General issue about "all the verse powers"

[StrymULTRA]

Alright, just leave a message on my wall when you can.

No worries, we're also still talking about how to simplify Arceus Plates tabbers, there's no rush at all.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I could finally get able to modify properly profliles so I've adjusted a bit Arceus' sandbox to make it more easy to read, removing all the redundant stuff. Can it be improved more or is now fine?

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

What do the rest of you think?

 

[Bobsican]

In the same way I'm also not sure on scaling abilities from each species to Arceus given that those aren't necessarily bound to a type and would probably need a bit more backing up for that, especially considering that several moves interact with types but not abilities (Soak, Forest's Curse, Trick-or-Treat) or just abilities but not the type (Gastro Acid, Skill Swap, Role Play), and of course most abilities don't interact with the types at all and just are "secondary" interactions (Magic Guard, Unaware, Intimidate).
The only move that interacts with both is Transform, which just copies both plus the statistics from a target, and so it's clear that a type and an ability are separate things that shouldn't be equalized, this is also further supported by Burn Up removing the user's Fire type but not the ability.

Some justification for the plates being the source of all Pokémon powers (and more importantly them somehow covering more than types themselves if that's the case) and all could also use a scan to justify it, I keep getting enought issues off-site when I present seriously Pokémon pages without those.

I'm still concerned about this, and while something was brought up in the Discord server over Pokémon content regarding this in terms of justification (The japanese text over the plates says "The born Pokémon share the power of the plates. The holder of the Plate, by holding it, can change is various ways" or so), it's still too vague to claim that it has all abilities from a glance, especially with no portrayal whatsoever doing so, and it requiring more assumptions to cherry-pick whatever effects (Truant, Wonder Guard...) makes it more unreasonable than to just dismiss this possibility as said in the image.

 

[Antvasima]

Bobsican seems to make valid points.

 

[StrymULTRA]

The japanese text over the plates says "The born Pokémon share the power of the plates. The holder of the Plate, by holding it, can change is various ways" or so

Do you have the jap text?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Also, Bob, you're derailing, no offense. This is a thing about stuff already accepted, this is not a CRT about removing Arceus powers. If you want to do so, then make a CRT after the new sandbox is applied, this isn't the place to argue for it.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Never mind then.

 

[Bobsican]

Do you have the jap text?

Uh, no, I got that from the server as you may be well-aware already.
In any case, it seems I got better explanations, but even then some stuff may still be questionable, but that's for another thread, yes, but it's still within the topic of this thread to ensure the pages involved get proper explanations.

 

[Elizhaa]

Thank you. It seems fine to me.

I did make some minor updates on the creator's profile and Maria's profile; if it is still fine, I will make the changes later.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that only the higher order powers seem necessary to list. As an incorporeal abstract entity with no actual form, The Creator having shapeshifting listed seems very out of place, for example.

 

[Elizhaa]

I think that only the higher order powers seem necessary to list. As an incorporeal abstract entity with no actual form, The Creator having shapeshifting listed seems very out of place, for example.

I see; in the verse, it was clarified that higher-order beings like witches shapeshifted their form to be human. I do think in the context of the verses it could be fine.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Yes, higher-order beings in Umineko have no true physical form, but they can ''appear'' according to their own feelings

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Elizhaa]

I will make the changes, then.
Edit: done.

 

[Ovy7]

Immortality Type 8 and 9 should be taken out from Creator's profile, those don't really make any sense for him with the context from the series (especially Type 9).

 

[Antvasima]

I have done so.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Bump to check the situation with PMMM and Root

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

The context of the plates kinda of make hard to decide which is to exclude tho. I'll talk to other Pokémon supporters to decide which to keep and remove.

Idk why are all just talking about the plates. The argument about why (at least I) purposed/accepted the abilties as part of Arceus' hax was the Arceus Myth, which says that at the beginning, all pokemon, humans, space and time were part of the original one

 

[StrymULTRA]

Can we stop talking about Arceus here? It's already done.

 

[Regidian]

Just to tell but with Yuri not being here, the thing for the Root/Shiki will be more long that it's already is (+ me not having a pc currently)

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Lonkitt]

I've got nothing to add. I've read the OP and I just wanna say that issue has been bugging me for ages so I'm glad it's being pointed out

 

[Bobsican]

Although it still appears that over half of the complaints have gone nowhere (Even if accepted) out of no CRTs being done on this regard for the affected cases.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Although it still appears that ever half of the complaints have gone nowhere (Even if accepted) out of no CRTs being done on this regard for the affected cases.

Pretty much this sadly.

 

[Regidian]

For nasu case, yuri was not here for a long time so we wasn't able to continue, this + university

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody remind us what we need to do here please?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Can somebody remind us what we need to do here please?

Basically to list all the Powers and Abilities that a Supreme bing would gain from having all the P&As of their verse. This is applying to the following characters now.

• Madoka Kaname (3rd key)
• Ryougi Shiki (2nd key)
• Swirl of the Root
• Will of the Honkai
• Scion (Worm) (2nd key)

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I think that only the more relevant powers should be listed in that case, not the unnecessary ones (hair-manipulation, water walking, and the like.)

 

[Bobsican]

Well, users check a powers and abilities section to see what powers and abilities a character has, we don't skip powers out of being unecessary if they were worth indexing in the first place, which would apply here given such powers were indexed in the exact same way in another page in this case.
As usual powers that'd be redundant could be skipped, however.

 

[Antvasima]

Redundant powers for that scale is what I was referring to.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

I don't get the point of this.

This does nothing but artificially bloat pages with information that is already present on the wiki. If people are really too lazy to read the other pages or, god forbid, ask what powers are important to the matchup, that's their problem.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I don't get the point of this.

This does nothing but artificially bloat pages with information that is already present on the wiki. If people are really too lazy to read the other pages or, god forbid, ask what powers are important to the matchup, that's their problem.

All right go read every single Nasuverse page and have an in-depth knowledge of all of the powers in the verse when making a matchup. Be my guest.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Tell me, who the **** is even making matches with Void Shiki? Nobody? Exactly.

These characters rarely get matches for a wide variety of reasons, with this as a contributing factor. Adding another 100k bytes to their page is not helping anything.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Tell me, who the **** is even making matches with Void Shiki? Nobody? Exactly.

These characters rarely get matches for a wide variety of reasons, with this as a contributing factor. Adding another 100k bytes to their page is not helping anything.

There are actually quite a few Void Shiki matches that turned into stomps because lo and behold, some hax wasn't listed on her file.

We are also an indexing wiki, it is completely unreasonable to just tell a passerby to go read like 50+ pages just to figure out what all powers one single key for one single character has.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Oh and uh Length is a terrible argument

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

There are actually quite a few Void Shiki matches that turned into stomps because lo and behold, some hax wasn't listed on her file.

We are also an indexing wiki, it is completely unreasonable to just tell a passerby to go read like 50+ pages just to figure out what all powers one single key for one single character has.

Then, pray tell, why didn't people simply ask? I'm sure there's someone who has memorized everything that is more than willing to tell them.

It's also completely unreasonable to reiterate an obnoxious amount of information that is already on the wiki. Why exactly do you think verse-specific powers exist?

Oh and uh Length is a terrible argument

That page is bloated by overly long descriptions and more than a few superfluous page sections, Just because it exists and I'm not actively railing on it doesn't mean I'm ok with it.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Spoiler alert: there isn't. Much of the knowledge on Nasuverse is spread across the various works of Nasu himself, and anyone who had that kind of knowledge is long gone. And for other verses, to assume one person has actually memorized all the P&A for every character and every ability is also, get this, completely unreasonable.

"Waaaah page long" isn't an argument, it's an excuse born of laziness. And you wanna know the funny thing? It's actually MORE of a hassle to open every page for a verse like Parahumans, or Nasuverse, or Puella Magia!

 

[Shmooply]

Reaper, you're acting a bit hostile there...
I think that putting all of the abilities in some blog would be better, to prevent making the profiles cluttered and what-not. How many profiles with this issue need to be fixed again?