GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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I agree with the Pokedex (National Dex) order in this case.
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- #42
They're not, they're simply their pre-evolved states which are considered non-adult states. It's simply not what happens in the wild. Trainers can chose when pokemon evolve, however pokemon are only able to do so in the anime which has no levels. Meanwhile, even in the anime pokemon evve as they mature in the wild, an example being a recent anime episode where there's a thwackey tribe with the babies and kids being Grookeys and the leader being a Rillaboom.
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Sure. As for profile naming, popularity is a very relevant factor when it comes to formatting, though if we're using redirects I don't think it'll matter much anyway. Pretty sure that'd be a lot of work though :/
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- #47
the constant is that final evos are more popular, however eevee and pikachu are more popular than their evos
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Popularity is for notable cases (Pikachu, Eevee as pointed out above), but the most common form is to have final evolutions as the names and they tend to be the more popular ones anyway. There are probably exceptions to this - I'd wager that Rhydon is more popular than Rhyperior for instance, but this isn't really worth splitting hairs over, especially if we could use redirects
Satanichia_Chlammy_Mafahl
She/Her- 640
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I agree with the OP.
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- #51
Could you please help me out? Could you clean up the P&A sections of Gyarados and Eevee? I edited in the magikarp for G an eeveelutions for E, but i need help.
I want you, if possible, to add the abilities of magikarp to Gyarados and I want you to clean up anything you find wrong in the P&A section of Eevee (i already cleaned it up but i want your take on it too) and i want you to add the attacks of the eeveelutions to eevee's page so it can be done. Could you do this for me? I am just very tired to day and i already nearly broke my brain after messing up a tabber twice and having to edit in 8 evolutions to eevee
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You have my sympathy for the hardship you undergo in doing all this, truly, but....
I almost never edit profiles, & I haven't checked what exactly is the standard format for Pokemon profiles recently.
Despite that, you want ME, rather than a more experienced editor, to do so?
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- #53
you are well versed with pokedexes and pokemon moves. Adding up the moves of eeveelutions to the eevee page and telling me if any of the abilities in the page bother you should be a piece of cake for you.
If you think that there would be too many moves and the list becomes too long, you can use a tabber. if you want me to explain how to use a tabber, ask.
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Well, just looking at Magikarp's P&A: Where does Resistance to Sleep Manipulation come from?
Also, Rattled's effects are listed as: "Empathic Manipulation (becomes faster while scared)"
But isn't becoming faster Statistics Amplification? So should Rattled be Statistics Amplification? & AFAIK, Rattled isn't the Pokemon inducing fear in itself when hit by a Bug, Ghost, or Dark-type move, so shouldn't it be only Statistics Amplification, or should it also still be Empathic Manipulation?
& also, there's "Speed Augmentation (in the rain)". This refers to Swift Swim, but it feels redundant & weird when also considering Rattled.
If it's alright, I may ask more questions as I go.
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- #55
yes its ok.
It should be simply part of stat amps, everything you asked about i mean.
Also if eevee has an ability listed in P&A then it shouldn't appear again in the rest of the tabber.
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looks good. Eevee is the hard part. Anyways imma go sleep. see ya. Ill answer any question in about 3-4 hours cause that's when ill be waking up for my last day of school classes
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Arguable but I guess...
I'd say (from my experience) id say pokemon whos pre evolution is "cuter" than their final evolution such as jigglypuff are more popular
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Umbreon has Sand Manipulation, presumably for Sand-Attack, but Eevee & Flareon don't. Also, if we're to omit abilities they get from Eevee, they shouldn't have it, since it's covered by "Same as Eevee, additionally" or such, unless they have other forms of Sand Manipulation.
Page has the category for Empathetic Manipulation users, but Eevee has several moves (& maybe abilities.) that fall under such.
Shouldn't Eevee have Adaptation &/or Reactive Evolution?
Eevee seems to get Copycat via Level-up, at least as of Generation 8. Power Mimicry for all of 'em.
Oh, & there's Egg Moves.
Eevee's Egg Moves include Charm, Covet, Double Kick, & Mud-Slap, some of which aren't on the profile, & thus, should probably be also listed.
Abilities for each Egg Move should also be given to Eevee's P&A, & mentions of them in the P&A of Eevee's evolutions should probably be removed as it's redundant to list them. (Except maybe when listing sources/justifications for abilities & multiple sources, including that/those move(s), are to be listed.)
& also, if we count them, type-based abilities, like Fire-type not being able to be burned, Electric-type not being able to be paralyzed, Dark-types being immune to moves given Priority by Prankster, Grass-types not being affected by Leech Seed, nor Spore & "Powder" moves, Ice-types being unable to be frozen, & whatever we consider resistance to Dragon-type moves to be.
Sorry if anyone minds this format or how messily I presented it. Lazy & inexperienced with edits. But yeah, the Eeveelution line has a lot of work to be done.
Page has the category for Empathetic Manipulation users, but Eevee has several moves (& maybe abilities.) that fall under such.
Shouldn't Eevee have Adaptation &/or Reactive Evolution?
Eevee seems to get Copycat via Level-up, at least as of Generation 8. Power Mimicry for all of 'em.
About Vaporeon:
Does that count as Organic, Biological or Matter Manipulation?
Abilities for Water Absorb & Hydration?
Vaporeon has this: "Can prevent an attack that would finish it off from finishing it off"
Where does it come from? Seems to be Endure, which is an Egg Move. Eevee gets it, thus, so do all the others, so it's questionable that it's specified on Vapreon.
Vaporeon should probably get Light Manipulation because of Aurora Beam:
Stuff that specifies colour is often considered Light Manipulation, IIRC. Vaporeon's Light Manipulation should probably specify that it's via Aurora Beam.
Plus whatever ability Muddy Water is.
Vaporeon has Precognition, which is strange, but accurate & probably redundant; Eevee gets Detect as an Egg Move, therefore all of the Eeveelutions have that.
Vapreon's Precognition should probably also be noted & explained, though:
| Yellow | Its cell structure is similar to water molecules. It will melt away and become invisible in water. |
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Abilities for Water Absorb & Hydration?
Vaporeon has this: "Can prevent an attack that would finish it off from finishing it off"
Where does it come from? Seems to be Endure, which is an Egg Move. Eevee gets it, thus, so do all the others, so it's questionable that it's specified on Vapreon.
Vaporeon should probably get Light Manipulation because of Aurora Beam:
| Sword/Shield B.Diamond/S.Pearl | The target is hit with a rainbow-colored beam. This may also lower the target’s Attack stat. |
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Plus whatever ability Muddy Water is.
Vaporeon has Precognition, which is strange, but accurate & probably redundant; Eevee gets Detect as an Egg Move, therefore all of the Eeveelutions have that.
Vapreon's Precognition should probably also be noted & explained, though:
| Gold | When VAPOREON’s fins begin to vibrate, it is a sign that rain will come within a few hours. |
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Jolteon has:
Same as Eevee, additionally Electricity Manipulation and Absorption, Rage Power, Healing, Natural Weaponry (Can fire its hair as sharp needles), Statistics Reduction, Statistics Amplification, put them to sleep, Dynamax, Resistance to Electricity Manipulation, Metal Manipulation, Air Manipulation and Sleep Manipulation
This is a weird way to phrase Sleep Manipulation, even if it DOES link it, plus, it doesn't mention Yawn, & also Yawn is an Egg Move. Its whole list probably also has some redundancies with Eevee & IDK where Rage Power comes from.
I'm assuming it comes from:
But that might just be behaviour.
Also, maybe note that its sensitive & that its mood easily changes? May be a weakness.
Does that count as anything? Air Manipulation? Matter Manipulation? Small-scale Electricity Manipulation? Energy Manipulation? What IS manipulating ions in the atmosphere?
Also, maybe specify that Jolteon's electricity tends to be 10,000 volts?
Biology or behaviour?
Maybe note this connection between Jolteon's lungs/breathing & its electricity manipulation?
Also, give Jolteon the abilities for Volt Absorb & Quick Feet?
Same as Eevee, additionally Electricity Manipulation and Absorption, Rage Power, Healing, Natural Weaponry (Can fire its hair as sharp needles), Statistics Reduction, Statistics Amplification, put them to sleep, Dynamax, Resistance to Electricity Manipulation, Metal Manipulation, Air Manipulation and Sleep Manipulation
This is a weird way to phrase Sleep Manipulation, even if it DOES link it, plus, it doesn't mention Yawn, & also Yawn is an Egg Move. Its whole list probably also has some redundancies with Eevee & IDK where Rage Power comes from.
I'm assuming it comes from:
Yellow | A sensitive POKéMON that easily becomes sad or angry. Every time its mood changes, it charges power. |
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Also, maybe note that its sensitive & that its mood easily changes? May be a weakness.
| Red Blue | It accumulates negative ions in the atmosphere to blast out 10000-volt lightning bolts. |
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Also, maybe specify that Jolteon's electricity tends to be 10,000 volts?
| Sun | They send out electrical charges of about 10,000 volts. Because they are high-strung, it can be difficult to grow close to them. |
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| Silver | Every hair on its body starts to stand sharply on end if it becomes charged with electricity. |
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| Ultra Sun | Its lungs contain an organ that creates electricity. The crackling sound of electricity can be heard when it exhales. |
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| Legends: Arceus | Bristles its fur into sharp, needlelike points when enraged. One can hear electricity crackle in its breath when it exhales. |
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Also, give Jolteon the abilities for Volt Absorb & Quick Feet?
Does Smog count as Smoke Manipulation?
Flareon learns Lava Plume, so maybe it should get Magma Manipulation?
Flareon also gets Scary Face, so that's it's own variety of Empathic Manipulation, Fear Manipulation & Statistics Reduction to specify, right?\
There may be 1 or more abilities to assign for Fire Spin, based on its trapping properties &/or vortex-like nature.
"Absorption (Can absorb outside sources of fire to boost its next move's power with its Flash Fire ability)"
Doesn't this last for more than the next move, & only boosts Fire-type moves?
Also, whatever abilities Guts is.
~~Flareon still has no moves, though.~~
| Sword/Shield B.Diamond/S.Pearl | The target is attacked with a discharge of filthy gases. This may also poison the target. |
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Flareon learns Lava Plume, so maybe it should get Magma Manipulation?
Flareon also gets Scary Face, so that's it's own variety of Empathic Manipulation, Fear Manipulation & Statistics Reduction to specify, right?\
There may be 1 or more abilities to assign for Fire Spin, based on its trapping properties &/or vortex-like nature.
"Absorption (Can absorb outside sources of fire to boost its next move's power with its Flash Fire ability)"
Doesn't this last for more than the next move, & only boosts Fire-type moves?
Also, whatever abilities Guts is.
~~Flareon still has no moves, though.~~
Espeon needs Light Manipulation because Morning Sun. Psybeam may also be a reason:
The source of Espeon's Mind Manipulation should be specified.
Whatever Psych Up & Power Swap are.
Umbreon gets its own variety of Sound Manipulation & Statistics Reduction, & maybe also Fear Manipulation via Snarl. Maybe also Rage Power or Empathic Manipulation?
Whatever Assurance is:
Abilities for Synchronize, & specify Magic Guard as source for therelated abilities in Espeon's Powers & Abilities?
| Sword/Shield B.Diamond/S.Pearl | The target is attacked with a peculiar ray. This may also leave the target confused. |
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Whatever Psych Up & Power Swap are.
Umbreon gets its own variety of Sound Manipulation & Statistics Reduction, & maybe also Fear Manipulation via Snarl. Maybe also Rage Power or Empathic Manipulation?
| Sword/Shield B.Diamond/S.Pearl | The user yells as if it’s ranting about something, which lowers the Sp. Atk stats of opposing Pokémon. |
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Whatever Assurance is:
| Sword/Shield B.Diamond/S.Pearl | If the target has already taken some damage in the same turn, this attack’s power is doubled. |
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Umbreon also needs Light Manipulation. Yes, the Dark-type needs Light Manipulation.
(Maybe also Fear Manipulation for that, too?)
& also because Confuse Ray, which is Mind Manipulation, too, & Moonlight. & whatever Guard Swap is.
Plus more Sound Manipulation & Statistics Reduction via Screech.
Also, abilities for Synchronize, & for Inner Focus.
Also, as of Generation 8, Inner Focus blocks Intimidate. Game mechanics or Resistance to Fear Manipulation?
| Silver | When darkness falls, the rings on the body begin to glow, striking fear in the hearts of anyone nearby. |
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| Shield | On the night of a full moon, or when it gets excited, the ring patterns on its body glow yellow. |
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& also because Confuse Ray, which is Mind Manipulation, too, & Moonlight. & whatever Guard Swap is.
Plus more Sound Manipulation & Statistics Reduction via Screech.
Also, abilities for Synchronize, & for Inner Focus.
Also, as of Generation 8, Inner Focus blocks Intimidate. Game mechanics or Resistance to Fear Manipulation?
"additionally Plant Manipulation with Razor Leaf and Giga Drain"
Giga Drain counts as Plant Manipulation?
I'd assume it's Organic/Biological Manipulation, MAYBE Life Manipulation?
What the heck is this on Leafeon??:
"Empathic Manipulation with Attract, Metal Manipulation with Iron Tail"
It doesn't learn those moves naturally, so unless it's accounting for TMs/TRs (Which makes the workload a lot heavier....) on the profile, too....
Leafeon needs Sound Manipulation & Sleep Manipulation because Grass Whistle.
Maybe also Empathic Manipulation, too, since it's described as a "pleasant" melody, unless it just means the song is pleasant in general rather than that the target is likely to find the sound pleasant?
Statistics Amplification because Swords Dance.
Immunity to Status Effects under intense sunlight, Dynamax
I don't think Leaf Guard makes Leafeon qualify for what we at VSBW define as "Immunity".
Does Razor Leaf qualify as Danmaku? Also, do we have any ability to assign for heightened Critical Hit chance?
As of Generation 8, Leafeon gets Leech Seed. For what its worth, IIRC, Leech Seed, in the anime is often portrayed with small, leafy vines. IDK if we consider Leech Seed Biological/Organic Manipulation like we might the drain moves, or Life Manipulation or Absorption or whatever.
Purification &/or Air Manipulation for Leafeon?
Biological/Organic/Matter/Plant Manipulation because of its cellular composition?
Fragrance Manipulation? Also, just in case, I assume it's safe to assume that it's probably just that Galarians like it, rather than Empathic Manipulation?
Abilities for Chlorophyll?
Giga Drain counts as Plant Manipulation?
| Sword/Shield B.Diamond/S.Pearl | A nutrient-draining attack. The user’s HP is restored by half the damage taken by the target. |
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What the heck is this on Leafeon??:
"Empathic Manipulation with Attract, Metal Manipulation with Iron Tail"
It doesn't learn those moves naturally, so unless it's accounting for TMs/TRs (Which makes the workload a lot heavier....) on the profile, too....
Leafeon needs Sound Manipulation & Sleep Manipulation because Grass Whistle.
| Sun/Moon Ultra Sun/Ultra Moon | The user plays a pleasant melody that lulls the target into a deep sleep. |
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Statistics Amplification because Swords Dance.
Immunity to Status Effects under intense sunlight, Dynamax
I don't think Leaf Guard makes Leafeon qualify for what we at VSBW define as "Immunity".
| Sword/Shield B.Diamond/S.Pearl | Sharp-edged leaves are launched to slash at opposing Pokémon. Critical hits land more easily. |
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As of Generation 8, Leafeon gets Leech Seed. For what its worth, IIRC, Leech Seed, in the anime is often portrayed with small, leafy vines. IDK if we consider Leech Seed Biological/Organic Manipulation like we might the drain moves, or Life Manipulation or Absorption or whatever.
| HeartGold SoulSilver | When you see LEAFEON asleep in a patch of sunshine, you’ll know it is using photosynthesis to produce clean air. |
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| X Omega Ruby | When you see Leafeon asleep in a patch of sunshine, you’ll know it is using photosynthesis to produce clean air. |
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| Sun | Its cellular composition is closer to that of a plant than an animal. It uses photosynthesis to produce its energy supply without eating food. |
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| Legends: Arceus | Cells similar to those of plants have been found in its fur. Its hard tail can fell a large tree with one stroke, and the tail’s sharpness exceeds even that of a sword crafted by a master. |
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| Moon | The younger they are, the more they smell like fresh grass. With age, their fragrance takes on the odor of fallen leaves. |
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| Sword | Galarians favor the distinctive aroma that drifts from this Pokémon’s leaves. There’s a popular perfume made using that scent. |
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Abilities for Chlorophyll?
....Not important, just something that surprises me: Vaporeon gets Aurora Beam, but not Glaceon.
"Regeneration (Mid-Low) in snowstorms and hail"
Basis for the specification of the Regeneration Level?
Also, specify that this is from Ice Body, & also, list Powers & Abilities for Snow Cloak?
"Energy Projection with Signal Beam, Water Manipulation with Water Pulse"
Glaceon only learns Signal Beam & Water Pulse via Move Tutors. Do we consider those valid basises for giving it those moves?
"Sand Manipulation with Sand Attack", "Precognition with Detect, Healing with Wish,"
Redundant, Eevee gets those.
"Aura with Take Down/Double Edge/Last Resort"
Those grant that?
Because if so, any of those that Eevee gets (IIRC, all of them.) should be put in Eevee's P&A tabber since every Eeveelution will get them.
Or is it some kind of Glaceon-exclusive aura for those abilities? No offense meant.
Air Manipulation via Icy Wind? (Unless we assume this is like, some kind of weird, temperature-modification based vaccuum creation technique to move the air by changing temperatures.)
Come to think of it, Flareon & Glaceon should probably have Temperature Manipulation? That they do so to their own bodies, IDK if that means Biological/Organic/Matter Manipulation.
Does this count as Danmaku? Also:
Also, do we have any ability or abilities we assign for "Priority Moves", like Ice Shard?
I assume this is more of a warning than any indicator of any ability/abilities, right?
IIRC, Jolteon has a similar ability via different means, but if they are anything, we should probably note them as such.
"Regeneration (Mid-Low) in snowstorms and hail"
Basis for the specification of the Regeneration Level?
Also, specify that this is from Ice Body, & also, list Powers & Abilities for Snow Cloak?
"Energy Projection with Signal Beam, Water Manipulation with Water Pulse"
Glaceon only learns Signal Beam & Water Pulse via Move Tutors. Do we consider those valid basises for giving it those moves?
"Sand Manipulation with Sand Attack", "Precognition with Detect, Healing with Wish,"
Redundant, Eevee gets those.
"Aura with Take Down/Double Edge/Last Resort"
Those grant that?
Because if so, any of those that Eevee gets (IIRC, all of them.) should be put in Eevee's P&A tabber since every Eeveelution will get them.
Or is it some kind of Glaceon-exclusive aura for those abilities? No offense meant.
| Sword/Shield B.Diamond/S.Pearl | The user attacks with a gust of chilled air. This also lowers opposing Pokémon’s Speed stats. |
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Come to think of it, Flareon & Glaceon should probably have Temperature Manipulation? That they do so to their own bodies, IDK if that means Biological/Organic/Matter Manipulation.
| Sword/Shield B.Diamond/S.Pearl | The user flash-freezes chunks of ice and hurls them at the target. This move always goes first. |
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| Ultra Moon | It can instantaneously freeze any moisture that’s around it, creating ice pellets to shoot at its prey. |
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Also, do we have any ability or abilities we assign for "Priority Moves", like Ice Shard?
| Sword | Any who become captivated by the beauty of the snowfall that Glaceon creates will be frozen before they know it. |
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| Brilliant Diamond Shining Pearl | As a defense mechanism, it can completely freeze its fur to make its hairs stand out like needles. |
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IIRC, Jolteon has a similar ability via different means, but if they are anything, we should probably note them as such.
Sylveon has "Sand Manipulation with Sand Attack, Homing Attack and Danmaku with Swift", which are redundant.
"Empathic Manipulation with Attract and Disarming Voice"
AFAIK, Sylveon cannot learn Attract naturally. It is a TM/TR move, IIRC.
Sylveon's Pokedex entries give it additional basis for Empathic Manipulation (Maybe Mind Manipulation, but probably not? Also, Aura, maybe??):
Also:
Whatever we call this. The superpower is called "Empathy", but do we call reading someone else's emotions supernaturally as Mind Manipulation? Empathic Manipulation?
"Light Manipulation with Dazzling Gleam", "Forcefield Creation with Light Screen"
These are accurate, but incompletely so; Light Screen -& possibly other moves- are Light Manipulation, too.
"Power Mimicry (Can swap passive abilities with Skill Swap)"
DOES it only swap what are considered to be Passive Abilities? Can it swap active abilities?
"Can change the terrain with Misty Terrain"
More detail on the terrain's effects should be given, right? Also, relevant abilities for the move, too? Like Air or Mist or Smoke Manipulation or whatever it qualifies for?
So whatever abilities that is.
Also, whatever abilities Cute Charm & Pixilate are?
"Empathic Manipulation with Attract and Disarming Voice"
AFAIK, Sylveon cannot learn Attract naturally. It is a TM/TR move, IIRC.
Sylveon's Pokedex entries give it additional basis for Empathic Manipulation (Maybe Mind Manipulation, but probably not? Also, Aura, maybe??):
| X Omega Ruby | It sends a soothing aura from its ribbonlike feelers to calm fights. |
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| Sun | Its ribbonlike feelers give off an aura that weakens hostility in its prey, causing them to let down their guard. Then it attacks. |
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| Sword | By releasing enmity-erasing waves from its ribbonlike feelers, Sylveon stops any conflict. |
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| Legends: Arceus | It emits a soothing aura from its ribbon-shaped organs. It wraps these appendages around quarrelers to instantly restore calm to the situation. |
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Also:
| Ultra Moon | Sylveon wraps its ribbonlike feelers around its Trainer’s arm because this touch enables it to read its Trainer’s feelings. |
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"Light Manipulation with Dazzling Gleam", "Forcefield Creation with Light Screen"
These are accurate, but incompletely so; Light Screen -& possibly other moves- are Light Manipulation, too.
"Power Mimicry (Can swap passive abilities with Skill Swap)"
DOES it only swap what are considered to be Passive Abilities? Can it swap active abilities?
"Can change the terrain with Misty Terrain"
More detail on the terrain's effects should be given, right? Also, relevant abilities for the move, too? Like Air or Mist or Smoke Manipulation or whatever it qualifies for?
| Sword/Shield B.Diamond/S.Pearl | This protects Pokémon on the ground from status conditions and halves damage from Dragon-type moves for five turns. |
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Also, whatever abilities Cute Charm & Pixilate are?
Oh, & there's Egg Moves.
Eevee's Egg Moves include Charm, Covet, Double Kick, & Mud-Slap, some of which aren't on the profile, & thus, should probably be also listed.
Abilities for each Egg Move should also be given to Eevee's P&A, & mentions of them in the P&A of Eevee's evolutions should probably be removed as it's redundant to list them. (Except maybe when listing sources/justifications for abilities & multiple sources, including that/those move(s), are to be listed.)
& also, if we count them, type-based abilities, like Fire-type not being able to be burned, Electric-type not being able to be paralyzed, Dark-types being immune to moves given Priority by Prankster, Grass-types not being affected by Leech Seed, nor Spore & "Powder" moves, Ice-types being unable to be frozen, & whatever we consider resistance to Dragon-type moves to be.
Sorry if anyone minds this format or how messily I presented it. Lazy & inexperienced with edits. But yeah, the Eeveelution line has a lot of work to be done.
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- #60
you can freely add anything from here since it makes sense to me. If you don't add sth then mention it to me so i will add it.
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Well, there was some stuff I'm uncertain about it, plus, I'm hesitant to edit because I'm lazy & inexperienced.
If anyone more confident/experienced in their editing is willing to put in some or all of it, please feel free to do so.
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Agree as well
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All seem fine, Adaptation rather than reactive evolution. Anything that Eevee has can be moved into its tabber. Only exceptions are abilities that work notably differently (i.e. Umbreon has more enhanced Darkness Manipulation than Eevee, Espeon has passive precognition rather than just Detect). Any other missing abilities you've noted should be fine to add.
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Okay I’m sorry I’m late and thanks to Arceus for linking me the thread when asked but effing heck do I disagree. For many MANY reasons.
Reason one, and the biggest. They’re totally different Pokémon. Even regional variants shouldn’t be the same profile. They evolved into two totally different beings, and you wouldn’t combine them the same way you wouldn’t combine humans and apes because common ancestor.
Reason two, saving space. Using Eevee as an example. Yeah, instead of having eight separate profiles let’s coalesce eight different beings with incredibly different powers and stats and strategies into one. That’ll totally make the profiles feel less cramped. Everyone would totally rather have extra profiles instead of what you’re suggesting. Heck, it’s why characters who outright are the same people have multiple profiles, like Goku, Naruto, Luffy, and Ichigo. And I think Deku and Natsu now.
Finally what if they fight each other? What if someone does, idk, Scizor vs Kleavor. Do we put it on Scyther’s profile that it lost to…itself? And also beat itself?
Magikarp and Gyarados are separate for vs purposes. Due to how vastly different they are, with one being canonically pathetic and the other being one of the most feared non-Legendary mons, listing the two of them together would be incredibly odd, especially if listing matches, and most likely losses in Magikarp’s case. It’s less important for the other mons (besides Milotic) because the difference isn’t nearly as big or important to their existence.
Reason one, and the biggest. They’re totally different Pokémon. Even regional variants shouldn’t be the same profile. They evolved into two totally different beings, and you wouldn’t combine them the same way you wouldn’t combine humans and apes because common ancestor.
Reason two, saving space. Using Eevee as an example. Yeah, instead of having eight separate profiles let’s coalesce eight different beings with incredibly different powers and stats and strategies into one. That’ll totally make the profiles feel less cramped. Everyone would totally rather have extra profiles instead of what you’re suggesting. Heck, it’s why characters who outright are the same people have multiple profiles, like Goku, Naruto, Luffy, and Ichigo. And I think Deku and Natsu now.
Finally what if they fight each other? What if someone does, idk, Scizor vs Kleavor. Do we put it on Scyther’s profile that it lost to…itself? And also beat itself?
Magikarp and Gyarados are separate for vs purposes. Due to how vastly different they are, with one being canonically pathetic and the other being one of the most feared non-Legendary mons, listing the two of them together would be incredibly odd, especially if listing matches, and most likely losses in Magikarp’s case. It’s less important for the other mons (besides Milotic) because the difference isn’t nearly as big or important to their existence.
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i like how you completely ignored my points i made in the profile deletion thread.
Nothing about them is like apes and humans. Humans and apes are different because
1. Humans are born humans, not apes, as they have been evolving for so long that they quite literally are the exact opposite genetically
2. Humans can't breed with apes FRA
Meanwhile a Gallade could spend a night with a Kirlia and a Ralts will pop out. Now ain't that neat. So that argument is out of the question.
They also aren't fundamentally
1. the votes on the thread and the amount of people who were okay with eeveelutions being fused suggests otherwise, not that many people care whether we have them fused.
2. pre-time skip and post-time skip profiles don't exist because of super different abilities but rather because the characters you mentioned usually have arcs of development and like a dozen tiers on one page and to not have a dozen tiers on one page they need to separate them. This isn't the case here.
To prove my point further, Saitama's profile has his 9-B key and his 8-B to High 6-A key and also his 5-B key in the same profile despite each tier existing years apart from each other and having completely different abilities and skills.
so overall, irrelevant. Otherwise all their stats are the exact same with a few different abilities thrown in there.
If your arguments before at least had some basis, this argument is just plain corrupt man. Nobody complains about saitama having a punching bag 9-B key.
Ghyrados evolves from Magikarp, whether you like it or not it either goes the same way as all the other profiles with their pre-evolutions or they don't exist at all.
Also when was the last time Magikarp was used? Ah yes, Feebas vs. Magikarp. The other time is...actually like never. Only super popular pokemon get matches and on extremely rare occasions.
Lou_change
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They are species also that increases our total number of Pokémon profiles weirdly it because unless we decide one gets priority over another we also would have to make a base form page or add the base form to the every page and that could lead to people questioning other standards like should we separate regional forms into different profiles meowth has like 7 keys for example or should we keep putting all parts of a line that doesn’t split on the same page it would probably be easier to make a separate Beldum profile because updating Metagross would require a CRT.
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I made this simultaneously. I didn’t have your points at hand then.
And yet a Nidoqueen can’t breed with a Nidoking, and those are the closest ones in terms of actuality. And breeding ain’t a good argument. Gardevoir can breed with a ******* Muk, Magcargo, and Gastly.
No offense to them at all but other than Gyro I don’t really…have a good reason to trust that they know how to handle profiles on this site.
Tiers, abilities, it’s going to be the same result. It’s going to be a massive profile. Especially once you get to listing moves and abilities.
Saitama 100% shouldn’t have a 9-B tier on his page given that exists for like a flashback and is wholly irrelevant to the entirety of his story. Two wrongs don’t make a right. That key is added just to have more keys and I’ve always thought that.
A few? Dude, Espeon and Umbreon are literally night and day. Poliwrath and Politoed are nothing alike. Neither are Huntail and Gorebyss. Hell, speaking of night and day, by your logic Solgaleo and Lunala should be one profile since they both come from Cosmog.
That much I’ll give you. That profile should be combined. Personally I’d just not give Magikarp a profile but that’s not an option.
To summarize, We’re not making profiles for Ralts. Nobody cares about Ralts. We’ve made profiles for Gardevoir and Gallade, the species that people care about. Ralts can turn into either. Either can’t turn into Ralts. This is the case for literally all of these examples, except for Eevee, who has the most issues with fusing, and maybe Slowpoke. The only way this would be the standard is if every Pokémon was listed by their first forms, which y’all have established earlier to not be what we’re doing (which I entirely agree, as again, only a minority care about the first forms in a versus perspective). If it was the same mon using different split forms, like Calyrex, I’d be on your side. But this is nothing like Calyrex. At best you can get me to allow Urshifu to be on one profile, but even that’s pretty much a split evolution under the same name.
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GodlyCharmander
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That's sus af
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doesn't disprove my point about there being no ape -> human thing
while I know that you're experienced me and others don't have a good reason to trust your judgement at this point either, especially considering you've expressed some opinions regarding pokemon profile making that contradict currently accepted ones (accepted for a while at this point).
i mean ok cool, night, day, dusk, evening whatever, are we making profiles for each of Lycanroc's versions now?
never mentioned them but tbh out of all the pokemon mentioned here they're literally the closest to each other.
tbh i'll give you that one, at that point their design is just absolutely different, unlike the aforementioned pokemon.
the only reason i won't do that is because that is something fans are generally against it and we aren't putting kyurem reshiram and zekrom into one profile either.
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i will say i will stand by my point of not splitting applin's and ralt's evolutions. I will stand my ground.
I can come to a compromise. It's painful for me since i put loads of effort into making the Eevee look great but i am willing to agree to the remaking of eeveelutions.
In the case that you let me keep the fused profiles for similar evolutions though (ralts line ect.)
I can come to a compromise. It's painful for me since i put loads of effort into making the Eevee look great but i am willing to agree to the remaking of eeveelutions.
In the case that you let me keep the fused profiles for similar evolutions though (ralts line ect.)
GodlyCharmander
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Design isn't a factor; Kaidou can turn into a Dragon that is completely different from his human form.
Appearance isn't a factor; FRA.
The fact that X can become Y is enough for it to be on the same profile. That's simply it. It also helps to not have an ungodly amount of profiles, it's more practical this way.
Thus, Cal's nitpicking isn't worth been listened to. His proposition does nothing but difficult our work with each future revisions, which I know for a fact he's not going to help with. Both options are sound, but one of them makes our lives much easier. Why in the hell would we choose to separate their profiles when that's far harder for us to manage?
Pokémons of the same evolution line should be in the same profile, because it's easier for us in general, and it makes sense. (Some Pokémon can even devolve into their base forms in the Manga too).
We are going to fuse profiles.
Appearance isn't a factor; FRA.
The fact that X can become Y is enough for it to be on the same profile. That's simply it. It also helps to not have an ungodly amount of profiles, it's more practical this way.
Thus, Cal's nitpicking isn't worth been listened to. His proposition does nothing but difficult our work with each future revisions, which I know for a fact he's not going to help with. Both options are sound, but one of them makes our lives much easier. Why in the hell would we choose to separate their profiles when that's far harder for us to manage?
Pokémons of the same evolution line should be in the same profile, because it's easier for us in general, and it makes sense. (Some Pokémon can even devolve into their base forms in the Manga too).
We are going to fuse profiles.
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Orrr that i guess.
Eh I'll just give it a thought tommorow I'm too sleepy for this.
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Bad argument. I never argued appearance. I argued that they’re functionally separate beings.
Yoshi can turn into Mario. Clearly they should be the same profile. And no. The thing is that C can become Y and X can become Z, but Y cannot become Z. Therefore Y and Z should be separate.
No the hell they can’t. That was a single Eevee that got experimented to to help and back. And even then it evolved permanently. Also Clefairy that one time but that was a gag manga.
Also, no. Our viewing audience matters more than our ease of comfort, and it always has and always will be. It being easier on us does not make it the best option, especially when profiles will get cluttered to hell and back, to the point of taking ages to load in Eevee’s case if this goes through.
GodlyCharmander
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They're not. Evolved Pokémon are nothing more than matured versions of their pre-evolutions.
You're taking the term "evolution" to a too literal interpretation.
In the episode The Gates of Warp!, due to the battle with Dialga and Palkia, messing with the time, all characters' ages are being messed with, and Pokémon return into their pre-evolution forms, and even become eggs.
"Conversely, when Pokémon do evolve, this can often be linked with an experience that causes them to mature emotionally or deal with an emotional issue, such as when the Poochyena in A Bite to Remember evolved, or the Paras in The Problem With Paras. Poochyena, for some reason, had an aversion to using the move Bite, while Paras was extremely timid and weak in battle. Both of them evolved shortly after overcoming these issues. In Enter Pikachu!, it was revealed that Ash's Pikachu evolved from a Pichu in the wild during a silent, tearful parting with a pack of Kangaskhan that had acted as his surrogate family"
"Hm! Everyone's here finally. <player>, everyone, listen. You may forgotten it already, but I study the evolution of Pokémon. But the more I study, the more mysteries appear and multiply. Pokémon that evolve, and those that don't... What makes them different from each other? Do those that are immature as living beings evolve to once more mature? If so, what do we make of the legendary Pokémon that don't evolve? Are we to assume that the legendary Pokémon are complete as creatures? This is where you three come in. In the tree lakes of Sinnoh, there are said to be mirage Pokémon. If we can obtain data on them, it may shed some light on how the process of Pokémon evolution works. I need help from each one of you on this grand undertaking. Help me find these Pokémon that are considered to be mirages" - Professor Rowan, PKM DP
"Hm! you look well. It's commonly accepted that Pokémon evolve to grow more powerful. There must be other reason than that. I would like to know during my lifetime." - Professor Rowan, PKM DP.
Evolution is a natural process for Pokémon. The existence of Baby Pokémon should be more than enough evidence for that.
That's a terrible argument. Yoshi turning into Mario isn't a natural progression of its biology, it's through an equipment which allows it to mimic Mario's physical attributes and skills.
A Pichu turning into a Pikachu is just it becoming stronger and older through natural biology.
X can become Y, thus it should be in the same profile. What you presented to me was a non-sequitur argument unrelated to what I've tried to communicate, and I am pretty sure you did it on purpose.
"That was a gag manga". No, it being a comical manga doesn't discredit it from being a canonical event. Pokémon Pocket Monsters is canon, just like any other manga, and there, devolution is just as easy as evolution.
Also, devolution happens in the P.M.D games more often than not.
Their viewing is not harmed through this option. The eevee page doesn't take too long to load unless you're in a potato phone, which is not our problem.
It's also practical for their viewing, since all eeveelutions are in the same profile. But of course you're only going to address the points that are convenient for your narrative with your level of argumentation.
Obviously, this whole thing was already accepted, so I will not be wasting any more time with you unless you manage to actually convince everyone here.
GodlyCharmander
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Also that's a terrible argument because Mario's P&A is acknowledged in Yoshi's profile in through the inclusion of "Power Mimicry", so your point is just moot.
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But Mario’s profile isn’t inside Yoshi’s now, is it?
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Yes. When they’re not split evolutions. But yes, tell me how a limbless ball of ice and a frozen ghost maiden are somehow the same being.
And again, we’re not making profiles for the pre-evos. We’re making profiles for the final evos and putting the pre-evos profiles inside them for fairness sakes. I’ve said it multiple times, nobody gives a shit about Ralts. They only care about Gardevoir and Gallade. Kirlia may be a superior Ralts, and Gardevoir and Gallade may both be a superior Kirlia, but Gardevoir and Gallade are just different beings altogether. So are the Hitmons, the Polis, Huntail and Gorebyss, the Apples, etc.
None of this proves or disproves your point as I never argued that evolution isn’t natural. That’s common knowledge. That said not all baby Pokémon are just existent. A decent portion requires incenses to be born as babies instead of their normal forms, like Munchlax, Budew, Azurril, and Wynaut.
I’m aware it’s a bad argument. I’m mentioning it because it shows the flaws in yours.
Also Pikachu isn’t a split evolution. Pikachu’s evolution forms should be on the same page. This is not what I’m arguing.
Except this blatantly relates to what I was arguing? How on earth is it a non-sequitur? X can become Y, X can become Z. Y can’t become Z. Therefore Y and Z shouldn’t be grouped in the same profile.
Gag things get ignored all the time. Goku breathes in space in early Dragon Ball when he took Monster Carrot to the moon. Also that manga is very not canon. Heck it’s a tv show in the anime.
De-evolution being as easy as evolution is an outright lie. Every instance, and I do mean every instance, is via an outside source that they have no control over. Dialga’s time manipulation, magical orbs, magic scarves, or being unique instances.
I’ve addressed every point here for one. And for two, no, it is objectively cluttered to have eight individuals with different everything except for a common base to be grouped together. Our profiles have iffy formats as it is. Adding members who are nothing alike
I don’t need to convince everyone in here. We know how this (admittedly flawed) process works. Gyro is the only staff that supported this, and a former staff member, myself, has opposed this. Now, granted, I know that Armor supports this as well, but he’s not here.
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I am of the opinion that Pokemon will not have too many keys for any profiles if evolutionary lines.
& while regional variants are different species with different evolutionary history, they are often treated as similar, being compared to one another in lore. Not to mention the similarities in appearance. & if you don't dismiss them as game mechanics all THOSE other similarities.
Making readers have to go to multiple profiles for different parts of 1 evolutionary line because they're different forms, seems petty. Sure, evolutions will differ visually, & in capabilities, but they almost ALWAYS share a type, with little exception, & will have commonalities in movepools, often their abilities, etc., & have undeniable connections.
& stuff like refusing to merge Gyarados's profile with Magikarp's because 1 is weaker than the other is not something I can support.
Characters with vast differences in capabilities, appearance, temperament, reputation, etc. between keys or forms is not unheard of. & even beside that, speculated likelihoods about Versus Thread win rates shouldn't influence how we create profiles.
Also, personal note, I HATE -WITH EVERY FIBER OF MY BEING- everyone who says no one cares about the pre-evolutions. Even if it is statistically accurate, I dislike on principal, neglecting parts of an evolutionary line for being not the strongest. Maybe you don't care about it, but others may, & if they have the initiative to incorporate those stages, then you shouldn't let your callous disregard prevent that. Obviously, pre-evolutions should be keys.
Stuff like this is why I dislike favoring which is most powerful.
Split Evolutions are still part of an evolutionary line, even if that evolutionary family has divergent paths.
& IIRC, our Wiki does value reducing workloads. If presentability is the concern, then what of the argument that not having to maintain as many separate profiles makes it easier to keep them looking up to the standards of presentability?
& while regional variants are different species with different evolutionary history, they are often treated as similar, being compared to one another in lore. Not to mention the similarities in appearance. & if you don't dismiss them as game mechanics all THOSE other similarities.
Making readers have to go to multiple profiles for different parts of 1 evolutionary line because they're different forms, seems petty. Sure, evolutions will differ visually, & in capabilities, but they almost ALWAYS share a type, with little exception, & will have commonalities in movepools, often their abilities, etc., & have undeniable connections.
& stuff like refusing to merge Gyarados's profile with Magikarp's because 1 is weaker than the other is not something I can support.
Characters with vast differences in capabilities, appearance, temperament, reputation, etc. between keys or forms is not unheard of. & even beside that, speculated likelihoods about Versus Thread win rates shouldn't influence how we create profiles.
Also, personal note, I HATE -WITH EVERY FIBER OF MY BEING- everyone who says no one cares about the pre-evolutions. Even if it is statistically accurate, I dislike on principal, neglecting parts of an evolutionary line for being not the strongest. Maybe you don't care about it, but others may, & if they have the initiative to incorporate those stages, then you shouldn't let your callous disregard prevent that. Obviously, pre-evolutions should be keys.
In a technical sense, the same being at different stages of life, albeit, 1 which has a less common experience (Exposure to a Dusk Stone.) that is still common enough for a significant portion of Snorunt to become Froslass to result in Froslass being a species rather than an anomaly.
In my opinion, if Y & Z both share a common first form, then they should be grouped together. IIRC, there's precedent for other profiles showing lower forms first, meaning a base form has significance.
Stuff like this is why I dislike favoring which is most powerful.
Split Evolutions are still part of an evolutionary line, even if that evolutionary family has divergent paths.
I disagree that listing split evolutions is complicated. Profiles having multiple "highest" forms of similar capacity is not unheard of.
& IIRC, our Wiki does value reducing workloads. If presentability is the concern, then what of the argument that not having to maintain as many separate profiles makes it easier to keep them looking up to the standards of presentability?
Source on this assertion of @Armorchompy 's stance?
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He liked every single of my comments when i clashed about this with Cal on the profile deletion thread
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