General DC Comics Discussion Thread

[Doggo]

Do you guys have a Power System page like Marvel did with their magic?

I'm interested in reading

 

[AyOgUyS]

Do you guys have a Power System page like Marvel did with their magic?

I'm interested in reading

Not sure, try checking the DC Comics verse page.

 

[ALEPHGOAT]

I'd highly recommend you take all this somewhere else. Nobody will want to talk to you if you aren't even following this website's standards.

Again, I don't care about CRTs. I'm asking for refutations of my document. If nobody can give them (highly likely considering that arguing against my arguments require you to ignore evidence and/or commit logical contradictions) then it's likely the Tour De Force is effectively invincible. Which is fine, I guess.

I'd highly recommend you take all this somewhere else. Nobody will want to talk to you if you aren't even following this website's standards.

Acting like this will only make us take you even less seriously.

Ayo that was a blatant joke.

I agree with a good chunk of your post, but I feel like some of your stances are too extreme.

Some of my stances in the Tour De Force are extreme, yes. They're meant to show the insanity of powerscaling as a truth-seeking activity.

I also do not like arguments like, “This work is postmodernist and trivialist, so it does not scale anywhere.”

Powerscaling works like reviewing and analyzing a documentary of an imagined world that has coherent laws. This is contingent on the documentary being an accurate depiction of an imagined world. If the docmentary isn't a truthful depicition of the 'world' so to speak, and the world itself isn't coherent, then what is there to scale?

You could improve it a lot by proposing actual realistic solutions, even if that means reaching compromises with what you personally consider “correct” in this case.

I don't care about compromising, I care about truth. I've reached a stance that can be summarized as 'powerscaling is like chess: under these rules, these conditions emerge, but the game itself isn't based on anything.'. So I'm trying to figure out---is the first part (my attempt to say, these are the most consistent rules, here is what follows from them) rock solid or is it not?

Idk what you guys were talking about but you will only "win" if this is a CRT.

You can win arguments by:
1. Proving your own position(s) through good argumentation (validity and soundness)
2. Refuting the other side (proving the arguments used to support their position(s) are neither valid nor sound)
You can win arguments even if you don't actually debate anyone of any position you're arguing with. This is how Edward Feser for instance argues against positoins that he disagrees with, as stated by long-dead people. I.e: Hume's arguments against miracles. Powerscaling is not special.

Most of your doubts would go to Tier 1 itself, not to cosmological structures of verses which you can brush off under accepted standards.

Refer to my comments about CRTs.

So if you genuinely want to debate against it go debate Ultima, don't bother or waste time of supporters. We operate under accepted system by staff. Probably as Bern told something you do can be done in powerscaling servers, reddit whatsoever, but thing you are doing isn't really useful to nuke current cosmology or scalings of fictional verses under VSBW unless you want to change fundamentally VSBW(which again it means go debate staff instead of supporters)

No, supporters actually argue for their positions. I want to see their arguments.

 

[ALEPHGOAT]

Holy head up the ass

You're not that important broski and tbf I think you should act a biiiit more restrained people want to have a decent opinion of you

I opened up that post with a joke and then was like 'okay the people here are different can I get arguments against my positions though'

 

[AyOgUyS]

Again, I don't care about CRTs. I'm asking for refutations of my document. If nobody can give them (highly likely considering that my arguments require you to ignore evidence and/or commit logical contradictions) then it's likely the Tour De Force is effectively invincible. Which is fine, I guess.

Look. We don't want to talk to someone who's arguing under completely different standards. Please take this somewhere else. Nobody is obligated to talk to you. I will not respond to your messages any further.

 

[Doggo]

You can win arguments by:
1. Proving your own position(s) through good argumentation (validity and soundness)
2. Refuting the other side (proving the arguments used to support their position(s) are neither valid nor sound)
You can win arguments even if you don't actually debate anyone of any position you're arguing with. This is how Edward Feser for instance argues against positoins that he disagrees with, as stated by long-dead people. I.e: Hume's arguments against miracles. Powerscaling is not special.

The thing is merely winning in a disccussion thread proves....nothing. You won the argument congrats, but does it change anything? If you want to put your arguments into practice then you are better of using your knowledge on making a CRT. That way you can spread your arguments and even get them accepted in the profiles if you argue well enough

This is a forum where people discuss what can and cannot enter the wiki. If you want your arguments to affect the way this wiki views the verse, then make a change and create a CRT

 

[Hecky2222]

Lucifer should be > Perpetua

I was going by profiles bro.

Lucifer doesn't have enough haxes to battle somone. FAA can just use plot to stomp him. Meanwhile Perpetua profile:
> Passive Plot Manipulation

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1; Comparable to her sons)

I know like both Umineko, DC profiles crazy outdated but I js assumed if Bern wants to make some debate under current profiles, there should be something to debate.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Some of my stances in the Tour De Force are extreme, yes. They're meant to show the insanity of powerscaling as a truth-seeking activity.

No one treats powerscaling as a “truth seeking activity.” There is no objectivity in this hobby, only positions that are more propositionally justified than others. This is not a science.

Powerscaling works like reviewing and analyzing a documentary of an imagined world that has coherent laws. This is contingent on the documentary being an accurate depiction of an imagined world. If the docmentary isn't a truthful depicition of the 'world' so to speak, and the world itself isn't coherent, then what is there to scale?

I would agree with you if the example you gave were not Umineko, which is not postmodernist and has objective cosmological truths within its intradiegetic framework.

So it is definitely scalable. Regardless, as a narrativist myself, your base argument is extremely generalist, so I cannot take it seriously.

I don't care about compromising, I care about truth. I've reached a stance that can be summarized as 'powerscaling is like chess: under these rules, these conditions emerge, but the game itself isn't based on anything.'. So I'm trying to figure out---is the first part (my attempt to say, these are the most consistent rules, here is what follows from them) rock solid or is it not?

Yeah. This is why no one takes you seriously. You are extremely pretentious.

 

[ALEPHGOAT]

Look. We don't want to talk to someone who's arguing under completely different standards.

My standards are the standards of argumentation, falsification, working under logic itself which every powerscaler uses. If you've ever tried to prove anything, congrats, you're using my standards. Especially with how I perform an immanent critique (okay so maybe not the Hegelian version but the other sense, of arguing using a system's rules to prove that the system's conclusions are wrong according to its own rules, or that the rules themselves are wrong) of Marvel/DC's ratings on VS wiki.

Please take this somewhere else.

No.

Nobody is obligated to talk to you. I will not respond to your messages any further.

Okay.

The thing is merely winning in a disccussion thread proves....nothing. You won the argument congrats, but does it change anything? If you want to put your arguments into practice then you are better of using your knowledge on making a CRT. That way you can spread your arguments and even get them accepted in the profiles if you argue well enough

Convincing someone =/= disproving or proving a position
I can fail to convince a flat earther, or a creationist. Does that mean my position is right and theirs is wrong? No. You can fail to convince someone that Superman is above planet busting. Does that mean you are wrong and they are right? No.

This is a forum where people discuss what can and cannot enter the wiki. If you want your arguments to affect the way this wiki views the verse, then make a change and create a CRT

Not my purpose.

 

[AyOgUyS]

I know like both Umineko, DC profiles crazy outdated

Yea, they are. I might do something for Superman soon to get some extra feats added to his profile.

 

[KirbyFan03]

I opened up that post with a joke and then was like 'okay the people here are different can I get arguments against my positions though'

It's hard to tell jokes via text btw

Also you're very good at debates and reasoning sure but GOLLY if people see the text you put out I think instead of reaching out to more people it's gonna isolate you

 

[Elizio33]

Prove it's headcanon.

Hecky I literally went through the VSBW blog for DC, what more do you want me to do?



You mean that I debunked DC ever being 1-A? I tried my best to. I want to see if there's any good counterarguments against my interpretation of DC cosmology.
Here's something for you.

1. The Source Wall is not 1-A. There is no non 1-A part of a 1-A thing (as in: physical composition, not avatars or ‘feelers’ like Dasein or True Form Ultima) Also, this applies to any other part of a power system. If the power system’s source is 1-A, then everything else from it MUST be 1-A—no anti-feats, nothing.
2. The Source Wall is physical, and so is the multiverse it contains.
3. The Source Wall makes the multiverse finite.
4. The Source Wall means the multiverse is not 1-A because it was summoned, damaged, etc, by non 1-A beings.

Excerpt from the Tour De Force. I want to see if you can refute this argument. Trying not to sound toxic here---I'm actually curious if you can.

The Source Wall is not only physical, for it exists across all levels of reality, even across the metaphysical or archetypal realms such as the Monitor Sphere or the Sixth Dimension. These realms are not physical places; they exist beyond ordinary space-time, at an archetypal metaphysical level, and yet the the Source Wall surrounds them. The Source Wall exists across all universes and realms across the Existence. The Local Multiverse had been isolated from the broader reality by the Source Wall since Perpetua's imprisonment and the reset of her Multiverse, but even then, previous iterations contained an infinite number of universes before the Anti-Monitor caused them to collapse into a single reality and the Source Wall enclosed them all. While it is true that the Source Wall made the Multiverse finite, your conclusions are too simplified with actual contexts.

 

[Doggo]

Convincing someone =/= disproving or proving a position
I can fail to convince a flat earther, or a creationist. Does that mean my position is right and theirs is wrong? No. You can fail to convince someone that Superman is above planet busting. Does that mean you are wrong and they are right? No.

Again this is a wiki. We see if things get accepted here in the forum. You can convince someone Superman is only city level in this thread, but that wont affect how the wiki views his scaling. The real change is in staff disccussions and CRT

Not my purpose.

Then what are you even arguing for if you intend to do nothing?

 

[AyOgUyS]

Again this is a wiki. We see if things get accepted here in the forum. You can convince someone Superman is only city level in this thread, but that wont affect how the wiki views his scaling. The real change is in staff disccussions and CRT


Then what are you even arguing for if you intend to do nothing?

Just ignore this guy. They might just be attention seeking.

 

[ALEPHGOAT]

No one treats powerscaling as a “truth seeking activity.” There is no objectivity in this hobby, only positions that are more propositionally justified than others. This is not a science.

Interesting, so I have a section of my document that addresses just this.
Here's a TL;DR of that section
1. Most powerscalers do not abide by this. If there is no truth, there is no wank, no downplay, no right or wrong results, because there's no truth to it.
2. There is and also is not objectivity in this hobby. Again, to summarize, the text itself is subjective, and the laws of logic and argumentation are objective, so we can make a series of rules to evaluate verses in the lense of powerscaling. The analogy I use is chess. We know chess isn't how real war works. We know chess pieces have no power. But we can make a set of rules determining how they work in an overall game. The problem with powerscaling is that the game isn't rooted in anything.

I would agree with you if the example you gave were not Umineko, which is not postmodernist and has objective cosmological truths within its intradiegetic framework.

So it is definitely scalable. Regardless, as a narrativist myself, your base argument is extremely generalist, so I cannot take it seriously.

Umineko has trivialism in it.

Yeah. This is why no one takes you seriously. You are extremely pretentious.

No I'm not. I stated my purpose. If I were pretentious I would, well, it wouldn't sound like this lol.

The Source Wall is not only physical, for it exists across all levels of reality, even across the metaphysical or archetypal realms such as the Monitor Sphere or the Sixth Dimension. These realms are not physical places; they exist beyond ordinary space-time, at an archetypal metaphysical level, and yet the the Source Wall surrounds them. The Source Wall exists across all universes and realms across the Existence. The Local Multiverse had been isolated from the broader reality by the Source Wall since Perpetua's imprisonment and the reset of her Multiverse, but even then, previous iterations contained an infinite number of universes before the Anti-Monitor caused them to collapse into a single reality and the Source Wall enclosed them all. While it is true that the Source Wall made the Multiverse finite, your conclusions are too simplified with actual contexts.

Alright, good counter. Now here's my debunk.
Step 1. You are misusing abstract. Abstract objects are: non local, do not exist in time or space, do not have physical mass or energy, do not have physical extension, cannot be affected by physical things. Anything that can be visited physically, seen physically, pointed to, said to be 'here' or 'not there', is not abstract. Just as an author saying that their character is a married bachelor, a square circle, etc is automatically incorrect since authors do not have permission to redefine words, DC's authors saying that these clearly physical locations with space-time are metaphysical are incorrect.
Step 2. There is no step 2. Step 1 is already good enough.

Just ignore this guy. They might just be attention seeking.

You are being excessively negative for no reason. I come here to find arguments against my position and I joke around a bit.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Umineko has trivialism in it.

 

[ALEPHGOAT]

Again this is a wiki. We see if things get accepted here in the forum. You can convince someone Superman is only city level in this thread, but that wont affect how the wiki views his scaling. The real change is in staff disccussions and CRT

You didn't address my arguments. If VS wiki is tracking consensus and not the actual 'truth' of a character's power levels then it should explicitly note this (It does not).

Then what are you even arguing for if you intend to do nothing?

I don't like being wrong.

'blue cheese has mold in it'

 

[Hecky2222]

@Antvasima please explain to this newbie, flooding general discussion chat with irrelevant things isn't good

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

'blue cheese has mold in it'

Sorry but larpers are hilarious to me!

 

[AyOgUyS]

 

[ALEPHGOAT]

@Antvasima please explain to this newbie, flooding general discussion chat with irrelevant things isn't good

If you want me to make a thread where I ask people to challenge my debunk of DC/Marvel I can do that.

 

[ALEPHGOAT]

Sorry but larpers are hilarious to me!

I don't LARP umineko. I read 2 words of Umineko and as such am not a larper!!!!
Anyway let's cut this here. Clearly this is off topic.

 

[KirbyFan03]

Just ignore this guy. They might just be attention seeking.

He does make good args but I do think he's socially inept in regards to this

We should go a bit easy given what I'm seeing

Aleph just needs to adjust the way he says things

 

[Hecky2222]

If you want me to make a thread where I ask people to challenge my debunk of DC/Marvel I can do that.

Do in Content Thread Revisions, noone cares about general discussions

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I don't LARP umineko. I read 2 words of Umineko and as such am not a larper!!!!
Anyway let's cut this here. Clearly this is off topic.

If you want to formally debate whether Umineko contains Trivialism or not, we can do it.

This is my dc: la_emptiness

 

[ALEPHGOAT]

Do in Content Thread Revisions, noone cares about general discussions

Hot damn. Looks like I'll never get a counter argument because I will never ever make a CRT. Well, that's fine.

 

[KirbyFan03]

I was going by profiles bro.

Lucifer doesn't have enough haxes to battle somone. FAA can just use plot to stomp him. Meanwhile Perpetua profile:
> Passive Plot Manipulation



I know like both Umineko, DC profiles crazy outdated but I js assumed if Bern wants to make some debate under current profiles, there should be something to debate.

Wasn't Dream of the Endless scared of Luci tho?

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Wasn't Dream of the Endless scared of Luci tho?

Yeah but that was only a manifestation of the Dream iirc.

 

[KirbyFan03]

Yeah but that was only a manifestation of the Dream iirc.

Well shit.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Well shit.

Yeah. Lucifer and his father are shaped by the Dream, the idea of the Christian Devil and God, so they are definitely subject to it.

Although personally, I think Lucifer has a “true form,” in heavy quotation marks, that fulfills the function of “adversary” across all creations, which, just like his father’s "true form", exists "outside" the Dream.

 

[KirbyFan03]

Yeah. Lucifer and his father are shaped by the Dream, the idea of the Christian Devil and God, so they are definitely subject to it.

Although personally, I think Lucifer has a “true form,” in heavy quotation marks, that fulfills the function of “adversary” across all creations, which, just like his father’s "true form", exists "outside" the Dream.

Well The Presences true form is The Unknownable so maaaybe?

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Well The Presences true form is The Unknownable so maaaybe?

If you think about it, there is an “adversary” in every religion.

In some, it is an entity with a form. In others, it is simply an abstraction that distances you from God. But that idea is always present, just as every religion has some X creative force, which can be monotheistic, pantheistic, etc.

So yeah, that “idea” is what spawns Lucifer. This is something some comics seem to imply.

 

[KirbyFan03]

On another note

Damn me and my autism

Im helping with Lantern stuff
Doing a Parademons profile
Doing DC Gods Physiology

At the same god damn time with my research and half the time I forget where my scans are

 

[Hecky2222]

Wasn't Dream of the Endless scared of Luci tho?

How does it correlate to what I was saying bro

 

[Antvasima]

@Antvasima please explain to this newbie, flooding general discussion chat with irrelevant things isn't good

There is currently way too much nonsensical spam here, yes.

 

[KirbyFan03]

How does it correlate to what I was saying bro

Dream has plot manip

But it's sorted that luci is more of a Stat brick than anything

 

[Hecky2222]

Dream has plot manip

But it's sorted that luci is more of a Stat brick than anything

Being stronger than A who has certain hax doesn't mean you can resist that hax. You can just tell Lucifer can kill Dream before he could use his plot for example(Not like his plot was very specific in place anyway) Resistances are given to feats.

 

[Wirtzwest]

Yeah. Lucifer and his father are shaped by the Dream, the idea of the Christian Devil and God, so they are definitely subject to it.

Although personally, I think Lucifer has a “true form,” in heavy quotation marks, that fulfills the function of “adversary” across all creations, which, just like his father’s "true form", exists "outside" the Dream.

Yes the role of the adversary can be seen but l do not think it is still beyond the realm of dream since dream also permeates throughout all creation. His father however can have good arguments to be beyond dream since he is the void.

 

[Hecky2222]

Since I talked about Perpetua, i want to call out some few things(I am lazy to CRT over minor stuff)
Her true state keys tells this
> Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1; Comparable to her sons)
Meanwhile somewhat Her Diminished State can overpower her sons

Outerverse level+

(Vastly superior to her three children and capable of contendinghttps://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Perpetua with their merged form, the Ultra-Monitor, despite lacking her full power)

It makes no sense to me she having some ability in "her true form" only whereas narratively it was shown she can overpower her sons in diminished state. And btw her opponent who fought him has somewhat this ability but she doesn't lol

Conceptual Manipulation (Finds cracks in the Speed Force and corrupts it)

Her true form rather has different CM since she was stated to draw powers from Source itself(thus scales to it technically in true form)

Perpetua shaped the Source’s energies into the Big Bang, through which she structured a fully realized Multiversal system, from which the Endless emerged as embodiments of its fundamental aspects

So NPI for Information 2 and CM1, as well as CM1, Info 2 should be added to her profile

 

[Nonynho]

[0-0-0] Can Batsy REALLY catch Kira? - P-Crisis Batman vs Light Yagami

-Batman hears about those suspicious heart attacks in Japan and starts acting at december 4th, 2003 (the Lind L. Taylor plan wouldn't have happened in this TL as this starts the day before) -Light knows from the Police when Batman starts helping in the case and knew that he was an american...

vsbattles.com

Heya, if anyone got the time, it'd be cool to have someone knowledgeable here

Hey, i'll be bumping this as no actual argument for batman came up until now