Genshin 4A downgrade...

[Puppet43]

..what?

you ask a proof of "Madame mage is not part of hex...." right?

 

[Woomica]

you ask a proof of "Madame mage is not part of hex...." right?

yes lol

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with Garrixian

 

[Mongus_Congus]

Agree

 

[Woomica]

I agree with Garrixian

I can agree with 4-A remaining legitimate feat, but agreeing to it scaling to archons and rest 4-A chars that we have for genshin is a big no, especially because i dont think that this scan that is used for justification is good enough because Venti himself denied their challenge even less that alice was defender of old mondstadt because other than that we have no info of anyone slightly comparable to witches.
The only person who can avoid this is Neuvilette because he rivals entire human realm in power which likely includes the hexenzirkel but i doubt thats the case too

 

[Giannysmag]

Like I said in the upgrade thread, AP and joules are not connected to DC and range/AOE, as established in the wiki multiple times; you saying "the archons have tier 6 feats consistently" is literally you establishing AP is DC and thus you're committing a fallacious argument

These Tier 7-5 feats are considered top tier within the verse, especially the sinners having world shattering power. Do you understand how absolutely miniscule a 5-B power up would be to a bunch of 4-A characters? Definately wouldn't be noteworthy enough for Dain to consider the sinners transcendent after gaining it. My point wasn't AP = DC, my point was that these characters treat these levels of power as increadibly impressive and it is thus very inconsistent to place them so far higher.

This is quite literally an appeal to possibility, where you're saying just because it's possible that the theatre wasn't created via an UES, it means the reasoning for how it was created with one is invalid no matter how (un)likely your proposed possibility is. In fact, this argument can be extended to the entire CRT since the basis of it is literally just; "it's possible the Hexenzirkel witch created the solar system with magic outside of the UES so it shouldn't be a feat because of it".

The burden of proof falls on you guys to show that it was done through elements, since that's the assumption the entire 4-A upgrade rested upon

However Furina and Garrixian have provided their argumentation with logical evidence that the creation would be within it, none of you have attacked that

I'm gonna say it for a third time, all elements are magic but not all magic are elements. Garri and Furina have only provided evidence to show that elements are magic and can be used through magic but there are several examples of other forms of magic in Genshin that don't rely on elements and thus wouldn't be covered by the UES. Until you prove that the creation feats where done through elemental magic they would not scale to the witches AP

 

[DivinumAeterna]

I can agree with 4-A remaining legitimate feat, but agreeing to it scaling to archons and rest 4-A chars that we have for genshin is a big no, especially because i dont think that this scan that is used for justification is good enough because Venti himself denied their challenge even less that alice was defender of old mondstadt because other than that we have no info of anyone slightly comparable to witches.
The only person who can avoid this is Neuvilette because he rivals entire human realm in power which likely includes the hexenzirkel but i doubt thats the case too

I feel like people here really don't want to acknowledge how stupid it is that just because a random Hexenzirkel Witch created the Imaginarium Theatre, that somehow reflects on and scales up the likes of Shenhe to Multi-Solar System bruh

 

[Woomica]

I feel like people here really don't want to acknowledge how stupid it is that just because a random Hexenzirkel Witch created the Imaginarium Theatre, that somehow reflects on and scales up the likes of Shenhe to Multi-Solar System bruh

after this crt is concluded i will fix the issues with other scalings in game

 

[Voidnether]

I can agree with 4-A remaining legitimate feat, but agreeing to it scaling to archons and rest 4-A chars that we have for genshin is a big no, especially because i dont think that this scan that is used for justification is good enough because Venti himself denied their challenge even less that alice was defender of old mondstadt because other than that we have no info of anyone slightly comparable to witches.
The only person who can avoid this is Neuvilette because he rivals entire human realm in power which likely includes the hexenzirkel but i doubt thats the case too

Nuke it the same way how High 1-C Emanators are nuked atp, the scaling pretty much sucks and tiers that differentiates them doesn't do anything if Cyno & Alhaitham & Shenhe are rated as "High God Tiers"

 

[Breakdown]

I didn’t agree with the ratings at first, but after reading Garrixian’s defense I do.

Elemental energy can change a realm of consciousness (This happened in the Traveller vs Shogun Fight), and the Plane of Euthymia is hardly different from Raiden Makoto’s realm of consciousness, and it is an actual spatial realm. This means that consciousness is entwined with elemental energy, so Alice’s magic being based on speaking and imagining wouldn’t violate it falling under UES as they both fall under consciousness. Same with Adepti stuff.

Put me down as disagree.

 

[GarrixianXD]

I can agree with 4-A remaining legitimate feat, but agreeing to it scaling to archons and rest 4-A chars that we have for genshin is a big no, especially because i dont think that this scan that is used for justification is good enough because Venti himself denied their challenge even less that alice was defender of old mondstadt because other than that we have no info of anyone slightly comparable to witches.
The only person who can avoid this is Neuvilette because he rivals entire human realm in power which likely includes the hexenzirkel but i doubt thats the case too

The scaling chain was more based on the military hierarchy ranks of Old Monstadt. Alice was a mere protector of it, while Decarabian was the leader of it; hence, Decarabian >> Alice. Barbatos defeated Decarabian, which also places him above Alice, hence why an "at least" rating for archons was implemented.

 

[Ar1216789]

I never though Tier 4 Genshin would become a reality

 

[Woomica]

The scaling chain was more based on the military hierarchy ranks of Old Monstadt. Alice was a mere protector of it, while Decarabian was the leader of it; hence, Decarabian >> Alice. Barbatos defeated Decarabian, which also places him above Alice, hence why an "at least" rating for archons was implemented.

okay but how can we be 100% sure shes as powerful 2000 years ago than she is now?

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

The scaling chain was more based on the military hierarchy ranks of Old Monstadt. Alice was a mere protector of it, while Decarabian was the leader of it; hence, Decarabian >> Alice. Barbatos defeated Decarabian, which also places him above Alice, hence why an "at least" rating for archons was implemented.

that might be the case but that scaling is weird notion-wise
because a great magician can be a librarian and that puts her in terms of military strength at low but we know this great magician Lisa is far stronger than any knight.

So being a mere protector doesn't assume that person is a fodder knight or military personnel.
Noelle isn't even a knight and she far exceeds anyone in the knight in terms of strength alone.

i believe people should be cautious when scaling via their ranks when ranks in general can be vague.

 

[DivinumAeterna]

The scaling chain was more based on the military hierarchy ranks of Old Monstadt. Alice was a mere protector of it, while Decarabian was the leader of it; hence, Decarabian >> Alice. Barbatos defeated Decarabian, which also places him above Alice, hence why an "at least" rating for archons was implemented.

We don't even know how Barbatos defeated Decarabian, not to mention the important fact that he was a very weak wind spirit and had the help of now-legendary heroes including Decarabian's literal former lover in the fight. So by all accounts Decarabian might as well have been defeated by a bunch of humans who then gave Barbatos the Gnosis. What we DO know is that Venti could cut and throw mountains with wind in an unspecified timeframe AFTER obtaining the Gnosis from the dead Decarabian.

Respectfully, this scaling makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[GarrixianXD]

okay but how can we be 100% sure shes as powerful 2000 years ago than she is now?

that might be the case but that scaling is weird notion-wise
because a great magician can be a librarian and that puts her in terms of military strength at low but we know this great magician Lisa is far stronger than any knight.

So being a mere protector doesn't assume that person is a fodder knight or military personnel.
Noelle isn't even a knight and she far exceeds anyone in the knight in terms of strength alone.

i believe people should be cautious when scaling via their ranks when ranks in general can be vague.

It wasn't mentioned when Simulanka and the Imaginarium Threatre was created either, or the establishment of the Nexenzirkel. Every detail about Alice's strength was also rooted in the past. I don't mind a scaling chain clarity CRT though, after this revision is concluded.

We don't even know how Barbatos defeated Decarabian, not to mention the important fact that he was a very weak wind spirit and had the help of now-legendary heroes including Decarabian's literal former lover in the fight. So by all accounts Decarabian might as well have been defeated by a bunch of humans who then gave Barbatos the Gnosis. What we DO know is that Venti could cut and throw mountains with wind in an unspecified timeframe AFTER obtaining the Gnosis from the dead Decarabian.

Respectfully, this scaling makes no sense whatsoever.

Boreas was known for the war he declared against Decarabian, and was even deemed as his nemesis. Barbatos is above Boreas, undoubtedly. Though, even with it aside, Barbatos being their equal or whatever, they'd still logically and ideally be above Alice, and Alice would also be ideally above the witch who created the Imaginarium Threatre.

 

[Breakdown]

To be fair, I don’t know if it is possible to prove that Alice’s power level changed over 2000 years either way.

 

[DivinumAeterna]

Boreas was known for the war he declared against Decarabian, and was even deemed as his nemesis. Barbatos is above Boreas, undoubtedly. Though, even with it aside, Barbatos being their equal or whatever, they'd still logically and ideally be above Alice, and Alice would also be ideally above the witch who created the Imaginarium Threatre.

Okay, even discounting whether they're all relative or not (especially disagree on Barbatos being above Boreas 'undoubtedly', since Boreas gave up on the Gnosis by his own decision), the Archons being above Alice 'ideally' may be the case, but certainly not 'logically' in any way. If you recall, Rhinedottir, a member of the Hexenzirkel, literally created Durin and Barbatos HAD to get Dvalin's help to defeat it, couldn't even solo it to save his entire country. So here we have the Witches' creations outcompeting Archons already.

Now, I AM assuming here that the Witches we know about are all relative between eachother (exception of Mona), but it's a more reasonable assumption to make than others, I personally believe.

 

[Breakdown]

Okay, even discounting whether they're all relative or not (especially disagree on Barbatos being above Boreas 'undoubtedly', since Boreas gave up on the Gnosis by his own decision), the Archons being above Alice 'ideally' may be the case, but certainly not 'logically' in any way. If you recall, Rhinedottir, a member of the Hexenzirkel, literally created Durin and Barbatos HAD to get Dvalin's help to defeat it, couldn't even solo it to save his entire country. So here we have the Witches' creations outcompeting Archons already.

Now, I AM assuming here that the Witches we know about are all relative between eachother (exception of Mona), but it's a more reasonable assumption to make than others, I personally believe.

Durin was made via Alchemy. That doesn’t scale to Rhinedottir.

 

[Giannysmag]

Durin was made via Alchemy. That doesn’t scale to Rhinedottir.

Alchemy is magic therefore it's part of the UES therefore Rhinedottir scales to Durin/j

 

[DivinumAeterna]

Durin was made via Alchemy. That doesn’t scale to Rhinedottir.

But a random Hexenzirkel witch creating Imaginarium Theatre scales other Genshin randos like Cyno to 4-A? Kek

 

[Woomica]

But a random Hexenzirkel witch creating Imaginarium Theatre scales other Genshin randos like Cyno to 4-A? Kek

they scales to god tiers for other reasons that didnt had anything to do with witches its just that everyone who had that tier got passed into 4-A without thinking

 

[DivinumAeterna]

they scales to god tiers for other reasons that didnt had anything to do with witches its just that everyone who had that tier got passed into 4-A without thinking

Well perhaps, I still personally believe it's more logical to assume the Witches should be baseline stronger than Archons, and thus they, the common 'gods', and people related to them should stay at Continental like they were for now (except Traveler, should be even lower, they're a complete fraud tbh) until something actually more substantial comes up the Genshin story pipeline. Archons and Adepti are basically fodder compared to Witches, Phanes, Shades, Heavenly Principles themselves, etc etc, not sure WHY Genshin scalers are rushing to get an upgrade so badly when it will naturally come later

 

[Sahlwrld]

Put me on Agree but only for characters that below Archons Level.

 

[Breakdown]

But a random Hexenzirkel witch creating Imaginarium Theatre scales other Genshin randos like Cyno to 4-A? Kek

People also don’t automatically scale to their creations.

 

[DivinumAeterna]

People also don’t automatically scale to their creations.

There are a lot of approved profiles of characters that scale highly only by virtue of their own inventions/creations. But even if it was true that Gold doesn't scale to her own creations at all (which I doubt, considering her stupidly incredible mastery over Khemia and being brought up on the same discussion level as Skirk's master), she clearly has the means, knowledge, and expertise of creating such powerful beings that potentially outscale powerful Archons, that still counts towards her power/tier. Hexenzirkel > Archons.

 

[Giannysmag]

People also don’t automatically scale to their creations.

Do you not see the irony of saying this while also agreeing with the 4-A rating?

 

[Puppet43]

yes lol

i cant proof a negative assertion

thats like asking me if unicorns are fakes, in other words you or other had to proof Madame mage is from the same group

 

[Woomica]

i cant proof a negative assertion

thats like asking me if unicorns are fakes, in other words you or other had to proof Madame mage is from the same group

im neutral assertion now give me scan and dont babble around, give scan...now

 

[Dog3352]

Wtf is this headcanon argument that a creation feat has to be "physically" created (whatever that even means) for it to scale to the user ? Creation, as far as wiki guidelines go, is creation, and saying what you are saying is moving the goalpost, and I know creation feats count as creation universally if we look at other verses with similar accepted feats like the Demon King's off-screen creation feat in Seven Deadly Sins or Gremmy's omnidirectional creation feat in Bleach (even though it's considered an outlier, it's still accepted as a feat so my point still stands)

Garrixian and Furina has already adressed the other arguments of the thread, so I will attack the supporters' arguments instead.

Furthermore, the object in question must be of physical nature. Energy beams and hard light are typically not considered quantifiable by this method.

Alice's creation does not really exist, it is not about being physical, but physically existing in the sense of being there, Alice's creation is specifically a pocket dimension feat that cannot be scaled, since there is no existence of UES, and the created world only exists as something fictional, it is not a real creation, whether physically or not, it is a world/reality that does not exist, it is something fictitious.

Rimuru WN had a 2-A and AP 2-B dimension, since there was no evidence of creation through UES, Alice is the same thing, but the created world does not actually exist.

This is quite literally an appeal to possibility, where you're saying just because it's possible that the theatre wasn't created via an UES, it means the reasoning for how it was created with one is invalid no matter how (un)likely your proposed possibility is. In fact, this argument can be extended to the entire CRT since the basis of it is literally just; "it's possible the Hexenzirkel witch created the solar system with magic outside of the UES so it shouldn't be a feat because of it". However Furina and Garrixian have provided their argumentation with logical evidence that the creation would be within it, none of you have attacked that

The logical arguments and evidence are basically that "everything described as magic = elemental energy", already refuted a long time ago in this CRT.

Was it explicitly stated that it the magic has no ties to elements? Again, elements are fundamental and therefore serve as rather type 2 information for Teyvat for the current state of Genshin. If you're going to push the claim that certain magic is unrelated to it, especially given that its already been shown attribution to various elements users, then you gotta put up solid evidence that it is indeed unrelated to elements. Barbeloth does use magic to cast her elements and she is a witch of Hexenzirkel, with that said, the witches of Hezenzirkel use elements as magic. Signora and Lisa are both witches of Genshin, and both use magic to cast their elements. Mona herself is even part of Hexenzirkel. Like I said before, elements are fundamental; with these details its already critically implying that that witches of Hexenzirkel uses magic as elements, and their method of creation would be based on their elemental power/magic.

Also, the Imaginarium Theatre wasn't even created by Alice but some random unnamed witch, who is inferior to that of Alice. Talking about this fact, it was explicitly mentioned that the Imaginarium Threatre once were fantastical stories, then it was later vitalised to become real, meaning that the Imaginarium Threatre is indeed a real realm.

Tell me where you found a statement that says anything about witches' magic being related to any type of energy, especially when it comes to elemental energy, being a "creation magic that basically the person speaks and the thing is created" It has no resemblance to elemental energy.
Him being fundamental doesn't mean he's involved in anything that exists, I didn't even show all the things that are also "magic" there are about 4-5 things that are called magic that don't use elemental energy, because creation magic of a witch, who has no resemblance to elemental energy, would use elemental energy? You literally have no evidence to understand a witch's creation magic with elemental energy.

Your first scan doesn't work, one proof less, her second scan just mentions that Mona is a magician, which doesn't prove anything, Mona always uses her vision in all her attacks and even in her astronomy, besides they are never even called of magic, unlike witches who use magic we don't know and spells, Mona just uses her knowledge and vision, they are totally different things.

Your latest scan doesn't refute anything I said.

I don't really see it, mind linking where you proved that the "physical reality" is only a part of the book? Simunlaka being Alice's creation magic doesn't have anything to do with it being confined in the fictional settings of a book.

The theater only exists for someone who is invited, it also does not prove to be exactly just a normal existence, we clearly go to a different place in our world, which can be seen through the living room window.

Teyvat is regarded as the real world in the setting of Genshin, hence should not contain any fictional elements, thus rendering the statement "fiction of the real world" a contradictory term itself without much meaning on its own. The false sky and the buried secrets of Teyvat are the closest things to "fiction of the real world", as these are the only theories that pertain to the fake/unreal aspects of the real world. Fictional means fake/made up, with Scaramouche saying the sky was not real and a hoax it corresponds to the "fiction of the real world". What else do you expect it to be?

What the hell are you talking about? Lmao. The reality of the book is considered "as real as the fiction of the real world", it is talking about fictional things that exist in the real world/teyvat (like books/story), not that the real world itself is fictional or has fictional elements, in addition to can also be compared to a dream.
Fictional elements are stories/books, we're not talking about fiction that exists in the world of Genshin, but rather things like books and stories that exist in the real world, which has nothing to do with what you said. The existence of the world is as real as the fiction of the real world (such as stories and books), and it is still compared to a dream, basically, it does not really exist.

Your "fictional reality" claim doesn't seem to be properly indexed. Other than the scans displayed on the profiles that you used against the rating itself, which I already have addressed.

You didn't address any of my scans.

 

[Dog3352]

The world was previously nothing more than a history book.

Old Journal: "Hmm... Why don't I write a story with origami animals as the main characters? Let's see... Once upon a time, in a magical Forest, there lived a group of animals made of paper..."

Even after its "creation", its existence is "equivalent to the fiction of the real world", and is still compared to a dream.

This scan was clearly misinterpreted, as I already explained exactly about these "real fantasy" things, you can understand that obviously the worlds are not physical/real.
But, the main point of the error of interpretation is that the question is: "Which is more real, the fiction of the outside world, or the truth of this world?".

Basically, the question is whether the world created by Alice is more or less real than the fiction of the real world, which is answered by saying that the fiction of the real world and the world created by Alice are equally real, leaving even more obvious that the world created by Alice does not exist physically (it does not exist in reality), and it is as real as the fiction of the real world, which makes sense, since it does not exist in a literal/physical sense.

There is also what the narrator uses to explain this, he says: "Hear, hear. Who can be sure that the outside world isn't just a dream? And that when the dreamer wakes up, they won't just find themselves inside a novel?"

Basically, he indirectly compares Alice's world with a (not real) dream, which was a justification for why "real world fiction = world created by Alice (equally real)", by mentioning the real world as having the possibility of being a dream (something not real) using it as a justification/argument for both being equally real, he makes it obvious that the world

And as if that weren't enough, the world still exists ONLY in the book, and not outside of it.

Alice: When Durin of Simulanka made his wish to the Goddess of Fate, it just so happened that in a world far away, all of you wonderful people were holding a copy of M's fairytale at that exact moment.

Alice: And because of your noble and kind souls, you were selected by the Goddess of Fate to come and save this world.

Alice's magic has been shown to be basically: She speaks a few words, and the thing is created.
With no mention of any kind of UES, as far as can be proven, it is just a "pocket dimension" hax.

Being that both the Simulanka and the theater space exist only within books;
there is no mention of UES or any type of energy for/in its creation;
Simulanka existence is compared to fiction and a dream (they don't exist, and this also counts for Theater, since as far as we know, they both probably use creation magic);
They do not meet any vbw criteria for scaling a "pocket dimension" to something other than just creation hax.

Clearly, the part where the "fantasy becomes more real", is just what I said, the world/reality "exists" as a "normal reality", but, ONLY inside the book, while from the outside, it would just be like a dream, something equivalent to fiction (it doesn't really exist).

 

[DivinumAeterna]

Afaik nobody has ever brought back any physical items from the witches' simulated worlds either. Even the toy medals you get from Imaginarium are self-contained and only traded for character poses, which are not material. Maybe these worlds are really just like a highly detailed 'vr game' these witches can make, so they could really create however many stars/galaxies they want but none of it is 'real' in the sense that it could physically affect Teyvat.

Visions in Simulanka don't work either, which can be explained by that the character's consciousness are just projecting inside the simulated worlds as avatars, but since it's just their consciousness being projected, the Visions aren't brought along and thus don't work besides having a visual representation.

Of course if there was a precendent of something from the witches' worlds making it outside into Teyvat, then I'd be glad to see it

 

[Dog3352]

Afaik nobody has ever brought back any physical items from the witches' simulated worlds either. Even the toy medals you get from Imaginarium are self-contained and only traded for character poses, which are not material. Maybe these worlds are really just like a highly detailed 'vr game' these witches can make, so they could really create however many stars/galaxies they want but none of it is 'real' in the sense that it could physically affect Teyvat.

Visions in Simulanka don't work either, which can be explained by that the character's consciousness are just projecting inside the simulated worlds as avatars, but since it's just their consciousness being projected, the Visions aren't brought along and thus don't work besides having a visual representation.

Of course if there was a precendent of something from the witches' worlds making it outside into Teyvat, then I'd be glad to see it

Basically that, the world even gives them all a role in the history of the world, like one being the hero of the world, another being a fairy, another being a queen, etc.

The theater wouldn't be exactly the same because it's not a story, but for example, the space that is "full of stars" shown in this scan is a space that you only enter after interacting with the book and being sent to fight, basically leaving Obviously the person entered the book.

 

[Breakdown]

Do you not see the irony of saying this while also agreeing with the 4-A rating?

Witch level Albedo now because Alchemy is falls under UES/j

 

[Breakdown]

There are a lot of approved profiles of characters that scale highly only by virtue of their own inventions/creations. But even if it was true that Gold doesn't scale to her own creations at all (which I doubt, considering her stupidly incredible mastery over Khemia and being brought up on the same discussion level as Skirk's master), she clearly has the means, knowledge, and expertise of creating such powerful beings that potentially outscale powerful Archons, that still counts towards her power/tier. Hexenzirkel > Archons.

So… Her inventions are more powerful than the weakest survivor of the Archon war. Neato.

 

[DivinumAeterna]

So… Her inventions are more powerful than the weakest survivor of the Archon war. Neato.

Yeah, a rotted and corrupted Khemia creation of a Khaenriah-era Rhinedottir overpowers the Barbatos who was active during the Cataclysm - do with that info what you will /shrug

 

[GarrixianXD]

Tell me where you found a statement that says anything about witches' magic being related to any type of energy, especially when it comes to elemental energy, being a "creation magic that basically the person speaks and the thing is created" It has no resemblance to elemental energy.
Him being fundamental doesn't mean he's involved in anything that exists, I didn't even show all the things that are also "magic" there are about 4-5 things that are called magic that don't use elemental energy, because creation magic of a witch, who has no resemblance to elemental energy, would use elemental energy? You literally have no evidence to understand a witch's creation magic with elemental energy.

I actually did. And you still haven't disapproved of why my line of logic is wrong.

Your first scan doesn't work, one proof less, her second scan just mentions that Mona is a magician, which doesn't prove anything, Mona always uses her vision in all her attacks and even in her astronomy, besides they are never even called of magic, unlike witches who use magic we don't know and spells, Mona just uses her knowledge and vision, they are totally different things.

First scan link: https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/w... offense to being called a "witch" at all.[8]

The second scan literally says Mona is a mage and a part of Hexenzirkel. Mona uses magic every time she casts her hydro powers, just like every catalyst user.

The theater only exists for someone who is invited, it also does not prove to be exactly just a normal existence,

Any proof that it is still a fictional existence, other than it being based on a story plot? Despite the world itself was transformed and said to be no longer fiction.

we clearly go to a different place in our world, which can be seen through the living room window.

Okay uh, what is this supposed to infer?

What the hell are you talking about? Lmao. The reality of the book is considered "as real as the fiction of the real world", it is talking about fictional things that exist in the real world/teyvat (like books/story), not that the real world itself is fictional or has fictional elements, in addition to can also be compared to a dream.
Fictional elements are stories/books, we're not talking about fiction that exists in the world of Genshin, but rather things like books and stories that exist in the real world, which has nothing to do with what you said. The existence of the world is as real as the fiction of the real world (such as stories and books), and it is still compared to a dream, basically, it does not really exist.

Books, stories and fictional media aren't "fictional aspects" of the real world. The fictional world does not exist in the real world. It is merely something that man made-up for entertainment, comes in the form of media, but there is absolutely no way that fictional content is part of the world. Hence, why it is even called "fictional" in the first place. In summary, books are not fictional things, it is rather shapes of matter that have a story written into their pages. There are no fictional things in the real world, making that term itself rather make no sense.

As for it to be compared to a dream, I'm pretty sure the Traveller and Nilou, even Paimon would notice it, and even have dreamscape effects. It wasn't explicitly said it was a dream either. It's rather unlikely to be a dream. Not to mention it is mentioned to be a "real fantasy".

You didn't address any of my scans.

I'm struggling to see that you indexed any. Provide your evidence with blue links.

 

[Tyri456]

I disagree with the downgrade, there is clear indication of magic being part of energy system, and that’s the most logic conclusion as well, to me it seems a cope out trying to dismiss it for the sake of “more consistent lower rating” at this point it would be better argue for an outlier, the wiki is full of random gods getting creation rating with even less proof, but magic is definitely part of the energy system and thus scale, however I do disagree with anything lower than an archon scaling.

 

[Valxxroyz]

Isnt there's a scans with 2 big stars?
Im with Garrixian.

 

[Sahlwrld]

I disagree with the downgrade, there is clear indication of magic being part of energy system, and that’s the most logic conclusion as well, to me it seems a cope out trying to dismiss it for the sake of “more consistent lower rating” at this point it would be better argue for an outlier, the wiki is full of random gods getting creation rating with even less proof, but magic is definitely part of the energy system and thus scale, however I do disagree with anything lower than an archon scaling.

Ikr, it should be only Archons level to deserve the 4-A such as Dragon Sovereign, Top 3 Harbingers, Hexenzirkel, Skirk and Narwhal for now because their profile is there.
Anyone like Adeptus level such as Xiao, Shenhe, Cyno and other is only 6-B at max, as well as Harbingers below top 3 like Scara and Arlecchino.