General DC Comics Discussion Thread

[Hecky2222]

Hey, i'll be bumping this as no actual argument for batman came up until now

I will respond tmrw

 

[Nonynho]

I will respond tmrw

Thanks!

 

[Elizio33]

Since I talked about Perpetua, i want to call out some few things(I am lazy to CRT over minor stuff)
Her true state keys tells this
> Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1; Comparable to her sons)
Meanwhile somewhat Her Diminished State can overpower her sons

It makes no sense to me she having some ability in "her true form" only whereas narratively it was shown she can overpower her sons in diminished state. And btw her opponent who fought him has somewhat this ability but she doesn't lol


Her true form rather has different CM since she was stated to draw powers from Source itself(thus scales to it technically in true form)


So NPI for Information 2 and CM1, as well as CM1, Info 2 should be added to her profile

I propose this for Perpetua:

Perpetua

Tier: High 1-A | High 1-A | At least High 1-A

Keys: Within the Multiverse (Diminished State) | Within the Multiverse (Original Creator State) | True State (Hand of the Source)

Attack Potency: High Outerverse level (Vastly superior to her three children, who were forced to merge into the Ultra-Monitor in order to oppose her. After recovering most of her power, she reasserted dominance over the Multiverse and exerted influence into the Sixth Dimension through the Crisis-aligned energies of the Totality, drawing upon them to systematically reshape and destroy creation. During this process, Hypertime and the Speed Force suffered severe collateral damage, and her conflict with the Darkest Knight raged across all facets of reality and threatened to collapse of the remaining Multiverse and the Bleed) | High Outerverse level (Superior to her diminished state prior to her imprisonment within the Source Wall by the Cosmic Raptor, and corrupted and weaponized the core of her Multiverse against the other Hands through Crisis-aligned energies derived from the Totality) | At least High Outerverse level (As the Hand of Creation witnessed by Krona at the Dawn of Time, Perpetua directly participated in the formation of creation itself, shaping its structure through the energies of the Totality bestowed upon her by the Source. Through this power, she generated the Big Bang that gave rise to the Multiverse and fundamental aspects of existence such as the Endless. As one of the cosmic Hands, she completely transcends the Divine Continuum who are tasked with shaping Multiverses across the void)

Two In-Multiverse States are bound to the structure of the Multiverse and its rules. The difference lies in the fact that the Diminished State depends on the Crisis-aligned energies of the Totality to fuel her power; without them, she has lost her power, and she had to go through one universe after another to see if they aligns with Doom’s ideology or not because they were still realities refusing to side with Doom. As for its Original Creator State, her Multiverse was populated by Apex Predators who governed reality, whose core had been altered against The Source by the Crisis-aligned energies of the Totality, and she spent thousands of years to build her army of Apex Predators against The Hands.

 

[PromptedElephant641]

Doctor Manhattan’s residual power being used by the Justice League to fight against a Crisis Energy-powered Perpetua should not necessarily prove that Doctor Manhattan himself is more powerful than the Darkest Knight.

Within Death Metal, Doctor Manhattan is described by Wally West as a being “brimming” with Anti-Crisis Energy. This energy is portrayed as a connective force tied to memory, history, shared existence, and the continuity of all stories throughout the Multiverse. Unlike Crisis Energy, which divides through fear, anger, and separation, Connective Energy functions by uniting timelines, generations, and experiences across existence itself.

Therefore, Doctor Manhattan's residual Anti-Crisis Energy, collected by the Quintessence after his attempt to repair reality, is not reduced to a mere fraction of his personal raw power. By the time it is used during the events leading into Death Metal, it has become intertwined with the Multiverse’s shared continuity. Anti-Crisis Energy is framed as being generated through unity via memory and history, linking all actions, past, present, future throughout history.

As such, Wonder Woman’s ability to contend with Perpetua should not be interpreted as straightforward evidence that a small residual fragment of Manhattan’s personal power scales above Perpetua or the Darkest Knight. The Anti-Crisis Energy she wields functions as a larger force, linked to existence and continuity, acting as a conceptual counterweight to Crisis Energy.

Therefore, the feat should not be treated purely as a raw scaling statement about Doctor Manhattan, but instead as a conceptual interaction between opposing principles within the narrative of Death Metal.

To make it simple: Anti-Crisis Energy is generally by unity through shared existence. The “leftover” Anti-Crisis Energy is thus not just a simple fragment of Doctor Manhattan’s power, but a continuity-based force that becomes amplified/intertwined with the Multiverse’s shared history and the Justice League's unity.

I am reposting my reply to your comment as it got drown out by the unexpected amount of activity that has occurred in this discussion in the past day:

So in this system, is it that any amount of Crisis or Anti-Crisis energy can essentially be turned into its own infinite supply based on how much significance it has (narrative, history, memory)? In this particular instance would it be correct to say that the certain amount of residual Anti-Crisis energy left over by Doctor manhattan's efforts, due to its narrative importance (it was originally used in an attempt to repair all the damage done by all of the significant crisis events) could grow to meet the needs of Wonder Woman to take on Perpetua, but she hesitated and as such failed. I suppose this makes sense.

My other concern with stating that The Darkest Knight is equal to Doctor Manhattan is that it is never assumed that alternate versions of a character are equal to the main version in power as there countless examples of this not being the case. Even though the body that TBWL takes is stated to be a copy of Doctor Manhattan and has his abilities, this does not mean that they are at the same level. Your interpretation of how Crisis and Anti-Crisis energy works as a narrative force seems consistent and provides a reasoning as to why Doctor Manhattan's residual energy does not necessarily make him stronger. It is also just as likely that the real Doctor Manhattan is just a unique being or that he is simply more powerful just as the main universe Superman is far stronger than Red Son Superman.

Overall it does not impact things too drastically. 1.) Either Doctor Manhattan and base for Darkest Knight are EQUAL and BELOW Post Year of the Villain / Death Metal Perpetua or 2.) The original Doctor Manhattan is unique in his nature and is more powerful than Crisis Energy amped Darkest Knight and Post Year of the Villain / Death Metal Perpetua.

Additionally: Barry Allen, when retelling the history of the DC universe from its beginnings all the way up until the start of the ALL IN era, states: "Dr. Manhattan, a traveler from an alternate universe, was by far the most powerful entity we had ever encountered" - New History of the DC Universe Vol1 #4. (Broadly speaking this statement is not true, more powerful beings than Doctor Manhattan have interacted with the superheroes of Earth though perhaps Barry is unaware of these events. It still is extremely relevant as Barry is of course aware of powerful beings like Perpetua and The Darkest Knight, which are both mentioned in his history of the DC universe, and yet he states this about Doctor Manhattan)

I propose this for Perpetua:

Perpetua

Tier: High 1-A | High 1-A | At least High 1-A

Keys: Within the Multiverse (Diminished State) | Within the Multiverse (Original Creator State) | True State (Hand of the Source)

Attack Potency: High Outerverse level (Vastly superior to her three children, who were forced to merge into the Ultra-Monitor in order to oppose her. After recovering most of her power, she reasserted dominance over the Multiverse and exerted influence into the Sixth Dimension through the Crisis-aligned energies of the Totality, drawing upon them to systematically reshape and destroy creation. During this process, Hypertime and the Speed Force suffered severe collateral damage, and her conflict with the Darkest Knight raged across all facets of reality and threatened to collapse of the remaining Multiverse and the Bleed) | High Outerverse level (Superior to her diminished state prior to her imprisonment within the Source Wall by the Cosmic Raptor, and corrupted and weaponized the core of her Multiverse against the other Hands through Crisis-aligned energies derived from the Totality) | At least High Outerverse level (As the Hand of Creation witnessed by Krona at the Dawn of Time, Perpetua directly participated in the formation of creation itself, shaping its structure through the energies of the Totality bestowed upon her by the Source. Through this power, she generated the Big Bang that gave rise to the Multiverse and fundamental aspects of existence such as the Endless. As one of the cosmic Hands, she completely transcends the Divine Continuum who are tasked with shaping Multiverses across the void)

Two In-Multiverse States are bound to the structure of the Multiverse and its rules. The difference lies in the fact that the Diminished State depends on the Crisis-aligned energies of the Totality to fuel her power; without them, she has lost her power, and she had to go through one universe after another to see if they aligns with Doom’s ideology or not because they were still realities refusing to side with Doom. As for its Original Creator State, her Multiverse was populated by Apex Predators who governed reality, whose core had been altered against The Source by the Crisis-aligned energies of the Totality, and she spent thousands of years to build her army of Apex Predators against The Hands.

I think that Perpetua should have 4 keys as I have discussed a few times:

Diminished State (Weakened) - High-1A: Perpetua at her lowest state is still comparable though ultimately superior to the Ultra Monitor, the empowered fusion of the Three Monitor Brothers. Even after just waking, she considered the actions of the World Forger in the Sixth Dimension, to rewrite all of existence such that it is realigned to Justice, to be merely “the action of a fearful child.”

Diminished State (Post Year of the Villain / Death Metal) - High-1A: Perpetua in this state has grown noticeably in power since being freed and would go on to absorb Crisis Energy from the Dark Multiverse. She fought and was roughly comparable to The Crisis Energy amped Darkest Knight even while weakened from having her Crisis Energy stolen and used to empower her rival. The Darkest Knight had also stolen energy Doctor Manhattan imbued into the Mobius Chair in order to further enhance his power, yet they were comparable through the majority of their fight. Higher with Crisis Energy: Even after having her Crisis Energy cut off and redirected to her opponent, The Darkest Knight, she was still roughly comparable though very slightly inferior to him. She remarks that they are both running out of energy even though he had stolen multiple sources of energy to fight her. His victory was a narrow one even with his power ups. Had Perpetua's supply of Crisis Energy not been taken away she easily would have won as she was nearly equal to The Darkest Knight without it.

Diminished State (Full Power - The Original Multiverse Pre Cosmic Raptor Defeat) - High-1A: Perpetua in this state is at the PINNACLE of her IN CREATION capability. It was in this form, after she had left her role as a Hand and descended from the Greater Omniverse, that she created the Sixth Dimension and her Sixth Dimensional Sons the Three Monitor Brothers. Perpetua in this state created all of existence including the Death Son itself (The abstraction that is the end of everything in the Divine Continuum including all of its stories all contained in one place) that killed The Crisis Energy amped Darkest Knight just by being pushed into it. She accomplished all of this with her thoughts, crafting Creation to meet her own designs rather than what was intended for her kind. As a result of her actions, fundamental forces of existence, including versions of The Endless, manifested within her Creation. The full capacity of Creation is so vast that even with the full extent of his power, before divesting it in four different ways, Doctor Manhattan was not capable of fixing existence in its entirety. (NOTE: Perpetua also gets plot manipulation due to creating the Death Son which is the singularity at the end of the history of the Divine Continuum both containing all stories and where all stories inevitably end up). Far Higher with Preparation: Perpetua would go on to plot and accumulate power unopposed for more than Five Billion Years until she started to make her Apex Predators after which her sons finally started to feel distrustful of her intentions and would eventually turn against her. After 250,000 years, each Apex Predator was weaker though comparable to any individual member of the Monitor Brothers Trio. This is the state that she was is in just before she was defeated by the Cosmic Raptor, sealed away in the Source Wall with her infinite army of Apex Predators, and separated from her power. Then her Creation was rebooted and changed to further weaken and reduce her by turning Creation away from Doom towards Justice once again as was intended for all of her kind to pursue.
NOTE: NOBODY scales to this key.
NOTE: The title of this key is a work in progress. I suppose it could simply be called "Diminished State: Full Power" or simply "Full Power" for convenience.

True State (Hand of the Source) - High-1A: As a Hand, she is a being of the Greater Omniverse itself, she entirely transcends the infinite Creations she and her fellow Hand's have made throughout the Greater Omniverse. Members of the Hands must descend into Creations (which is what her third key portrays). Anti-Crisis Wonder Woman could not even perceive a descended member of the Hands until it took on a form for her to comprehend.

I don't think that her Key as a Hand of the Source should have "at least" in front of it as people might be confused and think she has a possibility for a far higher rating such as High-1A+

 

[Elizio33]

I am reposting my reply to your comment as it got drown out by the unexpected amount of activity that has occurred in this discussion in the past day:

So in this system, is it that any amount of Crisis or Anti-Crisis energy can essentially be turned into its own infinite supply based on how much significance it has (narrative, history, memory)? In this particular instance would it be correct to say that the certain amount of residual Anti-Crisis energy left over by Doctor manhattan's efforts, due to its narrative importance (it was originally used in an attempt to repair all the damage done by all of the significant crisis events) could grow to meet the needs of Wonder Woman to take on Perpetua, but she hesitated and as such failed. I suppose this makes sense.

My other concern with stating that The Darkest Knight is equal to Doctor Manhattan is that it is never assumed that alternate versions of a character are equal to the main version in power as there countless examples of this not being the case. Even though the body that TBWL takes is stated to be a copy of Doctor Manhattan and has his abilities, this does not mean that they are at the same level. Your interpretation of how Crisis and Anti-Crisis energy works as a narrative force seems consistent and provides a reasoning as to why Doctor Manhattan's residual energy does not necessarily make him stronger. It is also just as likely that the real Doctor Manhattan is just a unique being or that he is simply more powerful just as the main universe Superman is far stronger than Red Son Superman.

Overall it does not impact things too drastically. 1.) Either Doctor Manhattan and base for Darkest Knight are EQUAL and BELOW Post Year of the Villain / Death Metal Perpetua or 2.) The original Doctor Manhattan is unique in his nature and is more powerful than Crisis Energy amped Darkest Knight and Post Year of the Villain / Death Metal Perpetua.

Additionally: Barry Allen, when retelling the history of the DC universe from its beginnings all the way up until the start of the ALL IN era, states: "Dr. Manhattan, a traveler from an alternate universe, was by far the most powerful entity we had ever encountered" - New History of the DC Universe Vol1 #4. (Broadly speaking this statement is not true, more powerful beings than Doctor Manhattan have interacted with the superheroes of Earth though perhaps Barry is unaware of these events. It still is extremely relevant as Barry is of course aware of powerful beings like Perpetua and The Darkest Knight, which are both mentioned in his history of the DC universe, and yet he states this about Doctor Manhattan)


I think that Perpetua should have 4 keys as I have discussed a few times:

Diminished State (Weakened) - High-1A: Perpetua at her lowest state is still comparable though ultimately superior to the Ultra Monitor, the empowered fusion of the Three Monitor Brothers. Even after just waking, she considered the actions of the World Forger in the Sixth Dimension, to rewrite all of existence such that it is realigned to Justice, to be merely “the action of a fearful child.”

Diminished State (Post Year of the Villain / Death Metal) - High-1A: Perpetua in this state has grown noticeably in power since being freed and would go on to absorb Crisis Energy from the Dark Multiverse. She fought and was roughly comparable to The Crisis Energy amped Darkest Knight even while weakened from having her Crisis Energy stolen and used to empower her rival. The Darkest Knight had also stolen energy Doctor Manhattan imbued into the Mobius Chair in order to further enhance his power, yet they were comparable through the majority of their fight. Higher with Crisis Energy: Even after having her Crisis Energy cut off and redirected to her opponent, The Darkest Knight, she was still roughly comparable though very slightly inferior to him. She remarks that they are both running out of energy even though he had stolen multiple sources of energy to fight her. His victory was a narrow one even with his power ups. Had Perpetua's supply of Crisis Energy not been taken away she easily would have won as she was nearly equal to The Darkest Knight without it.

Diminished State (Full Power - The Original Multiverse Pre Cosmic Raptor Defeat) - High-1A: Perpetua in this state is at the PINNACLE of her IN CREATION capability. It was in this form, after she had left her role as a Hand and descended from the Greater Omniverse, that she created the Sixth Dimension and her Sixth Dimensional Sons the Three Monitor Brothers. Perpetua in this state created all of existence including the Death Son itself (The abstraction that is the end of everything in the Divine Continuum including all of its stories all contained in one place) that killed The Crisis Energy amped Darkest Knight just by being pushed into it. She accomplished all of this with her thoughts, crafting Creation to meet her own designs rather than what was intended for her kind. As a result of her actions, fundamental forces of existence, including versions of The Endless, manifested within her Creation. The full capacity of Creation is so vast that even with the full extent of his power, before divesting it in four different ways, Doctor Manhattan was not capable of fixing existence in its entirety. (NOTE: Perpetua also gets plot manipulation due to creating the Death Son which is the singularity at the end of the history of the Divine Continuum both containing all stories and where all stories inevitably end up). Far Higher with Preparation: Perpetua would go on to plot and accumulate power unopposed for more than Five Billion Years until she started to make her Apex Predators after which her sons finally started to feel distrustful of her intentions and would eventually turn against her. After 250,000 years, each Apex Predator was weaker though comparable to any individual member of the Monitor Brothers Trio. This is the state that she was is in just before she was defeated by the Cosmic Raptor, sealed away in the Source Wall with her infinite army of Apex Predators, and separated from her power. Then her Creation was rebooted and changed to further weaken and reduce her by turning Creation away from Doom towards Justice once again as was intended for all of her kind to pursue.
NOTE: NOBODY scales to this key.
NOTE: The title of this key is a work in progress. I suppose it could simply be called "Diminished State: Full Power" or simply "Full Power" for convenience.

True State (Hand of the Source) - High-1A: As a Hand, she is a being of the Greater Omniverse itself, she entirely transcends the infinite Creations she and her fellow Hand's have made throughout the Greater Omniverse. Members of the Hands must descend into Creations (which is what her third key portrays). Anti-Crisis Wonder Woman could not even perceive a descended member of the Hands until it took on a form for her to comprehend.

I don't think that her Key as a Hand of the Source should have "at least" in front of it as people might be confused and think she has a possibility for a far higher rating such as High-1A+

Hmm. I still think a fourth key isn't really necessary, but it doesn't bother me either.

 

[Elizio33]

There you go. I have just designed a coherent structure for my sandbox about DC Cosmology. It's a basic structure; we can add information to it later. This approach may give the impression of a less vertical hierarchy and be more consistent with what some authors, such as Grant Morrison, have attempted to do.

The Structure of Existence: The Divine Continuum

The Spatial Aspect of the Divine Continuum: Omniverse

The Material Realms of the Omniverse

Structure of a Single Universe

Three-Dimensional Size

Spatial Dimensions

Temporal Dimensions

Total Number of Universes

The Antimatter Universe

Higher Dimensions

The Orrery of Worlds and Local Multiverses

The Bleed and the Nature of the Fifth Dimension

The Bleed

The Fifth Dimension

The Subtle Realms and Liminal Structures

The Speed Force Wall

The Timestream

Wonderworld

The Metaphysical Realms of the Omniverse

The Elemental Realms

The Sphere of the Gods

Nature of the inhabitants of the Sphere of the Gods

Mortals and the Sphere of the Gods

The Collective Unconscious

The Godworlds (Urgrund, New Genesis, and Apokolips)

Heaven, Hell, and the Silver City

Skyland and Underworld

Dreaming and Nightmare

The Dark Multiverse and the Outer Place

The Temporal Aspect of the Divine Continuum: Hypertime

The Upper Boundaries of the Divine Continuum

Comic Book Limbo

The Monitor Sphere

The Sixth Dimension

The Source Wall and Promethean Galaxy

The Outer Realms: The Greater Omniverse

The Light of Creation and Primordial Darkness

The Source/The Overvoid/The Presence = God

Notes: The Bleed connects all dimensions across the Divine Continuum and extends beyond the Orrery of Worlds to other Multiverses. It interacts with higher dimensions such as the Fifth Dimension, which touches all levels of reality except the Sixth Dimension and the upper realm. The existence of the Fifth Dimension could reasonably be interpreted as being perpendicular to Hypertime, given that its inhabitants can traverse it freely and the nature of Hypercube Time, where fifth-dimensional entities observe us in the same way we observe the two-dimensional adventures of our favorite comic book characters: in a flat manner. The fifth-dimensional Gentry used Cube Time/Earth-33 to invade the Multiverse through infected comic books as carriers, and Bat-Mite could travel through Space B/Plane Time to penetrate reality.

A single universe can generate an effectively infinite network of possible outcomes and branching timelines, which may themselves diverge into further layers of alternate realities. Within the framework of Hypertime, these divergences are not strictly linear or isolated, but exist as an interconnected web where timelines can branch, overlap, and occasionally reconverge across a broader multiversal structure.

While parts of DC Cosmology can be understood as a vertical hierarchy where certain realms transcend others in terms of dimensional or ontological level, the overall structure is not strictly linear. Instead, some layers function more like intersecting systems or “axes” that interact across the cosmology. For example, the Bleed operates as an transdimensional medium connecting realities and dimensions, but it is also shown to interface with higher conceptual layers that transcends the physical universe such as the Fifth Dimension, which itself exists as a realm of imagination. In turn, the Fifth Dimension can influence or interact with structures like Hypertime, which represents a branching network of timelines rather than a single linear temporal flow. Together, these relationships suggest a cosmology that is both hierarchical and networked, rather than purely vertical.

@PromptedElephant641 what do you think about this structure? I tried my best to give a brief summary about the universes and the timelines.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that our DC Comics ratings seem to be turning very exaggerated for what were portrayed as purely physical rather than transcendent beings.

 

[Elizio33]

I think that our DC Comics ratings seem to be turning very exaggerated for what were portrayed as purely physical rather than transcendent beings.

What do you mean?

 

[PromptedElephant641]

Hmm. I still think a fourth key isn't really necessary, but it doesn't bother me either.

I think it is definitely necessary to add a key to differentiate between her FAR more powerful form Pre-Cosmic Raptor Judgement and her comparatively weak modern era appearances. It is simply too substantial of a difference to not have it on her profile and there is a surprising amount of stuff for that profile as I have shown.

What do you think about what I have said about Doctor Manhattan?

@PromptedElephant641 what do you think about this structure?

I think it is good but I would make a few changes though it is of course still a work in progress:

The Structure of Existence: The Divine Continuum

The Material Realms of the Omniverse

Structure of a Single Universe

• Three-Dimensional Size
• Spatial Dimensions
• Temporal Dimensions

The Orrery of Worlds and Local Multiverses

• Total Number of Universes

The Antimatter Universe

The Dark Multiverse

Higher Dimensions

Alternate Multiverses

The Subtle Realms and Liminal Structures

The Elemental Realms

The Timestream - the final level of physical reality before the Speed Force Wall

The Boundary Between Physical and Metaphysical Reality: The Speed Force Wall / Wonderworld

The Metaphysical Realms of the Omniverse

The Heroverse (The Pinnacle and Pit) and The realms of Order and Chaos

The Sphere of the Gods

• Nature of the inhabitants of the Sphere of the Gods
• Mortals and the Sphere of the Gods
• The Collective Unconscious
• The Godworlds (Urgrund, New Genesis, and Apokolips)
• Heaven, Hell, and the Silver City
• Skyland and Underworld
• Dreaming and Nightmare
• The Outer Place (It is part of the Dark Multiverse version of the Sphere of the Gods)

Comic Book Limbo

The Monitor Sphere

Beyond Conventional Creation (The Governing Layers)

The Fourth Dimension

The Fifth Dimension

The Sixth Dimension

• The True Source Wall
• Hypertime - A Sixth Dimensional Construct created by the World Forger
• The Tripartite Reality
  • The Entirety of the Positive Matter Multiverse
  • The Entirety of the Dark Matter Multiverse
  • The Entirety of the Anti-Matter Multiverse - Originally served the purpose of the Source Wall before Perpetua was imprisoned

Beyond the Divine Continuum: The Greater Omniverse

The Light of Creation

The Great Darkness

The Primordial Darkness (The Sea of Brahman)

The Source/The Overvoid/The Presence = God


Extra: The Bleed. It does not fit at any one individual location in the hierarchy.

 

[PromptedElephant641]

I think that our DC Comics ratings seem to be turning very exaggerated for what were portrayed as purely physical rather than transcendent beings.

I understand your concerns; however, there are only three characters that are being deliberated at the moment. We are currently only addressing Perpetua, The Darkest knight, and Doctor Manhattan who are all incredibly powerful beings that do not impact the scaling of DC besides scaling to each other. The number of characters that scale to these beings is extremely limited as such there is no possibility of there being statistics inflation from them.

I actually do have a fair number of downgrades that I will get to eventually such as the elemental parliaments which are very much over-rated as well as the Lords of Order and Chaos who are also rated far too high.

 

[Elizio33]

I think it is definitely necessary to add a key to differentiate between her FAR more powerful form Pre-Cosmic Raptor Judgement and her comparatively weak modern era appearances. It is simply too substantial of a difference to not have it on her profile and there is a surprising amount of stuff for that profile as I have shown.

What do you think about what I have said about Doctor Manhattan?


I think it is good but I would make a few changes though it is of course still a work in progress:

The Structure of Existence: The Divine Continuum

The Material Realms of the Omniverse

Structure of a Single Universe

• Three-Dimensional Size
• Spatial Dimensions
• Temporal Dimensions

The Orrery of Worlds and Local Multiverses

• Total Number of Universes

The Antimatter Universe

The Dark Multiverse

Higher Dimensions

Alternate Multiverses

The Subtle Realms and Liminal Structures

The Elemental Realms

The Timestream - the final level of physical reality before the Speed Force Wall

The Boundary Between Physical and Metaphysical Reality: The Speed Force Wall / Wonderworld

The Metaphysical Realms of the Omniverse

The Sphere of the Gods

• Nature of the inhabitants of the Sphere of the Gods
• Mortals and the Sphere of the Gods
• The Collective Unconscious
• The Godworlds (Urgrund, New Genesis, and Apokolips)
• Heaven, Hell, and the Silver City
• Skyland and Underworld
• Dreaming and Nightmare
• The Outer Place (is part of the Dark Multiverse)

Comic Book Limbo

The Monitor Sphere

Beyond Conventional Creation

The Fourth Dimension

The Fifth Dimension

The Sixth Dimension

• The True Source Wall
• Hypertime - A Sixth Dimensional Construct created by the World Forger
• The Tripartite Reality
  • The Entirety of the Positive Matter Multiverse
  • The Entirety of the Dark Matter Multiverse
  • The Entirety of the Anti-Matter Multiverse - Originally served the purpose of the Source Wall before Perpetua was imprisoned

Beyond the Divine Continuum: The Greater Omniverse

The Light of Creation

The Great Darkness

The Primordial Darkness (The Sea of Brahman)

The Source/The Overvoid/The Presence = God


Extra: The Bleed. It does not fit at any one individual location in the hierarchy.

The Dark Multiverse should be ranked higher since it contains its own dark reflection of the Sphere of the Gods, called the Outer Place where the Upside-Down Man lives. The rest is pretty good.

Edit. NVM i just see you mentioned the Outer Place. But what do you mean with the Bleed ?

 

[Antvasima]

What do you mean?

Well, these enormously high-tiered beings seem much more physical than transcendent, and even 1-A is supposed to be completely transcendent over all physical mathematical definitions, and High 1-A is unfathomably higher than that, so intuitively it seems like our DC Comics and Marvel Comics statistics are turning ridiculous and enormously more leniently assigned than any other similar ratings for other verses in our wiki.

 

[PromptedElephant641]

The Dark Multiverse should be ranked higher since it contains its own dark reflection of the Sphere of the Gods, called the Outer Place where the Upside-Down Man lives. The rest is pretty good.

Edit. NVM i just see you mentioned the Outer Place. But what do you mean with the Bleed ?

I am saying that it does not fit neatly at any part of the hierarchy as it has countless levels to it so I would not put it anywhere in that list of structures for the time being. The Bleed that most characters interact with is just the space between universes in the Orrery, but it has far higher versions so it can't really be pinned down as each layer of reality has its own corresponding layer of the Bleed encompassing it.

 

[PromptedElephant641]

Well, these enormously high-tiered beings seem much more physical than transcendent, and even 1-A is supposed to be completely transcendent over all physical mathematical definitions, and High 1-A is unfathomably higher than that, so intuitively it seems like our DC Comics and Marvel Comics statistics are turning ridiculous and enormously more laxly assigned than any other similar ratings in our wiki.

Comics are unfortunately not a medium conducive to making its higher tiered characters actually feel transcendent the way other forms of entertainment such as novels can. As such it is up to us to find the context clues regarding the true nature of reality as the writers and artist are of course constricted by a small amount of text and the severe limitations of artwork to attempt to convey these transcendent events. In comics practically every character, no matter how powerful, is treated as physical as it is not possible to depict them in any other way.

There is an exceptionally small subset of characters that are left entirely abstract and are not even depicted at all such as The Voice in Pre-Crisis Continuity which was only "shown" through its speech bubbles which were projected from nothing and nowhere. Other characters could not interact with the Voice in anyway, shape, or form. This would be boring and confusing if ALL abstract beings were depicted this way, especially if there was more than one abstract being present as there would just be random speech bubbles coming from nothing. If there were two or more abstracts communicating, other than by changing the text style and font size, there would not be any way to indicate which character is which and I don't think that most people would find this very enjoyable in the first place. Overall I think it is for the best that only the most divine and transcendent beings are given this treatment.

 

[Elizio33]

The Dark Multiverse should be ranked higher since it contains its own dark reflection of the Sphere of the Gods, called the Outer Place where the Upside-Down Man lives. The rest is pretty good.

Edit. NVM i just see you mentioned the Outer Place. But what do you mean with the Bleed ?

Also. The way the relationship between the Omniverse and Hypertime was depicted in Flashpoint Beyond indicates that the two are equal complementary structures constituting the Divine Continuum. The Sixth Dimension should just transcends Hypertime given that the World Forger created it there and that an alternate version of Barry Allen (Sixth Dimension) was able to use the Speed Force and the Still Force to collapse Hypertime and freely manipulate the Timestream. Hypertime itself is best understood as a three-dimensional structure with geometry being used as metaphors to describe its nature. About the Bleed, while it is true that most characters interacting with it only do so with its most base level, the Bleed interfaces with the Fifth Dimension and exists as the substance that gives life and meaning to story.

 

[PromptedElephant641]

Also. The way the relationship between the Omniverse and Hypertime was depicted in Flashpoint Beyond indicates that the two are equal complementary structures constituting the Divine Continuum. The Sixth Dimension should just transcends Hypertime given that the World Forger created it there and that an alternate version of Barry Allen (Sixth Dimension) was able to use the Speed Force and the Still Force to collapse Hypertime. Hypertime itself is best understood as a three-dimensional structure with geometry being used as metaphors to describe its nature.

Hypertime and The Omniverse are equal as shown in Flashpoint Beyond and this is maintained here as well. They are both Sixth Dimensional at their full capacity.

Hypertime is a Sixth Dimensional construct created by the World Forger inside the Sixth Dimension as such it is Sixth Dimensional in the same manner that anything a human can interact with or create within our universe is geometrically 3D. The full extent of the Omniverse, which is the Tripartite Creation containing the full extent of the positive, dark, and anti-matter multiverses, is also a Sixth Dimensional structure.

This is consistent as while in physical reality the Anti-Matter universe only contains one individual universe, the full extent of the Anti-Matter universe actually extends all the way to the True Source Wall at the boundary of the Sixth Dimension itself. The Anti-Matter universe used to separate Creation from the Greater Omniverse before Perpetua was imprisoned in The Source Wall closing off even the Anti-Matter universe at its edge. It was revealed that the Anti-Monitor loosing his purpose after being replaced by the Source Wall is what drove him to resent his brother The Monitor because Mar Novu knew that this would happen and did not tell Mobius.

The three Multiverses of Matter, Dark Matter, and Anti-Matter overall are all equivalent in scale as Sixth Dimensional objects in their full capacity. Together the three make up the Tripartite Creation forming the spatial half (The Omniverse) of the Divine Continuum while Hypertime, another Sixth Dimensional construct, is the temporal half.

 

[Elizio33]

Hypertime and The Omniverse are equal as shown in Flashpoint Beyond and this is maintained here as well. They are both Sixth Dimensional at their full capacity.

Hypertime is a Sixth Dimensional construct created by the World Forger inside the Sixth Dimension as such it is Sixth Dimensional in the same manner that anything a human can interact with or create within our universe is geometrically 3D. The full extent of the Omniverse, which is the tripartite reality containing the full extent of the positive, dark, and anti-matter multiverses, is also a Sixth Dimensional structure.

This is consistent as while in physical reality the Anti-Matter universe only contains one individual universe, the full extent of the Anti-Matter universe actually extends all the way to the True Source Wall at the boundary of the Sixth Dimension itself. The Anti-Matter universe used to separate Creation from the Greater Omniverse before Perpetua was imprisoned in The Source Wall closing off even the Anti-Matter universe at its edge. It was revealed that the Anti-Monitor loosing his purpose after being replaced by the Source Wall is what drove him to resent his brother The Monitor because mar Novu knew that this would happen and did not tell Mobius.

The three Multiverses of Matter, Dark Matter, and Anti-Matter overall are all equivalent in scale as Sixth Dimensional objects in their full capacity. Together the three make up the Tripartite Creation forming the spatial half (The Omniverse) of the Divine Continuum while Hypertime, another Sixth Dimensional construct, is the temporal half.

Okay.

 

[Hecky2222]

Well, these enormously high-tiered beings seem much more physical than transcendent, and even 1-A is supposed to be completely transcendent over all physical mathematical definitions, and High 1-A is unfathomably higher than that, so intuitively it seems like our DC Comics and Marvel Comics statistics are turning ridiculous and enormously more leniently assigned than any other similar ratings for other verses in our wiki.

I was just skimming through staff discussions which linked my threads and find this:
https://vsbattles.com/threads/false-r-f.191325/post-7731506
I ssuppose your doubts are 1-A beings having physicality rather than being "Transcendant" (In sense abstractions which some people think 1-A are concepts and abstracts idk why)
And noone says 1-A can't have physicals.

Just like non 1-A can have mathematical size and dimensionality, as well 1-A can have own "physicality" just in way they are not accessible to lower hierarchy. With same reason we don't give every 1-A and BDE 3 Abstract Existence(Lacking Physicality) and Nonexistence Physiology. You can quote Ultima or any Tier 1-A expert on that. It seems it is misunderstanding you have about how 1-A works. (Planck seems like told same thing what I am trying to say shortly anyway)

And well if you mean by Transcendant lacking physicality whole Endless, Demigiur Brothers are nothing but Abstracts and I hope Perpetua level characters scaling to them isn't strange to you

 

[Elizio33]

Perpetua shaped a single Multiverse in a tripartite form based on positive matter, dark matter, and antimatter. She did not create the Omniverse itself. Although some realms included in the Local Omniverse, such as the Sphere of the Gods, were indirectly created by Perpetua when she created the Multiverse through the energies of Totality conferred upon her by The Source, they are mostly independent of her as they appeared naturally. Some Multiverses contained within the Local Omniverse are previous versions or iterations of the Multiverse, with Perpetua's reality being its first iteration or the Pre-Crisis Multiverse which was brought back after the Convergence but was destroyed aftee by the Gentry and the Empty Hand who referred to it as "Multiverse-2."

The Hypertime stuffs makes sense. I agree, but the tripartite form is more about the Multiverse rather than the broader reality.

 

[Elizio33]

Well, these enormously high-tiered beings seem much more physical than transcendent, and even 1-A is supposed to be completely transcendent over all physical mathematical definitions, and High 1-A is unfathomably higher than that, so intuitively it seems like our DC Comics and Marvel Comics statistics are turning ridiculous and enormously more leniently assigned than any other similar ratings for other verses in our wiki.

I understand your concerns, but we were talking about characters such as Perpetua, Doctor Manhattan, and the Darkest Knight, who are powered by energies derived The Source and who, through them, can affect and manipulate High 1-A structures such as the Sixth Dimension. Regarding Superboy-Prime, I understand your point of view: even in a fit of rage, it's illogical that a physical being, special or not, could defeat a High 1-A powered being like the Darkest Knight. But we agreed that no one should scale to the enraged Superboy-Prime. Moreover, beings like Perpetua or the Monitors operate at a very different level that transcends even that of the Sphere of the Gods, whose gods are archetypal and living ideas or concepts, fundamental to existence. They must reduce their own existence to a form perceptible to beings in the Multiverse, or even exist there. In the case of the Hands, they are direct agents of The Source existing beyond the Source Wall, the limit to thoughts.

 

[PromptedElephant641]

Perpetua shaped a single Multiverse in a tripartite form based on positive matter, dark matter, and antimatter. She did not create the Omniverse itself. Although some realms included in the Local Omniverse, such as the Sphere of the Gods, were indirectly created by Perpetua when she created the Multiverse through the energies of Totality conferred upon her by The Source, they are mostly independent of her as they appeared naturally. Some Multiverses contained within the Local Omniverse are previous versions or iterations of the Multiverse, with Perpetua's reality being its first iteration or the Pre-Crisis Multiverse which was brought back after the Convergence but was destroyed aftee by the Gentry and the Empty Hand who referred to it as "Multiverse-2."

The Hypertime stuffs makes sense. I agree, but the tripartite form is more about the Multiverse rather than the broader reality.

I would say that the Tripartite Creation is 'The Omniverse" as referred to in Flashpoint Beyond as it contains the entire spatial component of the Divine Continuum. It is one creation with three different components, each one assigned to one of her sons. Each of these three portions of Creation contain everything else with the vast majority of the places we are shown and which characters visit being contained in the Positive Matter component.

Things like Multiverse-2 are merely the physical universes of the Pre-Crisis Multiverse contained within the overall structure of the Positive Matter aspect of the Tripartite Creation. As we discussed a while back (shown below) there are at least an infinite number of other multiverse coexisting alongside Multiverse-1 (the Post-Crisis until present multiverse) and Multiverse-2 (The Pre-Crisis Multiverse). With there being an infinite number of multiverses contained within the structure of the Wildstorm reality on its own which is an infinitesimal fraction of the overall DC Cosmology. All of these multiverses are contained within the overall physical reality of the Positive Matter Reality overseen by Mar Novu.

I agree that Perpetua did not create everything. She just made the most fundamental parts and everything else just emerged on its own due to natural processes.

Well as I wrote the ORIGINAL Wildstorm Snowflake is merely a computer simulation, an impressively complicated one but still a simulation of reality. Outsiders Vol5 just makes it such that the Wildstorm continuity has Infinite Multiverses within it. The Snowflake is the shape of the Wildstorm reality NOT DCs. Jakita Wagner, who has taken on the mantle of former Planetary member Drummer refers to it as such and the Carrier even points out the differences between the Wildstorm multiverse and the regular mainstream DC multiverse comparing the reality of DC directly to a mere sheet of paper because it is fragile and easily susceptible to reboots and alterations. Wildstorm on the other hand did not experience any alterations during its existence besides when Void rebooted it when using Captain Atom's power. The author likely saw some Wildstorm content with the Snowflake and did not realize that the Snowflake is a simulation and not the true reality, otherwise he would have used the classic Bleed fractal / spiral imagery that is associated with the multiverse in Wildstorm. As for the BROADER REALITY I think you will find the following interesting, this is another excerpt from my overarching DC Cosmology Blog:

Multiverses
There is of course more than one multiverse within the Divine Continuum. The local 52 multiverse is, as the name implies, the local component of the mainstream DC multiverse. Outside of the mainstream multiverse there at least infinite other multiverses. This even includes the original Wildstorm Continuity which in of itself contains infinite multiverses.

• The local 52 - The Multiversity Guidebook, Multiversity #2.
• The local multiverse is mentioned - Dark Nights: Metal Vol1 #1.
• The local multiverse is mentioned again - Superman Vol4 #15.
• Despite there supposedly being 52 universes there are in actuality an infinite number of universes in the main DC multiverse as explained by Rip Hunter of the Linear Men - DC: The New Frontier Special #1.
• There are megaverses which are likely some sort of collection of universes or multiverses - 52 Vol1 #52.
• There is more than one multiverse - Earth 2 Worlds End #5.
• Foreign multiversal unit detected - Future’s End #41.
• The Supergirl of Earth-10 becomes the first person from their world to cross between multiverses - Final Crisis Secret Files.
• In Multiversity, there is the carcass of the so called Multiverse-2 that the gentry were feeding on under the orders of the Empty Hand - The Multiversity Vol1 #2. We the readers would find out years later in Dark Crisis that this is the original true Pre-Crisis Multiverse. This shows that multiverses may have an identical numerical labeling convention as the universes of the main DC multiverse that is contained within the Infinite Frontier / Divine Continuum / Local Omniverse.
• There is an entire artificial multiverse created by Metron containing infinite realities - Bug! Adventures of Forager #6. These universes are all impossible realities (universes that could not occur naturally and had to be crafters artificially) - Bug! Adventures of Forager #3.
• Dominus creates and exposes Superman to an infinite multiverse likely of his own creation - Action Comics Vol1 #748.
• Pre-Crisis universes, including even the elusive Earth-Prime itself (which was definitively destroyed in crisis on infinite earths), are accessed somehow via Hypertime in Final Crisis Legion of Three Worlds. In fact, we even see the Earth-Prime Legion of Superheroes. Though this is inconsistent and goes against the established lore as Superboy Prime is supposed to be the only super-powered being in his universe but perhaps this changes by the 30th century. This shows that even during the time of Final Crisis, the Pre-Crisis Multiverse still exists via Hypertime despite having been erased.
• The Hypertime world Earth-898 is part of its own alternate Pre-Crisis Multiverse. In this multiverse, the Crisis on Infinite Earths was totally different and instead involved a giant energy amoeba called the Limbo Cell draining the multiverse of energy. This was averted by the sacrifice of Oliver Queen who had his brain transplanted into a New Gods version of Amazo allowing him to erase the Limbo Cell and himself in the process - JLA: Another Nail #3.
• DC movies, TV shows, and Animation are part of their own multiverse that exists within the Divine Continuum. This includes the Arrowverse, DCAU, DCEU, The video game verse including things like injustice and even LEGO Batman, and any other non conventional versions of DC.
• There is a multiverse of multiverses - The Unexpected Vol3 #7.
• There are infinite multiverses: "I suggested to Dan if you imagine like a champagne glass and you picture all these bubbles rising and giving form to each other, that's what the real multiverse looks like. It's a much bigger scale. It's infinite. These bubbles, there's so many of them out there that there's the Marvel multiverse and there's the DC multiverse and over there's the Archie multiverse. I figure it gives us a scope that every comics universe exists somewhere in there. But the DC Universe is the one we're familiar with - the Orrery of Worlds, as we've called it - and it's floating in this source with multiple multiverses." NOTE: Obviously, Marvel does not scale to DC and DC does not scale to Marvel (or any other IP like Archie) Both due to copyright and intellectual property ownership conflict and of course it is inconsistent and messy.
• The Infinite Frontier is an infinite web of multiverses - Dark Nights: Death Metal Vol1 #7.
• The Zero Point created infinite realities each of which is its own multiverse - Batman/Fortnite: Foundation.
• There are multiverse(s) - Infinite Frontier Vol1 #7.
• There are an infinite number of Crises - Batman Vol3 #134
• There are an infinite number of Crises as written on the prison wall by Psycho Pirate an individual who is knowledgeable of these things and is insane as a direct result of this knowledge - Flashpoint Beyond Vol1 #2.
• There are an infinite number of Crises - Justice League Odyssey Vol1 #19.
• The multiverses of the Divine Continuum are under siege by the Great Darkness - Flashpoint Beyond Vol1 #3.
• The fact that there are Multiverses and not just a singular multiverse is brought up more than once - Flashpoint Beyond Vol1 #5.
• It is explained that multiverses are constantly being created - John Stewart: The Emerald Knight.
• “Space. Time. Gravity. Quantum parallels. Multiverses. The Omniverse. Source energy. Infinite possibilities that eradicate the most preposterous of doubts. How can a kid possessing a mother box doubt the existence of anything supernatural.” - Mister Miracle: The Source of Freedom #4
• The Wildstorm Snowflake, which is only an infinitesimal portion of DC cosmology, contains its own infinite number of multiverses. Despite having been erased by the Flashpoint, the Wildstorm Continuity still exists likely due to Hypertime - Outsiders Vol5 #6.
• Harley Quinn meets versions of herself from all Multiverses - Harley Quinn Screws up the DCU Vol1 #6. In the first issue of the series this is refered to as the Crisis on Infinite Origins as such there could be infinite multiverses - Harley Quinn Screws up the DCU Vol1 #1.
• It is written on Rip Hunter’s infamous green chalk board: “Beyond the Omniverse. What's beyond it? To where?” - Flash Point Beyond Vol1 #0. This is likely in reference to the Divine Continuum Omniverse, which is first introduced on the same page, and not the Greater Omniverse itself
• Given that there are more than an uncountably infinite number of universes in the main DC multiverse, it is highly likely that there are also more than an uncountably infinite number of multiverses all contained within the greater Orrery of Worlds in the Material World beneath the Speed Force Wall.

 

[Hecky2222]

@PromptedElephant641 @Elizio33 since you are agreeing who scale to what.

May I know justification of SPB Prime being able to affect TDK? I don't recall what was explanation, some unnatural amp. Cuz otherwise if we don't scale SBP Prime to TDK yet he has able to damage him significantly is massive anti feat against H1A icl

 

[Elizio33]

I would say that the Tripartite Creation is 'The Omniverse" as referred to in Flashpoint Beyond as it contains the entire spatial component of the Divine Continuum. It is one creation with three different components, each one assigned to one of her sons. Each of these three portions of Creation contain everything else with the vast majority of the places we are shown and which characters visit being contained in the Positive Matter component.

Things like Multiverse-2 are merely the physical universes of the Pre-Crisis Multiverse contained within the overall structure of the Positive Matter aspect of the Tripartite Creation. As we discussed a while back (shown below) there are at least an infinite number of other multiverse coexisting alongside Multiverse-1 (the Post-Crisis until present multiverse) and Multiverse-2 (The Pre-Crisis Multiverse). With there being an infinite number of multiverses contained within the structure of the Wildstorm reality on its own which is an infinitesimal fraction of the overall DC Cosmology. All of these multiverses are contained within the overall physical reality of the Positive Matter Reality overseen by Mar Novu.

I agree that Perpetua did not create everything. She just made the most fundamental parts and everything else just emerged on its own due to natural processes.

The tripartite creation created by Perpetua is composed of the Orrery of Worlds, the reality of positive matter; the Forge of Worlds, the reality of dark matter; and the Antimatter Universe, the reality of antimatter. The Orrery of Worlds has undergone multiple changes through interactions with the Metaverse (Universe-0) and Crises.

 

[PromptedElephant641]

The tripartite creation created by Perpetua is composed of the Orrery of Worlds, the reality of positive matter; the Forge of Worlds, the reality of dark matter; and the Antimatter Universe, the reality of antimatter. The Orrery of Worlds has undergone multiple changes through interactions with the Metaverse (Universe-0) and Crises.

Agreed.

I am simply pointing out the fact that the full extent of each of these three types of reality contains everything else in existence as shown by the Anti-Matter universe in its full extent going all the way to the edge of Creation in the Sixth Dimension itself serving as the barrier with the Greater Omniverse before the existence of The Source Wall.

 

[Elizio33]

@PromptedElephant641 @Elizio33 since you are agreeing who scale to what.

May I know justification of SPB Prime being able to affect TDK? I don't recall what was explanation, some unnatural amp. Cuz otherwise if we don't scale SBP Prime to TDK yet he has able to damage him significantly is massive anti feat against H1A icl

Superboy-Prime was able to confront the Darkest Knight in a state of rage and managed to defeat him briefly, but it is unknown whether the Darkest Knight was serious or not during their fight, as he didn't fought Prime with the same deadly intensity as with Perpetua, but rather seemed to be constantly trying to manipulate him psychologically. It is true that a physical being capable of injuring a High 1-A being is strange, and I rather get the impression that the Darkest Knight was not entirely serious during their confrontation and that he held back accordingly, his assertion that he could not kill Superboy-Prime, any more than he could, being merely a bluff. In any case, if this justification is indeed added to Superboy-Prime's profiles, we should maintain what has been agreed upon: no one should scale to the enraged Superboy-Prime, and add that is uncertain whether The Darkest Knight fought Prime with deadly intensity, as he was constantly trying to manipulate him during their confrontation.

 

[PromptedElephant641]

@PromptedElephant641 @Elizio33 since you are agreeing who scale to what.

May I know justification of SPB Prime being able to affect TDK? I don't recall what was explanation, some unnatural amp. Cuz otherwise if we don't scale SBP Prime to TDK yet he has able to damage him significantly is massive anti feat against H1A icl

SBP has a vast number of crazy feats. There has never been any actual explanation as to why he is so powerful he just is. When he is at his normal state he is simply a Pre-Crisis Kryptonian but with greatly enhanced solar metabolism, immunity to magic, the ability to absorb energies besides solar radiation even including magic, and a number of other quirks and hax that are also never explained in any way. In his enraged state he becomes a literal plot device for DC writers to use in whatever way they see fit. This ultimately doesn't matter as no other character scales to SBP while he is in his enraged reality manipulating state so it has no impact on anything else. SBP is a unique character in DC.

 

[Frankky123]

Superboy-Prime was able to confront the Darkest Knight in a state of rage and managed to defeat him briefly, but it is unknown whether the Darkest Knight was serious or not during their fight, as he didn't fought Prime with the same deadly intensity as with Perpetua, but rather seemed to be constantly trying to manipulate him psychologically. It is true that a physical being capable of injuring a High 1-A being is strange, and I rather get the impression that the Darkest Knight was not entirely serious during their confrontation and that he held back accordingly, his assertion that he could not kill Superboy-Prime, any more than he could, being merely a bluff.

i think this scan visualized that tdk got his power leaked out and prime stated he could take it. It happened after this blow where that impact caused the destruction of multiple planet. in second scan we see that tdk used crisis energy to blast prime.

 

[PromptedElephant641]

Superboy-Prime was able to confront the Darkest Knight in a state of rage and managed to defeat him briefly, but it is unknown whether the Darkest Knight was serious or not during their fight, as he didn't fought Prime with the same deadly intensity as with Perpetua, but rather seemed to be constantly trying to manipulate him psychologically. It is true that a physical being capable of injuring a High 1-A being is strange, and I rather get the impression that the Darkest Knight was not entirely serious during their confrontation and that he held back accordingly, his assertion that he could not kill Superboy-Prime, any more than he could, being merely a bluff.

Ultimately, even though TDK is incredibly manipulative, he even states that he doesn't want to expend any energy to kill him so even at the absolute lowest possible interpretation, SBP is still High-1A when enraged since TDK would have to expend High-1A Crisis Energy to kill him. As otherwise it would be completely effortless to erase him until Krypto interrupted him. Even this is not certain though as it could be that SBP is just straight up superior to TDK given the beatdown that the former gave the later and the fact that he was going to kill him. In the end due to the circumstances around the fight, what is portrayed, and the nature of each character it is clear that TDK and SBP are comparable in some way but it cannot be definitively stated if SBP is superior to TDK, TDK is superior to SBP, or SBP and TDK are equal, just that they are operating the same level. Overall it is clear that neither character is in a transcendent position over the other no matter how one looks at it.

I am currently making the revised SBP profile draft with the revisions and notes that we extensively discussed a few pages back.

 

[Hecky2222]

Snip

Snip

This is strange though to affect someone who has BDE 3 stats. Even strange to me is TDK amp comes from Dr Manhattan who somehow doesn't have BDE stats but only H1A hax(As we see beating him physically was possible for Heralds in Doomsday Clock)

Maybe that tells us TDK doesn't have literally H1A dura but rather some kind of haxes and Invulnerability that allows Dr Manhattan level characters to fight against way superior ones?

Or as Prompted Elephant told it can be explained by way SBP Prime had some unique ability or empowerment that allowed him to beat up TDK

 

[PromptedElephant641]

This is strange though to affect someone who has BDE 3 stats. Even strange to me is TDK amp comes from Dr Manhattan who somehow doesn't have BDE stats but only H1A hax(As we see beating him physically was possible for Heralds in Doomsday Clock)

Maybe that tells us TDK doesn't have literally H1A dura but rather some kind of haxes and Invulnerability that allows Dr Manhattan level characters to fight against way superior ones?

Or as Prompted Elephant told it can be explained by way SBP Prime had some unique ability or empowerment that allowed him to beat up TDK

I didn't say he had a unique empowerment, it is simply a result of being in his enraged state where he is treated as a plot device by the writers.

As for Doctor Manhattan he is also out of date and needs work as well: Doctor Manhattan’s durability also needs to be corrected to match his power output due to being a being composed entirely of Collective Energy (Anti-Crisis Energy) as currently it states that his physical form is weak due to Guy Gardner seemingly killing him; however, this is not what really happened. Doctor Manhattan at this point was extremely out of touch (even more so than usual), having not interacted with people very much after leaving the Watchmen Universe, and had not engaged in any physical combat during his time in DC (even back in Watchmen, such a thing was rare for him to do opting instead for other forms of attack if he had to do so). Such notions are practically alien to him, though once he was hit by Guy Gardner he immediately understands physical combat again and gets back up and is unharmed.

 

[Xdsagecat]

Does Erebos not have a page?

 

[KirbyFan03]

Does Erebos not have a page?

DCeased ain't canon

 

[Xdsagecat]

DCeased ain't canon

What? Isn't it in earth 55?

 

[KirbyFan03]

What? Isn't it in earth 55?

Outside the mainline 52 local multiverse canon

If that's the case Anti Life needs to be boosted to Outer+

 

[Frankky123]

Superboy-Prime was able to confront the Darkest Knight in a state of rage and managed to defeat him briefly, but it is unknown whether the Darkest Knight was serious or not during their fight, as he didn't fought Prime with the same deadly intensity as with Perpetua, but rather seemed to be constantly trying to manipulate him psychologically. It is true that a physical being capable of injuring a High 1-A being is strange, and I rather get the impression that the Darkest Knight was not entirely serious during their confrontation and that he held back accordingly, his assertion that he could not kill Superboy-Prime, any more than he could, being merely a bluff. In any case, if this justification is indeed added to Superboy-Prime's profiles, we should maintain what has been agreed upon: no one should scale to the enraged Superboy-Prime, and add that is uncertain whether The Darkest Knight fought Prime with deadly intensity, as he was constantly trying to manipulate him during their confrontation.

Hello Elizio, i saw wally and barry profile (post crisis & rebirth). They got High 1-A with entire Speed Force :

Flash (Wally West) (Post-Crisis)

Wally West, better known as The Flash is a member of the Justice League and the former sidekick and successor of Barry Allen. As the "Fastest Man Alive", he is constantly caught in various world-shattering conflicts while trying to balance his heroics with his home life. Tier: Varies with Speed...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Flash (Wally West) (Rebirth)

Wally West is The Flash, the fastest man in the multiverse.[1] Formerly the protégé and successor of Barry Allen, he was trapped in the Speed Force for years, with the world forgetting his history until his metaphorical "rebirth." Tier: Varies with speed, up to 2-C, higher with Speed Steal. High...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Flash (Barry Allen) (Post-Crisis)

Barry Allen is The Flash. His position is a legacy in the Flash Family, a successor to the original Flash, Jay Garrick, and predecessor to Wally West. He is a founding member of the Justice League of America. Barry was struck by a lightning bolt in his lab on a stormy night, the event would lead...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Can we scale Superboy-Prime to High 1-A since the speedster needed the entire Speed Force and still couldn't stop him?

 

[KirbyFan03]

Hello Elizio, i saw wally and barry profile (post crisis & rebirth). They got High 1-A with entire Speed Force :

Flash (Wally West) (Post-Crisis)

Wally West, better known as The Flash is a member of the Justice League and the former sidekick and successor of Barry Allen. As the "Fastest Man Alive", he is constantly caught in various world-shattering conflicts while trying to balance his heroics with his home life. Tier: Varies with Speed...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Flash (Wally West) (Rebirth)

Wally West is The Flash, the fastest man in the multiverse.[1] Formerly the protégé and successor of Barry Allen, he was trapped in the Speed Force for years, with the world forgetting his history until his metaphorical "rebirth." Tier: Varies with speed, up to 2-C, higher with Speed Steal. High...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Flash (Barry Allen) (Post-Crisis)

Barry Allen is The Flash. His position is a legacy in the Flash Family, a successor to the original Flash, Jay Garrick, and predecessor to Wally West. He is a founding member of the Justice League of America. Barry was struck by a lightning bolt in his lab on a stormy night, the event would lead...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Can we scale Superboy-Prime to High 1-A since the speedster needed the entire Speed Force and still couldn't stop him?

You really love SBP huh....

 

[Railgun]

Can we scale Superboy-Prime to High 1-A since the speedster needed the entire Speed Force and still couldn't stop him?

Didn't they just trap him there?

 

[Frankky123]

You really love SBP huh....

I am not a comic expert. I also love superman & batman, but i don't know upgrades could be made to them.

Do you think that is wank?

 

[Frankky123]

Didn't they just trap him there?

bart said he couldnt hold him

 

[PromptedElephant641]

Hello Elizio, i saw wally and barry profile (post crisis & rebirth). They got High 1-A with entire Speed Force :

Flash (Wally West) (Post-Crisis)

Wally West, better known as The Flash is a member of the Justice League and the former sidekick and successor of Barry Allen. As the "Fastest Man Alive", he is constantly caught in various world-shattering conflicts while trying to balance his heroics with his home life. Tier: Varies with Speed...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Flash (Wally West) (Rebirth)

Wally West is The Flash, the fastest man in the multiverse.[1] Formerly the protégé and successor of Barry Allen, he was trapped in the Speed Force for years, with the world forgetting his history until his metaphorical "rebirth." Tier: Varies with speed, up to 2-C, higher with Speed Steal. High...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Flash (Barry Allen) (Post-Crisis)

Barry Allen is The Flash. His position is a legacy in the Flash Family, a successor to the original Flash, Jay Garrick, and predecessor to Wally West. He is a founding member of the Justice League of America. Barry was struck by a lightning bolt in his lab on a stormy night, the event would lead...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Can we scale Superboy-Prime to High 1-A since the speedster needed the entire Speed Force and still couldn't stop him?

Not alt all. The Speed Force is merely baseline 1A. The stuff on the Flashes profiles for High-1A is for The Deep Change which is NOT the Speed Force and should be removed from their profiles or at the very least be revised.