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Freezing Calcs, and Why they Make No Sense
- Thread starter Dargoo_Faust
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This is not only about calcs though. It is also about tanking freezing attacks.Antvasima said:
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I don't think anyone, including myself, has argued for that in this entire thread.Antvasima said:
I'm pointing out that A) Our current definition of durability doesn't support resisting temperature changes, and B) We should re-evaluate how we treat temperature change feats for scaling and tiering, but I've said numerous times the feats should still be accounted for.
Agnaa
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"Accounted for" is a misleading way to sidestep what Ant's saying imo.Dargoo Faust said:
You don't want freezing feats being AP.
This means that freezing calculations will no longer apply to AP, even if you still want freezing calculations put in the powers and abilities section.
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How is it misleading? I'm making it abundantly clear the calcs will still exist, be applied, and considered, but just differently than how we did it before.Agnaa said:
Once again you conflate my two points, despite me laying them out clearly on the very comment you're responding to.Agnaa said:
- Our current definition of AP/Dura does not support freezing, and for the latter, heating up.
- How we treat heat feats regardless of this should be changed to reflect how they act IRL, which is how we derive values for the feats to begin with.
I even conceded that listing the heat feats on AP/Dura but separately (See: Enji Todoroki for an example of this) would be the ideal way to implement this.
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No worries, honestly the OP on this post wasn't as clear-cut as it needed to be, which is why I think it might be best to close this thread with a redirect to Earl's.
Agnaa
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@Ant
Firephoenixearl said:
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Anyway, since this thread seems to have more staff members involved, and Earl's thread has been going on for a while, I am not sure if continuing our discussion there would be a good idea.
Perhaps, somebody could start a new thread with a fair summary of the previous discussion and arguments in the beginning, and then we could close both of the preceding threads with a link to the new one?
Perhaps, somebody could start a new thread with a fair summary of the previous discussion and arguments in the beginning, and then we could close both of the preceding threads with a link to the new one?
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Well that seems like unnecessary work tbf. And besides, even if we start a new thread you'd still have less staff members than in both mine and this.
Dargoo wanted to continue it there because he finds the OP a bit more clear on what he's trying to say and there is also the fact that my thread has had a general agreement regarding this very point so continuing the discussion would be easier.
But that's just my opinion, i just find making another thread rather redundant.
Dargoo wanted to continue it there because he finds the OP a bit more clear on what he's trying to say and there is also the fact that my thread has had a general agreement regarding this very point so continuing the discussion would be easier.
But that's just my opinion, i just find making another thread rather redundant.
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Well, if we link to it in both of the old threads, all of the previous participants can continue there if they wish, the discussion would become more streamlined, and it would be easier to get new participants who do not have to wade through hundreds of posts.
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I guess i can settle for that. Imma wait to hear whether dargoo agrees too.
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Sorry for being late to this thread but what were the conclusions here?
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Doesn't look like we reached the in depth details of the conclusion, we're just waiting for someone who knows how to explain it better why freezing/cooling feats are still equal to heating feats.
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I'll ask Agnaa and Earl to help me make a new thread, maybe request that DDM and DT are informed of the discussion and have the oppertunity to type up their own portion of it.
Or maybe juse continue it on Earl's thread? Kind of just depends.
Or maybe juse continue it on Earl's thread? Kind of just depends.
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I can make the new thread tomorrow if no one else is up for the task. I'll try to include the conclusions (even though my thread seems to have been resolved, it is still basically the same theme just heat instead of cold).
@Dargo
We could continue it on my thread but i do agree with Ant on this:
Well, if we link to it in both of the old threads, all of the previous participants can continue there if they wish, the discussion would become more streamlined, and it would be easier to get new participants who do not have to wade through hundreds of posts.
Even some people who have been here seem to be lost as to what the current discussion is about. So i do agree that a new thread with a more detailed OP as to what has been and what hasn't been resolved would be a good idea. As long as people are willing to participate.
@Dargo
We could continue it on my thread but i do agree with Ant on this:
Well, if we link to it in both of the old threads, all of the previous participants can continue there if they wish, the discussion would become more streamlined, and it would be easier to get new participants who do not have to wade through hundreds of posts.
Even some people who have been here seem to be lost as to what the current discussion is about. So i do agree that a new thread with a more detailed OP as to what has been and what hasn't been resolved would be a good idea. As long as people are willing to participate.
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@Ugarik, Freezing calculations are definitely applicable. That's the point, is that freezing and heating feats are treated equally. Removing thermal energy is still manipulating energy in a sense and could still equate to heating surrounding objects at the same time. Some people are just wondering why removing energy still equates to inserting energy into a specific target among other things.
We just need help giving an in depth explanation for why freezing are the same as heating feats. There are other side issues that surviving a blizzard may not require the exact amount of durability required equating to causing a blizzard; similar to how surviving heat can still be durability. Like surviving inside the center of the sun isn't quite Star level, but for different reasons.
But other than that, we're basically looking for someone who's good at explaining in detail why change in temperature is still an Attack Potency feat and why lowering temperature is the same as raising temperature.
We just need help giving an in depth explanation for why freezing are the same as heating feats. There are other side issues that surviving a blizzard may not require the exact amount of durability required equating to causing a blizzard; similar to how surviving heat can still be durability. Like surviving inside the center of the sun isn't quite Star level, but for different reasons.
But other than that, we're basically looking for someone who's good at explaining in detail why change in temperature is still an Attack Potency feat and why lowering temperature is the same as raising temperature.
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DontTalk normally is yes, but his workload is currently to heavy ATM due to other more important projects taking center stage such as the Tiering System revisions thread.
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Honestly I think that heat feats are mostly fine (but there are some caveats, the relationship between ability to resist heat and resist impact isn't linear). However, cooling feats do not require the character to actually produce a high amount of energy. Sure, it could be argued that they are harnessing a large amount of energy, but there is usually nothing that suggests that they are actually capable of recreating that energy (to scale to other stats) or even using it in an offensive way at all.
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