Garou Copying 3A CRT

[Darksmash]

I'm pretty sure he can copy any ap. But he can't copy every single hax and ability he sees.

Yea if he could copy any ability he would have copied Saitama's evolution.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I'm pretty sure he can copy any ap. But he can't copy every single hax and ability he sees.

That's what the AP is thinking, yes.

He can copy any AP ?

If he can copy any AP, then saitama Evolution won't have mattered, as the AP he gained from that boost will just be copied, but he gets left in the dust.

 

[LNZO19]

Saitama outpaced Garou's copying ability, he didn't surpass it.

Say if a character is like a trillion x baseline 3-A. You think Garou is copying that AP diff instantly or do you think he would get there over time?

My comment was meant to lead into the thought of there at least being a limit to how much AP can be copied at once. The Garou jump from 4-C to 4-A worth of joules or 20-30 zeros, like mentioned by the OP, would have to be assumed to be a gap Garou can do multiple times like I mentioned before to think he can bridge the gap to 3-A or higher instantly.

Whether or not he can go indefinitely into 3-A is something I'm more neutral on.

 

[Agnaa]

Yea we don't have the exact mechanism. But what if person A has an endlessly increasing power level which we know from context shouldn't have an upper limit(Saitama doesn't have a limiter) and person B makes an unbiased observation that no matter how strong he becomes he can match A's power level?

Even if that was the case, as I said, no mechanism, no dice.

If an opponent shows him their strength, he instantly copies it.
That's it.
That's the whole mechanic.
Setting an arbitrary limit, and saying "If X character has a power higher than Y, then the mechanic simply stop working" is very retrograded.

"The ability works by working" is not a mechanism.

The limit isn't arbitrary; it's because we don't know what the limit and restrictions would be, because we don't know how it works. All we have are the feats of it working, so we limit it to those feats.

I don't think it's illogical to disagree with that sort of lowballing, but it's something this site has been doing for years upon years. Beyond me liking those standards, I don't want Garou to be the one exception to it.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

If he can copy any AP, then saitama Evolution won't have mattered, as the AP he gained from that boost will just be copied, but he gets left in the dust.

The moment he copies Saitama, Saitama grows stronger. It's not a passive copy.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Yea we don't have the exact mechanism. But what if person A has an endlessly increasing power level which we know from context shouldn't have an upper limit(Saitama doesn't have a limiter) and person B makes an unbiased observation that no matter how strong he becomes he can match A's power level?

Even if that was the case, as I said, no mechanism, no dice.

If an opponent shows him their strength, he instantly copies it.
That's it.
That's the whole mechanic.
Setting an arbitrary limit, and saying "If X character has a power higher than Y, then the mechanic simply stop working" is very retrograded.

"The ability works by working" is not a mechanism.

The limit isn't arbitrary; it's because we don't know what the limit and restrictions would be, because we don't know how it works. All we have are the feats of it working, so we limit it to those feats.

I don't think it's illogical to disagree with that sort of lowballing, but it's something this site has been doing for years upon years. Beyond me liking those standards, I don't want Garou to be the one exception to it.

The mechanics are, "it just happens", one can use the fact Garou knows the flow of all energy and has knowledge of all of the cosmos to give an explanation, or just say "magic martial arts", but there is no official explanation, it's just shounen magic. This need for an explanation is moot, because there would be a need for a stated restriction for one to be assumed, both hold the burden of proof in this case. The limit is again, arbitrary, it requires the hax to not work beyond a certain point for no reason, literally no reason.

Expressing this in programming would be.
"If strength = known/comprehended
then copying = true
If strength > R
then copying = false"

That's it. That's the mechanic, that's how it's shown to happen. He should be able to copy any finite AP.

He comprehends/watches the person use X amount of strength, does a pose, attributed to his martial art skills and/or knowledge of the flows/energy of the universe, and that person's strength is replicated in a mode (which he can then use as his base power), essentially, cloning the person's very strength as if he transform into them at that specific moment in time. How the replication itself happens is quite literally irrelevant and can just be throw aside as "manga magic power system".

 

[PrinceofPein]

The moment he copies Saitama, Saitama grows stronger. It's not a passive copy.

This does not explain the gap growing larger and larger.
The entire thing is he could not keep up with someone in the same tier getting stronger exponentially but somehow he should be able to keep up with a 3-A instantly before he gets vaporized?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

This does not explain the gap growing larger and larger.
The entire thing is he could not keep up with someone in the same tier getting stronger exponentially but somehow he should be able to keep up with a 3-A instantly before he gets vaporized?

This is caused by Saitama's ability. He copies Saitama, then Saitama grows stronger by X amount. Garou copies the stronger Saitama, then said Saitama grows stronger by an exponentially higher amount than before. It's Saitama's growth between each copy that's growing larger, it has literally nothing to do with Garou.

 

[PrinceofPein]

This is caused by Saitama's ability. He copies Saitama, then Saitama grows stronger by X amount. Garou copies the stronger Saitama, then said Saitama grows stronger by an exponentially higher amount than before. It's Saitama's growth between each copy that's growing larger, it has literally nothing to do with Garou.

If he could not copy saitama because his growth was getting larger, why would he copy someone who is quadrilions of times stronger than saitama?
Make it make sense

 

[Greatsage13th]

If he could not copy saitama because his growth was getting larger, why would he copy someone who is quadrilions of times stronger than saitama?
Make it make sense

You got the wrong idea. It's basically rate of growth vs rate of growth. It has nothing to do with their stats rather, their abilities' frequency to increase their stats.

 

[LaserPrecision]

If he could not copy saitama because his growth was getting larger, why would he copy someone who is quadrilions of times stronger than saitama?
Make it make sense

I'm completely neutral on this thread, but I think you're misunderstanding what they're trying to say. Garou is not having any trouble copying Saitama's AP. He's having trouble copying Saitama's growing AP in rapid succession. This is because Garou's ability is not passive, it takes time to activate.

Let's slow this down to human speed. Say it takes 1 second of thinking to activate Garou's ability. He could copy Saitama's AP no matter how finitely high it is. The problem is Saitama's rate of growth is too constant and fast for Garou to keep up with. Saitama is 100, Garou copies and becomes 100. Saitama shoots up to 500, Garou copies 500, Saitama shoots to 10,000, Garou CAN copy it, but he has to wait 1 second. During that 1 second it takes for Garou to activate the ability, Saitama can overwhelm Garou without issue. Then when Garou does catch up, it's too late as Saitama grew stronger once again, and now Saitama has another 1 second to beat on Garou before he can copy him.

 

[Agnaa]

The mechanics are, "it just happens", one can use the fact Garou knows the flow of all energy and has knowledge of all of the cosmos to give an explanation, or just say "magic martial arts", but there is no official explanation, it's just shounen magic. This need for an explanation is moot, because there would be a need for a stated restriction for one to be assumed, both hold the burden of proof in this case. The limit is again, arbitrary, it requires the hax to not work beyond a certain point for no reason, literally no reason.

You can believe that, but that's not how the site as a whole treats joule-based abilities.

It's not how we treat attack reflection, durability negation, invulnerability, or forcefields. This has been discussed multiple times and been agreed upon every time.

I think that in light of there being no information, we should not assume that everything is secretly arbitrarily high into 3-A and never breaks. We should only say that it can do what we're confident that it can do.

 

[PrinceofPein]

You got the wrong idea. It's basically rate of growth vs rate of growth. It has nothing to do with their stats rather, their abilities' frequency to increase their stats.

These does not still change what I am saying, the only way he can copy a 3-A power is to be able to copy the power instantly, if he has not shown the ability to be able to copy that gap instantly, why should we assume he can?

I'm completely neutral on this thread, but I think you're misunderstanding what they're trying to say. Garou is not having any trouble copying Saitama's AP. He's having trouble copying Saitama's growing AP in rapid succession. This is because Garou's ability is not passive, it takes time to activate.

Let's slow this down to human speed. Say it takes 1 second of thinking to activate Garou's ability. He could copy Saitama's AP no matter how finitely high it is. The problem is Saitama's rate of growth is too constant and fast for Garou to keep up with. Saitama is 100, Garou copies and becomes 100. Saitama shoots up to 500, Garou copies 500, Saitama shoots to 10,000, Garou CAN copy it, but he has to wait 1 second. During that 1 second it takes for Garou to activate the ability, Saitama can overwhelm Garou without issue. Then when Garou does catch up, it's too late as Saitama grew stronger once again, and now Saitama has another 1 second to beat on Garou before he can copy him.

Then I think people misunderstood me, my bad then.
What I meant is that, the only way Garou can fight a 3-A, is to be able to copy that power instantly he sees the 3-A throwing a punch.
He has never been shown to be able to do that.

 

[LaserPrecision]

What I meant is that, the only way Garou can fight a 3-A, is to be able to copy that power instantly he sees the 3-A throwing a punch.
He has never been shown to be able to do that.

They're arguing he can if the opponent doesn't have RE that outpaces how fast it takes to activate the ability. If Saitama was just 3-A with no RE, Garou could copy it immediately and fight on par with Saitama. At least that's how it would work on the side arguing for it.

 

[Greatsage13th]

They're arguing he can if the opponent doesn't have RE that outpaces how fast it takes to activate the ability. If Saitama was just 3-A with no RE, Garou could copy it immediately and fight on par with Saitama. At least that's how it would work on the side arguing for it.

Exactly

 

[PrinceofPein]

They're arguing he can if the opponent doesn't have RE that outpaces how fast it takes to activate the ability. If Saitama was just 3-A with no RE, Garou could copy it immediately and fight on par with Saitama. At least that's how it would work on the side arguing for it.

That's the thing yeah, "may" and "could" is not an Argument.

It never happened so it would be NLF, garou is not an exception

 

[LaserPrecision]

That's the thing yeah, "may" and "could" is not an Argument.

It never happened so it would be NLF, garou is not an exception

While I'm still neutral, that seems like you just shifted the goal posts. Before your argument was that he can't adapt infinitely because what I believe to be a misunderstanding you had about their argument. Now it's that "may" and "could" isn't acceptable. You didn't address if you were indeed wrong on that last point now that I've elaborated on their point.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

instantly

Drop this word, immediately. He can copy 3-A if he is faced with someone with 3-A, using said power. It takes the exact same time as any other copy. The Saitama situation does not contradict this whatsoever.

 

[Agnaa]

Quick question, so lets say I make my own manga and I have many statements of my character being completely immune to lets say light. He shows the ability of being immune to the light. Even if my character were to be village level and he was fighting someone who was universal but only uses elemental power. Does that immunity still apply or is it disregarded due to the huge difference in ap and dc.

What does it mean to be "immune to light"? If it's that vague it would be disregarded, because 3-A light would have carry 3-A amounts of energy that would wreck the character.

We also don't take the word "immunity" very seriously. We don't consider characters who withstand 2000 degree fires and are called "immune to heat" to be able to withstand 10^26 degree fires.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

You can believe that, but that's not how the site as a whole treats joule-based abilities.

Please do show me the guidelines where this is written, verbatim.
If it's not written anywhere, then, oh well too bad, we're going to keep asking any of you for a logical justification.

It's not how we treat attack reflection

It's not equivalent to this situation.

durability negation

It's not equivalent to this situation.

invulnerability

It's not equivalent to this situation.

or forcefields

This-
Actually yeah, if the forcefield just copies the strength of the attacker to bounce it off, yes, we do consider that it can block basically anything under the finite curve.

I think that in light of there being no information, we should not assume that everything is secretly arbitrarily high into 3-A and never breaks. We should only say that it can do what we're confident that it can do.

"is"? Do you not comprehend what's been discussed?
It's not any specific value, it's not 3-A, 4-A, 3-B, ANYTHING.
It's as strong as Garou's opponent is. Because he can just mimic the exact strength of his opponent in a specific point in time. I gave you the information below all this mess.

It's not arbitrary. The restriction is arbitrary.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Drop this word, immediately. He can copy 3-A if he is faced with someone with 3-A, using said power. It takes the exact same time as any other copy. The Saitama situation does not contradict this whatsoever.

Things like "he can copy any power level, at exact same time" is NLF.
He should be given what he can copy within the confines of what he was shown to do.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Things like "he can copy any power level, at exact same time" is NLF.
He should be given what he can copy within the confines of what he was shown to do.

He has been shown to copy finite values regardless if they are unreasonably higher than what he was capable of doing before the copy. It's not NLF, the limit here would be anything on the infinity side of things.

He cannot copy any power level. He can only copy any finite, 3-Dimensional power level.

"At the exact same time"? Brother, this means the hax takes the exact same time to take effect. It's not time based, it's not "the bigger the gap, the more time it takes", it's literally just "I do pose, now I got your power level".

That's it. That's all that's needed. It's impossible to show Garou copying all finite values in existence, because surprise, there's are an Infinite amount of them. We're giving an ability, a lack of restriction, and we see it working with unreasonably higher values than the character is capable of. It's enough.

 

[Agnaa]

Please do show me the guidelines where this is written, verbatim.
If it's not written anywhere, then, oh well too bad, we're going to keep asking any of you for a logical justification.

There's this part of the wording of the Invulnerability page:

It can be considered the defensive equivalent of Durability Negation, negating simple Attack Potency, though one should be careful not to apply No Limits Fallacy.

This is distinct from simply particularly high durability, which may make a character seem invulnerable to weaker opponents. Only characters whose invulnerability is clearly more than simply being exceptionally durable for the verse's setting qualify.

Profiles whose invulnerability is limited to working on only certain kinds of attacks should have the ability listed as Limited and/or have the limitation described in the profile's weaknesses section.

The thread where this wording was initially decided on was here; you can clearly see from the OP that the thread was seeking to explicitly require mechanisms for these sorts of abilities (and had already done so for Durability Negation), and you can see that the thread was accepted. The thread was later revived because Dereck contested it, when it was again agreed to work that way. You should consider widely-agreed-upon threads that drive the wording on pages as evidence for what the words on those pages mean.

Gagamaru Chougasaki used to have this wording on his page:

Beware the No-Limit Fallacy. While Encounter has demonstrated no limits or exceptions, except Scar Dead, the strongest and fastest attacks it was demonstrated or reliably stated to work against were City Block level attacks performed at the Speed of Light. It can not be reliably argued that Encounter would work against vastly more powerful attacks.

This was made to no longer be a note because "it was only shown to work on 8-B SoL attacks" was moved to the justification for Regen.

@DontTalkDT and @Wokistan may know of some other examples.

It's not equivalent to this situation.

They're not the same, but the similarity I'm drawing is "They're both abilities that interact with the joule values a character can output/tank, and none of them let you assume they'll work on 3-As without a good mechanism. So this ability which interacts with the joule values a character can output should follow the same standards." If you disagree with that comparison, please explain why.

"is"? Do you not comprehend what's been discussed?

My bad, I should have said "is capable of becoming". Apologies for that wording slip-up.

 

[Darksmash]

Say if a character is like a trillion x baseline 3-A. You think Garou is copying that AP diff instantly or do you think he would get there over time?

My comment was meant to lead into the thought of there at least being a limit to how much AP can be copied at once. The Garou jump from 4-C to 4-A worth of joules or 20-30 zeros, like mentioned by the OP, would have to be assumed to be a gap Garou can do multiple times like I mentioned before to think he can bridge the gap to 3-A or higher instantly.

Whether or not he can go indefinitely into 3-A is something I'm more neutral on.

It would be instant. Copying "some AP at once" is nonsensical as that wouldn't be power mimicry. It would just be adaptation.

 

[PrinceofPein]

He has been shown to copy finite values regardless if they are unreasonably higher than what he was capable of doing before the copy. It's not NLF, the limit here would be anything on the infinity side of things.

He cannot copy any power level. He can only copy any finite, 3-Dimensional power level.

You will need a more direct statement or proof than what you have already, as the current ones are still riddled with assumptions.

"At the exact same time"?

Brother,

Big Sis

this means the hax takes the exact same time to take effect. It's not time based, it's not "the bigger the gap, the more time it takes", it's literally just "I do pose, now I got your power level".

I never said this, I just meant he has never gone against someone who could vaporize with shockwaves from their punch or finger flick

That's it. That's all that's needed. It's impossible to show Garou copying all finite values in existence, because surprise, there's are an Infinite amount of them. We're giving an ability, a lack of restriction, and we see it working with unreasonably higher values than the character is capable of. It's enough.

He performed a High 4-C feat, that does not mean his cap was High 4-C to begin with, And also the gap between him and saitama was never shown to be enough to one shot him to begin with

 

[DontTalkDT]

I agree with Agnaa. Seems like a classical NLF to me.

We once had a thread over whether hax may affect things of higher tiers than shown. The result was that such an assumption can only be justified via a mechanism based on which one can do such extrapolation.
This is such a case.

Heck, 3-A is stronger than god for all we know, so it is pretty questionable whether Garou can go there to begin with.

 

[GroundX1]

Garou stated that he has knowledge of every energy flow in the universe, replicating explosions, gamma Ray Buster and etc, in theory he couldn't replicate a Big Bang?

 

[Tdjwo]

Well, I disagree with this post. I already explained why earlier.

 

[Braking]

Disagree frack

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Garou stated that he has knowledge of every energy flow in the universe, replicating explosions, gamma Ray Buster and etc, in theory he couldn't replicate a Big Bang?

In theory, maybe but if he could, I'm pretty sure he would've done so against Saitama, which he didn't

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Exactly, this entire CRT is based solely on assumptions, no feats or statements that Garou's power mimicry can reach 3-A aside from "limitless" and the fact he eventually gets beaten by Saitama (who isn't 3-A last time I checked) pretty much seals the deal here also claiming Garou could reach Saitama's new level if he didn't get one-shot and Saitama let the fight continue onwards is yet another assumption btw.

Until I see 3-A evidence, no other arguments will convince me otherwise.

EDiT:
Anyways I can already predict how swimmingly this CRT will go as with most major CRTs for popular verses, so I'm going to bounce as to not clog the thread since @Purgy and @Maitreya are still debating each other.

Tag me when/if proof of Garou's power mimicry reaching 3-A is posted then I'll be more than happy to change my stance.

Just gonna say the point about Saitama not being 3-A is pretty ignorant and doesn’t help your case, all it shows is that you weren’t paying attention to the fight rather than you showing any signs of intelligence
The only reason garou lost to Saitama was because his accelerated development was going so fast that even when Garou spammed copying, Saitama instantly grew stronger than him. If Saitama had started out as a septillion times 3-A then Garou would have copied, and the fight would have quite literally played out the exact same as it did in the manga.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

In theory, maybe but if he could, I'm pretty sure he would've done so against Saitama, which he didn't

That would have killed Tareo and left him alone in the universe and maybe God would have wanted him to spare the moon too. If he’s replicating a Big Bang and not just the AP of it, then it would inherently have to be that, destructive which doesn’t really line up with what he was doing at the time.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

What even is the proposal of this thread in the first place?
To make a vs thread rule just for him?

Because I don't see anything regarding changes or additions to his file.

Adding a note there presumably that he can copy anything below high 3-A in vs matches

I agree with Agnaa. Seems like a classical NLF to me.

We once had a thread over whether hax may affect things of higher tiers than shown. The result was that such an assumption can only be justified via a mechanism based on which one can do such extrapolation.
This is such a case.

Heck, 3-A is stronger than god for all we know, so it is pretty questionable whether Garou can go there to begin with.

For abilities that rely on joule values (copying strength, blocking attacks, reflecting attacks), we tend to say that characters can't go beyond their best feat unless there's a canonical explanation for how it works that seems like it would go beyond that.

That's also why we don't consider "durability negation" and "invulnerability" to work on 3-A attacks unless there's a good mechanism given for the ability that would logically allow that.

I may have missed something in my quick read of the thread, but I didn't see any explanation of how Garou's power copying works that would meet that definition, so I'm against this change.

I agree that the OP’s arguments were poorly constructed but as for the real reason Garou should be able to copy 3-A is because his limiter is broken like Saitama’s. There is a scan somewhere (not in a position to get those currently, which I blame the OP for partly, but any knowledgeable member knows the panel.) in which the narrator says his limiter started to break when half monster garou is fighting darkshine. And then after that, full monster garou demonstates the ability to evolve over and over again against Saitama to the point of becoming 5-C, which likely indicates that his limiter was completely removed by that point. But more importantly, Cosmic Garou has a statement of “I’ll have to copy him limitlessly” which is important because that’s obviously a direct tie in to having a broken limiter, as if garou did have a finite upper limit, he eventually wouldn’t have been able to copy Saitama anymore, despite having done so the entire fight even at the very end he’s shown using Saitama mode.
As for the most tangible evidence, it’s gotta be the fact that Garou copied Saitama to begin with. We know that the only reason Saitama was even able to reach the strength he did, was because he broke his limiter. If Garou hadn’t broken his limiter, then it would be impossible for him to even have gotten past the sp^2 output. I’d say that Garou has pretty much 99% change of having a removed limiter at this point, and thus would be perfectly capable of copying 3-A, without having a meaningful difference from his current AP since the jump to 3-A is completely finite, so you can’t even really argue that no limit = infinitely high limit here

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Essentially I believe this is a case of nlf accusations taken too far. The purpose of nlf is that without evidence, we can’t assume limitlessness, but this is a situation in which we do have very direct evidence, so simply throwing out the fallacy isn’t going to do anything here.

 

[Agnaa]

Statements of having no limit (or having a limiter removed/broken) are not reason for us to put characters at 3-A. That sorta stuff happens all the time in fiction without series getting close to those levels of demonstrations.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Statements of having no limit (or having a limiter removed/broken) are not reason for us to put characters at 3-A. That sorta stuff happens all the time in fiction without series getting close to those levels of demonstrations.

Well just because characters have no limit doesn’t mean they actually have the means to reach 3-A during a battle. In this case, we have a character who can instantly reach the power of his opponents, as opposed to limitless verses that just haven’t reached 3-A yet. so this argument doesn’t really mean anything.

 

[Maitreya12]

Holy F what did I just wake up to

 

[Maitreya12]

He was literally unable to keep up with saitama growth after a while, if his RE is instant like you claim, that will not be the case

When did I ever state his copying ability was instant? Saitama was just growing faster than Garou could copy him, however Garou was still successfully copying Saitama’s new AP each time.

 

[Agnaa]

Well just because characters have no limit doesn’t mean they actually have the means to reach 3-A during a battle. In this case, we have a character who can instantly reach the power of his opponents, as opposed to limitless verses that just haven’t reached 3-A yet. so this argument doesn’t really mean anything.

We don't count statements of Invulnerability as working on 3-As unless there's a mechanism provided. That's not a matter of them needing the means to reach that, and those sorts of statements have the same sorts of "limitless" terminology.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Disagree FRA