Genshin 4A downgrade...

[Weaver261]

Okay....This is kinda somewhat in between. Magic is not necessarily granted to use when you gained vision. You need to learn it. Mona said although she doesn't fancy much about Vision, it is teaching aid given by her master.

As such, she does not have any reverence for her Vision, which the people of this world consider to be a sign of divine favor and the source of all power.

Nonetheless, this item that serves no practical use in her hands is something that she treasures greatly.

It was gifted to her by her teacher as a teaching aid, and it is the only evidence of their time together as master and pupil.

It's supported again in Lisa story about how understanding elements is necessary in learning magic. That's why she needed vision.

After all, understanding the elements is essential to the study of magic, and practical experience is a far more useful means of acquiring this understanding than trying to assimilate the knowledge contained in dusty old books.

I think we should consider Magic > Elemental Energy. That might be why Hexenzirkel Witches are so powerful. Not all elemental energy user can use magic.

 

[Dog3352]

Okay....This is kinda somewhat in between. Magic is not necessarily granted to use when you gained vision. You need to learn it. Mona said although she doesn't fancy much about Vision, it is teaching aid given by her master.

It's supported again in Lisa story about how understanding elements is necessary in learning magic. That's why she needed vision.

I think we should consider Magic > Elemental Energy. That might be why Hexenzirkel Witches are so powerful. Not all elemental energy user can use magic.

Lisa made it very obvious that magic is not always elemental energy, energy or something related to the element, there are also these two mentions that came along with the theater:

One of them uses a quill pen to cast her spells. She has a very special bottle that contains "fantasy truth".

It is only when guests "believe" from the bottom of their hearts that it's all real that the doors to that special world open wide before them. When that happens, dear guest, you will understand that preforming is a game, but also a ceremony, and thus too does it posses the power of magic!"

One makes clear the existence of spells, the other is obviously not talking about elemental energy or elements when talking about magic.

 

[Weaver261]

Lisa made it very obvious that magic is not always elemental energy, energy or something related to the element, there are also these two mentions that came along with the theater:

Kinda but magic is closely related to elemental energy. It's just that not everybody can use it. That's why 4-A rating UES chain scaling for fodder characters that we don't even know they learned magic or not should be removed.

Lisa: Eating salad is like piling on more and more elemental power. Raw, unfettered energy applied indiscriminately, with no elegance or control.
Lisa: It's the first mistake all magic users make when they're learning. But then again... if one genuinely had so much pure elemental power that they could solve any problem they wanted... that would be a different matter entirely.

 

[DivinumAeterna]

Kinda but magic is closely related to elemental energy. It's just that not everybody can use it. That's why 4-A rating UES chain scaling for fodder characters that we don't even know they learned magic or not should be removed.

Even Elemental Energy's connection to magic is dubious, I wouldn't be so quick to jump to conclusions. After all, in Natlan we find out that "Phlogiston is Teyvat's primordial form of energy and was used by the Heavenly Principles as a basis for the creation of Elemental Energy", so Elemental Energy isn't even a subset of Magic, since Phlogiston itself is never referenced as relating to magic or any other system.

Same goes for the fallacy of trying to equate Adepti Arts to the Hexenzirkel Witch's hax or magic, they are things that should be assumed separate unless proven otherwise within the story, which by itself has consistently painted the two as different things.

 

[Furina003]

I'm not the one who needs to prove that she doesn't use elemental energy to create the dimension, you who need to prove otherwise, since there is no mention/sign of such a thing, just her using a specific magic that creates things with words, this seems like manipulation of elemental energy? To me it looks like magic/"spell"/hax, not energy.
You know the crimson witch is Signora right? She uses her delusion.
Adepts don't use elemental energy to create their subspace, why does Alice use it to create a world even without having any evidence of it?

This means that your rebuttal is less credible, I've provided a lot of evidence of the connection between magic and elemental energy, but you just say it's not elemental without any proof.
Adeptus energy is still elemental energy, why can they use elemental energy without vision because they have adeptus energy

Adepti are immortal illuminated beasts of Liyue, who have protected people for millennia. As humans have a higher purpose, only those of non-human status can be Adepti. No one is born an Adeptus, and no one remains an Adeptus forever, so all of non-human status can become an Adeptus. The word "Adeptus" is merely a title, so not all illuminated beasts are referred to as such. The Adepti are known as the "mighty and illuminated" Adepti, and this "illumination" refers to the light of a third "eye" that they possess, which allows them to use elemental powers without A Vision. For humans, the third "eye" takes the form of a Vision, but Adepti, pure elemental beings, are closer to the origin of ultimate truth than ordinary mortals. They were born amongst the elemental energy that courses between heaven and earth, so channeling elemental power is something that can be done almost subconsciously. They do not require the aid of an external focus to do so, let alone a Vision. It is not known for certain how Adepti get their Visions, however, when they take the human form, they tend to use a Vision to follow human rules.

As explained by Solitary Suanni, even explained directly that adeptus energy is elemental energy. that's why he can use hydro and cryo
you can see it here and here

 

[Weaver261]

Even Elemental Energy's connection to magic is dubious

Lisa made it clear that Magic is the more refined use of elemental energy. It's not just using as it is. Phlogiston being origin of elemental energy is a thing but elements has existed long before Primordial One arrived as there're seven elemental dragons. It's hard to believe dragons also divied Phlogiston to elemental energies. I think Alice's 4-A likely rating would be fine. but I doubt no one would scale to that and Alice doesn't even have a profile yet. So the whole crt of upgrading it was pointless

 

[Dog3352]

This means that your rebuttal is less credible, I've provided a lot of evidence of the connection between magic and elemental energy, but you just say it's not elemental without any proof.

I proved that magic does not just refer to elements and elemental energy, in addition to the existence of spells among the beuxas, opening the possibility for Alice's magic to be nothing more than a hax/spell, rather than manipulation of energy/elemental energy.

Adeptus energy is still elemental energy, why can they use elemental energy without vision because they have adeptus energy

Nowhere does it say that adeptus energy and elemental energy are the same thing, the Genshin wiki itself (which is where you got this text from) doesn't know exactly how this works.

Adepti possess adeptal energy (Chinese: 仙家气运 xiānjiā qìyùn) that has a unique effect based on the individual. When the Traveler was infused with three adepti's energies, Madame Ping's created intermittent shockwaves upon attacking, Ganyu's granted passive healing, and Xiao's increased movement speed. It is unclear whether adeptal energy is linked to their "third eye," or if it is an independent power.

 

[DivinumAeterna]

Lisa made it clear that Magic is the more refined use of elemental energy. It's not just using as it is. Phlogiston being origin of elemental energy is a thing but elements has existed long before Primordial One arrived as there're seven elemental dragons. It's hard to believe dragons also divied Phlogiston to elemental energies. I think Alice's 4-A likely rating would be fine. but I doubt no one would scale to that and Alice doesn't even have a profile yet. So the whole crt of upgrading it was pointless

Well, regardless of arguing on the nature of magic vs elemental energy and whether Lisa was referring to "magic magic" or referring to turning elemental energy into attacks and spells as "magic" (which she easily could, by the way), I do agree that Witches MAY deserve 4-A, potentially, just not anyone else (Archons) and especially not fodders (Shenhe)

 

[Voidnether]

Replying to this later, but there are alot of fallacious reasonings here, both in the OP and from the supporters of this CRT (and honestly an instant-downgrade like this should be falling under the 3-4 month rule in my opinion but whatever)

Nobody makes the downgrade for 4-A previously, plus there are a lot of people who agrees here. So it's completely irrelevant.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Im not very knowledgable on this verse, but if Alice's magic can be physically channelled, than the whole thread goes to the bin

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Nobody makes the downgrade for 4-A previously, plus there are a lot of people who agrees here. So it's completely irrelevant.

That's not how the rule works

 

[Voidnether]

There are something called Mystic Arts in Genshin, some of them are powered by elemental / related to it and some of them doesn't. To assume that every magic is powered / related to elemental energy in the first place should be the most obvious association fallacy.

 

[Voidnether]

That's not how the rule works

When creating content revisions, it is essential to ensure that the topic has not been addressed previously. Rejected content revisions cannot be resubmitted within a short period of time (typically defined as within 3 to 4 months), except in cases where a staff member has a good reason to do so (e.g. important unconsidered information, violation of site standards, or flaws in a calculation). This only applies to threads that have received extensive debate or have been rejected due to a clear conflict with the wiki's rules or standards. If a thread passes or is rejected without significant opposition, then opposition should not be restricted from making a point.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Read again

When creating content revisions, it is essential to ensure that the topic has not been addressed previously.

4-A was addressed a few days ago

 

[Voidnether]

4-A was addressed a few days ago

When?

 

[Puppet43]

if anything the fact they had the balls to challenge an Archon in his prime probably implies them to be superior (either way tho we don't know because they never fought)

i think is the other way around (i mean whole group vs 1) + Madame Mage was never implied or stated to be from the Hexenzirkle

 

[Lloydblitzed]

When?

On October 29. It doesn't matter if its a downgrade, its litterally about the same subject

 

[Voidnether]

On October 29. It doesn't matter if its a downgrade, its litterally about the same subject

That's literally how 4-A was accepted...

 

[Lloydblitzed]

That's literally how 4-A was accepted...

What?

 

[DivinumAeterna]

On October 29. It doesn't matter if its a downgrade, its litterally about the same subject

Why doesn't it matter? Topic of upgrade vs topic of downgrade are different things, and just because a flawed upgrade got passed doesn't mean opponents are forced to shut up for four months while the upgrade is pushed. Now can we please stop flooding the thread with legalese dissection of forum rules?

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Why doesn't it matter? Topic of upgrade vs topic of downgrade are different things, and just because a flawed upgrade got passed doesn't mean opponents are forced to shut up for four months while the upgrade is pushed. Now can we please stop flooding the thread with legalese dissection of forum rules?

Ask to reopen the thread and pull out the new arguments instead of making a whole new one then...

 

[Furina003]

Nowhere does it say that adeptus energy and elemental energy are the same thing, the Genshin wiki itself (which is where you got this text from) doesn't know exactly how this works.

I got this from hoyolab not wiki. This is the official description of the game, this is very clear

Cold and solid scales from a Solitary Suanni. They retain pure adeptal energy even after falling off and cannot be damaged by ordinary weapons.
Ordinary beasts can sometimes be affected by errant adeptal energy and become more powerful than usual. However, a suanni's adeptal energy originates from within themselves, which is why their leader is often regarded as equal to adepti.

and here. Suanni uses adeptal energy to wield elemental powers

An illuminated beast that dwells deep within the mountains that can use Hydro and Anemo simultaneously in battle. Render it Frozen while it is gathering Hydro-aligned adeptal energy, before using Shatter, Melt, or other Elemental Reactions to break the ice and cause it to enter an immobile state. When it is gathering Anemo-aligned adeptal energy, use attacks from Elements that can react with Anemo to destroy the Spiritwind Pearls summoned during the process to achieve the same advantage.

These elegant and proud mystical beasts only live in mountains shrouded in adeptal energy.
Since ancient times, they have been considered a symbol of good fortune, and their preference for living aloof from the material world has been admired by intellectuals for generations. In ancient legends from Chenyu Vale, the leader of the suanni was called the Mountain Lord and was considered to be of the same standing as the adepti.
Another theory claims that the Xuanwen Beasts that roam the mountains these days are the descendants of the suanni, but that the thinning of their blood over the years has caused them to devolve into violent creatures. Although this contradicts another theory regarding the origin of Xuanwen Beasts, the few records of the suanni often show them attended by a large number of Xuanwen Beasts.
These days, the well-known Wushou Dance in Chenyu Vale came from the movements of the suanni. But since only a handful of people have actually seen such creatures, most can only imagine what they look like. After thousands of years of changes and different artistic interpretations, the Wushou Dance costume head has developed into its current style.

It was very clear that adeptal energy was elemental energy

I proved that magic does not just refer to elements and elemental energy, in addition to the existence of spells among the beuxas, opening the possibility for Alice's magic to be nothing more than a hax/spell, rather than manipulation of energy/elemental energy.

no you don't prove it at all, even samachurl also uses his singing to use elemental power. the vision of the embodiment of ambition still uses the elements, the Crimson Magic still uses the power of the elements.

 

[Dog3352]

There are something called Mystic Arts in Genshin, some of them are powered by elemental / related to it and some of them doesn't. To assume that every magic is powered / related to elemental energy in the first place should be the most obvious association fallacy.

In addition to some of the Mystic Arts that are called magic, just what I show of 3 examples already adds 3 more meanings to magic (mainly in relation to witches), spells, magical rings and "magic power" (which taking into account the previous explanation, it is clearly not elemental energy).

Wolfy: That moment when you first step onto the stage, do you not feel anything different at all? Do you not feel the unique ambiance within the magic ring?
Wolfy: sigh... This is one thing even one such as I, the concierge, cannot help you with...
Wolfy: It is only when guests "believe" from the bottom of their hearts that it's all real that the doors to that special world open wide before them.
Wolfy: When that happens, dear guest, you will understand that performing is a game, but also a ceremony, and thus does it too possess the power of magic!

One of them uses a quill pen to cast her spells. She has a very special bottle that contains "fantasy truth.

Not to mention other things, like, even the world created by adeptus can be considered magical, even without the infusion of energy.

Paimon: So, in the eyes of an adeptus, creating a magic teapot world is just child's play, huh?

There is also the magic of kitsunes.

Legend has it that in the time of the Great Kitsune Hakushin, she had six apprentices. All were greatly skilled in magic and in shape-shifting. Day-to-day, they were tasked with assisting their matriarch, Hakushin, in managing the shrine and defending Mt. Yougou.

Shikigami and Shikifuda

The art of onmyoudou primarily involves the use of charm magic via shikigami and shikifuda. Shikigami are paper cut-outs that are embued with magical powers; examples include Shiki Taishou and his many replicas, such as Shiki Koshou. Originally, samurai would combine the shikigami's charm magic with their own martial prowess to fight off monsters.[18] Shikifuda are paper seals, and they could be used during combat, similar to shikigami. These focus mainly on elemental powers.

And more others

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

I also agree with this downgrade

 

[Dog3352]

I got this from hoyolab not wiki. This is the official description of the game, this is very clear

Then send the link.

and here. Suanni uses adeptal energy to wield elemental powers

It is said that they have adept energy in their scales, nothing to do with elemental energy.

It was very clear that adeptal energy was elemental energy

"Hydro-aligned", you know the meaning of aligned, right? The adeptus energy is "fundrd" with the elemental energy and bringing it to the adeptus, which already makes it clear that they are not the same thing, and if that were the case, an element would not need to be aligned to use it, it is the Same thing as bringing water using wind and saying that you are manipulating water.
The third text, like the first, does not even talk about elemental energy.

no you don't prove it at all, even samachurl also uses his singing to use elemental power. the vision of the embodiment of ambition still uses the elements, the Crimson Magic still uses the power of the elements.

Yes, let's pretend that the various other types of magic mentioned (subspace crration, magic rings, spells, kitsune magics and more) don't exist, and pretend that magic is solely elemental energy and elements, for God's sake, now that's just an appeal ignorance.

 

[GarrixianXD]

The Imaginarium Threatre was created from magic that was used by a witch from Hexenzirkel. Magic is part of the pool of the Genshin Universal Energy System, as we see witches/astrologists such as Mona consistently using magic to cast their elemental powers during combat. Barbeloth is a witch of Hexenzirkel, an astrologist who is a hydromancer and visionary who is the teacher of Mona; it should be quite clear that her magic is powers of hydro just like Mona, and uses her knowledge on magic to cast her hydropower. The Catalyst itself is a weapon wielded with magic, there's even a thing called the "Magic Guide". In short summary, magic itself is a form of elemental power and a method of casting it, or at least the witches of Hexenzirkel harness it to cast their elemental powers. Elemental energy is said to be the building blocks of reality and the source of countless things, hence it is fundamental. I'm pretty sure with all this in mind it is safe to say magic used by the Hexenzirkel witches has a very solid connection towards elemental energy.

As for the Imaginarium Threatre being fate, I think it was been already addressed. If it hasn't I'll make a statement on it: Teyvat itself has been said to be fake countless times and then was even proposed upon it. The "fiction of the real world" statement lies upon the secrets, buried truth, and the false sky that makes Teyvat very seemingly to have fictional "elements" towards it -- that statement was upon contrasting the Imaginarium Threatre with the buried phenomenons and secrets of Teyvat. The word "fantasy" is a name given upon the Imaginarium Threatre, since its creation is still based upon a fictional story, and the term "fantasy" usually refers to fictional works and media. Now, add "real" to it, seems like that piece of fiction rather became real and a part of the reality Traveler set foot in, or at least the reality of the Imaginarium Threatre, hence why it was said to be a "real fantasy". So yeah, the Imaginarium Threatre is indeed real, except it pertains to the secrets of Teyvat.

Other than the main concerns I need to address that hooked people's attention, much of the OP is rather poorly indexed. Sure, Simulanka is a story from a book but if you want to get rigidly realistic here then no one can enter a book under any fundamental laws of the universe at all, hence it is not strictly a mere fictional story either, but rather an actual world you can explore that works upon a plot of a story, hence not exactly qualitatively inferior.

Not going to comment upon the scaling chain of the verse, as it wasn't my responsibility to handle that.

And yeah, don't need to mention it, put me on disagree.

 

[Furina003]

Then send the link.

even though I already gave it to him, right? You just have to look at my previous comment, the adeptus explanation is here

"Hydro-aligned", you know the meaning of aligned, right? The adeptus energy is "fundrd" with the elemental energy and bringing it to the adeptus, which already makes it clear that they are not the same thing, and if that were the case, an element would not need to be aligned to use it, it is the Same thing as bringing water using wind and saying that you are manipulating water.
The third text, like the first, does not even talk about elemental energy.

bro, from this it is clear that elemental and adeptal are connected, that's why Sunni can use elemental power because he has adeptal energy.

 

[Dog3352]

The Imaginarium Threatre was created from magic that was used by a witch from Hexenzirkel. Magic is part of the pool of the Genshin Universal Energy System, as we see witches/astrologists such as Mona consistently using magic to cast their elemental powers during combat.

As I have already said and shown evidence, the term "magic" is not only used for elementary energy or elements, this has already been said, now it remains to be proven that creation magic uses elemental energy, or that the creation magic uses elemental energy, and not just some spell or another of the various terms for magic in Genshin (such as spells, which is even mentioned in the witches themselves).

Barbeloth is a witch of Hexenzirkel, an astrologist who is a hydromancer and visionary who is the teacher of Mona; it should be quite clear that her magic is powers of hydro just like Mona, and uses her knowledge on magic to cast her hydropower. The Catalyst itself is a weapon wielded with magic, there's even a thing called the "Magic Guide". In short summary, magic itself is a form of elemental power and a method of casting it, or at least the witches of Hexenzirkel harness it to cast their elemental powers. Elemental energy is said to be the building blocks of reality and the source of countless things, hence it is fundamental. I'm pretty sure with all this in mind it is safe to say magic used by the Hexenzirkel witches has a very solid connection towards elemental energy.

Already mentioned before, and still none of this proves that Alice's creation magic uses elemental energy, only of mystical arts there are at least 4-5 that do not use elemental energy and are cited as magic, and even more from witches to two things mentioned (spells, and the word magic itself in wolfy's statement, which clearly from the context is not talking about elemental energy).

As for the Imaginarium Threatre being fate, I think it was been already addressed. If it hasn't I'll make a statement on it: Teyvat itself has been said to be fake countless times and then was even proposed upon it.

The false sky has been a Genshin theory/statement for years, of course it will be mentioned, especially in history, as it is a very important element for the lore.

The "fiction of the real world" statement lies upon the secrets, buried truth, and the false sky that makes Teyvat very seemingly to have fictional "elements" towards it -- that statement was upon contrasting the Imaginarium Threatre with the buried phenomenons and secrets of Teyvat. The word "fantasy" is a name given upon the Imaginarium Threatre, since its creation is still based upon a fictional story, and the term "fantasy" usually refers to fictional works and media. Now, add "real" to it, seems like that piece of fiction rather became real and a part of the reality Traveler set foot in, or at least the reality of the Imaginarium Threatre, hence why it was said to be a "real fantasy". So yeah, the Imaginarium Threatre is indeed real, except it pertains to the secrets of Teyvat.

In addition to not having scans to support your words, I have already proven the opposite with scans (and this about Alice's creation magic in general, with Simunlaka mentioning that this is Alice's creation magic), the story itself makes it clear that the "real" part is about the world being basically a "fictional reality", basically a reality that is only a "physical reality" within the book itself, but that does not exist in real life (Simulnaka is the best example, being which is literally a world within the book, but does not exist outside of it or physically in real life).

Other than the main concerns I need to address that hooked people's attention, much of the OP is rather poorly indexed. Sure, Simulanka is a story from a book but if you want to get rigidly realistic here then no one can enter a book under any fundamental laws of the universe at all, hence it is not strictly a mere fictional story either, but rather an actual world you can explore that works upon a plot of a story, hence not exactly qualitatively inferior.

Bruh, this "argument" only works if I said that the world is literally just a book and nothing else, which is not the case, as I said before, the book/reality/world doesn't really exist (to the real world/in the real world), it only "exists" for someone who is inside the book, and this "reality" is inside the book, but, this reality in a "status of existence", it is still "as real as fiction" and "compared to a dream", even for someone inside the book, which is where the reality of the book becomes the "as real as possible" (the narrator himself says/explains this).

 

[Dog3352]

even though I already gave it to him, right? You just have to look at my previous comment, the adeptus explanation is here

It doesn't work.

bro, from this it is clear that elemental and adeptal are connected, that's why Sunni can use elemental power because he has adeptal energy.

It uses adept energy to pull the element and use it, this is different from saying that elemental energy and adept energy are the same thing.

 

[Puppet43]

The Imaginarium Threatre was created from magic that was used by a witch from Hexenzirkel.

is never stated that gg
Is a witch called Madame mage

 

[ZENZUYA]

I gonna sleep rn

I hope no one make any conclucion rn

 

[Voidnether]

I gonna sleep rn

I hope no one make any conclucion rn

The thread definitely isn't going to be closed the moment you wake up, there are actually a lot of people who agrees here lmao

 

[Dog3352]

As you can see, there is no mention or incitement of elemental energy.

Ginkgo: In her hands, she held the very paper used to form our bodies. She whispered something into the pages... And then, suddenly, a paper frog was born, ready to leap into the world! Oh, it was spectacular!
Chestnut: Cut the theatrics, will you? You weren't even there...
Paimon: Wait, so... That's it? Paimon thought creation magic would have a little bit more... pizzazz.

They are all within the world, which is within the book, exists as a reality in the book, but, does not physically exist in real life.

Alice: When Durin of Simulanka made his wish to the Goddess of Fate, it just so happened that in a world far away, all of you wonderful people were holding a copy of M's fairytale at that exact moment.

Alice: And because of your noble and kind souls, you were selected by the Goddess of Fate to come and save this world.

The statements insinuate that the world does not physically exist.

This scan was clearly misinterpreted, as I already explained exactly about these "real fantasy" things, you can understand that obviously the worlds are not physical/real.
But, the main point of the error of interpretation is that the question is: "Which is more real, the fiction of the outside world, or the truth of this world?".

Basically, the question is whether the world created by Alice is more or less real than the fiction of the real world, which is answered by saying that the fiction of the real world and the world created by Alice are equally real, leaving even more obvious that the world created by Alice does not exist physically (it does not exist in reality), and it is as real as the fiction of the real world, which makes sense, since it does not exist in a literal/physical sense.

There is also what the narrator uses to explain this, he says: "Hear, hear. Who can be sure that the outside world isn't just a dream? And that when the dreamer wakes up, they won't just find themselves inside a novel?"

Basically, he indirectly compares Alice's world with a (not real) dream, which was a justification for why "real world fiction = world created by Alice (equally real)", by mentioning the real world as having the possibility of being a dream (something not real) using it as a justification/argument for both being equally real, he makes it obvious that the world created by Alice is not real, comparing it to a dream.

There is also no statement or anything like that that supports him existing in real life (physically).

This is my final comment plr now, since I'm going to school.

 

[Woomica]

is never stated that gg
Is a witch called Madame mage

you can actually provide a scan for that

 

[Sahlwrld]

is never stated that gg
Is a witch called Madame mage

"Madame Mage" Is not people's name lol

 

[Saqphire]

Alright, time for me to adress this downgrade aswell as all of the supporter's arguments/claims.

For starters, Genshin's general UES (elemental energy) thing doesn't really matter in the CRT, as there is no statement about witches using elemental energy or any type of energy in creating the world.

This entire CRT goes in the trash if the magic shown to be from the creator of the theatre falls under the UES. I believe Garrixian and Furina has shown this with logical and empirical evidence however I'm gonna adress the other arguments aswell

Simulanka, before being "created", was a story written by M.

The world was not created physically or in reality, it just caused the world to become a kind of "real fiction", not something that was created to be physical or that is physical, but rather, just a story/book that became more real (they stopped being just characters in books, and became thinking beings who don't totally follow the story), and the world became a "fictional reality", where it doesn't actually/physically exist, but, within the book, it is as if it were another reality/existed physically.

An example of this is that they entered the world through M's fairy tale book.

Which means that there is no real creation feat (that scales to AP or something), since the world does not physically exist, but just a hax of "pocket reality" inside a book, there is no evidence that Alice has so much power to do something like this in real life.

Wtf is this headcanon argument that a creation feat has to be "physically" created (whatever that even means) for it to scale to the user ? Creation, as far as wiki guidelines go, is creation, and saying what you are saying is moving the goalpost, and I know creation feats count as creation universally if we look at other verses with similar accepted feats like the Demon King's off-screen creation feat in Seven Deadly Sins or Gremmy's omnidirectional creation feat in Bleach (even though it's considered an outlier, it's still accepted as a feat so my point still stands)

Garrixian and Furina has already adressed the other arguments of the thread, so I will attack the supporters' arguments instead.

agree not to mention huge outlier for archons who has tier 6 feats consistently 4A is a massive outlier for them

For one the creation feats are massive outliers considering the highest destruction feats we got are Venti yeating a mountain and some earthquake feats (6-C to 6-B) and the highest physical feat we got is Zhongli cutting a mountain which would end up at like what? 7-B? This is a verse that treats throwing mountains and creating storms as impressive God Tier feats. Hell even looking at something like the sinners, who each possess 1/5th of a power to destroy the world and that was enough for Dain to consider them "transcendent beings" when all of them should be 4-A anyway by our current scale.

Like I said in the upgrade thread, AP and joules are not connected to DC and range/AOE, as established in the wiki multiple times; you saying "the archons have tier 6 feats consistently" is literally you establishing AP is DC and thus you're committing a fallacious argument

Crucially, note that in fiction, a character's Attack Potency (the energy a character can output and how powerful their attacks are) is not always equal to how much one can destroy or the area of effect one's attacks hold. In most fictional works, characters' attacks don't have to destroy a city to output energy equivalent to doing so or harm people with City level durability. For example, characters who can tank planets exploding upon them can get hurt when a more powerful person punches them through a building. Thus, a character possessing City level Attack Potency doesn't always mean their attacks can destroy cities.

A character with a certain degree of attack potency does not necessarily need to cause destructive feats on that level, but can cause damage to characters that can withstand such forces. As such it isn't proof of a low attack potency, if a character's attacks only cause a small amount of destruction.

Yes like I said elemental energy is magic based but not every form of magic is based on elements. This is why you can't scale the IT creation to elements, because it may have been done by magic but it wasn't done by elements

This is quite literally an appeal to possibility, where you're saying just because it's possible that the theatre wasn't created via an UES, it means the reasoning for how it was created with one is invalid no matter how (un)likely your proposed possibility is. In fact, this argument can be extended to the entire CRT since the basis of it is literally just; "it's possible the Hexenzirkel witch created the solar system with magic outside of the UES so it shouldn't be a feat because of it". However Furina and Garrixian have provided their argumentation with logical evidence that the creation would be within it, none of you have attacked that

Nobody makes the downgrade for 4-A previously, plus there are a lot of people who agrees here. So it's completely irrelevant.

?

That's not how the rule works bruh, this topic was adressed not even a week ago, and it's stated in the same paragraph that it's essential that the topic hasn't been adressed earlier with it even, and that the rule only applies to topics that haven't had an extensive debate about it. If this isn't an extensive debate then idk what to tell you my guy


Btw this is my one and only post on this matter, but put me up as disagree

 

[Puppet43]

you can actually provide a scan for that

Who the hell im gonna proof the negative assertion?

 

[Puppet43]

"Madame Mage" Is not people's name lol

Is the only title we know of her lol, n ot even her name

 

[Woomica]

Who the hell im gonna proof the negative assertion?

...what?

 

[GarrixianXD]

As I have already said and shown evidence, the term "magic" is not only used for elementary energy or elements, this has already been said, now it remains to be proven that creation magic uses elemental energy or even magical energy classified as UES (which is not the case of all magic), and not just some spell or another of the various terms for magic in Genshin (such as spells, which is even mentioned in the witches themselves).

Already mentioned before, and still none of this proves that Alice's creation magic uses elemental energy, only of mystical arts there are at least 4-5 that do not use elemental energy and are cited as magic, and even more from witches to two things mentioned (spells, and the word magic itself in wolfy's statement, which clearly from the context is not talking about elemental energy).

Was it explicitly stated that it the magic has no ties to elements? Again, elements are fundamental and therefore serve as rather type 2 information for Teyvat for the current state of Genshin. If you're going to push the claim that certain magic is unrelated to it, especially given that its already been shown attribution to various elements users, then you gotta put up solid evidence that it is indeed unrelated to elements. Barbeloth does use magic to cast her elements and she is a witch of Hexenzirkel, with that said, the witches of Hezenzirkel use elements as magic. Signora and Lisa are both witches of Genshin, and both use magic to cast their elements. Mona herself is even part of Hexenzirkel. Like I said before, elements are fundamental; with these details its already critically implying that that witches of Hexenzirkel uses magic as elements, and their method of creation would be based on their elemental power/magic.

Also, the Imaginarium Theatre wasn't even created by Alice but some random unnamed witch, who is inferior to that of Alice. Talking about this fact, it was explicitly mentioned that the Imaginarium Threatre once were fantastical stories, then it was later vitalised to become real, meaning that the Imaginarium Threatre is indeed a real realm.

The false sky has been a Genshin theory/statement for years, of course it will be mentioned, especially in history, as it is a very important element for the lore.

In addition to not having scans to support your words, I have already proven the opposite with scans (and this about Alice's creation magic in general, with Simunlaka mentioning that this is Alice's creation magic), the story itself makes it clear that the "real" part is about the world being basically a "fictional reality", basically a reality that is only a "physical reality" within the book itself, but that does not exist in real life (Simulnaka is the best example, being which is literally a world within the book, but does not exist outside of it or physically in real life).

I don't really see it, mind linking where you proved that the "physical reality" is only a part of the book? Simunlaka being Alice's creation magic doesn't have anything to do with it being confined in the fictional settings of a book.

Teyvat is regarded as the real world in the setting of Genshin, hence should not contain any fictional elements, thus rendering the statement "fiction of the real world" a contradictory term itself without much meaning on its own. The false sky and the buried secrets of Teyvat are the closest things to "fiction of the real world", as these are the only theories that pertain to the fake/unreal aspects of the real world. Fictional means fake/made up, with Scaramouche saying the sky was not real and a hoax it corresponds to the "fiction of the real world". What else do you expect it to be?

You should read the CRT properly, as I said, the "real" part when talking about Simulanka is the fact that it stopped being merely a story, and became a "fictional reality", a reality that doesn't exist at all. true in the real world, much less physically, but, within the book, it is "really" a reality, even the work states that the "Simulanka is as real as the fiction of the real world" and compares it to a dream.
This does not count as a feat of creation as it does not physically exist, but rather just a pocket dimension hax.

Your "fictional reality" claim doesn't seem to be properly indexed. Other than the scans displayed on the profiles that you used against the rating itself, which I already have addressed.