"Ares! Downgrade This Verse, and My Life is Yours!" ⌈GoW Downgrades, Part 1/???⌋

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Carefully read over the points, honestly, I fully agree Fuji. I don't know how some of these scans have been in use like this, it reminds me of the Sisters of Fate thread from before. Did you do a comprehensive check on all the characters or just a sample of the GoW characters?

I tried to be comprehensive, but there are surely things I missed. I didn't look too deeply into the Norse profiles, for example (though they seemed significantly more reasonably than everything from the Greek era, for some reason).

That's an insane number of words. (Where are the Touhou posts????)

Still being worked on. The first thread in that series of revisions is at 16k words right now, and is maybe 5-10% done. Hard to tell at this point, really.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Still being worked on. The first thread in that series of revisions is at 16k words right now, and is maybe 5-10% done. Hard to tell at this point, really.

5-10% done

I just need to say that you simultaneously amaze me and completely shock me at the amount of effort and passion you put into these CRTs, especially if 5-10% of you wish to make comes down to 16K words. Do you have like pages worth of words in some Microsoft Word document that you use to write this all down or what? And I'm not saying this to be rude, I genuinely think that's impressive and I quite respect the effort you can put in even if people don't always agree with you.

 

[Omnificence]

Over 9000, to be exact. I'm never beating the yapper allegations.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I just need to say that you simultaneously amaze me and completely shock me at the amount of effort and passion you put into these CRTs, especially if 5-10% of you wish to make comes down to 16K words. Do you have like pages worth of words in some Microsoft Word document that you use to write this all down or what? And I'm not saying this to be rude, I genuinely think that's impressive and I quite respect the effort you can put in even if people don't always agree with you.

I actually can't keep my yapping confined to one google doc because of the 512k character limit. The 16k word doc is just the first thread out of 50ish, and also likely the longest. Then there's the document I'm using for research, which recently hit 73k words (this is also excluding various blogs, calcs, and miscellaneous other things that aren't google docs/reworked profiles).

But we're getting a bit off topic. Feel free to post on my wall if you wanna keep discussing this.

 

[Elizhaa]

I shared Planck69's views, from what I read.

 

[CloverDragon03]

And so the counting begins...

Agree: DarkDragonMedeus (same as Planck69), Elizhaa (same as Planck69), LordGriffin1000 (same as Planck69 plus Immortality Negation), Deagonx (fully), Planck69 (Removing Thesus from ESP justification, Body Puppetry for Sirens, Telekinesis for Persephone, Life Manipulation for Oceanus, and Resistances to Helios's Status Effect Inducement; give Zeus limited Resistance to Sirens' ability), KingTempest (same as Planck69), AbaddonTheDisappointment (same as Planck69 plus Immortality Negation, Transmutation, Durability Negation, Power Nullification, Reactive Evolution, Empowerment, Resistance to Power Absorption, and Resistance to Sleep Manipulation)
Disagree: DarkDragonMedeus (same as Planck69), Elizhaa (same as Planck69), LordGriffin1000 (same as Planck69 minus Immortality Negation), Planck69 (literally everything else not in Agree or Neutral), KingTempest (same as Planck69), AbaddonTheDisappointment (same as Planck69 minus abilities mentioned to agree with removing above)
Neutral: DarkDragonMedeus (same as Planck69), Elizhaa (same as Planck69), LordGriffin1000 (same as Planck69), Planck69 (removing Transmutation and Dura Neg for Spear of Destiny and Resistance to Advanced NPI for Power of Hope), KingTempest (same as Planck69), AbaddonTheDisappointment (same as Planck69)

Updated again

 

[Deagonx]

@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara Would you prefer to simply apply the accepted changes, close this thread, and pursue the rest in smaller batches later, so the issues with them can get the appropriate attention?

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara Would you prefer to simply apply the accepted changes, close this thread, and pursue the rest in smaller batches later, so the issues with them can get the appropriate attention?

Not everyone is in agreement with which stuff should be removed and what shouldn't be removed plus 48 hours hasn't passed yet.

Also not everyone has commented. Pretty sure Bambu also wanted to give his two cents iirc.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Didn't Bambu say he was gonna comment at some point?

Edit: Ninja'd

 

[KLOL506]

Bambu, Grath and Glass all want to comment. There is still discussion ongoing. I'd rather we tackle all of this here rather than separate threads which would burn out staff more than they already have been.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I don't mind allowing this to pass and only voicing opinions on later things. Frees up some percentage of the workload, at least. I didn't anticipate this to get the staff attention it did, so I'm not as concerned as I would be otherwise.

it's nice to know we'll abandon the ideology of super hastily closing threads if I'm the one that mentions an interest in commenting though- y'all are real for that

 

[CloverDragon03]

it's nice to know we'll abandon the ideology of super hastily closing threads if I'm the one that mentions an interest in commenting though- y'all are real for that

We must allow Bambu to comment, it is simply law

I do know Glass wants to comment down the line tho so personally I'd prefer to wait on that at least. Idk where the idea that Grath wants to comment came from tho, I have not heard such a thing from her

 

[KLOL506]

We must allow Bambu to comment, it is simply law

I do know Glass wants to comment down the line tho so personally I'd prefer to wait on that at least. Idk where the idea that Grath wants to comment came from tho, I have not heard such a thing from her

Prolly from the tag that Planck gave her (And Curry claiming Grath wanted to comment but IDK)

 

[CloverDragon03]

I wouldn't make that assumption, personally. With what Bambu's said, Glass is now the only one that's expressed a desire to comment

 

[Deagonx]

Not everyone is in agreement with which stuff should be removed and what shouldn't be removed plus 48 hours hasn't passed yet.

Bambu, Grath and Glass all want to comment. There is still discussion ongoing. I'd rather we tackle all of this here rather than separate threads which would burn out staff more than they already have been.

Yes, but the vote is essentially my "agree" vs Planck x 7 with Abaddon's small handful of dissents. Glass will agree with Planck. Even if Bambu and Grath see things differently it'd take another 8 votes to pass this as is, assuming no one else says they agree with Planck.

The issue with threads this massive are that they functionally discourage a very detailed evaluation of each individual thing. Some of the abilities in question are very obviously wrong, such as the magic drain thing that Abaddon made an exception for. We can literally watch the magic bar go down!

This is 6-2 in favor of Kratos resisting this because if you throw them fast enough they don't drain any magic. If this were a thread solely about "Resistance to Power Absorption" I could probably get 4-5 additional mods to evaluate the thread, if for no other reason than sheer absurdity of it. On a thread that is essentially a 20 page paper, there is absolutely no chance of this.

I am happy to wait for Bambu (and of course, grace) and this is Fuji's thread so I will defer to her, but we should also be realistic. These are absolutely the sorts of things that need to be examined more carefully, and that won't happen in a thread this long.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Using one facet of a magic item doesn't mean it's hitting someone with every possible application of it all at once, good lord. This is just common sense at this point.

Fuji, the amulet’s abilities are used by energy blasts and projections, the same energy you're claiming to possess these effects.

Your only argument here is "it sounds silly", which like, I don't even disagree with that, but it's also not an argument. Souls aren't harder to sense just because they have more components than another soul. You would need to prove that.

No? I honestly shouldn't have been ambiguous about it, but my argument here hinges on how we treat different metaphysical aspects and that you can't interact with them the same way.

Like, a character that interacts with concepts, wouldn't mean they can interact with plot, Supernatural Luck, etc.

And so, you shouldn't be able to sense them the same regardless of those aspects, you sensing luck, wouldn't be the same as you sensing concepts.

Yes, "they" (the twins) were using "it" (the amulet) to the fullest extent that "they" (the twins) were capable of. Do you still not understand?

To clear it up, this was the line I was referring to,
"As the fight progressed, they used to it's fullest extent."

the use of it, heavily iimplies the Amulet rather then the twins, and regardless, the devs and the game make it clear that these limitations are holding back limits.

I feel like that's a massive reach when it's more likely that Kratos was just watching their movements so he could prepare to react to their next attack. Like, he doesn't need to move up until the very end, so he doesn't. That's much more straightforward than "actually he developed immunity to time stop in .5 seconds". Also like, he's still moving his head in order to track their movements, there is legitimately not a way to argue that he was incapable of moving at the time.

By just looking at the game? Yeah, I get that. But because of the context wog added, I can't really see it that way.

As for the head movements, that can just be Kratos using his eyes, since we are in first person.

You... completely missed the point, huh. The point is that they do not use their magic against him. They are trying to (emphasis on "trying"), but Kratos prevents them from doing so.

Fuji, Kratos is grabbed by Pollux for 7 straight seconds while having it on. The magic is there, it just didn't affect him.

 

[KLOL506]

The issue with threads this massive are that they functionally discourage a very detailed evaluation of each individual thing. Some of the abilities in question are very obviously wrong, such as the magic drain thing that Abaddon made an exception for. We can literally watch the magic bar go down!

You do realize that Kratos can resist the effects of the Styx and the Hades Arms without Magic Loss, yes? Both of which drain one's magic and powers. Removing the Priest scan wouldn't change anything.

 

[Deagonx]

You do realize that Kratos can resist the effects of the Styx and the Hades Arms without Magic Loss, yes? Removing the Priest scan wouldn't change anything.

I wouldn't bring it up if Planck's response had been "Well he has it from other stuff, but we can remove this scan from the justification" but instead said:

The hand is visibly glowing with said ability, so it's not really a case of pushing him off before he can fire it. The rest goes back to the "failed QTE" argument.

Or the "Mind BFR" rebuttal:

This is a lot of text to simply deny a scan for the hell of it. It says that his mind is to be sent to another world.

I recognize that I make mistakes, so, please keep me honest here KLOL. Where does the scan say the word "mind" at all?

So... why is this 6-1 in favor of keeping it? Again, the specific details are mostly moot. The time for that has basically passed since Planck has given his list and four mods agreed with it in its entirety, and Abaddon agreed with most of it. Based on past threads there's no way to really even attempt to persuade them otherwise. I am just illustrating the problem here. These topics deserve more discussion than this thread is capable of.

 

[KLOL506]

I wouldn't bring it up if Planck's response had been "Well he has it from other stuff, but we can remove this scan from the justification" but instead said:

Maybe realize that I'm ambivalent towards the Priest thing and that I can have different views from Planck?

Or the "Mind BFR" rebuttal:

I recognize that I make mistakes, so, please keep me honest here KLOL. Where does the scan say the word "mind" at all?

Also ambivalent to this but given the context regarding how souls operate in GoW and given that Persephone is literally the goddess of the Underworld who oversees souls because of her marriage to Hades (Plus the Magic stuff as a whole across the verse), it wouldn't be too far-fetched to see how Persephone's screwing with Kratos's mind like that. But I understand if you don't find my reasoning convincing so I will leave it at that. Think whatever you wish of this.

I didn't come here to argue in detail (In fact, I didn't want to argue here at all) so this is all I have to say on the matter. Please don't pester me further on this or reply to this comment, I will not respond. I just felt the need to clarify on some things here.

 

[Hellbeast]

What's the point of indexing a game verse if 95% of said verse is going to invalidated and not used.

What’s the point of arguing against gameplay being used to represent a character and then doing it anyway?

You still have cutscenes, novels, comics and more to help gauge stuff; why is it we have to rely on gameplay to prove something? Especially when these showings of “endurance” aren’t actually that good anyway?

 

[Deagonx]

Maybe realize that I'm ambivalent towards the Priest thing and that I can have different views from Planck?

You're fully entitled to your own opinion. But the point of my comment was "the Priest thing" and the issue with the votes on it as-is. If you detract from that with a work-around argument that none of the voting staff advocated for, I of course have to point that out.

given that Persephone is literally the goddess of the Underworld who oversees souls because of her marriage to Hades (Plus the Magic stuff as a whole across the verse), it wouldn't be too far-fetched to see how Persephone's screwing with Kratos's mind like that

Similarly, the provided counterargument was to accuse Fuji of "denying a scan for the hell of it" and then claiming it said something it did not say, and this was agreed with 5 times. This is an issue. Providing a less ridiculous counter-argument is just missing the point.

 

[Robo432343]

Fuji, Kratos is grabbed by Pollux for 7 straight seconds while having it on. The magic is there, it just didn't affect him.

bro...we literally see Kratos being affected by groaning in pain from that green thing...he just overpowered the guy
like come on now

 

[chosen]

bro...we literally see Kratos being affected by groaning in pain from that green thing...he just overpowered the guy
like come on now

What he resists is the age manip from it afaik, which we can tell that didn't happened as he doesn't looked aged at all

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

bro...we literally see Kratos being affected by groaning in pain from that green thing...he just overpowered the guy
like come on now

Sure, but Fuji's claims that are it(the green magic thing) would kill Kratos the instant due to this failed QTE,

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara Would you prefer to simply apply the accepted changes, close this thread, and pursue the rest in smaller batches later, so the issues with them can get the appropriate attention?

Yes, I would be fine with that. I will apply everything Planck accepted once grace ends, and work on a new, smaller thread in the meantime (no more than 3 abilities at a time, rest assured). I will also post Planck's counterarguments from this thread in those threads, as he likely won't be available for a bit.

 

[Robo432343]

Sure, but Fuji's claims that are it(the green magic thing) would kill Kratos the instant due to this failed QTE,

bro it literally says, "you are dead" and we see Kratos groaning in pain from that green magic thing

Kratos did not resist it, he avoided the devastating attack because the player actually hit L1 + O otherwise it would have killed him


ykw im just gonna quote a beautiful comment benclevername posted here
everyone should read this

"I think OP makes a good and cohesive argument here - and I tried my best to read the whole thread (not just the OP) but this back-and-forth involving QTEs is frankly embarrassing. If a game goes out of its way to showcase a character's victory in battle as being achieved through avoidance of a certain thing while simultaneously showing defeat as falling victim to the thing they would've otherwise avoided, then it's clear that the game is telling you that the victor doesn't resist it. It shouldn't even matter if they canonically won the battle, the game went out of its way to show you what would've happened if they didn't avoid it and thus communicated to the player that it's important that they did avoid it."

 

[KLOL506]

I honestly don't see the point in making new threads for the same thing again. Most of the thread's core points have an overwhelming disagree from several staff, and Glass has yet to respond (Though at this point it'd be more of a formality than anything else). Plus, making more threads on top would just lead to staff suffering from even more burn-out than they already are at this point, they're already fed up with numerous GoW downgrade threads being made in rapid succession (Not to mention they have IRL stuff to worry about until Summer Break happens in the end of May). Plus, we plan to make our own Removal threads in the future. If you do want to make threads, it should be regarding the abilities Planck was neutral about removing.

As for Planck, I'd rather he lay out his counterpoints himself instead of having someone else say it for him, otherwise it wouldn't be fair to him in the least bit. He'll most likely be available next thing tomorrow night or the night after tomorrow night.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I honestly don't see the point in making new threads for the same thing again. Most of the thread's core points have an overwhelming disagree from several staff, and Glass has yet to respond (Though at this point it'd be more of a formality than anything else). Plus, making more threads on top would just lead to staff suffering from even more burn-out than they already are at this point, they're already fed up with numerous GoW downgrade threads being made in rapid succession (Not to mention they have IRL stuff to worry about until Summer Break happens in the end of May). Plus, we plan to make our own Removal threads in the future. If you do want to make threads, it should be regarding the abilities Planck was neutral about removing.

As for Planck, I'd rather he lay out his counterpoints himself instead of having someone else say it for him, otherwise it wouldn't be fair to him in the least bit. He'll most likely be available next thing tomorrow night or the night after tomorrow night.

Too late lolToo late lol

That aside, Deagonx is correct in saying that the length of this thread has stymied any reasonable discussion of the points involved. Like, Abaddon was in agreement with Planck on the power absorption point up until he actually took a closer look at it, at which point it took him all of two minutes to realize it was bullshit. I'm also not excited to do 50 goddamn GoW threads in a row (I had planned to save that milestone for another thing), but it's the lesser of two evils at this point.

Also, to clarify something, I don't think Grath planned to comment. I mentioned over Discord that she might be one of a few people who'd comment later on, and that somehow turned into "Grath is definitely gonna comment", so it was mostly a miscommunication lol

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

bro it literally says, "you are dead" and we see Kratos groaning in pain from that green magic thing

Kratos did not resist it, he avoided the devastating attack because the player actually hit L1 + O otherwise it would have killed him

I'm sorry, how is being grabbed for 7 seconds straight while the magic is still on, not a resistance to the magic (said magic is age/time manipulation) and how is this it Kratos "avoiding", he's literally being grabbed for 7 ******* seconds.

I know I sound like a idiot by constantly saying "7 seconds!" But seriously, the argument for Kratos not resisting it is from a failed QTE where he dies by legit being touched, where the INSTANT he's touched he dies.

A noncanon, failed, QTE. Over a canon, contradictory to it, successfully QTE.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Too late lol

Your dedication to debunk verses both scares me.... and makes me really imprssed....

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

And so the counting begins...

Agree: DarkDragonMedeus (same as Planck69), Elizhaa (same as Planck69), LordGriffin1000 (same as Planck69 plus Immortality Negation), Deagonx (fully), Planck69 (Removing Thesus from ESP justification, Body Puppetry for Sirens, Telekinesis for Persephone, Life Manipulation for Oceanus, and Resistances to Helios's Status Effect Inducement; give Zeus limited Resistance to Sirens' ability), KingTempest (same as Planck69), AbaddonTheDisappointment (same as Planck69 plus Immortality Negation, Transmutation, Durability Negation, Power Nullification, Reactive Evolution, Empowerment, Resistance to Power Absorption, and Resistance to Sleep Manipulation)
Disagree: DarkDragonMedeus (same as Planck69), Elizhaa (same as Planck69), LordGriffin1000 (same as Planck69 minus Immortality Negation), Planck69 (literally everything else not in Agree or Neutral), KingTempest (same as Planck69), AbaddonTheDisappointment (same as Planck69 minus abilities mentioned to agree with removing above)
Neutral: DarkDragonMedeus (same as Planck69), Elizhaa (same as Planck69), LordGriffin1000 (same as Planck69), Planck69 (removing Transmutation and Dura Neg for Spear of Destiny and Resistance to Advanced NPI for Power of Hope), KingTempest (same as Planck69), AbaddonTheDisappointment (same as Planck69)

After reading the thread, add me to as Planck89.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

We're moving on to splitting things up at Deagonx's suggestion, so I'll just apply the accepted stuff when grace ends.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Then why not close this thread then to avoid confusion?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Then why not close this thread then to avoid confusion?

I would if I could.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

I'll ask a mod to close it then.

 

[KLOL506]

Planck is most likely to be free in a day or two and he intends on cleaning up the profiles, he said he'd apply the changes once he got the free time.

So yeah, this thread can be closed by a thread mod or admin in the meanwhile.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Ok