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General DC Comics Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Confluctor
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- dc comics
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Calling writer insane is somewhat praiseNo, he is perfectly sensible, rational, and well-intended. He just has added perceptions of reality that most people lack.
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I actually meant absurdly creative.Insanity usually means being completely mentally out of control, whereas Morrison is just very creative.
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Okay. That is much more reasonable.
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I read some passages of the blog (DC Cosmology: Absolute Guideline of Hypertime & Fifth Dimension (Grant Morrison) and found some relevant information. However, I must say that I do not share the approach taken regarding Time and Hypertime.
Morrison uses geometric analogies such as line, plane, and cube to illustrate how time can be perceived at different levels of complexity. A linear timeline (line time) represents a limited perspective, while higher viewpoints allow entire timelines, or even multiple timelines, to be perceived simultaneously. Hypertime corresponds to this broader structure, where timelines are treated as complete, coexisting entities. However, these descriptions are metaphorical tools for understanding perspective and temporal complexity, rather than literal dimensional hierarchies or evidence of higher ontological tiers. Even when Morrison compares characters to comic book panels and higher beings to readers, the point is simply that: lower-level beings experience time linearly, higher perspectives can view an entire timeline at once. That’s about how time is perceived, not proof that one level exists beyond all dimensional frameworks.
Morrison uses geometric analogies such as line, plane, and cube to illustrate how time can be perceived at different levels of complexity. A linear timeline (line time) represents a limited perspective, while higher viewpoints allow entire timelines, or even multiple timelines, to be perceived simultaneously. Hypertime corresponds to this broader structure, where timelines are treated as complete, coexisting entities. However, these descriptions are metaphorical tools for understanding perspective and temporal complexity, rather than literal dimensional hierarchies or evidence of higher ontological tiers. Even when Morrison compares characters to comic book panels and higher beings to readers, the point is simply that: lower-level beings experience time linearly, higher perspectives can view an entire timeline at once. That’s about how time is perceived, not proof that one level exists beyond all dimensional frameworks.
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But regardless it's an extremely good blog with lots of scans and references
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The blog isn't bad, on the contrary, but it sometimes falls into interpretation, particularly in its approach to certain concepts. In any case, it's very good and is well put together, way better than anything I could have made myself.
I will continue to read the blog and see what might be useful, but treating Hypertime, even in its entirety, as a meta-qualitative or ontological superior concept based on how time is perceived would be unwise. It appears to have relevant information about DC's continuities and the Fifth Dimension.
I will continue to read the blog and see what might be useful, but treating Hypertime, even in its entirety, as a meta-qualitative or ontological superior concept based on how time is perceived would be unwise. It appears to have relevant information about DC's continuities and the Fifth Dimension.
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I read the entire thing... mostly Metrons stuff
But I will say even if you don't buy the args it's a literal library of cosmology scans not even I've seen
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Yes, definitely.
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The following revision on the nature of the Bleed from three years ago was never applied despite having unanimous staff approval from 6 people: https://vsbattles.com/threads/bleed-is-5d-dc-comics.161991/
This would not change anything (Yet) but it still should have been applied to the DC cosmology page. The Bleed in its full capacity actually scales FAR beyond even what is discussed in that thread, but that is a conversation for another day.
This would not change anything (Yet) but it still should have been applied to the DC cosmology page. The Bleed in its full capacity actually scales FAR beyond even what is discussed in that thread, but that is a conversation for another day.
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Well, the blog has already covered what is being discussed in this thread, hasn't it ? Regarding the relationship between the Fifth Dimension and the Bleed, their thematically similar nature links them closely, but they are not necessarily identical. Yes, the Bleed is perceived differently and therefore exists across multiple layers of reality. It should be rated way higher than what it is currently.
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I suppose the blog does mention that it exists at many levels but, I am not sure that it is stated clear enough or in the most apparent manner. I have looked through this discussion thread and there has been much debate on the nature of the Bleed with people, even as recently as the last few weeks, stating that they think that it is only low-1A. As such it is clear that they did not understand from the Cosmology Blog that it is far beyond that so there should probably be a few additional notes added so people are no longer confused.
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Should we mention a High 1-A scaled Bleed in its entirety based on the explanation? Or just make the explanation clearer?
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Yes. I think this will clarify things for a lot of people.
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Perfect.
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Sounds good. It is more accurate to say that the Bleed actually contains the Fifth Dimension just like it contains all other levels of reality as Mr Mxyzptlk had to fly through it to return home after being abused by Superman Prime in Countdown. This is what you should put for now, though I will address this eventually in the future that the Bleed in its FULL scale surpasses even the Source/Light of Creation itself.
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What did you just say?
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The full Bleed surpassing the Light of Creation? I think this is rather an overinterpretation, because the Light lies entirely beyond the Source Wall, not only the universal Source Wall, but also the one that leads to the Greater Omniverse/Infinity.
The Light of Creation is identical to the Deep Change who emanated everything as a dream. The full Bleed should scale to the Fifth Dimension, but not to the realms above.
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Elephant seems to know their stuff so I'll let him cook first before saying anything
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I did not err or misspeak in my statement. The Bleed at its FULL capacity exceeds even the Light of Creation AND nobody has any possible ability to scale to this extent of the Bleed anyway so it will not cause any issues. Though as I said it will be a long time before I get to this part of DC Cosmology. The Bleed adjustments discussed between Elizio33 and myself above are sufficient for now: The Bleed contains the Fifth Dimension within it as shown in Countdown to Final Crisis Vol1 #23 and that random monsters in the Bleed can kill Hellmachine a member of the Gentry (enormously powerful, even by Fifth Dimensional standards, conceptual villainous archetypes from the Fifth Dimension) "Thus Hellmachine was speared, brought low then consumed by that awful life that is in the Bleed." - The Multiversity Vol1 #2. Though, the Empty Hand would bring him (It) back from erasure later in the issue.
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As a break from my previous Content, I provide you all with this Wildstorm Cosmology. I know most people probably do not care about the Wildstorm portion of DC Comics but here it is anyway.
Wildstorm Cosmology
The following Wildstorm Cosmology contains information ONLY from Wildstorm (NOT Wildstorm content in the mainstream DC universe). The only exception is the recent Outsiders Vol5 which elaborates on the nature of the former Wildstorm multiverse before Wildstorm was incorporated into Prime Earth following the Flashpoint reboot. This really has no impact on any mainstream DC characters but it is still useful to have. Additionally it clarifies commonly held misunderstandings regarding the infamous Wildstorm Snowflake
which is the only thing that Wildstorm is know for in the scaling community. The greatest contribution to DC Comics from Wildstorm is the Bleed 
which was created by Warren Ellis and later brought into the mainstream DC where it was expanded upon by Grant Morrison.
The Bleed (The Wildstorm component) - 1A:
I am sure there are other statements of infinite sized universes but I wasn't really looking for them so this is the only one.
There are infinite universes in the Wildstorm Multiverse. There is really not much to elaborate upon here as there is not nearly as much to discuss as the regular DC section in my 10,000 + word long original post a few pages back. Characters such as Jenny Quantum and perhaps The Doctor should be rated as 2A. Max Faraday, the most overhyped Wildstorm character in debating circles, does not have the feats to back up the hype or warrant a super high rating, but he should be at least low-2C for having universal power possibly 2B for making a million alternate Earths which may have actually been universes. While there are statements that he can destroy the Omniverse, it is not clear what that means in the context of Wildstorm. It is likely a synonym for multiverse as such that would be a 2A feat.
Clarifications:
The Snowflake needs further elaboration because there are LOTS of misconceptions online regarding it. There are some that use it as an example of higher dimensions in DC and while that is partially true, it is not entirely an accurate view as this does not show the full story. There are others that see it as the true form of the DC multiverse and that it even contains the Bleed, as seen in the following link: {} however, this view has no basis in reality and directly contradict what is clearly written in the comics. Showing why it is good to actually read the comics. The first thing that needs to be pointed out is that the Snowflake is really not that important in Wildstorm where it is from and that it is only relevant in the context of the comic series Planetary and in the accompanying one-shot Planetary/The Authority: Ruling the World. In fact the Snowflake’s notability can be narrowed down to just two comic issues: Planetary Vol1 #1 and the previously mentioned one shot Planetary/The Authority: Ruling the World. Outside of these two cases, it has no significance in the Wildstorm Cosmologyother than occasional references throughout the remainder of Planetary Vol1. There is of course a reason for that: the ultimate cosmological structure in Wildstorm is the Bleed which is not just the space between all realities but it is the “container” that holds all of Wildstorm. The Snowflake was a mere simulation from an advanced quantum computer created in the 1940s by a secret cabal of immortal scientists. The scientists wanted to create a computer that would determine the best course of action to unfolding events and what choices would result in the best outcomes for the future. In particular they wanted to solve what to do regarding World War II, what would be the actions would lead to the best outcome for humanity. The way the Snowflake works is that it simulates universes where different decisions are made. The universes it simulates are actually real not mere code. These universes are predictions of what might happen if a given choice were made but are not fake but the real thing. It is more accurate to say that the Snowflake is not a model of the Multiverse but a model of likely alternate timelines to the main Wildstorm universe. The important thing to remember about the Snowflake, is that while it produces a stupendously large amount of universes, like Graham’s number kind of large, it is still a finite and inexact version of the true multiverse. As stated several times in Wildstorm, there are infinite universes in the Bleed and no finite simulation is capable of replicating the infinite number of alternate realities. However, while the quantum computer was a success, it unfortunately had unforeseen results. During its first run, in one of the countless simulated but real realities produced within the Snowflake, the inhabitants realized that when the quantum computer completed its task and simulation ended (it was running the problem of how to solve World War 2 in the best manner) their universe would come to an end due to decoherence. Those beings, realizing their fate, invaded the main universe by entering through the Snowflake. There they fought the cabal and every member of the invading force and every member of the cabal except for Axel Brass was killed. Axel Brass, permanently crippled, stayed guard for 50 years in case anything came through from the Snowflake because he could not shut off the Brain of the computer. These events are what is directly explained and shown in the first issue of Planetary - Planetary Vol1 #1. Later, after the events of the first issue of Planetary, when some supervillain gets a hold of the Snowflake he shows a FAR greater understanding of it than even the cabal of scientists that made it and he states the following which reveals the nature of the Snowflake and its relationship with the Bleed, the ultimate reality in Wildstorm: {“FOUR YEARS I'VE BEEN ON ANALYSIS SQUAD 23, LOOKING FOR A WAY INTO THE BLEED. AND LOOK! THE COMPUTER THAT GENERATED A MULTIVERSE AS A CALCULATION TOOL! WHEN DOC BRASS HARK AND EDISON SWITCHED IT ON, THEY GENERATED MYRIAD PARALLEL EARTHS, BILLIONS OF YEARS OF ALTERNATIVE LIVES COLLAPSED INTO SECONDS. A LITTLE MORE PHYSICS, AND THEY COULD HAVE DONE WHAT YOU CAUGHT ME DOING -- -- TURNED IT INTO A PORTAL TO THE REAL MULTIVERSE.“}. The REAL multiverse is obviously the multiverse contained within the Bleed. Later Elijah Snow even suggests that they release the Snowflake into the Bleed showing, if it was not blatantly obvious at this point, that the Bleed contains the Snowflake and not the other way around. This would mean that the Snowflake and the universes inside of it would be jettisoned into the Bleed where they would become part of the true multiverse - Planetary/The Authority: Ruling the World.
Important Outsiders Vol5 Wildstorm Content (The following is all entirely from Outsiders Vol5):
Wildstorm Cosmology
The following Wildstorm Cosmology contains information ONLY from Wildstorm (NOT Wildstorm content in the mainstream DC universe). The only exception is the recent Outsiders Vol5 which elaborates on the nature of the former Wildstorm multiverse before Wildstorm was incorporated into Prime Earth following the Flashpoint reboot. This really has no impact on any mainstream DC characters but it is still useful to have. Additionally it clarifies commonly held misunderstandings regarding the infamous Wildstorm Snowflake
which is the only thing that Wildstorm is know for in the scaling community. The greatest contribution to DC Comics from Wildstorm is the Bleed which was created by Warren Ellis and later brought into the mainstream DC where it was expanded upon by Grant Morrison.The Bleed
(The Wildstorm component) - 1A:- The bleed is the container in which every other dimension, realm, and universe is located. It is entirely beyond the characters of Wildstorm and the fabric of the bleed is never interacted with of manipulated by anyone. It is the highest structure in Wildstorm Cosmology containing and transcending everything else. The only person who scales to this level is the Void (Nikola Hansen) when tapping into the power of Captain Atom which she was able to do as a result of the connection they shared due to the Void fragment that was embedded inside Captain Atom. She too is also a Quantum being which likely further enabled this connection and without it she would not have been able to use Captain Atom’s power to reboot all of Wildstorm.
- The bleed is a dimension between all dimensions - Coup d’état
- The Bleed is infinite - The Authority Vol2 #10.
- The Bleed is infinite - Planetary/The Authority: Ruling the World.
- The Bleed is infinite - Stormwatch: Team Achilles Vol1 #23.
- High-1B: there are infinite universes, alternate realities, and higher dimensions - The Authority: Role-Playing Game And Resource Book.
- There are numerous statements of the Carrier going through non conventional dimensions like ones made of ideas or others made of music. These statement are not really scalable.
- 1B: The Snowflake, a mere finite simulation of reality, requires 196833 dimensions to function. The Snowflake is a synthetic construct used to simulate universes to determine the potential outcomes to unresolved events in order to find the best course of action.
- High-1C: Professor Q is stated to have an eleventh dimensional hyper-brain - The Monarchy #4.
- There are planes above consciousness Though this is not really scalable - The Monarchy #9.
- low-1A: There are mentions of transdimensional realms and powers as well as different vibrational levels beyond the normal dimensions contained within the bleed such as C space which contains the transdimensional shift ship the Throne which is described as outside of transdimensional continuity [they call the Bleed a backwater reality here except that is inconsistent as C space is literally shown to be within the Bleed in the same issue. This also contradicts the rest of Wildstorm continuity.] - The Monarchy #1.
I am sure there are other statements of infinite sized universes but I wasn't really looking for them so this is the only one.
- Universes are infinite in size - Mr. Majestic Vol #1.
There are infinite universes in the Wildstorm Multiverse. There is really not much to elaborate upon here as there is not nearly as much to discuss as the regular DC section in my 10,000 + word long original post a few pages back. Characters such as Jenny Quantum and perhaps The Doctor should be rated as 2A. Max Faraday, the most overhyped Wildstorm character in debating circles, does not have the feats to back up the hype or warrant a super high rating, but he should be at least low-2C for having universal power possibly 2B for making a million alternate Earths which may have actually been universes. While there are statements that he can destroy the Omniverse, it is not clear what that means in the context of Wildstorm. It is likely a synonym for multiverse as such that would be a 2A feat.
- It is stated that there are infinite universes twice in this issue - The Authority Vol3 #8.
- The bleed is described as “the infinite arterial wall between alternate universes” implying that there are infinite universes - The Authority Vol2 #10.
- The bleed is described as infinite and it is where universes are spawned as such this would mean there are infinite universes - Planetary/The Authority: Ruling the World.
- The bleed is described as infinite. As established it is where universes are created as such there are infinite universes - Stormwatch: Team Achilles Vol1 #23.
- Universes are created elsewhere in the bleed based on alternate outcomes to every possibility and situation - The Authority Vol2 #13.
- there are infinite universes, alternate realities, and higher dimensions - The Authority: Role-Playing Game And Resource Book.
- The snowflake is an advanced computer simulation: it is a very complex, 196,833 dimensional construct, containing an absolutely ridiculous (like Graham’s number large amount of universes) but it still a limited and finite simulation of reality and not the complete picture. The worlds that it simulates are real though. The snowflake, and its produced universes, are contained in the bleed.
- The story of the Monarchy sees the aforementioned team fight the infinite reality cancer the chimera which contains infinite universes - The Monarchy #4. The Chimera is an Infinitely multiplying parallel world system - The Monarchy #10. The Chimera was created due to the recklessness of the Authority when traveling between alternate universes spreading their Quantum signatures like a virus - The Monarchy #12.
- There are infinite universes within the Bleed. Alternate universes can be created by anything that has different probabilities of occurring. These new universes find their own frequency within the Bleed - The Monarchy #4.
- The throne is capable of inoculating an infinite number of worlds across the reality web super system - The Monarchy #12.
- Jenny fractal / Jenny Quantum - varies up to 2A: Jenny Fractal starts pulling all the universes in the multiverse together in a singularity - The Authority Vol2 #13. Jenny Quantum and Jenny Fractal are identical twins and Jenny Quantum’s consciousness was placed inside Jenny Fractals body after her body was killed making them literally the same person but with different minds.
- Max Faraday - low-2C possibly 2B possibly 2A: He can reshape all of time and reality on a universal scale. He created a million alternate earths which may have actually been entire universes. His power comes from the creation equation which is stated to be the greatest power in creation. He is stated to be able to destroy the Omniverse which is likely a synonym for the multiverse.
- The Void / Providence - low-2C possibly 2B possibly 2A: Void and Providence are equal beings. T.A.O with their combined power was able to overpower every hero on earth including Max Faraday. When he gets access to the creation equation along with every hero as well, he still has the upper hand over all the heroes due to his Providence and Void powers which allows him to mentally manipulate them.
Clarifications:The Snowflake needs further elaboration because there are LOTS of misconceptions online regarding it. There are some that use it as an example of higher dimensions in DC and while that is partially true, it is not entirely an accurate view as this does not show the full story. There are others that see it as the true form of the DC multiverse and that it even contains the Bleed, as seen in the following link: {} however, this view has no basis in reality and directly contradict what is clearly written in the comics. Showing why it is good to actually read the comics. The first thing that needs to be pointed out is that the Snowflake is really not that important in Wildstorm where it is from and that it is only relevant in the context of the comic series Planetary and in the accompanying one-shot Planetary/The Authority: Ruling the World. In fact the Snowflake’s notability can be narrowed down to just two comic issues: Planetary Vol1 #1 and the previously mentioned one shot Planetary/The Authority: Ruling the World. Outside of these two cases, it has no significance in the Wildstorm Cosmologyother than occasional references throughout the remainder of Planetary Vol1. There is of course a reason for that: the ultimate cosmological structure in Wildstorm is the Bleed which is not just the space between all realities but it is the “container” that holds all of Wildstorm. The Snowflake was a mere simulation from an advanced quantum computer created in the 1940s by a secret cabal of immortal scientists. The scientists wanted to create a computer that would determine the best course of action to unfolding events and what choices would result in the best outcomes for the future. In particular they wanted to solve what to do regarding World War II, what would be the actions would lead to the best outcome for humanity. The way the Snowflake works is that it simulates universes where different decisions are made. The universes it simulates are actually real not mere code. These universes are predictions of what might happen if a given choice were made but are not fake but the real thing. It is more accurate to say that the Snowflake is not a model of the Multiverse but a model of likely alternate timelines to the main Wildstorm universe. The important thing to remember about the Snowflake, is that while it produces a stupendously large amount of universes, like Graham’s number kind of large, it is still a finite and inexact version of the true multiverse. As stated several times in Wildstorm, there are infinite universes in the Bleed and no finite simulation is capable of replicating the infinite number of alternate realities. However, while the quantum computer was a success, it unfortunately had unforeseen results. During its first run, in one of the countless simulated but real realities produced within the Snowflake, the inhabitants realized that when the quantum computer completed its task and simulation ended (it was running the problem of how to solve World War 2 in the best manner) their universe would come to an end due to decoherence. Those beings, realizing their fate, invaded the main universe by entering through the Snowflake. There they fought the cabal and every member of the invading force and every member of the cabal except for Axel Brass was killed. Axel Brass, permanently crippled, stayed guard for 50 years in case anything came through from the Snowflake because he could not shut off the Brain of the computer. These events are what is directly explained and shown in the first issue of Planetary - Planetary Vol1 #1. Later, after the events of the first issue of Planetary, when some supervillain gets a hold of the Snowflake he shows a FAR greater understanding of it than even the cabal of scientists that made it and he states the following which reveals the nature of the Snowflake and its relationship with the Bleed, the ultimate reality in Wildstorm: {“FOUR YEARS I'VE BEEN ON ANALYSIS SQUAD 23, LOOKING FOR A WAY INTO THE BLEED. AND LOOK! THE COMPUTER THAT GENERATED A MULTIVERSE AS A CALCULATION TOOL! WHEN DOC BRASS HARK AND EDISON SWITCHED IT ON, THEY GENERATED MYRIAD PARALLEL EARTHS, BILLIONS OF YEARS OF ALTERNATIVE LIVES COLLAPSED INTO SECONDS. A LITTLE MORE PHYSICS, AND THEY COULD HAVE DONE WHAT YOU CAUGHT ME DOING -- -- TURNED IT INTO A PORTAL TO THE REAL MULTIVERSE.“}. The REAL multiverse is obviously the multiverse contained within the Bleed. Later Elijah Snow even suggests that they release the Snowflake into the Bleed showing, if it was not blatantly obvious at this point, that the Bleed contains the Snowflake and not the other way around. This would mean that the Snowflake and the universes inside of it would be jettisoned into the Bleed where they would become part of the true multiverse - Planetary/The Authority: Ruling the World.
Important Outsiders Vol5 Wildstorm Content (The following is all entirely from Outsiders Vol5):
- The True Snowflake (not the mere simulation from planetary) is mentioned again here for the FIRST time. (This is also the first and only time this far the Snowflake has appeared in mainstream DC outside of Wildstorm). It is said to contain an infinite number of multiverses inside it. The Snowflake is introduced as the true shape of the Wildstorm multiverse (as it is viewed in the greater DC universe within the Orrery of Worlds). The snowflake is said to contain an infinite number of multiverses. While Jakita says it is likely 196833, this is likely in reference to the dimensions in the limited computer simulation multiverse from the original planetary series that she is familiar with. As establish above, Jakita and the rest of the Planetary team are not very familiar with the true Multiverse and are more acquainted with the lesser simulated multiverse contained in the Snowflake Supercomputer. As such it is not surprising that upon encountering the Snowflake in the greater DC multiverse that she believes it to only contain 196833 multiverses. In all likelihood, given that Wildstorm is quite consistent with the number of universes being actually infinite, with there even being reality cancers like the Chimera who by themselves have infinite universes in them, there is no reason to assume that the number of multiverses is finite either. All finite universe references are solely from the fake simulated multiverse that Planetary is familiar with and not the real one contained in the Bleed. (REMEMBER, the Snowflake from the ORIGINAL Wildstorm continuity was merely a Supercomputer simulation that created alternate universes made by some super smart scientist on Earth, it is explicitly NOT the real multiverse. The Snowflake shown here in Outsiders Vol5 has NO connection whatsoever other than the name and visual depiction with the Snowflake that is shown in the original Planetary series.) Because The Carrier, used by the original Authority, is a Bleed shift ship, when the Wildstorm multiverse was removed from Continuity/Existence when Wildstorm was merged with the mainline DC universe Prime Earth (after it was already merged into the 52 multiverse in Post-Crisis Continuity in the mid 2000s as Earth-50) the carrier was not erased because it was in the Bleed and therefore was beyond the range and capacity of the reality warp that erased Wildstorm and its associated multiverse. This further shows the scale of the Bleed that the carrier was unaffected by the flashpoint by being inside of it. The Carrier can detect multiversal aberrations (things or people erased from continuity) likely via its connection to the Bleed. Later in the series, the Wildstorm Multiverse Snowflake is rediscovered as STILL existing despite having been confirmed to have been erased by the Flashpoint. This is due to Hypertime, which allows for erased realities to continue existing.
- Summary: what can be gathered from Outsiders Vol5 is that the True Snowflake, which is the shape of the Wildstorm Multiverse, contains an infinite number of multiverses and that the Snowflake has nothing to do with the main DC Multiverse.
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As a break from my previous Content, I provide you all with this Wildstorm Cosmology. I know most people probably do not care about the Wildstorm portion of DC Comics but here it is anyway.
Wildstorm Cosmology
The following Wildstorm Cosmology contains information ONLY from Wildstorm (NOT Wildstorm content in the mainstream DC universe). The only exception is the recent Outsiders Vol5 which elaborates on the nature of the former Wildstorm multiverse before Wildstorm was incorporated into Prime Earth following the Flashpoint reboot. This really has no impact on any mainstream DC characters but it is still useful to have. Additionally it clarifies commonly held misunderstandings regarding the infamous Wildstorm Snowflake
The Bleed
Higher Dimensions - up to low-1A:
- The bleed is the container in which every other dimension, realm, and universe is located. It is entirely beyond the characters of Wildstorm and the fabric of the bleed is never interacted with of manipulated by anyone. It is the highest structure in Wildstorm Cosmology containing and transcending everything else. The only person who scales to this level is the Void (Nikola Hansen) when tapping into the power of Captain Atom which she was able to do as a result of the connection they shared due to the Void fragment that was embedded inside Captain Atom. She too is also a Quantum being which likely further enabled this connection and without it she would not have been able to use Captain Atom’s power to reboot all of Wildstorm.
- The bleed is a dimension between all dimensions - Coup d’état
- The Bleed is infinite - The Authority Vol2 #10.
- The Bleed is infinite - Planetary/The Authority: Ruling the World.
- The Bleed is infinite - Stormwatch: Team Achilles Vol1 #23.
Size of universes
- High-1B: there are infinite universes, alternate realities, and higher dimensions - The Authority: Role-Playing Game And Resource Book.
- There are numerous statements of the Carrier going through non conventional dimensions like ones made of ideas or others made of music. These statement are not really scalable.
- 1B: The Snowflake, a mere finite simulation of reality, requires 196833 dimensions to function. The Snowflake is a synthetic construct used to simulate universes to determine the potential outcomes to unresolved events in order to find the best course of action.
- High-1C: Professor Q is stated to have an eleventh dimensional hyper-brain - The Monarchy #4.
- There are planes above consciousness Though this is not really scalable - The Monarchy #9.
- low-1A: There are mentions of transdimensional realms and powers as well as different vibrational levels beyond the normal dimensions contained within the bleed such as C space which contains the transdimensional shift ship the Throne which is described as outside of transdimensional continuity [they call the Bleed a backwater reality here except that is inconsistent as C space is literally shown to be within the Bleed in the same issue. This also contradicts the rest of Wildstorm continuity.] - The Monarchy #1.
I am sure there are other statements of infinite sized universes but I wasn't really looking for them so this is the only one.
Quantity of Universes:
- Universes are infinite in size - Mr. Majestic Vol #1.
There are infinite universes in the Wildstorm Multiverse. There is really not much to elaborate upon here as there is not nearly as much to discuss as the regular DC section in my 10,000 + word long original post a few pages back. Characters such as Jenny Quantum and perhaps The Doctor should be rated as 2A. Max Faraday, the most overhyped Wildstorm character in debating circles, does not have the feats to back up the hype or warrant a super high rating, but he should be at least low-2C for having universal power possibly 2B for making a million alternate Earths which may have actually been universes. While there are statements that he can destroy the Omniverse, it is not clear what that means in the context of Wildstorm. It is likely a synonym for multiverse as such that would be a 2A feat.
The Wildstorm Snowflake
- It is stated that there are infinite universes twice in this issue - The Authority Vol3 #8.
- The bleed is described as “the infinite arterial wall between alternate universes” implying that there are infinite universes - The Authority Vol2 #10.
- The bleed is described as infinite and it is where universes are spawned as such this would mean there are infinite universes - Planetary/The Authority: Ruling the World.
- The bleed is described as infinite. As established it is where universes are created as such there are infinite universes - Stormwatch: Team Achilles Vol1 #23.
- Universes are created elsewhere in the bleed based on alternate outcomes to every possibility and situation - The Authority Vol2 #13.
- there are infinite universes, alternate realities, and higher dimensions - The Authority: Role-Playing Game And Resource Book.
- The snowflake is an advanced computer simulation: it is a very complex, 196,833 dimensional construct, containing an absolutely ridiculous (like Graham’s number large amount of universes) but it still a limited and finite simulation of reality and not the complete picture. The worlds that it simulates are real though. The snowflake, and its produced universes, are contained in the bleed.
- The story of the Monarchy sees the aforementioned team fight the infinite reality cancer the chimera which contains infinite universes - The Monarchy #4. The Chimera is an Infinitely multiplying parallel world system - The Monarchy #10. The Chimera was created due to the recklessness of the Authority when traveling between alternate universes spreading their Quantum signatures like a virus - The Monarchy #12.
- There are infinite universes within the Bleed. Alternate universes can be created by anything that has different probabilities of occurring. These new universes find their own frequency within the Bleed - The Monarchy #4.
- The throne is capable of inoculating an infinite number of worlds across the reality web super system - The Monarchy #12.
- Jenny fractal / Jenny Quantum - varies up to 2A: Jenny Fractal starts pulling all the universes in the multiverse together in a singularity - The Authority Vol2 #13. Jenny Quantum and Jenny Fractal are identical twins and Jenny Quantum’s consciousness was placed inside Jenny Fractals body after her body was killed making them literally the same person but with different minds.
- Max Faraday - low-2C possibly 2B possibly 2A: He can reshape all of time and reality on a universal scale. He created a million alternate earths which may have actually been entire universes. His power comes from the creation equation which is stated to be the greatest power in creation. He is stated to be able to destroy the Omniverse which is likely a synonym for the multiverse.
- The Void / Providence - low-2C possibly 2B possibly 2A: Void and Providence are equal beings. T.A.O with their combined power was able to overpower every hero on earth including Max Faraday. When he gets access to the creation equation along with every hero as well, he still has the upper hand over all the heroes due to his Providence and Void powers which allows him to mentally manipulate them.
The Snowflake needs further elaboration because there are LOTS of misconceptions online regarding it. There are some that use it as an example of higher dimensions in DC and while that is partially true, it is not entirely an accurate view as this does not show the full story. There are others that see it as the true form of the DC multiverse and that it even contains the Bleed, as seen in the following link: {} however, this view has no basis in reality and directly contradict what is clearly written in the comics. Showing why it is good to actually read the comics. The first thing that needs to be pointed out is that the Snowflake is really not that important in Wildstorm where it is from and that it is only relevant in the context of the comic series Planetary and in the accompanying one-shot Planetary/The Authority: Ruling the World. In fact the Snowflake’s notability can be narrowed down to just two comic issues: Planetary Vol1 #1 and the previously mentioned one shot Planetary/The Authority: Ruling the World. Outside of these two cases, it has no significance in the Wildstorm Cosmologyother than occasional references throughout the remainder of Planetary Vol1. There is of course a reason for that: the ultimate cosmological structure in Wildstorm is the Bleed which is not just the space between all realities but it is the “container” that holds all of Wildstorm. The Snowflake was a mere simulation from an advanced quantum computer created in the 1940s by a secret cabal of immortal scientists. The scientists wanted to create a computer that would determine the best course of action to unfolding events and what choices would result in the best outcomes for the future. In particular they wanted to solve what to do regarding World War II, what would be the actions would lead to the best outcome for humanity. The way the Snowflake works is that it simulates universes where different decisions are made. The universes it simulates are actually real not mere code. These universes are predictions of what might happen if a given choice were made but are not fake but the real thing. It is more accurate to say that the Snowflake is not a model of the Multiverse but a model of likely alternate timelines to the main Wildstorm universe. The important thing to remember about the Snowflake, is that while it produces a stupendously large amount of universes, like Graham’s number kind of large, it is still a finite and inexact version of the true multiverse. As stated several times in Wildstorm, there are infinite universes in the Bleed and no finite simulation is capable of replicating the infinite number of alternate realities. However, while the quantum computer was a success, it unfortunately had unforeseen results. During its first run, in one of the countless simulated but real realities produced within the Snowflake, the inhabitants realized that when the quantum computer completed its task and simulation ended (it was running the problem of how to solve World War 2 in the best manner) their universe would come to an end due to decoherence. Those beings, realizing their fate, invaded the main universe by entering through the Snowflake. There they fought the cabal and every member of the invading force and every member of the cabal except for Axel Brass was killed. Axel Brass, permanently crippled, stayed guard for 50 years in case anything came through from the Snowflake because he could not shut off the Brain of the computer. These events are what is directly explained and shown in the first issue of Planetary - Planetary Vol1 #1. Later, after the events of the first issue of Planetary, when some supervillain gets a hold of the Snowflake he shows a FAR greater understanding of it than even the cabal of scientists that made it and he states the following which reveals the nature of the Snowflake and its relationship with the Bleed, the ultimate reality in Wildstorm: {“FOUR YEARS I'VE BEEN ON ANALYSIS SQUAD 23, LOOKING FOR A WAY INTO THE BLEED. AND LOOK! THE COMPUTER THAT GENERATED A MULTIVERSE AS A CALCULATION TOOL! WHEN DOC BRASS HARK AND EDISON SWITCHED IT ON, THEY GENERATED MYRIAD PARALLEL EARTHS, BILLIONS OF YEARS OF ALTERNATIVE LIVES COLLAPSED INTO SECONDS. A LITTLE MORE PHYSICS, AND THEY COULD HAVE DONE WHAT YOU CAUGHT ME DOING -- -- TURNED IT INTO A PORTAL TO THE REAL MULTIVERSE.“}. The REAL multiverse is obviously the multiverse contained within the Bleed. Later Elijah Snow even suggests that they release the Snowflake into the Bleed showing, if it was not blatantly obvious at this point, that the Bleed contains the Snowflake and not the other way around. This would mean that the Snowflake and the universes inside of it would be jettisoned into the Bleed where they would become part of the true multiverse - Planetary/The Authority: Ruling the World.
Important Outsiders Vol5 Wildstorm Content (The following is all entirely from Outsiders Vol5):
- The True Snowflake
- Summary: what can be gathered from Outsiders Vol5 is that the True Snowflake, which is the shape of the Wildstorm Multiverse, contains an infinite number of multiverses and that the Snowflake has nothing to do with the main DC Multiverse.
Excellent content! Well put together.
I had the impression that the "snowflake" described in Outsiders (2025) represents the true shape of the broader reality and contains an infinite number of Multiverses, with limited calculations suggesting 196,833 realities, and the Bleed (not the full extent that exists across the Divine Continuum) existing between them. Grant Morrison also conceptualized a "Multi-Multiverse" with the Local DC Multiverse as one bubble reality suspended within an infinite set of bubble Multiverses, which was alluded to in Death Metal with the Infinite Frontier. In this story, the Multiverse was reintegrated into the broader reality with infinite Multiverses by the Hands with all timelines and continuities restored.
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Well as I wrote the ORIGINAL Wildstorm Snowflake is merely a computer simulation, an impressively complicated one but still a simulation of reality. Outsiders Vol5 just makes it such that the Wildstorm continuity has Infinite Multiverses within it. The Snowflake is the shape of the Wildstorm reality NOT DCs. Jakita Wagner, who has taken on the mantle of former Planetary member Drummer refers to it as such and the Carrier even points out the differences between the Wildstorm multiverse and the regular mainstream DC multiverse comparing the reality of DC directly to a mere sheet of paper because it is fragile and easily susceptible to reboots and alterations. Wildstorm on the other hand did not experience any alterations during its existence besides when Void rebooted it when using Captain Atom's power. The author likely saw some Wildstorm content with the Snowflake and did not realize that the Snowflake is a simulation and not the true reality, otherwise he would have used the classic Bleed fractal / spiral imagery that is commonly associated with it. As for the BROADER REALITY I think you will find the following interesting, this is another excerpt from my overarching DC Cosmology Blog:Excellent content! Well put together.
Multiverses
There is of course more than one multiverse within the Divine Continuum. The local 52 multiverse is, as the name implies, the local component of the mainstream DC multiverse. Outside of the mainstream multiverse there at least infinite other multiverses. This even includes the original Wildstorm Continuity which in of itself contains infinite multiverses.
- The local 52 - The Multiversity Guidebook, Multiversity #2.
- The local multiverse is mentioned - Dark Nights: Metal Vol1 #1.
- The local multiverse is mentioned again - Superman Vol4 #15.
- Despite there supposedly being 52 universes there are in actuality an infinite number of universes in the main DC multiverse as explained by Rip Hunter of the Linear Men - DC: The New Frontier Special #1.
- There are megaverses which are likely some sort of collection of universes or multiverses - 52 Vol1 #52.
- There is more than one multiverse - Earth 2 Worlds End #5.
- Foreign multiversal unit detected - Future’s End #41.
- The Supergirl of Earth-10 becomes the first person from their world to cross between multiverses - Final Crisis Secret Files.
- In Multiversity, there is the carcass of the so called Multiverse-2 that the gentry were feeding on under the orders of the Empty Hand - The Multiversity Vol1 #2. We the readers would find out years later in Dark Crisis that this is the original true Pre-Crisis Multiverse. This shows that multiverses may have an identical numerical labeling convention as the universes of the main DC multiverse that is contained within the Infinite Frontier / Divine Continuum / Local Omniverse.
- There is an entire artificial multiverse created by Metron containing infinite realities - Bug! Adventures of Forager #6. These universes are all impossible realities (universes that could not occur naturally and had to be crafters artificially) - Bug! Adventures of Forager #3.
- Dominus creates and exposes Superman to an infinite multiverse likely of his own creation - Action Comics Vol1 #748.
- Pre-Crisis universes, including even the elusive Earth-Prime itself (which was definitively destroyed in crisis on infinite earths), are accessed somehow via Hypertime in Final Crisis Legion of Three Worlds. In fact, we even see the Earth-Prime Legion of Superheroes. Though this is inconsistent and goes against the established lore as Superboy Prime is supposed to be the only super-powered being in his universe but perhaps this changes by the 30th century. This shows that even during the time of Final Crisis, the Pre-Crisis Multiverse still exists via Hypertime despite having been erased.
- The Hypertime world Earth-898 is part of its own alternate Pre-Crisis Multiverse. In this multiverse, the Crisis on Infinite Earths was totally different and instead involved a giant energy amoeba called the Limbo Cell draining the multiverse of energy. This was averted by the sacrifice of Oliver Queen who had his brain transplanted into a New Gods version of Amazo allowing him to erase the Limbo Cell and himself in the process - JLA: Another Nail #3.
- DC movies, TV shows, and Animation are part of their own multiverse that exists within the Divine Continuum. This includes the Arrowverse, DCAU, DCEU, The video game verse including things like injustice and even LEGO Batman, and any other non conventional versions of DC.
- There is a multiverse of multiverses - The Unexpected Vol3 #7.
- There are infinite multiverses: "I suggested to Dan if you imagine like a champagne glass and you picture all these bubbles rising and giving form to each other, that's what the real multiverse looks like. It's a much bigger scale. It's infinite. These bubbles, there's so many of them out there that there's the Marvel multiverse and there's the DC multiverse and over there's the Archie multiverse. I figure it gives us a scope that every comics universe exists somewhere in there. But the DC Universe is the one we're familiar with - the Orrery of Worlds, as we've called it - and it's floating in this source with multiple multiverses." NOTE: Obviously, Marvel does not scale to DC and DC does not scale to Marvel (or any other IP like Archie) Both due to copyright and intellectual property ownership conflict and of course it is inconsistent and messy.
- The Infinite Frontier is an infinite web of multiverses - Dark Nights: Death Metal Vol1 #7.
- The Zero Point created infinite realities each of which is its own multiverse - Batman/Fortnite: Foundation.
- There are multiverse(s) - Infinite Frontier Vol1 #7.
- There are an infinite number of Crises - Batman Vol3 #134
- There are an infinite number of Crises as written on the prison wall by Psycho Pirate an individual who is knowledgeable of these things and is insane as a direct result of this knowledge - Flashpoint Beyond Vol1 #2.
- There are an infinite number of Crises - Justice League Odyssey Vol1 #19.
- The multiverses of the Divine Continuum are under siege by the Great Darkness - Flashpoint Beyond Vol1 #3.
- The fact that there are Multiverses and not just a singular multiverse is brought up more than once - Flashpoint Beyond Vol1 #5.
- It is explained that multiverses are constantly being created - John Stewart: The Emerald Knight.
- “Space. Time. Gravity. Quantum parallels. Multiverses. The Omniverse. Source energy. Infinite possibilities that eradicate the most preposterous of doubts. How can a kid possessing a mother box doubt the existence of anything supernatural.” - Mister Miracle: The Source of Freedom #4
- The Wildstorm Snowflake, which is only an infinitesimal portion of DC cosmology, contains its own infinite number of multiverses. Despite having been erased by the Flashpoint, the Wildstorm Continuity still exists likely due to Hypertime - Outsiders Vol5 #6.
- Harley Quinn meets versions of herself from all Multiverses - Harley Quinn Screws up the DCU Vol1 #6. In the first issue of the series this is refered to as the Crisis on Infinite Origins as such there could be infinite multiverses - Harley Quinn Screws up the DCU Vol1 #1.
- It is written on Rip Hunter’s infamous green chalk board: “Beyond the Omniverse. What's beyond it? To where?” - Flash Point Beyond Vol1 #0. This is likely in reference to the Divine Continuum Omniverse, which is first introduced on the same page, and not the Greater Omniverse itself
- Given that there are more than an uncountably infinite number of universes in the main DC multiverse, it is highly likely that there are also more than an uncountably infinite number of multiverses all contained within the greater Orrery of Worlds in the Material World beneath the Speed Force Wall.
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Not to mention that such a concept of a larger reality already existed before the Hands restarted the Multiverse. The Multiverse didn't evolve into a full-fledged Omniverse, as Death Metal led us to believe, but rather the Local Multiverse/Orrery of Worlds was reabsorbed into the larger Multiverse. The idea of the Omniverse was later revealed to be false by Lex Luthor after he and the Totality discovered the truth and lies of the Multiverse. New worlds were born in the Local Multiverse such as the Elseworld and Earth-Omega as its new centers instead of Earth-0 which used to be the core reality of the Multiverse. The Dark Multiverse still existed as the Multiverse’s underbelly. These represent the true extent of the material reality.
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I think that the stuff where Lex Luthor says the Omniverse is false is just the writers forgetting what they have previously written. This is not the first time stuff like that has happened. Death Metal established that the Divine Continuum is its own local Omniverse and this was backed up with many statements, then the writers seemed to have forgotten that this happened resulting in Lex Luthor's Comment. The same thing happened with The Convergence of Worlds event which definitively and officially established that there were infinite universes again (though as I showed previously, there were 40 statements from Post-Crisis stating that there were infinite universes and 18 such statements in the New 52 before Convergence was published so this was already a thing to begin with) yet the writers somehow forgot about this until the ending of Death Metal when it was made official again. Also I am reposting my comments on the revisions to Pre-Crisis Herald tiers from a few pages back since surprisingly nobody commented on it.
Pre-Crisis low-1C Superman Tier beings Revisions
The following section is reposted from my first post:
- Pre-Crisis - low-1C: Energy from an unknown number of Green Lantern Rings was redirected by the Time Trapper to destroy all the timelines at a SINGLE POINT in time in the 30th century. This is of course the energy that Superman and Jaxon the Might counteracted with their own power.
- Pre-Crisis - low-1C: Superman restores all the erased timelines in the previous feat by counteracting the Green Lantern energy when fighting with Jaxon the Mighty.
- Pre-Crisis - low-1C: Superman and Power Girl, while far weaker, could fight Maaldor. Maaldor is a being capable of draining the entire Green Lantern Central Power Battery and the Guardians of the universe as well as many Green Lanterns. The surviving Guardians state that he did all of this seemingly effortlessly.
- Pre-Crisis - low-1C: Superman performs a sort of brain surgery on Maaldor to prevent him from continuing to evolve into a cosmic embodiment of insanity. Superman does not scale to Maaldor in his state as a cosmic emodiment of insanity. As established, Superman and Power Girl together are weaker than a base level Maaldor though they can survive an encounter with him.
NOTE: The only way to get Post-Crisis Superman to low-1C scaling is by accepting the Pre-Crisis Green Lantern Rings feat as low-1C. This is very much reasonable and is my personal interpretation of the total number of timelines produced at just ONE point after having complied practically every statement of the number of universes and number of timelines in the entire publishing history of DC Comics. This would allow for scaling to Post-Crisis Green Lanterns as their history was not changed after the Crisis on Infinite Earths. Post-Crisis Superman and others would still be immensely inferior to Pre-Crisis Kryptonians. Though it may be best to simply keep them separate.
Pre-Crisis Superman - low-1C: Pre-Crisis Silver Age Superman almost never operates at the peak of his power or go all out against his opponents. He is, in general, an even bigger boy scout goody two shoes than his more modern version, oftentimes to a comedic and simplistic degree, and would almost never risk harming anyone. Though this attitude does vary immensely, though for the most part Pre-Crisis heroes like Superman are purely good people (the way he is supposed to be). In one of Superman’s most notable feats, The Time Trapper redirected the energy from an unknown number of green lantern rings to destroy all possible future timelines (at a certain point in the 30th century), of which there are infinite (uncountably infinite in total), except for one. The clash between Superman and Jaxon the Mighty released enough energy to counter the energy of the rings, therefore restoring all possible future timelines. After this happened, the future with the Legion exists in the main timeline and the future where Superman meets with Jaxon exists in another timeline - Superman #295. Another of Pre-Crisis Superman’s greatest feat is when he alongside Powergirl clashed with Maaldor the Dark Lord. While definitely weaker, they still managed to fight him. When Maaldor turned his power in on himself he turned into a new plane of existence, Superman and Powergirl seal the rift between his dimension of insanity and all other realities. They admit that this is only a temporary measure and that he will escape and threaten all other dimensions which he does - DC Comics Presents Vol1 #56. The base form of Maaldor is a being who can, without too much difficulty, take on the Green Lantern Corps and the Guardians of the Universe and absorb the entirety of the Green Lantern Central Power Battery.
NOTE: The Time Trapper released the Green Lantern energy into the timeline at just ONE POINT in time in the 30th century as such Superman only cancelled out low-1C destructive power for restoring uncountably infinite timelines and NOT the entire timeline of Earth-One. The total number of timelines produced from a Single Point in time is low-1C and that the collection of all timelines produced in a universe is 1C (6D). This is because every point in the timeline produces infinite timelines and based off of how timelines work in DC, those timelines go onto produce infinite timelines for each point in time and so on and so forth on into infinity. This would create an infinite^infinite situation, which is equivalent to Aleph-1 since 2^aleph-0 is aleph-1. Extending this to the entire timeline of a universe, taking into account the uncountably infinite points in the timeline of the universe, this would make the complete set of all timelines of one universe 1C (6D). This makes Pre-Crisis Superman low-1C.
NOTE: Do not scale Pre-Crisis Kryptonians to their post crisis and beyond counterparts. Pre-Crisis Kryptonians, even a young Superboy, can effortlessly travel through time through sheer speed alone, doing so on numerous occasions. In general almost everything done by Pre-Crisis Kryptonians is done extremely casually, eccept when facing the most powerful of enemies.The reboot made Superman less cheesy and cartoony, making him more serious and "realistic" but still a pillar of morality. These changes meant no more heroes winning easily ALL the time and of course no more “silly powers” like the ability to time travel casually. Ever since the Crisis on Infinite Earths, Superman lost the capability to travel at immeasurable speeds and move through time. This became a unique ability attributed solely with the flash family. In Pre-Crisis Superman stories, including in the same issue in which he fights against Jaxon the Mighty: Superman looks at his time viewing computer, sees that time has changed in the future 30th century on his “time-screen”, and then casually flies through time into the future “as he has done so many time before”. In that same issue, Superman cracking the time barrier is described as both a feat of speed and strength (immeasurable strength feet by the way). Him fixing the timeline was also seen as a feat of physical strength as well (more evidence of immeasurable strength). Post Crisis Superman even admits to the difference between himself and his Pre-Crisis version when he interacts with Superboy from the Time Trapper’s personal timeline in Action Comics #591. During this encounter Superboy easily time travels via speed and Superman, even straining, cannot keep up with him even before he enters time traveling speed. Superman admits Superboy is stronger and faster remaking that Superboy could grab a lead kryptonite canister out of his hand before he could even see him move. Another difference that is highlighted is in Pre-Crisis continuity, Superboy/Superman’s costume, particularly his special cape, is totally indestructible. This is brought up when Krypto, who Superman no longer grew up with in Post-Crisis, easily rips Superman’s cape - Action Comics #591. Some legion member remark on Superman being physically weaker than Superboy and not having his invulnerability either - Superman Vol2 #8. There are massive thematic differences between the Pre and Post Crisis era that led to a reduction in Kryptonian power levels. This is partially why Superboy Prime is driven crazy as he watches from the paradise dimension an earth that is totally immoral compared to the continuity that he came from where everything was heroic and even the villains were not nearly as evil as their Post Crisis counterparts. Though it should be noted that while Superboy Prime scales to any and all feats of Pre-Crisis Kryptonians, the Pre-Crisis Kryptonians CANNOT scale to Superboy Prime due to his unique characteristics. Much like how all squares are rectangles, not all rectangles are squares. In this case Superboy Prime is the “square” and standard Kryptonians like Superman are the “rectangle”. Compared to Post Crisis, there are very few villains that can actually challenege Superman let alone pose a real threat. Fewer still are those who are outright stronger: this small list includes Darkseid, Validius, Mongul, Time Trapper, and Mordru and a few other lesser know beings. These lesser know beings are mostly one off villains who in a few comic issues and were never fleshed out.
Maaldor The Darklord - low-1C normally | 1C (7D) as a cosmic embodiment of insanity: Maaldor is an immortal being who was born at the moment of creation of his universe. He is described as nigh-omnipotent in his history section and omnipotent in his powers section, both of which are obviously hyperbolic, but is a testament to his power. He conquered his entire universe and grew bored lacking any challenges. He summoned Superman and Powergirl from both their universe to his universe to fight “two of the most powerful beings in the multiverse” but even they were not great enough to provide a worthy challenge. Superman and Powergirl only survive by Superman tricking Maaldor to focus his powers back at him becoming a living universe and a cosmic embodiment of insanity and evil - Who's Who: The Definitive Directory of the DC Universe Vol1 #14, DC Comics Presents Vol1 #56. The next time he is seen he attempts to drive Superman into insanity by tormenting him with nightmares, making his face his greatest fears, and even mind controlling him - DC Comics Presents Vol1 #65. Eventually the madness of Maaldor undoes the barrier between his living universe of insanity and the rest of the multiverse. If not for the Phantom Stranger, Superman, and Joker working together to fix the damaged portion of Maaldor’s consciousness, it would have destroyed the multiverse itself - DC Comics Presents Vol1 #72. In his final appearance he appears to have gone back to his normal form and drains and absorbs the energy of the Green Lantern Central Power Battery. While absorbing the battery, he overpowered the Guardians of the Universe, all of their defenses, and took three guardians with him. The surviving guardians describe this as something he did effortlessly. His mind control is powerful enough to control individuals with great will power including Green Lanterns and even Guardians. He can easily absorb the Green Lantern Energy out of both Guardians and Lanterns. It was only through sacrifice that Maaldor was banished back to his dimension - Tales of the Green Lantern Corps Annual Vol1 #1, Who's Who: The Definitive Directory of the DC Universe Vol1 #14.
NOTE: Refer back to my first post on the previous page (Page 161 of this discussion thread) to see more on the nature of the universe and the multiverse.
Random Pre-Crisis Villains physically equal or superior to Superman - low-1C:
- Vartox: ~ 1X Superman
- Pulsar Stargrave: ~ 1X Superman
- Composite Superman: ~ 3X Superman
- Ultraa: at least 3X Superman (is stronger than all the Justice League members combined)
- Zha-Vam: far above Superman, could only be defeated once Superman got his own gods empowered belt
- Validus: At least 12X Superboy, he could temporarily hold off a Sun Eater with his mental lightning can easily overpower Ultra Boy, Superboy, and Mon-El at the same time
- Omega: Even Stronger than Validus
- Sun Eaters: powerful cosmic star vampires, far stronger than Validus and considered to be an extreme threat throughout Pre-Crisis Continuity.
- Starbreaker: an evolved Sun-Eater. Considered the most powerful being in the galaxy and can become stronger with energy absorption.
The following is mainly to revise the bad Time trapper profile that currently exists and to crush and belief that Superman, even the Pre-Crisis version, could ever scale to him.
The Time Trapper - Universal incarnations - 1C (6D) | Multiversal incarnation - 1C (7D) | Full Extent - low-1A : The Time Trapper, as his name implies, is an extremely powerful time manipulator. He is the embodiment of all time (particularly time with a final ending) and his citadel at the end of time is untouched by time or space - Action Comics #591. He is described as a cosmically powerful entity - Legion Of Super-Heroes Vol4 #108. His realm, the very last moment in all of time, is volatile enough that even Doomsday is granted a death here that even he can never recover from and would only later be saved by Brainiac plucking him out of the timestream just before the point of final entropy - Superman/Doomsday Hunter/Pray #3. [The Vanishing Point, the head quarters of the Linear Men is also in Time Trapper’s domain kept eternally suspended at the final moment of time]. Parallax states that at the end of time, if you have the power and knowledge, you can “look back on all that is and all that was and change it.” - Zero Hour: Crisis in Time Vol1 #4. Time Trapper can manipulate ALL time lines of the universe - Legion Of Super-Heroes Vol4 #4. Time Trapper himself has directly stated that there are Infinite time lines made for EVERY POINT in time. He oversees all of these infinite future timelines using his special Omni-computer - Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes #223. Time Trapper has access to ALL versions of the Legion of Super-Heroes. He says he access to an infinite number of Legions - Legion Of Super-Heroes Vol4 #105. He can make any moment in time its own separate universe - Legion Of Super-Heroes Vol4 #105. This is how he made the separate universe in which he preserved the history of Superboy. Superboy was removed from continuity after the Crisis on Infinite Earths. Superman first started wearing a costume as Superman in the new continuity when he was an adult, likely in his mid twenties no longer donning his costume as a boy like in Pre-Crisis. Despite this, the history and legacy of Superboy persisted due to the Time Trapper warping all timelines so the Legion would always end up in the timeline of the preserved Superboy’s universe whenever anyone travelled back in time. These actions prevented making paradox that would result in the Legion of Superheroes never coming into existence since they were inspired by the acts of Superboy - Action Comics #591. He redirected the energy from an unknown number of green lantern rings into ONE point in time to destroy all but one possible future timeline which, as established, there are an infinite (likely uncountably infinite) number of them for every point in time - Superman #295. The Time Trapper alongside his arch-rival Mordru are two of the most powerful villains from the Pre-Crisis Continuity and much of the Time Trapper’s schemes revolve around preventing the rise of Mordru or containing his reign. Ultimately such things are practically hobbies to the Time Trapper who is content to rule forever in his moment of ultimate victory: the end of time itself - Legion Of Super-Heroes Vol4 #4. Time Trapper knows pretty much everything and there is not much that surprises him, everything is preordained from his perspective and is fully aware of Parallax’s efforts to track him down and kill him. Even though he knows he is going to be killed he is aware that ultimately he will live on as he always does - Zero Hour: Crisis in Time Vol1 #1. The Time Trapper seemingly has different levels as the version that is typically seen exclusively meddles with the Earth-One / New-Earth / Prime Earth reality and not the rest of the multiverse. | Multiversal variant - 1C (7D): The Time Trapper is seemingly a multiverse spanning being and has resisted the effects of Crisis events. “The Time Trapper is a sentient force resident at the end of space/time. An aspect of cosmic entropy, it easily weathers the dramatic changes wrought by reality-revisions such as the Infinite Crisis and Zero Hour. Each time the Multiverse has changed or shifted, the Trapper has been personified by a new being. Previous examples have included: Cosmic Man, Rokk Krinn; Time Witch, Glorith; a Malthusian Controller, Lori Morning; and even the psychotic Superboy-Prime.” - DC Comics Encyclopedia: New Edition. (Entry: Time Trapper). Likely due to his nature and his immense chronal powers, he was not directly impacted by the Crisis on Infinite Earths as well as the fact that he exists outside of normal dimensionality so he “sidestepped” the effects of The Crisis on Infinite Earths - Action Comics #595. | low-1A: At his greatest capacity as a manifestation of the Timestream itself, he could be rated this high as the truest version of it’s self. (Such a key may not be justified as it is merely speculation that his status as an important component of the Timestream would grant him this level of existence). This key could just be merged with his multiverse spanning key as an upper bound to his power so instead the multiverse spanning key would read: 1C (7D) possibly low-1A.
NOTE: Other than manipulating time, Time Trappers most notable power is the fact that it is essentially impossible for him to be erased. Even when more powerful forces eliminate him, he always remains. He has been erased only to reappear, he has been killed but this can never last, he has even been usurped only for the usurper to be transformed into the Time Trapper. The Time Trapper has no real identity and it has worn the faces of countless beings. Despite any paradoxes, contradictions, continuity changes, or retcons, the Time Trapper has access to all the memories of all its iterations and is the same being despite any changes in identity or appearance. The following is a list of notable people who have been and have yet to become the Time Trapper.
- Glorith Time Trapper: As an already adept time manipulator even before becoming the Time Trapper, she demonstrates better time manipulation skills than many of the other beings who have taken up the mantle of Time Trapper (though this should not be the case given Time Trapper has access to all his memories of all his versions or eventualities)
- Cosmic Boy (Rokk Krinn)
- A Controller
- An erased alternate reality Batgirl (potentially) - Zero Hour: Crisis in Time Vol1 #0 implies that some woman becomes Time Trapper as shown in the very last panel. This woman is probably the alternate timeline batgirl that was erased from reality.
- Superboy Prime Time Trapper: He should be equal to any other incarnation of the entity. He does not display any notable feats though. In fact he is quite an unimpressive Time Trapper. He does not seem to have, or at last he doesn’t use, his reality altering powers of his younger, angrier, and more impulsive self.
- Doomsday Time Trapper: He, like Superboy Prime Time Trapper, does not display any uniquely powerful feats of his own but should be equal to all other versions. He did gather Alpha and Omega energy throughout the entirety of Prime-Earth’s Timeline to give to King Omega Superman to aid in his fight against Darkseid.
NOTE: Time Trapper is the embodiment of ultimate entropy and time as a final ending and is opposed by the Infinite Man the embodiment of time as an eternal constant and of cyclical creation. They are equal polar opposites of each other, though the Infinite Man did stalemate the Time trapper in his own realm at the end of time so he could be somewhat superior, though this may simply be due to his nature as the embodiment of time WITHOUT an end.
The Adjudicators and The Overseers - at least 1C (7D) likely low-1A: The Adjudicator is a member of a very powerful alien species that dwell in Limbo outside of the multiverse and serves the Overseers as a judge of worlds. He only appears in 3 issues but during this brief time he demonstrates some of if not the greatest feats of anyone in Pre-Crisis DC. He is capable of and was going to destroy the entire Pre-Crisis Multiverse throughout all of time. He could casually teleport to the transdimensional limbo outside of time and space and again to a space between dimensions (which was referring to Limbo). He can observe all the universes of the multiverse and can send conjured agents, the four horsemen of the apocalypse, down into these worlds. He was completely beyond the capacity of the Heroes to defeat by normal means and had to get the Adjudicator’s boss the Overseers to step in - Wonder Woman #291,292,293. It is revealed that his home dimension exists beyond the conventional worlds of the multiverse as such he side-stepped the effects of the Crisis on Infinite Earths in the same manner as the Time Trapper. The adjudicator returns in the Rebirth Era to judge worlds once again. He can peer across both the positive multiverse and the dark multiverse beyond to show different iterations of Batman and Black Canary including the Batman Who Laughs. The Adjudicator has seen incarnations of Batman and Black Canary throughout infinite realities and multiple multiversal cycles (Crisis Events): “I have watched Batman and Black Canaries don their mantles an infinite number of times, through the many cycles of the multiverse.” - Justice League of America Vol5 #25. The Adjudicator is “born of dimensions beyond the multiverse”, “I hold the fates of worlds in my hands.” He also describes his existence as infinite. He reboots Earth-8 - Justice League of America Vol5 #26.
Pre-Crisis Mr Mxyzptlk and Bat-Mite - varies up to 1C (7D): At their greatest capacity, they are far stronger than the combine might of all the Pre-Crisis Superhero’s. Mr Mxyzptlk is among the most powerful Pre-Crisis villains and beings in general. During the events of World’s Funnest Mr Mxyzptlk and Bat-Mite destroy all parallel universes, all alternate realities, all alternate universes, all divergent futures, and all alternate timelines in the past present and future. Mr Mxyzptlk destroys all numbered dimensions (including the Fifth Dimension) including those that are not whole numbers (which includes Bat-Mites home dimension which is stated to be a fractional dimension) - Worlds Funnest. Even in Pre-Crisis it is shown that there is an Earth-PI and Earth-i among many other strange universes such as an Earth-
and an Earth-
and Earth-
- Ambush Bug Vol1 #3. This shows that when Mr Mxyzptlk destroyed all dimensions he destroyed a number of universes equivalent to the set of all real number (the entire Pre-Crisis Multiverse). It is important to note that in Pre-Crisis continuity dimensions are just weird universes, operating under often mystical or unnatural laws of physics, that are different than universes that contain an Earth. The Fifth Dimension is just a magical universe centered around the planet Zrfff in the same way Earth-One is a universe centered around Earth. There are an infinite number of Fifth Dimensions as stated by Mr Mxyzptlk himself, one for each universe of the multiverse - Superman Family Vol1 #208.NOTE: Refer back to my first post on the previous page (Page 161 of this discussion thread) to see more on the nature of the universe and the multiverse.
NOTE: Even if World’s Funnest was applied to Post Crisis, it would not make any sense as Mr Mxyzptlk and Bat-Mite destroy and later reset the Fifth Dimension during their rampage. While they are two of the most powerful Imps in post Crisis Continuity, there are plenty of other 5D beings, that individually or together with others, that would prevent them from destroying their home dimension. As powerful as they are, they would be easily over powered by a mob of imps or some thunderbolts. The two Imps are simply not nearly powerful enough to do such a thing in Post Crisis Continuity nor would such a thing make sense. As such it makes perfect sense for this to have occurred in a Hypertime version of the Pre-Crisis Multiverse. Much like how Hypertime Earth-898 (the JLA Nail Universe) is the primary reality of an entire Pre-Crisis Multiverse, one that even includes its own Mr Mxyzptlk and experiences its own unique version of Crisis on Infinite Earths.
NOTE: In Pre-Crisis, the position and importance of the Fifth Dimension was not established as such if they decided to destroy it, this would not be beyond the realm of plausibility or beyond their power level. We are not really introduced to other residents of the Fifth Dimension in Pre-Crisis so is not clear if they are as powerful as the two most famous imps. Throughout Pre-Crisis Mr Mxyzptlk is portrayed as powerful, but not transcendent to all reality. In most depictions he is simply a powerful magic reality bender from an alternate dimension. There is not even just one Mr Mxyzptlk like in Post Crisis, each universe in the multiverse has its own version and corresponding Fifth Dimension. Pre-Crisis Mr Mxyzptlks are powerful but they can be killed such as the version killed in the legendary Superman story: Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow when Mr Mxyzptlk is killed by teleporting back to the Fifth Dimension at the exact moment that Superman intended on sending him to the phantom zone - Action Comics #583. While this was intended to have been the last Earth-One Superman story ever written, it was changed to have occurred on Earth-423.
Personal Confusion (maybe someone else remembers this??): In Worlds Funnest, Mr Mxyzptlk tells Bat-Mite that he destroyed all numbered dimensions including the one belonging to Bat-Mite which is stated to be fractional. At some point in DC history, some comic mentioned Bat-Mite coming from a different dimension than Mr Mxyzptlk. It was an odd dimension something like the 4.9th dimension or something like that. Unfortunately, I cannot remember in what source the 4.9th or some other strange number of dimension was mentioned in relation to Bat-Mite. It may have been stated by Bat-Mite, Mr Mxyzptlk, or maybe someone else entirely. I recall it being 4.9 or even the 4 and 10/11ths dimension (I remember it being a very weird dimension that was not the Fifth but close to five) and I am almost certain that it was stated in a Post Crisis comic. Unfortunately, I have read so many thousands of comics that I am unlikely to re-read that particular comic again. Or it was a personal Mandela Effect type situation of conflating one unrelated thing with another. I am bringing this up because as stated, Mr Mxyzptlk said he destroyed Bat-Mite’s home dimension which is explicitly stated to be fractional in nature (and not the Fifth Dimension). By finding this other source, it would solve some mysteries about Pre-Crisis depictions of Fifth Dimensional beings and differentiating between continuity.
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I feel that Lex Luthor's comment about the Omniverse being false is more about how it was perceived or conceptualized than a him saying that such an idea actually doesn't exist. The ending of Dark Nights: Death Metal #7 suggested that the Local Multiverse had become its own Omniverse, with new worlds and infinite Multiverse webs. However, the Local Multiverse did not actually become an Omniverse; it was simply reintegrated into the larger reality. This was reconfirmed by Time Trapper in DC: KO #1. Furthermore, in Flashpoint Beyond #5, it was generally thought that the Omniverse represented "everything", but Bonnie Baxter clarified that what we call "Omniverse" actually only refers to the spatial side of the Divine Continuum, but not Hypertime as temporal side.
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It's not via Hypertime actually. SBP punched the Time Trapper who is actually himself, causing a paradox that erased him from comic so he could return to his world, Earth-Prime. It sounds crazy, but Earth-Prime is depicted as our real world. In Infinite Crisis, after the multiverse was restored including Earth-Prime, Lex from Earth-3 searched for earth prime and performed a fourth-wall-breaking similar to what C.A.S (Thought Robot) did.
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To get back to this topic, how does the fact that Mister Mxyzptlk crosses the Bleed to return to the Fifth Dimension prove that the Bleed encompasses the Fifth Dimension ? The Bleed can interface with multiple layers of the DC Cosmology, including higher-dimensional or conceptual realms, but this does not imply that the Bleed fully contains or surpasses those realms in an ontological sense. I think for now we should stay on the notion that its true extent is closely connected to the Fifth Dimension as both gave very similar thematical descriptions and purposes within the DC Multiverse.
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Well it shows that the Bleed encompasses Fifth Dimensional universes in a hyper spatial manner in the same way that lesser versions of the Bleed exist in a hyper spatial manner around normal universes in the Orrery of Worlds. When Superman Prime tears a hole in the fabric of the Mr Mxyzptlk’s universe in the Fifth Dimension, the Bleed can be seen outside of it and when Mr Mxyzptlk flees back home, he moves through the Bleed to get there. And of course, there are random monsters in the Bleed that can consume the Gentry which are the extremely powerful Fifth Dimensional servants of the Empty Hand. In Strnage Visitor Superman Mr Mxyzptlk tells Superman regarding the spaceship Phaethon: “I THOUGHT YOU'D WANNA KNOW IT'S STILL THERE, TRAPPED BETWEEN BLEEDS OF REALITY.” And “THE PHAETHON'S IN A STATE FAR MORE VOLATILE THAN EVEN THE FIFTH DIMENSION'S. TRAPPED IN AN UNSTABLE STATE, A STASIS FLICKERING THROUGH REALITIES LIKE AN UNSPOOLED FILM REEL.” Mr Mxyzptlk tells Superman “YOU'VE GOT A WAYS TO SO BEFORE YOU COULD JOIN THEM. A WAYS TO TRAIN. YOU BETTER START PUMPING IRON.” This version of Superman who has Fifth Dimensional powers granted to him whenever he says NAMERPUS, Superman backwards, has to train for the entire span of the universe’s history in order to reach the Phaethon.
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I heavily disagree with Rebirth superman not scaling to Pre Crisis as Rebirth Superman/post Death Metal is the strongest he's ever been.I think that the stuff where Lex Luthor says the Omniverse is false is just the writers forgetting what they have previously written. This is not the first time stuff like that has happened. Death Metal established that the Divine Continuum is its own local Omniverse and this was backed up with many statements, then the writers seemed to have forgotten that this happened resulting in Lex Luthor's Comment. The same thing happened with The Convergence of Worlds event which definitively and officially established that there were infinite universes again (though as I showed previously, there were 40 statements from Post-Crisis stating that there were infinite universes and 18 such statements in the New 52 before Convergence was published so this was already a thing to begin with) yet the writers somehow forgot about this until the ending of Death Metal when it was made official again. Also I am reposting my comments on the revisions to Pre-Crisis Herald tiers from a few pages back since surprisingly nobody commented on it.
Pre-Crisis low-1C Superman Tier beings Revisions
The following section is reposted from my first post:
NOTE: Post Crisis / Rebirth Superman should not scale to Pre-Crisis Kryptonians. He is clearly far below Pre-Crisis Superman in both speed and destructive capacity. Pre-Crisis Kryptonians can achieve immeasurable speeds as easily as a normal person can tie their shoes. To a Pre-Crisis Kryptonian traveling at immeasurable speeds is not of any significance.
- Pre-Crisis - low-1C: Energy from an unknown number of Green Lantern Rings was redirected by the Time Trapper to destroy all the timelines at a SINGLE POINT in time in the 30th century. This is of course the energy that Superman and Jaxon the Might counteracted with their own power.
- Pre-Crisis - low-1C: Superman restores all the erased timelines in the previous feat by counteracting the Green Lantern energy when fighting with Jaxon the Mighty.
- Pre-Crisis - low-1C: Superman and Power Girl, while far weaker, could fight Maaldor. Maaldor is a being capable of draining the entire Green Lantern Central Power Battery and the Guardians of the universe as well as many Green Lanterns. The surviving Guardians state that he did all of this seemingly effortlessly.
- Pre-Crisis - low-1C: Superman performs a sort of brain surgery on Maaldor to prevent him from continuing to evolve into a cosmic embodiment of insanity. Superman does not scale to Maaldor in his state as a cosmic emodiment of insanity. As established, Superman and Power Girl together are weaker than a base level Maaldor though they can survive an encounter with him.
NOTE: The only way to get Post-Crisis Superman to low-1C scaling is by accepting the Pre-Crisis Green Lantern Rings feat as low-1C. This is very much reasonable and is my personal interpretation of the total number of timelines produced at just ONE point after having complied practically every statement of the number of universes and number of timelines in the entire publishing history of DC Comics. This would allow for scaling to Post-Crisis Green Lanterns as their history was not changed after the Crisis on Infinite Earths. Post-Crisis Superman and others would still be immensely inferior to Pre-Crisis Kryptonians. Though it may be best to simply keep them separate.
Pre-Crisis Superman - low-1C: Pre-Crisis Silver Age Superman almost never operates at the peak of his power or go all out against his opponents. He is, in general, an even bigger boy scout goody two shoes than his more modern version, oftentimes to a comedic and simplistic degree, and would almost never risk harming anyone. Though this attitude does vary immensely, though for the most part Pre-Crisis heroes like Superman are purely good people (the way he is supposed to be). In one of Superman’s most notable feats, The Time Trapper redirected the energy from an unknown number of green lantern rings to destroy all possible future timelines (at a certain point in the 30th century), of which there are infinite (uncountably infinite in total), except for one. The clash between Superman and Jaxon the Mighty released enough energy to counter the energy of the rings, therefore restoring all possible future timelines. After this happened, the future with the Legion exists in the main timeline and the future where Superman meets with Jaxon exists in another timeline - Superman #295. Another of Pre-Crisis Superman’s greatest feat is when he alongside Powergirl clashed with Maaldor the Dark Lord. While definitely weaker, they still managed to fight him. When Maaldor turned his power in on himself he turned into a new plane of existence, Superman and Powergirl seal the rift between his dimension of insanity and all other realities. They admit that this is only a temporary measure and that he will escape and threaten all other dimensions which he does - DC Comics Presents Vol1 #56. The base form of Maaldor is a being who can, without too much difficulty, take on the Green Lantern Corps and the Guardians of the Universe and absorb the entirety of the Green Lantern Central Power Battery.
NOTE: The Time Trapper released the Green Lantern energy into the timeline at just ONE POINT in time in the 30th century as such Superman only cancelled out low-1C destructive power for restoring uncountably infinite timelines and NOT the entire timeline of Earth-One. The total number of timelines produced from a Single Point in time is low-1C and that the collection of all timelines produced in a universe is 1C (6D). This is because every point in the timeline produces infinite timelines and based off of how timelines work in DC, those timelines go onto produce infinite timelines for each point in time and so on and so forth on into infinity. This would create an infinite^infinite situation, which is equivalent to Aleph-1 since 2^aleph-0 is aleph-1. Extending this to the entire timeline of a universe, taking into account the uncountably infinite points in the timeline of the universe, this would make the complete set of all timelines of one universe 1C (6D). This makes Pre-Crisis Superman low-1C.
NOTE: Do not scale Pre-Crisis Kryptonians to their post crisis and beyond counterparts. Pre-Crisis Kryptonians, even a young Superboy, can effortlessly travel through time through sheer speed alone, doing so on numerous occasions. In general almost everything done by Pre-Crisis Kryptonians is done extremely casually, eccept when facing the most powerful of enemies.The reboot made Superman less cheesy and cartoony, making him more serious and "realistic" but still a pillar of morality. These changes meant no more heroes winning easily ALL the time and of course no more “silly powers” like the ability to time travel casually. Ever since the Crisis on Infinite Earths, Superman lost the capability to travel at immeasurable speeds and move through time. This became a unique ability attributed solely with the flash family. In Pre-Crisis Superman stories, including in the same issue in which he fights against Jaxon the Mighty: Superman looks at his time viewing computer, sees that time has changed in the future 30th century on his “time-screen”, and then casually flies through time into the future “as he has done so many time before”. In that same issue, Superman cracking the time barrier is described as both a feat of speed and strength (immeasurable strength feet by the way). Him fixing the timeline was also seen as a feat of physical strength as well (more evidence of immeasurable strength). Post Crisis Superman even admits to the difference between himself and his Pre-Crisis version when he interacts with Superboy from the Time Trapper’s personal timeline in Action Comics #591. During this encounter Superboy easily time travels via speed and Superman, even straining, cannot keep up with him even before he enters time traveling speed. Superman admits Superboy is stronger and faster remaking that Superboy could grab a lead kryptonite canister out of his hand before he could even see him move. Another difference that is highlighted is in Pre-Crisis continuity, Superboy/Superman’s costume, particularly his special cape, is totally indestructible. This is brought up when Krypto, who Superman no longer grew up with in Post-Crisis, easily rips Superman’s cape - Action Comics #591. Some legion member remark on Superman being physically weaker than Superboy and not having his invulnerability either - Superman Vol2 #8. There are massive thematic differences between the Pre and Post Crisis era that led to a reduction in Kryptonian power levels. This is partially why Superboy Prime is driven crazy as he watches from the paradise dimension an earth that is totally immoral compared to the continuity that he came from where everything was heroic and even the villains were not nearly as evil as their Post Crisis counterparts. Though it should be noted that while Superboy Prime scales to any and all feats of Pre-Crisis Kryptonians, the Pre-Crisis Kryptonians CANNOT scale to Superboy Prime due to his unique characteristics. Much like how all squares are rectangles, not all rectangles are squares. In this case Superboy Prime is the “square” and standard Kryptonians like Superman are the “rectangle”. Compared to Post Crisis, there are very few villains that can actually challenege Superman let alone pose a real threat. Fewer still are those who are outright stronger: this small list includes Darkseid, Validius, Mongul, Time Trapper, and Mordru and a few other lesser know beings. These lesser know beings are mostly one off villains who in a few comic issues and were never fleshed out.
Maaldor The Darklord - low-1C normally | 1C (7D) as a cosmic embodiment of insanity: Maaldor is an immortal being who was born at the moment of creation of his universe. He is described as nigh-omnipotent in his history section and omnipotent in his powers section, both of which are obviously hyperbolic, but is a testament to his power. He conquered his entire universe and grew bored lacking any challenges. He summoned Superman and Powergirl from both their universe to his universe to fight “two of the most powerful beings in the multiverse” but even they were not great enough to provide a worthy challenge. Superman and Powergirl only survive by Superman tricking Maaldor to focus his powers back at him becoming a living universe and a cosmic embodiment of insanity and evil - Who's Who: The Definitive Directory of the DC Universe Vol1 #14, DC Comics Presents Vol1 #56. The next time he is seen he attempts to drive Superman into insanity by tormenting him with nightmares, making his face his greatest fears, and even mind controlling him - DC Comics Presents Vol1 #65. Eventually the madness of Maaldor undoes the barrier between his living universe of insanity and the rest of the multiverse. If not for the Phantom Stranger, Superman, and Joker working together to fix the damaged portion of Maaldor’s consciousness, it would have destroyed the multiverse itself - DC Comics Presents Vol1 #72. In his final appearance he appears to have gone back to his normal form and drains and absorbs the energy of the Green Lantern Central Power Battery. While absorbing the battery, he overpowered the Guardians of the Universe, all of their defenses, and took three guardians with him. The surviving guardians describe this as something he did effortlessly. His mind control is powerful enough to control individuals with great will power including Green Lanterns and even Guardians. He can easily absorb the Green Lantern Energy out of both Guardians and Lanterns. It was only through sacrifice that Maaldor was banished back to his dimension - Tales of the Green Lantern Corps Annual Vol1 #1, Who's Who: The Definitive Directory of the DC Universe Vol1 #14.
NOTE: Refer back to my first post on the previous page (Page 161 of this discussion thread) to see more on the nature of the universe and the multiverse.
Random Pre-Crisis Villains physically equal or superior to Superman - low-1C:
More Pre-Crisis Content
- Vartox: ~ 1X Superman
- Pulsar Stargrave: ~ 1X Superman
- Composite Superman: ~ 3X Superman
- Ultraa: at least 3X Superman (is stronger than all the Justice League members combined)
- Zha-Vam: far above Superman, could only be defeated once Superman got his own gods empowered belt
- Validus: At least 12X Superboy, he could temporarily hold off a Sun Eater with his mental lightning can easily overpower Ultra Boy, Superboy, and Mon-El at the same time
- Omega: Even Stronger than Validus
- Sun Eaters: powerful cosmic star vampires, far stronger than Validus and considered to be an extreme threat throughout Pre-Crisis Continuity.
- Starbreaker: an evolved Sun-Eater. Considered the most powerful being in the galaxy and can become stronger with energy absorption.
The following is mainly to revise the bad Time trapper profile that currently exists and to crush and belief that Superman, even the Pre-Crisis version, could ever scale to him.
The Time Trapper - Universal incarnations - 1C (6D) | Multiversal incarnation - 1C (7D) | Full Extent - low-1A : The Time Trapper, as his name implies, is an extremely powerful time manipulator. He is the embodiment of all time (particularly time with a final ending) and his citadel at the end of time is untouched by time or space - Action Comics #591. He is described as a cosmically powerful entity - Legion Of Super-Heroes Vol4 #108. His realm, the very last moment in all of time, is volatile enough that even Doomsday is granted a death here that even he can never recover from and would only later be saved by Brainiac plucking him out of the timestream just before the point of final entropy - Superman/Doomsday Hunter/Pray #3. [The Vanishing Point, the head quarters of the Linear Men is also in Time Trapper’s domain kept eternally suspended at the final moment of time]. Parallax states that at the end of time, if you have the power and knowledge, you can “look back on all that is and all that was and change it.” - Zero Hour: Crisis in Time Vol1 #4. Time Trapper can manipulate ALL time lines of the universe - Legion Of Super-Heroes Vol4 #4. Time Trapper himself has directly stated that there are Infinite time lines made for EVERY POINT in time. He oversees all of these infinite future timelines using his special Omni-computer - Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes #223. Time Trapper has access to ALL versions of the Legion of Super-Heroes. He says he access to an infinite number of Legions - Legion Of Super-Heroes Vol4 #105. He can make any moment in time its own separate universe - Legion Of Super-Heroes Vol4 #105. This is how he made the separate universe in which he preserved the history of Superboy. Superboy was removed from continuity after the Crisis on Infinite Earths. Superman first started wearing a costume as Superman in the new continuity when he was an adult, likely in his mid twenties no longer donning his costume as a boy like in Pre-Crisis. Despite this, the history and legacy of Superboy persisted due to the Time Trapper warping all timelines so the Legion would always end up in the timeline of the preserved Superboy’s universe whenever anyone travelled back in time. These actions prevented making paradox that would result in the Legion of Superheroes never coming into existence since they were inspired by the acts of Superboy - Action Comics #591. He redirected the energy from an unknown number of green lantern rings into ONE point in time to destroy all but one possible future timeline which, as established, there are an infinite (likely uncountably infinite) number of them for every point in time - Superman #295. The Time Trapper alongside his arch-rival Mordru are two of the most powerful villains from the Pre-Crisis Continuity and much of the Time Trapper’s schemes revolve around preventing the rise of Mordru or containing his reign. Ultimately such things are practically hobbies to the Time Trapper who is content to rule forever in his moment of ultimate victory: the end of time itself - Legion Of Super-Heroes Vol4 #4. Time Trapper knows pretty much everything and there is not much that surprises him, everything is preordained from his perspective and is fully aware of Parallax’s efforts to track him down and kill him. Even though he knows he is going to be killed he is aware that ultimately he will live on as he always does - Zero Hour: Crisis in Time Vol1 #1. The Time Trapper seemingly has different levels as the version that is typically seen exclusively meddles with the Earth-One / New-Earth / Prime Earth reality and not the rest of the multiverse. | Multiversal variant - 1C (7D): The Time Trapper is seemingly a multiverse spanning being and has resisted the effects of Crisis events. “The Time Trapper is a sentient force resident at the end of space/time. An aspect of cosmic entropy, it easily weathers the dramatic changes wrought by reality-revisions such as the Infinite Crisis and Zero Hour. Each time the Multiverse has changed or shifted, the Trapper has been personified by a new being. Previous examples have included: Cosmic Man, Rokk Krinn; Time Witch, Glorith; a Malthusian Controller, Lori Morning; and even the psychotic Superboy-Prime.” - DC Comics Encyclopedia: New Edition. (Entry: Time Trapper). Likely due to his nature and his immense chronal powers, he was not directly impacted by the Crisis on Infinite Earths as well as the fact that he exists outside of normal dimensionality so he “sidestepped” the effects of The Crisis on Infinite Earths - Action Comics #595. | low-1A: At his greatest capacity as a manifestation of the Timestream itself, he could be rated this high as the truest version of it’s self. (Such a key may not be justified as it is merely speculation that his status as an important component of the Timestream would grant him this level of existence). This key could just be merged with his multiverse spanning key as an upper bound to his power so instead the multiverse spanning key would read: 1C (7D) possibly low-1A.
NOTE: Other than manipulating time, Time Trappers most notable power is the fact that it is essentially impossible for him to be erased. Even when more powerful forces eliminate him, he always remains. He has been erased only to reappear, he has been killed but this can never last, he has even been usurped only for the usurper to be transformed into the Time Trapper. The Time Trapper has no real identity and it has worn the faces of countless beings. Despite any paradoxes, contradictions, continuity changes, or retcons, the Time Trapper has access to all the memories of all its iterations and is the same being despite any changes in identity or appearance. The following is a list of notable people who have been and have yet to become the Time Trapper.
NOTE: The universal form of time trapper is rated 1C (6D) for being able to manipulate the entirety of Earth-One/New-Earth/Prime-Earth’s timeline. Any line segment contains an uncountably infinite number of points and as stated an infinite number of timelines are made at every point in time. He can make universes from a single point in time. All of this shows that he has at the very least low-1C power. It is likely that Time Trapper is actually 1C due to the fact that all of the offshoot timelines will themself create infinite alternate timelines off into infinity. This would mean that there are infinite^Infinite (uncountably infinite timelines for EACH POINT in the universe’s timeline) making him 1C for controlling ALL timelines at every point throughout the entire timeline of the universe.
- Glorith Time Trapper: As an already adept time manipulator even before becoming the Time Trapper, she demonstrates better time manipulation skills than many of the other beings who have taken up the mantle of Time Trapper (though this should not be the case given Time Trapper has access to all his memories of all his versions or eventualities)
- Cosmic Boy (Rokk Krinn)
- A Controller
- An erased alternate reality Batgirl (potentially) - Zero Hour: Crisis in Time Vol1 #0 implies that some woman becomes Time Trapper as shown in the very last panel. This woman is probably the alternate timeline batgirl that was erased from reality.
- Superboy Prime Time Trapper: He should be equal to any other incarnation of the entity. He does not display any notable feats though. In fact he is quite an unimpressive Time Trapper. He does not seem to have, or at last he doesn’t use, his reality altering powers of his younger, angrier, and more impulsive self.
- Doomsday Time Trapper: He, like Superboy Prime Time Trapper, does not display any uniquely powerful feats of his own but should be equal to all other versions. He did gather Alpha and Omega energy throughout the entirety of Prime-Earth’s Timeline to give to King Omega Superman to aid in his fight against Darkseid.
NOTE: Time Trapper is the embodiment of ultimate entropy and time as a final ending and is opposed by the Infinite Man the embodiment of time as an eternal constant and of cyclical creation. They are equal polar opposites of each other, though the Infinite Man did stalemate the Time trapper in his own realm at the end of time so he could be somewhat superior, though this may simply be due to his nature as the embodiment of time WITHOUT an end.
The Adjudicators and The Overseers - at least 1C (7D) likely low-1A: The Adjudicator is a member of a very powerful alien species that dwell in Limbo outside of the multiverse and serves the Overseers as a judge of worlds. He only appears in 3 issues but during this brief time he demonstrates some of if not the greatest feats of anyone in Pre-Crisis DC. He is capable of and was going to destroy the entire Pre-Crisis Multiverse throughout all of time. He could casually teleport to the transdimensional limbo outside of time and space and again to a space between dimensions (which was referring to Limbo). He can observe all the universes of the multiverse and can send conjured agents, the four horsemen of the apocalypse, down into these worlds. He was completely beyond the capacity of the Heroes to defeat by normal means and had to get the Adjudicator’s boss the Overseers to step in - Wonder Woman #291,292,293. It is revealed that his home dimension exists beyond the conventional worlds of the multiverse as such he side-stepped the effects of the Crisis on Infinite Earths in the same manner as the Time Trapper. The adjudicator returns in the Rebirth Era to judge worlds once again. He can peer across both the positive multiverse and the dark multiverse beyond to show different iterations of Batman and Black Canary including the Batman Who Laughs. The Adjudicator has seen incarnations of Batman and Black Canary throughout infinite realities and multiple multiversal cycles (Crisis Events): “I have watched Batman and Black Canaries don their mantles an infinite number of times, through the many cycles of the multiverse.” - Justice League of America Vol5 #25. The Adjudicator is “born of dimensions beyond the multiverse”, “I hold the fates of worlds in my hands.” He also describes his existence as infinite. He reboots Earth-8 - Justice League of America Vol5 #26.
Pre-Crisis Mr Mxyzptlk and Bat-Mite - varies up to 1C (7D): At their greatest capacity, they are far stronger than the combine might of all the Pre-Crisis Superhero’s. Mr Mxyzptlk is among the most powerful Pre-Crisis villains and beings in general. During the events of World’s Funnest Mr Mxyzptlk and Bat-Mite destroy all parallel universes, all alternate realities, all alternate universes, all divergent futures, and all alternate timelines in the past present and future. Mr Mxyzptlk destroys all numbered dimensions (including the Fifth Dimension) including those that are not whole numbers (which includes Bat-Mites home dimension which is stated to be a fractional dimension) - Worlds Funnest. Even in Pre-Crisis it is shown that there is an Earth-PI and Earth-i among many other strange universes such as an Earth-
NOTE: Refer back to my first post on the previous page (Page 161 of this discussion thread) to see more on the nature of the universe and the multiverse.
NOTE: Even if World’s Funnest was applied to Post Crisis, it would not make any sense as Mr Mxyzptlk and Bat-Mite destroy and later reset the Fifth Dimension during their rampage. While they are two of the most powerful Imps in post Crisis Continuity, there are plenty of other 5D beings, that individually or together with others, that would prevent them from destroying their home dimension. As powerful as they are, they would be easily over powered by a mob of imps or some thunderbolts. The two Imps are simply not nearly powerful enough to do such a thing in Post Crisis Continuity nor would such a thing make sense. As such it makes perfect sense for this to have occurred in a Hypertime version of the Pre-Crisis Multiverse. Much like how Hypertime Earth-898 (the JLA Nail Universe) is the primary reality of an entire Pre-Crisis Multiverse, one that even includes its own Mr Mxyzptlk and experiences its own unique version of Crisis on Infinite Earths.
NOTE: In Pre-Crisis, the position and importance of the Fifth Dimension was not established as such if they decided to destroy it, this would not be beyond the realm of plausibility or beyond their power level. We are not really introduced to other residents of the Fifth Dimension in Pre-Crisis so is not clear if they are as powerful as the two most famous imps. Throughout Pre-Crisis Mr Mxyzptlk is portrayed as powerful, but not transcendent to all reality. In most depictions he is simply a powerful magic reality bender from an alternate dimension. There is not even just one Mr Mxyzptlk like in Post Crisis, each universe in the multiverse has its own version and corresponding Fifth Dimension. Pre-Crisis Mr Mxyzptlks are powerful but they can be killed such as the version killed in the legendary Superman story: Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow when Mr Mxyzptlk is killed by teleporting back to the Fifth Dimension at the exact moment that Superman intended on sending him to the phantom zone - Action Comics #583. While this was intended to have been the last Earth-One Superman story ever written, it was changed to have occurred on Earth-423.
Personal Confusion (maybe someone else remembers this??): In Worlds Funnest, Mr Mxyzptlk tells Bat-Mite that he destroyed all numbered dimensions including the one belonging to Bat-Mite which is stated to be fractional. At some point in DC history, some comic mentioned Bat-Mite coming from a different dimension than Mr Mxyzptlk. It was an odd dimension something like the 4.9th dimension or something like that. Unfortunately, I cannot remember in what source the 4.9th or some other strange number of dimension was mentioned in relation to Bat-Mite. It may have been stated by Bat-Mite, Mr Mxyzptlk, or maybe someone else entirely. I recall it being 4.9 or even the 4 and 10/11ths dimension (I remember it being a very weird dimension that was not the Fifth but close to five) and I am almost certain that it was stated in a Post Crisis comic. Unfortunately, I have read so many thousands of comics that I am unlikely to re-read that particular comic again. Or it was a personal Mandela Effect type situation of conflating one unrelated thing with another. I am bringing this up because as stated, Mr Mxyzptlk said he destroyed Bat-Mite’s home dimension which is explicitly stated to be fractional in nature (and not the Fifth Dimension). By finding this other source, it would solve some mysteries about Pre-Crisis depictions of Fifth Dimensional beings and differentiating between continuity.
He's capable of manhandling both King of Hell Doomsday and Time Trapper as well as fighting evenly with a bloodlusted composite Captain Atom/Monarch while holding back
The Superman of the 2020s has funnily enough more impressive showings than his N52 and Post Crisis self and as of post DM PC Superman would technically be part of him
But that's besides the point. Superman definetly has more cosmic feats/above normal herald stuff
For example Superman can beat Lobo who recently beat the brakes off of Wonder Woman too
Yes N52 and Post Crisis Superman shouldn't scale to Pre Crisis as he is considered the strongest even to the normals who don't scale comics
But saying Rebirth superman doesn't scale (imo he upscales) would be downplay imo as he has consistent feats of bodying and contesting with beings that have historically been above his abilities.
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Jonathan Kent possibly having the best bare minimum 2A feat in the verse
Being destined to beat someone who is superior to mr mxy
Superman unlimited issue 11
Being destined to beat someone who is superior to mr mxy
Superman unlimited issue 11
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Oh you mean that NONSENSE with Master Txyz? The 4D Imp?
