Garou Copying 3A CRT

[Purgy]

Can a staff member tag LordGriffin1000 again because his vote was entirely based on the idea that Garou stated he can copy limitlessly iirc

Now that it's actually been translated, I think he should be made aware so we can see his stance again.

 

[Agnaa]

"Like this."

"Persistently copying and overcoming this guy!"

There is no mention of infinity or endlessness.

Actually, to be kinder, "dokomademo" could be interpreted as sort of being endless, but it's a lot more metaphorical.

It's more like an "I'll (do action) no matter what happens" sort of term. "To the ends of the earth" is perhaps a better comparison point in English; especially since they both come from similar roots; dokomademo is constructed from "doko" (which physical location), "made" (until), and "mo" (in this context, it's answering the question of "which" with "any").

I can see why the translators chose it, since they don't care about whether their translations mislead some battleboarders.

Maybe one could get across that same impact with like "I'll copy and overcome this guy, come hell or high water!"

I like that better, I'll edit my old post to have that.

@LordGriffin1000

 

[Cryo123]

Who said? Saitama or Garou?

Garou. I think in the context of the scenario though, he's not saying Saitama's strength in that moment is limitless, I think he's saying Saitama's strength has no limit to reach, which would contextualize why he said he's copy him limitlessly. Although that's its own bucket of worms.

 

[Trax]

Actually, to be kinder, "dokomademo" could be interpreted as sort of being endless, but it's a lot more metaphorical.

It's more like an "I'll (do action) no matter what happens" sort of term. "To the ends of the earth" is perhaps a better comparison point in English; especially since they both come from similar roots; dokomademo is constructed from "doko" (which physical location), "made" (until), and "mo" (in this context, it's answering the question of "which" with "any").

I can see why the translators chose it, since they don't care about whether their translations mislead some battleboarders.

Maybe one could get across that same impact with like "I'll copy and overcome this guy, come hell or high water!"

I like that better, I'll edit my old post to have that.

@LordGriffin1000

how do i get raw scans

 

[Agnaa]

idk, ask Purgy.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

NLF. Obviously.

Disagree for reasons above.

Hit send and unfollow.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

NLF. Obviously.

Disagree for reasons above.

Hit send and unfollow.

Good thing you’re retired

 

[Cryo123]

NLF. Obviously.

Nobody said he could reach tier 0. Read the arguments, NLF doesn't even apply here.

 

[Trax]

Thanks

Spoiler

how do u get raw scans?

 

[Trax]

Good thing you’re retired

See me personally I wouldn't take that level of disrespect.

 

[Darksmash]

original text, by the way

Google translation gave me a "forever"

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I just want to ask you agnaa
can you show and provide the exact wiki standards that are compelling you to ignore the direct statements and evidence of Garou having no limits? Without that, I’m not going to be willing to proceed further, since this seems to have become a battle of standards, not of actual logic. I’d just like the know what exactly the bare minimum burden of proof I need to have is, so this is important.

 

[Purgy]

how do u get raw scans?

Various sites, not sure I'd be allowed to link them though.

 

[Trax]

Google translation gave me a "forever"

Its google translate.

 

[Agnaa]

Google translation gave me a "forever"

Machine translation has to pick one meaning out of many possible ones with zero context. But I can give you the context.

Here are four human-translated example sentences that include "dokomademo". I hope that this shows you that it is metaphorical, and doesn't just mean "forever" every time it's used. And that it helps you see how a machine translation, or a fan translator, could use "forever" if they're not worried about the battleboarding implications of such a term.

I just want to ask you agnaa
can you show and provide the exact wiki standards that are compelling you to ignore the direct statements and evidence of Garou having no limits? Without that, I’m not going to be willing to proceed further, since this seems to have become a battle of standards, not of actual logic. I’d just like the know what exactly the bare minimum burden of proof I need to have is, so this is important.

I posted them back here.

 

[Purgy]

Google translation gave me a "forever"

Agnaa went over that, it's a metaphorical "forever" as in, I'll keep copying you until the end of time etc, no reason for it to be literal.

And the important thing is that limitlessly and infinitely definitely do not exist in the text

 

[Cryo123]

See me personally I wouldn't take that level of disrespect.

I mean the difference is that you haven't done anything that warrants disrespect. You actually read the post and discussed things instead of popping in, dropping a pissant response, and then leaving to avoid critism.

 

[Trax]

Various sites, not sure I'd be allowed to link them though.

Lemme get the names at least

 

[Trax]

I mean the difference is that you haven't done anything that warrants disrespect. You actually read the post and discussed things instead of popping in, dropping a pissant response, and then leaving to avoid critism.

 

[Harith0cell]

Disagreed with this ctr

 

[Darksmash]

Here are four human-translated example sentences that include "dokomademo". I hope that this shows you that it is metaphorical, and doesn't just mean "forever" every time it's used. And that it helps you see how a machine translation, or a fan translator, could use "forever" if they're not worried about the battleboarding implications of such a term.

Well I don't know japanese at all but from the various examples of the usage of that term I am getting a "no matter what" feel from its meaning which would be fitting given the context of the Garou vs Saitama fight in the sense that Garou would copy Saitama no matter how strong he gets.

Also I asked another person that knows japanese and they translated it as "endlessly"

 

[Agnaa]

I mean, he also, in that same line, says that he'd do so to overcome Saitama, which ends up not being possible.

Given that aspect of it which later turned out to be false, it feels more like him hyping himself up to continue fighting.

 

[Maitreya12]

And once you phrase that way it isn't really an issue. Some characters end up with really niche abilities that aren't ever really useful.

Ah so it was about phrasing. And the point of contention I have is that the ability while niche is incredibly useful but is simply opted to just not work at his higher key anymore outside of special circumstances.

I think that's fine.

I do not as I find it to be equally as bad as claiming someone who can increase their ability by 1.5x can increase their ability by 10^9999x.

It doesn't need that, it's just that without them it's capped at their feats. A lot of verses are practically capped on the site, because while their abilities sound really broad, they get so few feats that they aren't particularly useful. Being that strict likely isn't what the author intended, but I think you can get way worse violations of what the author intended by being too loose. Caelius West can manipulate words to warp reality, rearranging words into new ones, then imposing the effects of that new word on reality. But he's only shown one feat for it that involved him sacrificing himself. While realistically, the author believes he can do more than that, I think we'd quickly get outside of stuff the author conceived of as possible for the story if we wrote our own abilities for other words he could form.

It would undoubtedly need that, because as I described, without that mechanism for the story, there would be quite literally nothing that can be done to prove an ever increase of finite AP, regardless of the compounding evidence. The issue is that literally no feat could ever satisfy this requirement nor any statement

Going back to the point from before, even if I did copy someone who’s 1.0 x10^99999999999999 whatever times, all you’d need to do was just add a .000 whatever 1 to the value and that would satisfy the stipulate for not validating the increase, and that would be taken regardless of whatever supporting evidence of it.

I think each interpretation, whether it be being too strict or too loose, can equally and viably go outside what the author intended. There’s really no way in determining which is “worse” in that regard. Hence why each situation is taken by a case by case basis. I don’t know anything about the character that you posted, but from the description of his ability, it sounds like the author was strict on the mechanics of the ability no?

 

[Maitreya12]

I mean, he also, in that same line, says that he'd do so to overcome Saitama, which ends up not being possible.

Given that aspect of it which later turned out to be false, it feels more like him hyping himself up to continue fighting.

This argument doesn’t hold up and the reason is very simple.

Regardless of Saitama actually being limitless, if Garou believes Saitama to be limitless then that must also by extension mean he believes his copying ability to be limitless. Because that’s the only way the statement would make sense. And Garou’s words for his ability are more reliable and credible than his words for Saitama because Saitama is an outside person that Garou knows nothing about while his copying power is literally an ability in his arsenal, thereby making his statement in reference to his copying ability more credible than his statement about Saitama.

As for the raw scans, idk both translations I’ve seen say essentially the same word of either “infinite” or “limitless” so I guess both versions are viable.

 

[Agnaa]

I don’t know anything about the character that you posted, but from the description of his ability, it sounds like the author was strict on the mechanics of the ability no?

Naw he just only came up once and died a few paragraphs later.

About Saitama being limitless, idk if those translations get across an appropriate nuance when placed in a battleboarding context.

 

[Darksmash]

I mean, he also, in that same line, says that he'd do so to overcome Saitama, which ends up not being possible.

Given that aspect of it which later turned out to be false, it feels more like him hyping himself up to continue fighting.

Well that's because he didn't anticipate Saitama's growth speed outpacing his own ability to keep up and copy him again. That wouldn't invalidate his observation on his ability to copy Saitama endlessly/no matter what.

 

[Maitreya12]

Naw he just only came up once and died a few paragraphs later.

About Saitama being limitless, idk if those translations get across an appropriate nuance when placed in a battleboarding context.

No I’m saying like the explanation of what the ability was itself. That was explained right? Cause from the profile I saw something along the lines of “goes into a lower dimension that holds all material concepts and can control all material concepts from that lower realm” or something along those lines.

As for the statement, like I said idk but the statement of being limitless seems to be as viable or make sense given the context of the scenario in verse.

 

[Pikaman]

See me personally I wouldn't take that level of disrespect.

Found Random’s alt

 

[RamizDayii]

I would like to write why I don't agree with this revision, but I am late and I don't have an explanation other than what the people who don't agree with the revision. I won't comment to avoid repetition because Agnaa has already said what I mean.

I disagree with the revision. If an extra point of view comes to my mind, I'll try to write it.

 

[Cryo123]

I mean, he also, in that same line, says that he'd do so to overcome Saitama, which ends up not being possible.

Given that aspect of it which later turned out to be false, it feels more like him hyping himself up to continue fighting.

I don't think so. I think it's more that Saitama's growth is just too fast to the point that by the time he copies Saitama's strength, he can't perfect it because Saitama is already so much stronger.

 

[Recon1511]

The fact that people are still arguing about wheter or not Saitama has infinite growth after we are literally told that in the manga baffles me

 

[Cryo123]

The fact that people are still arguing about wheter or not Saitama has infinite growth after we are literally told that in the manga baffles me

Not even infinite growth, limitless growth.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Machine translation has to pick one meaning out of many possible ones with zero context. But I can give you the context.

Here are four human-translated example sentences that include "dokomademo". I hope that this shows you that it is metaphorical, and doesn't just mean "forever" every time it's used. And that it helps you see how a machine translation, or a fan translator, could use "forever" if they're not worried about the battleboarding implications of such a term.

I posted them back here.

well, on one hand I’d like to say that I think the wiki’s standards are stupid and arbitrary, to the point where it often fails to overlap with actual logical conclusions and just makes things messy and annoying

But regardless, I’d still say that limiters themselves are a good enough explanation. The thing that matters here is that limiters themselves are an in universe function which would be responsible for characters having limits to begin with, and removing that would just allow them to reach 3-A if they have the means to increase their power. Because as the wiki treats it now, limiters quite literally do not exist in the OPM verse, and it’d just be ignoring it completely because we decided it must be nlf.

The fact is, we have far more than enough evidence from a logical standpoint for Garou not having an upper limit, and the only thing in the way of logic is just an interpretation of wiki standards. Either the revision goes through, or this system is just ass.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Can a staff member tag LordGriffin1000 again because his vote was entirely based on the idea that Garou stated he can copy limitlessly iirc

Now that it's actually been translated, I think he should be made aware so we can see his stance again.

Actually, to be kinder, "dokomademo" could be interpreted as sort of being endless, but it's a lot more metaphorical.

It's more like an "I'll (do action) no matter what happens" sort of term. "To the ends of the earth" is perhaps a better comparison point in English; especially since they both come from similar roots; dokomademo is constructed from "doko" (which physical location), "made" (until), and "mo" (in this context, it's answering the question of "which" with "any").

I can see why the translators chose it, since they don't care about whether their translations mislead some battleboarders.

Maybe one could get across that same impact with like "I'll copy and overcome this guy, come hell or high water!"

I like that better, I'll edit my old post to have that.

@LordGriffin1000

Hmm, going to change my vote to neutral then. I haven't kept up with the thread too much but I can see both side of the argument.

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

I'm going to disagree. It's a very large assumption that Garou would be able to raise his power to 3-A by copying an opponent since there's no evidence of this. Though his copying ability is significant with how he jumped from High 4-C to 4-A, I don't think that logic is automatically applicable. Garou's ability to copy clearly has a limit, since he wasn't able to match Saitama's exponential growth rate despite copying him. Therefore, it seems more like a NLF for Garou to be capable of making another large jump like this.

 

[Cryo123]

Garou's ability to copy clearly has a limit, since he wasn't able to match Saitama's exponential growth rate despite copying him.

That's not a limit to how high he can copy, it just shows that someone who is constantly growing really quickly can nulify the use of this ability.

Here's what I mean. Let's give random numbers for this example.

Garou's power is 5, and his opponent is 10, when he copies a normal opponent, his power is now a 10, and then he can grw further through RE, 11, 12, so on and so forth.

In the same scenario, when Garou copies Saitama's 10, Saitama jumps up to 20 before Garou can really use his RE. And then when he copies Saitama's 20, Saitama jumps to a 100. And then when Garou copies Saitama's 100, Saitama's now at 1000.

In this example, Garou's growth isn't limited, yet the gap in their power is still increasing. (At first their power difference was x2, then x5, then x10, and so on and so forth) as he's constantly playing the catchup game to Saitama's insane (and exponential) AD.

So the NLF doesn't apply here.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I'm going to disagree. It's a very large assumption that Garou would be able to raise his power to 3-A by copying an opponent since there's no evidence of this. Though his copying ability is significant with how he jumped from High 4-C to 4-A, I don't think that logic is automatically applicable. Garou's ability to copy clearly has a limit, since he wasn't able to match Saitama's exponential growth rate despite copying him. Therefore, it seems more like a NLF for Garou to be capable of making another large jump like this.

Ok just gonna point out that arguments like this are NOT okay. If you are going to disagree with something like this, at least know what actually happened in the fight
Garou was blatantly able to copy Saitama's power, the only reason he lost is because even though he spammed it throughout the fight, saitama's AD made him instantly stronger than the power Garou had copied. Absolutely nothing about it had to do with Saitama being too strong to copy, that was never implied at any point in the fight.

 

[Eseseso]

Neutral

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Can we make this a knowledgable members only thread

 

[Cryo123]

Can we make this a knowledgable members only thread

No because then the only person left to disagree would be Purgy and I don't want him to be crushed by a wave of "I agree FRA"