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Gems Soulessness removal

I see, although I actually doubt about a verse that could "soulhax" a conventional rock or a house, and if they exist I doubt is considered Soul Manipulation.

To be honest, not sure why do gems have that ability written in there profiles, is like a default ability (similar to that Brook's profile), also, that is not like weaknesses/resistances works, writting a weak point in one of the resistance just because there's a verse that can "bypass" it is pretty situational, is more a pro to the other's power.
 
Numbersguy said:
Can we stop talking about the religious stuff? I think we may be poking a bear with a stick... somewhere
Click to expand...
Well religious and philosophical views are the natural byproduct of pretty much any discussion that goes to "does X have a soul?"
 
So... it's never explicitly stated that Gems have no souls, or that souls even exist in Steven Universe right?

And Gems definitely are alive even if they aren't organic life. It's a stretch to say they're totally soulless just because they're not biological.
 
Welp, technically yes, there's no info about them lacking a soul, a general comments about souls in the franchise. Although, I should admit, beings that are capable to think as humans (with emotions and everything), can dream and even create life in a natural fashion (organic life) sounds much human like. Not even Cybertronian behave in that way.

I think that my main issue is the "soulhaxing nonexistent souls" stuff.
 
FateAlbane said:
Not sure how relevant this can be to one side or another of this discussion but according to Kep, if you hax something that is said to not have that something you are haxxing, then they should still have some form of it. He exemplified it in the Mindhax one.
Kep1Min
Click to expand...
/\
 
FateAlbane said:
Would it appease all if it was Reworded to something around the lines of "Cannot be affected by common means of Soul Manipulation, but should be susceptible to more unconventional ones such as those who can Manipulate the souls of inorganic beings or other inanimate ones"? It feels like a middle-ground to me and doesn't change the proposal of the thread or the way it's treated much.

Also the wording is just a draft for the general idea.
Click to expand...
I can get behind this rewording
 
I am not, and I repeated several times why.

There is nothing that leads to assumptions about souls in verse. At most you can note that they are not biological like what I suggested, but not anything about souls.
 
@Ricsi I mean. The end result would be literally the same, though.

It's just an arguing in semantics at this point.
 
No.

Using what you said implies that there is a standard soul manip, and it implies that they can actually resist stuff.

My version covers other stuff that needs to be on a profile, and needs less lenghty of an explaination.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
No.
Using what you said implies that there is a standard soul manip, and it implies that they can actually resist stuff.

My version covers other stuff that needs to be on a profile, and needs less lenghty of an explaination.
Click to expand...
Because there is.

There has *ALWAYS* been a standard or more basic applicatio to literally every power out there, not just soul manip. Saying every soul manipulator is on the same level or that there's no standard/basic level to a power is like saying Beerus Hakai is on the same level of Emprah's erasure since 'there's no standard level to powers'.
 
That is such a massive false equivalency in so many levels.

You are saying that me claiming that there is no standard assumption for what has a soul is like claiming that a low 2-C erasure and a 1-A are the same level.

Affecting the soul of an object is not inherently superior. The few superstitions that believe that objects have souls think them still lesser to a human soul.
 
No, you are misinterpreting what Unconventional means.

An Unconventional ability or resistance means the ability can affect things that *usually* aren't affected by the more "generic" displays of the ability. An unconventional resistance means the more "generic" uses of the power wouldn't work, unless the other character/verse has feats of affecting them - which means their power is also unconventional/more expansive/encompasses these things.

It doesn't mean it's superior. I also never said the word superior or mentioned potency. That's making a strawman then proceeding to claim I'm making false equivalency based on it.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
The few superstitions that believe that objects have souls think them still lesser to a human soul.
Click to expand...
"Few superstitions"?

I'm a bit familiar with some concepts of Shinto. Ever heard of the concept in 'Shintō called Yaoyorozu no Kami? Watch your words. You're basically comparing a traditional religion of Japan to "a few superstitions".'
 
But there is no norm or usual that you can aply to the ability. Every verse has it's own interpretaiton of it, and you can't deside which one is the

>It doesn't mean it's superior. I also never said the word superior or mentioned potency. That's making a strawman then proceeding to claim I'm making false equivalency based on it.

>Saying every soul manipulator is on the same level or that there's no standard/basic level to a power is like saying Beerus Hakai is on the same level of Emprah's erasure since 'there's no standard level to powers'.


There is no possible standard you can get for something that has no basis in an existing object, and is always the personal interpretation of whoever made it. It's like trying to put up a "standard" magic and other things of such natur.e
 
And don't you bring religion into this, because the real worlds religions are not usable for debates like this.


There is nothing about souls within the verse, and the only calim to soul resistance completely relies on restriction of the soul manipulation of the enemy. It is not getting added as a resistance, much like how it isn't to every single non-organic character.
 
@Ricsi 1. Yes we can. As you claimed above yourself, it's more common in fiction for only "organic/living/human" lifeforms or perhaps animals to have souls. Thus this is the standard. It's frequently more rare to find verses going out of their way to claim that their robots have souls. We even divide powers in types frequently to set standards for them.

2. ...What part of the things you quoted have me mentioning potency? Emprah's erasure can affect humans, souls, daemons and abstracts that Beerus can't ever hope to touch. Claiming I meant AP there and persistently saying that was my meaning when I already said it wasn't won't make it true as much as you want to believe it.

3. Return to point one.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
And don't you bring religion into this, because the real worlds religions are not usable for debates like this.
Click to expand...
Then don't try to dismiss an actual argument with "Oh only some few superstitions do this IRL" just because you may be ignoring something far bigger you're not aware of. You don't want to deal with IRL backlash? I even less. So watch what you're dismissing as "a few superstitions". You brought IRL stuff into this yourself. I'm advising you to watch out on how you do it.
 
No it isn't. Half the fiction I know that covered soul have non-organic entities with souls. And most magic works with magic within fiction (because having a magical stamina is needed in games and allows for plot devices), that is still not considered the norm


The Empherors erasure is known for it's ability to negate immortality bestowed by 1-As. And it is still a false equivalency, and also fails to understand my point.

I never claimed "every soul manipulator is on the same level". I claimed that it varies per verse, case by case.


Soul Manipulation changes in every verse it is in, putting a standard on it is absolutely useless, and there is a reason that the thousands of profiles with non-biological characters don't have it listed.
 
Chartate101 said:
Given that the concept of a soul is religious, at least in origin, religion is certainly part of this debate
Click to expand...
It isn't. This is fiction.

Whatever magic was seen as first in the real world, anything can be magic nowday in fiction regardless.
 
@Ricsi 1. Half the fiction you (or mostly anyone) knows is hardly a measurement here. There are tons of works of fiction out there. Unless you provided me with an immense list of examples of more than half of every fiction going out of its way to show robots having souls, your point rings hollow. And reaching.

2. Why are you persistently ignoring the context I already explained twice? It doesn't matter in the slightest to me what it's known for. I already told you the way my statement was supposed to be interpreted as. If you want to go against the words of the person who actually made the comparison and say I meant Y when I already explained to you that I meant X, we'll be at this forever. You can say it's a false equivalency as much as you want, but not by twisting my words.

3. I never disagreed with seeing things case by case. In fact, I probably mentioned this approach under different words.

4. But there are similarities between them. If we started ignoring standards for that matter due to every small difference between one verse to another, Ability types wouldn't even need to exist.
 
Antoniofer said:
Welp, technically yes, there's no info about them lacking a soul, a general comments about souls in the franchise. Although, I should admit, beings that are capable to think as humans (with emotions and everything), can dream and even create life in a natural fashion (organic life) sounds much human like. Not even Cybertronian behave in that way.
I think that my main issue is the "soulhaxing nonexistent souls" stuff.
Click to expand...
Not to be that guy... but Cybertronians HAVE souls

https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Spark
 
Anyways, and to better settle the matter, let's go with out current definition for the Soul Manipulation page, shall we?

Under normal circumstances, most characters are assumed to have a soul by default unless the original medium specifies otherwise. Those who do not possess are soul are usually considered to be immune to most applications of Soul Manipulation.

/\

What is the case for SU?
 
Numbersguy said:
Not to be that guy... but Cybertronians HAVE souls

https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Spark
Click to expand...
I may not known about transformers, but I think that the Spark act more like a core rather than a soul itself; humans there have soul, but when the Cybertronian dies the spark join with the All Spark and then reincarnate (I think so?) rather than go to an afterlife. I'm basing this of the little I known of transformer in the movies and beast war, so most likely is unaccurate.

But when I said that, I was refering to the capability to create life in a fashion way; Cybertronians do not reproduce nor create life in the same way a gem would do, gems (apparently) possesses DNA and sexually reploduce with a human being.
 
@Fate, as I mentioned above, SU do not make references to souls or afterlife, and the only thing that that would support that they do not possess soul is that they are inorganic. Otherwise, they act pretty human: emotions, mindscape, dreams and even sexual reproduction (that would lead to them having DNA).
 
They do have an afterlife, the Allspark is the afterlife... they don't always reincarnate, I mean, Dinobot stayed dead in Beast Wars (No, the clone does not count), Prowl died in Animated, etc

https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Transformer_afterlife

Back on the subject. I still don't think the gems have souls, by the mere fact that

A) No mention of an afterlife or a hell

B) Are not made of "living materials"

C) They are "made" and not "born"

D) Nobody has "reincarnated" or something

Also, not really... Steven is some kind of "reboot" of Rose... kinda, it was not explained
 
@Antoniofer ...I see. Going by the Soul Manip page's current definition then, that "unless the statement is there they should be considered to have one" and no mention of inorganic/artificial something something, there should accordingly be no mention of it whatsoever in the profile.

...This does not even come from my view on the matter or another now. It's literally what the current state of the page for Soul Manip says, regardless of this thread.
 
Also just want to point out that a Gem cannot technically 'die' unless its gem is completely and totally destroyed. Not just shattered, im talking ground into powder and burned to nothing. Even if theyre shattered they still exist.
 
The only time we've seen a Gem legitimately die rather than being poofed is the Smoke Monster, the gem whose gemstone was ground into powder and mixed into dye to make the living scroll that eventually became the Together Breakfast Monster. Steven burned the gem to death, it wasnt poofed or bubbled.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
The only time we've seen a Gem legitimately die rather than being poofed is the Smoke Monster, the gem whose gemstone was ground into powder and mixed into dye to make the living scroll that eventually became the Together Breakfast Monster. Steven burned the gem to death, it wasnt poofed or bubbled.
Click to expand...
I wish the cast of LOST thought of that ovo
 
Im just sitting here realizing the cruel irony that Steven of all people is the only character who has legitimately killed a Gem over the course of the entire series...
 
WeeklyBattles said:
Im just sitting here realizing the cruel irony that Steven of all people is the only character who has legitimately killed a Gem over the course of the entire series...
Click to expand...
I mean, he was super young and inexperienced then, he probably didn't KNOW that that would kill it. If anything, you could say they tricked him since they had him do it.
 
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