General Dead Apostles Upgrade

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

All the Dead Apostle profiles are missing a key ability inherent to all of them. This is understandable, since the new ability seems to have been applied by Strange Fake, but applies to all of the known Dead Apostles, and presumably True Ancestors. You can read the chapter where the ability is explained here . The manga they come from doesn't let you download scans, hence I am linking the full chapter. I've written out a quick description that can be added as a bullet point under the Dead Apostle part of the Notable Techniques and Abilities section.

• Denier of Human History: Dead Apostles are beings diametrically opposed to Heroic Spirits. While servants uphold, protect, and support human civilization, Dead Apostles exist to defile the laws of man. Legendary treasures born from the hands of humanity will have their "divine protection" destroyed. However, this does not apply to the weapons created by the gods themselves. Unless Legendary Treasures and Noble Phantasms are wielded by the proper "Emissary of The Throne," they will be totally useless against dead apostles. The weapons either glance off with no effect or crumble to dust.

I think the only folks this would not apply to are those Dead Apostles that are also servants, such as Carmilla. Vlad would likely get it despite his heroic spirit status since he gains most of the proper Dead Apostle abilities for himself. Let me know if there are any other Dead Apostles who should not get this ability. I'm not sure what exactly you would call this ability other than "Denying History" or perhaps law hax. I'm open to ideas, but I think the simplest/clearest option would be to just leave this description and not worry about the Powers and Abilities section.

 

[Makkurona]

I think Carmilla/Eli is exception because they are vampires due to distortions and legends, not actual DAs. Vlad, he is too because Legend of Dracula makes him only the vampire of legends Dracula because of distortions in history, not actual DA.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Legend of Dracula still makes him a DA though, it even gives him the vampire unique stuff like the special mystic eyes and the skills

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Ok, so I guess Vlad would get the attributes, but Liz and Carmilla would not

 

[Makkurona]

He is similar to a DA, but not an actual, genuine one. His form as vampire is out of a fictional legend, not fact. Imo it will not include him in the rules of "Denier of Human History"

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

We could add a trailing sentence that its questionable if he actually has this ability

 

[AnonymousBlank]

I don't see why they wouldn't get it considering they have only faced NPs used by Servants so its not like they have the oppurtunity to showcase such abilities. Their distortion and Vlad's is basically the same.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Yeah, that's a good point.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Unless I remember something wrong, Vlad's NP itself points out that he's not an Apostle by any means. Things like mystic eyes are more based on the legends, which would of course refer in some way to actual apostles.

He even has abikities specifically unrelated, like becoming mist and transforming.

I am neutral though, so adding or just giving a footnote that is dubious he has the ability works I guess.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I'm pretty up in the air about Vlad getting it imo. The only people he fought were servants so thetr is no way to determine if he had it or not

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Asdding it as a possibly can work then.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Where is it said that Vlad with LoD is a DA? Both Lancer and Berserker versions have zero such mentions of this, and considering the relationship between DAs and HS, with one being reliant on human history to even exist, this seems unnecessary for Servants with vampiric connections to have.

 

[Makkurona]

That's what i've been saying. Even Vlad Berserker denies that he is a genuine Dead Apostle, but a hero into vampire distorted by legends.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Then why are people arguing about putting a Possibly ____ note in a profile that it does not apply to? You'd think that his mats would have at least mentioned it somewhere, but apparently it's okay to guess a random note out of nowhere. It even fails the actual test of the note, where Vlad as a HS is opposed to DAs but he's suddenly given DA status for no reason.

 

[Solacis]

Regis is right. There's no "possibly" about it when the profile and NP descriptions specifically say that he isn't a genuine DA.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Wow that overseer just splashing coffee in a Dead Apostle's face when he tries to talk, what a ******* boss

 

[AshenCrow777]

That overseer had a giant pair of balls on him....


But not as big as Richard Lionheart straight up asking Gil for weapons lols and gloating about having Enkidu as a friend.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Where is it said that Vlad with LoD is a DA? Both Lancer and Berserker versions have zero such mentions of this, and considering the relationship between DAs and HS, with one being reliant on human history to even exist, this seems unnecessary for Servants with vampiric connections to have.

They say he is "in nature similar to a Dead Apostle." I'm rather up in the air on if she should get it, but the materials already make it clear that he gains certain abilities of Dead Apostles, like Curse of Restoration and Mystic Eyes of Enchantment, due to association with Vampires.

Even if you disagree, don't pretend like there is no grounding at all for him to have such an ability. Its intelectually dishonest.

 

[AshenCrow777]

Wait but isn't vlad a straight up dead apostle just by being a vampire??? Since dead apostles are just a variant of vampires but still are...

 

[Makkurona]

Similiar =/= is one. He just behaves similiar to one and shows similar abilities, but not on conceptual and fundamental levels.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

They share a similar nature (which is stated by the material, it isnt just a coincidence), which is enough for him to gain the abilities of one. Things like the time rewind regen or mystic eyes are too specific for him to get from just the legend, so it is clear he can gain the abilities by association. I think "possibly" is the best bet

 

[John985]

On the mats it said this.

Legend of Draculea - Folklore of Flesh Blood Rank: A+ Type: Anti-Unit (self) Range: -
Max Targets: 1 perso
Makes him embody the image of Dracula born from later oral tradition, transforming him into a vampire.
Upon turning into Count Dracula, in exchange for sealing away his normal Skills and Noble Phantasm, Vlad III acquires a drastic amplification of physical abilities, special powers such as changing shapes into mist or animals, healing abilities, mystic eyes of fascination and weakness to sunlight and holy symbols.

I think it needs to be check, because Im not sure if the wording is right in the translation. https://imgur.com/uHxw1Jr

But his page on tm wiki it says this.

"being of a similar nature to Dead Apostles."

Im more on possibly.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Inventing powers based off unverified lines and "possiblies" is not accurate and so far nothing has been shown that Vlad should get this note at all. There is no best bet with a "possibly" here, it is just making stuff up.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Pro being considered DA: - Possesses both curse of restoration and Mystic Eyes of Enchantment. - Has both a weaknesses for light and holy sacraments like DA, the Black Keys that shouldn't even inconvenience a normal Servant from Shirou could pin him down.

Against being considered one: - His bite turning people into vampires doesn't work at all like normal DA turning. - Has abilities unrelated to what DA can do (leaving aside that they can learn specific abilities by magecraft or other means) - No stated connection in anyway to the Moon, a big characteristic of DA. - Kinda related to the above, DA Regenerationn gets better with the phases of the moon. Roa could only regenerate from ankles because there was a full moon, when DA are strongest. No correlation is made between Vlad's Regen and the moon phase.

Possibly is the most I could go for, but again am rather neutral.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Possibly isn't acceptable when the narration outright states Vlad isn't a Dead Apostle, but the more famous concept of vampire from Dracula stories and subsequent inspirations.

Fate Apocrypha Volume 2 Chapter 3-15 said:

"If it was before he became a vampire, it probably would have destroyed his spiritual core like normal and killed him."

Bats gathered together and combined together into the form of a person.

"But what stands before us is not Lancer of Black, Vlad III. It is the creature known and feared throughout the world—a vampire."

Vampires called Dead Apostles existed in this world. Some slipped in among people and sucked their blood while others remained in isolation without coming into contact with anyone, but either way, Dead Apostles possessed their own unique concepts and culture and lived quietly in the shadows of the world.

Right now, the one in front of the gathered Servants wasn't such a vampire. In terms of the concept of mystery, it was only a hundred years old. But the terror of it covered the entire world. When people heard the word 'vampire', what they first thought of wasn't the Dead Apostles who hide themselves from the rest of the world, but the one who had been created using the great hero of Romania, Vlad III, as a base—the 'vampire Dracula'.

 

[TypeVampire]

Against it for reasons above.

 

[TypeVampire]

Plus denying human history didn't save Vlad Extra from the Extra protags.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Yeah, I disagree with Vlad having this.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I'm gonna be real, I don't really give a shit if Vlad gets it or not, so can we add this to all the other dead apostles?

 

[Makkurona]

For other DAs, i guess yes

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

No reason not to, it's pretty damn explicit. Like, Six Gun revolver dude isn't even an Ancestor and I do believe most if not all of our DA profiles are ancestors, so it totally scales to them.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I'll go ahead and add it in a bit then

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I think I have added it to all of the Dead Apostles, although I might have missed some of the ones from outside Tsukuhime and Melty Blood, if there are any