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Heat vs AP

Firephoenixearl

Firephoenixearl

20,509
1,590
I believe we have a serious problem with the way we treat heat here in the wiki. The problem lies in the fact that we always treat it as AP (i am talking mainly about resistance/durability here), when it is clearly not, at least in fiction.

Heat is energy, energy is AP. So us treating it as AP is physically correct, but most fiction do not care about this. Heat is treated differently from a punch or a kick, or an explosion (shockwave) or anything else, because it is temperature. Unlike any of the things i mentioned above, heat is energy but does not apply in the same method due to lacking "force". Everything here has energy, but they all can produce force if it hits someone (taking their acceleration from 0 to a certain number), however heat is different, i can go stand in the core of the sun and my acceleration wouldn't budge because it is not vectorial.

So in most cases than not, the heat would just melt something but not cause it destruction. As such it is very common in fiction for character to be immensly durable but lose to very little heat. Examples would be Broly (Toei) dying due to hitting the surface of the sun. Son Goku (Dragon Ball Super) saying "i do not think i will be able to survive dipping my body in magma". Many characters from other verses such as Rakudai losing to 3k degrees of heat, Shigekuni Yamamoto Genryusai's heat being so great despite everyone in that verse being to a level where that much heat wouldn't do anything. But as i said physically it does make sense to treat it as AP, does it really though?

Does Goku's body have a higher melting point? Does a dude with a 5-B metal armor really have more than "metal" in his armor? What about biologically? The enzymes stop working after 42 degrees of heat which is why if your inner temperature rises above 42 degrees of heat you could end up with very very serious injuries or if it continues death. Why would we assume that a character is biologically different just because of his AP.

So back to the point. while it would make sense logcailly due to it being just energy, due to the nature fiction depicts it the physics in this case and the biological differences. Is it really just ok to go with "heat is AP and durability is enough to resist it" rather than "Extreme heat would need resistance to extreme heat to resist". Especially when we have cases like as i said extreme heat damaging far higher durability.
 
They treat it more like 'omg this heat is unbelievable! Such-such power!'. The best solution is to just scale it whoever was affected, depending on the circumstances. For example magical flames powered by magic would be from their own power and would scale to whoever is affected unless the punch dude being affected blitzes or stomps them if they get close enough, meaning they were just lighting a torch under his foot. If not then the verse is treating it as comparable in supernatural energy as the punch dude, it's just that they took different roads to power.

Anyways RIP firebenders...
 
I did something like this back in the time, yeah.

I think if the verse shows heat hurting unrelated To AP, it should apply. That's me tough.
 
Temperature in anime doesn't abide by normal logic. "Such power" yeah they also say "such power" about stuff like matter manip, reality warping or other things like that. Such power just means magic power in most cases not energy. If most people can just make a fireball then there is a dude who can just create fire ball the size of the sun ofc they would say "such unbelievable power" cus he did something way out of the ordinary, but the temperature there would be the same. 3k degrees vs 3k degress.

@Risci

I feel like they should be assumed to be divided "unless" the verse depicts the 2 as related. Because most verses have a "heat is not AP" kind of standards. So the standard should be made on the majority, and given that it is fiction it would have to show that it actually knows about how energy works.
 
DB Super Goku was completely fine after dipping into lava tho. Even canon Goku was unharmed by lava during his fight with Frieza. Just sayin'.

Not like it matters, DT calc'd it to be super low-end 9-B at best.
 
The heat its energy its true, but the issue its that people believe that energy = damage, when isn't necessary true; energy its change, so having high energy do not guarantee to cause high damage, so increasing the environmental temperature by +5 in 5 km radius could requiere more energy (change) that increasing it by +50 in 10 m radius, but the last one will cause far more damage.
 
Im gonna link this for now and wait for more input but im pretty sure this has been brought up before and its generally considered similar to guns harming high teir characters, or swords peircing the defense of a far to durable character. Ie PIS In the end if enough people are for a change Im fine with it but for the moment I don't really see this as neccesarry...
 
Do we need to have this debate now? Between Lifting Strength, Calc Stacking, Tiering and in principle the lightning revision (Not to mention the future forum move) there's way too much going on currently.

Like, if you want to have this without me I guess you can. But as this is a massive revision...
 
I disagree. It would lead to a massive mess of sorts and nothing might end up getting fixed. These things are to be done one at a time. The people who work at the wiki have lives to live too, ya know.
 
I don't think everything has to be done immediately or at the same time. What should be done is that a or a few members of the staff should take note of everything that needs to be revised in a note book so that nothing gets forgotten or left behind, and check then off once they have been concluded bit by bit
 
Yeah, we already got far too much on our hands, but I'll point out some things. Yes, heat is still energy, so a character using their own energy to generate massive amounts of heat would still be AP. But energy =/= equal damage since some attacks scatter while others have much more precision. We're well aware that heat and force are two widely different things and that there are multiple categories for durability; but we can't exactly over complicate the system.

Yes, we will keep some things in mind when it comes to fragmentation, pulverizing, melting, vaporizing inanimate objects and large vehicles and stuff like that. We're also aware that some verses do tend to have more interchangeable powers and abilities than others. And we're also well aware that both Outliers and PIS exist, so there's already multiple case by case scenarios in which we scale character stats based on heat feats.

But we still have far too much on hands to properly clarify every detail.
 
I do agree that a lot is happening right now that's why I just made this as a discussion. I just wanted to get opinions rather than add it right away.

@Dark @Dmua

That will be hard depending on the verse you'll have people argue the best option in that case leading to possible wank that's why I'd say have it as a standard instead. Example all verses are to be assumed heat is not damage unless it proves otherwise. But at the end of the day calcs are calcs im not arguing them. Im arguing resistance. In most cases it would be better to have resistance to heat as different from durability as personally from all the cases I've seen I haven't encountered a case where they would be the same as it would be aching to every character in that verse having some decent degree of heat resistance via dura alone.
 
Again, it depends. Heating large sized objects is still damage, or a super-heated cutting laser with great precision aimed at a single target is still damage. But a small target surviving lava being spilled out of a volcano is nothing too crazy. But if all that heat is being generated from a single character's own energy, then it's also still the character's own Attack Potency. And it could also scale to durability via Newton's Third Law depending on context; if their own durability is the exact same energy source.
 
You're copying Dargoo, I see.

I've given my piece on these talks, I believe. First of all, allow me to say that yes, heat can melt a dude with higher AP. If their physiology is different we can make no assumptions on exactly what the physical properties they have are so if fiction shows them wading through lava, cool for them, if not, get rekt I guess.

Second of all, heat is AP. Durability does not neccesarily account for that AP being spread over you. So, for example, a guy who makes attacks from both heat and telekinesis could do a High 6-C feat with heat, and telekinetically box it out with a High 6-C guy, but if he uses flames, the other guy would have to just... not be burned, because at a certain point you're going to melt and vaporize just due to chemical processes.
 
Huh. I was expecting when you said this was a "reverse" of my thread that you'd be arguing the opposite points I made, but I'm very happy to see this is just debunking the opposite of freezing, heating up/melting.

I obviously give this two thumbs up, three if I could stitch another arm to my body.

Mr. Bambu said:
I've given my piece on these talks, I believe. First of all, allow me to say that yes, heat can melt a dude with higher AP.</ref>
Click to expand...
You're kind of just proving Earl's and myself's point right here? Heat has no correlation with someone's resistance to blunt physical trauma, yet we list them under the same category.
 
It is technically possible for massive heat waves to generate some degree of force. And also, yes some characters can have more resistance to heat then they can to force, but it depends on context. When it comes to planet level characters or various Ki and Magic users, they all tend to be interchangeable though.

I will say that the durability of various inanimate objects such as various vehicles should be taken at face value. It's normal for cars to resist enough heat capacity up to 8-C levels but get easily flattened by Wall level punches for instance.
 
I mean, melting a car and destroying one with physical force are already accepted as separate feats so eh.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
It is technically possible for massive heat waves to generate some degree of force.
Click to expand...
This is done indirectly and at an incredibly inefficient rate, relatively speaking. It's almost a law of thermodynamics that you can't wholly convert heat to force, and if you look at any example of it happening IRL it converts that energy at a really inefficient rate.

A heat wave that generated force would do so because of the expansion of gas. You'd need so much heat to produce a result that would hit someone with the force of a punch that the person would melt or vaporize from the heat before being affected by the force.

DarkDragonMedeus said:
It's normal for cars to resist enough heat capacity up to 8-C levels but get easily flattened by Wall level punches for instance.
Click to expand...
Exactly. Composition matters for heat, not blunt force resistance. They don't translate.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
Wait, did we at any point already treat heat as something characters should be better able to resist based on pure durability?
Click to expand...
I've seen heat treated realistically in threads where AP isn't hugely different.

I don't think there's anything explicit saying we equate heat and force on the site, it's just that we list them under the same stat, which makes the situation supremely confusing.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
Wait, did we at any point already treat heat as something characters should be better able to resist based on pure durability?
Click to expand...
Not sure exactly what you mean by that question, but I think the answer's yes
 
If it's only as far as equating heat produced to AP after ascertaining that the way in which this heat is produced can be translated to the general attack power of the character by whatever mechanics allow them to do so, I don't think it is too much of an issue to group heat into ways to calculate AP.

There's already a lot we disregard to simplify stuff, though the measure with which those things differ from each other compared to how heat differs from physical is not the same and at which point the difference should stop allowing a correlation is kinda arbitrary still, so I think that much should be allowed.
 
@Agnaa

More or less if heat resistance was generally assumed to scale with durability for the sake of heat based feats being potentially used to scale durability.

... But yes, from that link it seems to be the case.

I don't have a problem with AP if it follows a sufficient criteria, but this is just weird.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
I don't think it is too much of an issue to group heat into ways to calculate AP.
Click to expand...
It's certainly an issue when verses actually differentiate the two, which we dismiss by making sweeping choices for no reason other than convenience.

LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
at which point the difference should stop allowing a correlation is kinda arbitrary still, so I think that much should be allowed.
Click to expand...
I've no clue how it's unreasonable to expect a system that assumes properties of heat transfer like heat capacity are parallel to Real Life to actually treat heat realistically as a result.

We already arbitrarily decided physics is continuous in fiction until proven otherwise when we decided to calc these feats. What we're doing right now is just being hypocritical or just internally inconsistent, or both.
 
Like agnaa said before, you are just deciding at which point a difference is different enough to matter arbitrarily, even if you say this is following the guidelines of what we accept as attack potency and why. I literally don't see, and still fail to see after giving the idea some thought and checking your own comments and those of others in the cold to AP discussion, why exactly would we differentiate heat in fictional settings where the source of such is the very identical same as other techniques, like chakra, whatever Mana replacement, Nen or whatever.

Now, when they are ACTUALLY treated as something different in universe? I can actually agree with you.
 
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