses elemental hydro to predict, this magic was taught directly by Barbeloth, the person who created the Imaginarium Theater and Simulanka.
This isn't even called magic, addition than it literally says clearly that it uses astrology.
Does this mean she has pyro vision, how does this correlate Alice's creation magic (hax) with elemental energy?
5. Samachurls who cast magic to summon elemental energy and that is why they can use elemental power without vision.
While not correlating with Alice's creation magic, Alice's creation magic is literally "speaking and creating", it is completely different from anything you will find with the name/mention of "magic".
As explained here, UES can be used to increase character stats including attack potency and durability, so if Alice is able to create a pocket dimension that has a starry sky, this will increase her attack potency.
Why is it possible to scale to Barbatos?
She creates a pocket dimension with magic/hax, not magic/energy, they are two different things.
 
Magic is still related to elemental energy. even samachurl only uses chants to output elementals
Yes like I said elemental energy is magic based but not every form of magic is based on elements. This is why you can't scale the IT creation to elements, because it may have been done by magic but it wasn't done by elements
 
Im gonna research the whole imaginarium theater and the quest wait

Maybe i can found some elemental energy feats in that world
 
At what point is the creation magic used by Alice mentioned as elemental energy? I mean, I have one thing saying that it's not even possible to use elemental energy in Simulanka, and one saying that Alice's magic is basically "say a few words and creation comes", there's no evidence that "magic used by witches ( mainly creation) = elemental energy", the magic used by witches as far as we saw from Alice's creation magic is a hax, not an energy.
they can't use vision because of the rules set by the 3 simulanka gods, so Alice says that it's not a coincidence but fate. did you forget that Wanderer can use Elemental there? That's because Wanderer is a hero who will save the world of Simulanka from the evil Durin.
the magic used by witches as far as we saw from Alice's creation magic is a hax, not an energy.
just hax? they create real space and have physical how you say this does not produce energy, even in the calculations here it clearly calculates energy.
"At what point is the creation magic used by Alice mentioned as elemental energy?"

"At what point is the creation magic used by Alice mentioned as elemental energy?"

This isn't even called magic, addition than it literally says clearly that it uses astrology.

Does this mean she has pyro vision, how does this correlate Alice's creation magic (hax) with elemental energy?
everything I provided was proof of the link between magic and elemental energy. they call it magic which means it is elemental energy.
Mona is Barbeloth's student and her magic was taught by Barbeloth, the goddess who created Simulanka. they still use elemental energy

the crimson witch never uses vision
 
The mistake is trying to correlate any mention of magic as elemental energy to Alice's magic.
Elemental energy is a UES, and is also often called magic, since well, it is a magical power/energy, but, that doesn't mean that anything named "magic" is elemental energy or uses elemental energy.

Alice's creation magic fits into the hax/spell/ability category when talking about magic.
Elemental energy fits into magical energy when it comes to magic.
 
Eh...would this do as all magic falls under category of Elemental energy?
As such, she does not have any reverence for her Vision, which the people of this world consider to be a sign of divine favor and the source of all power.
idk why i'm supporting 4-A lol
 
they can't use vision because of the rules set by the 3 simulanka gods, so Alice says that it's not a coincidence but fate. did you forget that Wanderer can use Elemental there? That's because Wanderer is a hero who will save the world of Simulanka from the evil Durin.
Alice's creation magic is literally "speaking and creating", does that sound like elemental energy manipulation to you?
just hax? they create real space and have physical how you say this does not produce energy, even in the calculations here it clearly calculates energy.
There is no mention/demonstration of UES being used = nothing scales.
everything I provided was proof of the link between magic and elemental energy. they call it magic which means it is elemental energy.
Mona is Barbeloth's student and her magic was taught by Barbeloth, the goddess who created Simulanka. they still use elemental energy

the crimson witch never uses vision
You are limiting the notion of magic, magic is not just energy (elemental energy) but also spells, runes, magic circles and others that do not use elemental energy.
She taught a way to use vision + astrology to predict attacks, this is not magic, just a combination of two things to make one.

When is this said? I don't know if you know, but the crimson beuxa is the signora, who always uses her vision.
 
Replying to this later, but there are alot of fallacious reasonings here, both in the OP and from the supporters of this CRT (and honestly an instant-downgrade like this should be falling under the 3-4 month rule in my opinion but whatever)
Eh...would this do as all magic falls under category of Elemental energy?
Can I get the source of this tho?
 
The mistake is trying to correlate any mention of magic as elemental energy to Alice's magic.
Elemental energy is a UES, and is also often called magic, since well, it is a magical power/energy, but, that doesn't mean that anything named "magic" is elemental energy or uses elemental energy.

Alice's creation magic fits into the hax/spell/ability category when talking about magic.
Elemental energy fits into magical energy when it comes to magic.
Yes, magic is elemental energy, how do you know Alice doesn't use elementals? while the crimson witch and samachurl witch only use elemental energy?
Even entities that come from outside the Genshin world, such as those in the narwhal's body, still use elemental energy.
 
Yes, magic is elemental energy, how do you know Alice doesn't use elementals? while the crimson witch and samachurl witch only use elemental energy?
Even entities that come from outside the Genshin world, such as those in the narwhal's body, still use elemental energy.
I'm not the one who needs to prove that she doesn't use elemental energy to create the dimension, you who need to prove otherwise, since there is no mention/sign of such a thing, just her using a specific magic that creates things with words, this seems like manipulation of elemental energy? To me it looks like magic/"spell"/hax, not energy.
You know the crimson witch is Signora right? She uses her delusion.
Adepts don't use elemental energy to create their subspace, why does Alice use it to create a world even without having any evidence of it?

I mean, spells exist, so it's not weird to think of Alice's creation magic as a spell: "One of them uses a quill pen to cast her spells. She has a very special bottle that contains "fantasy truth."

"It is only when guests "believe" from the bottom of their hearts that it's all real that the doors to that special world open wide before them. When that happens, dear guest, you will understand that preforming is a game, but also a ceremony, and thus too does it posses the power of magic!"
^^^^^
Obviously it's not talking about elemental energy or even energy (it's more like a spell/skill), which makes it very obvious that magic isn't just elemental energy or energy.
 
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I agree with the downgrade and OP's reasoning - even discounting whether the Hexenzirkel witch actually created real stars in Imaginarium Theatre, scaling any character, archon or otherwise, to the level of a Hexenzirkel witch when there is no such thing as a complete ues in Genshin is just crazy. If you want 4-A, slap it on the future witches, but nobody else realistically deserves it.
 
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