Freezing Calcs, and Why they Make No Sense

[AshenCrow777]

heres a direct translation of the ice beam


and the other is the japanese in-game description.

 

[Jaakubb]

I mean an intangible beam can't have temperature, right?

 

[Antoniofer]

An immaterial beam technically doesn't have temperature as is not made of matter, yes.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The Beam itself not does not, but resulting effect of the attack still effects the Thermal energy. It still nullifies it as Ugarik said.

 

[Ayewale]

Hi, I'm here coming back from 2 months after the original post in this thread. Just exactly what conclusion has been reached regarding the original topic at hand here?

 

[Jaakubb]

Sorry, I probably shouldn't have brought up a specific topic (ice beam). Idk what DDM thinks, but I'm pretty sure Agnaa and I think that cooling feats don't apply because it does not involve creating your own energy and utililizing it so it can't scale.

 

[Jaakubb]

bump

 

[Jaakubb]

bump

 

[Jaakubb]

bump

 

[Jaakubb]

bump

 

[Antoniofer]

Don't think there's much to discuss about, although personally I would like to divide the durability, and make the wiki more dynamic. Has been a general conclusion at all?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The only real general conclusion made was "We obviously can't just ignore these feats and calculations, but all the level headed people who are best at explaining the reasons are too busy with far more important stuff." Ugarik made some good points about making some distinguishing between temperature resistance and durability; but that was also agreed to be a case by case scenario and that we obviously should try to avoid over complicating the system by creating 20 different categories for Attack Potency and durability as DonTalk said.

But Xulrev, Ugarik, DonTalk and Mr Bambu all basically said their peace in which I agree with them that cooling calculations is that the existing thermal energy needs to be overcome in order to properly freeze stuff. And that it's still something to calculate and be treated as an Attack Potency feat. And there appears to be over 400 posts. So it looks like we might as well close this one soon.

 

[Antoniofer]

20 types is an exaggeration considering there's only 7 basic units (plus 7 mechanicals, whose number its reduced due not all cause damage). But its ok, I'll go with make distinctions.

 

[Overlord775]

7 is still a large number

 

[Antoniofer]

Selecting only those that can cause harm, the only units are temperature (cold/heat), current, force and pressure, without counting energy (as its the more ambiguos of all). So 5 at the end, not that I say is little, but its below 20 types.

 

[Agnaa]

Cutting force, piercing force, shear force, blunt force... 5 is underestimating it.

 

[Antoniofer]

The principle behind cutting and piercing its the same: force applied through an area (its a relationship); crushing, blunt, smashing, its the same, not much aside of these five. More specific? One could add acceleation and power, but these two can be covered by force and heat/energy.

 

[KLOL506]

This still makes things severely too complicated with negligible gains, like DT said.

 

[Antoniofer]

I just say it would be more dynamic with multiple durability, of course, at this height that is far to be made; doing something about thermal resistences isn't bad tho.

 

[KLOL506]

Here's the problem tho, Agnaa already explained that it would have been difficult back then to figure out durability for all these things and is still too difficult even now.

 

[Antoniofer]

For temperature? Don't think its that difficult, its generally compared to what is the user is capable to melt of subliminate (like if it melted rock, or if it vaporized mercury). Some oters may be less obvious, like heating increasing the temperature 5 degrees at a distance of 100 m from the character, but I believe a method like that should existint.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Kepekley said he was going to elaborate the details. But he has yet to return. However, we kinda of had a long discussion a long time ago that Ice wasn't considered hax and that poking someone with an Absolute Zero stick wasn't going to be treated as durability negation. There have also been discussions to treat cooling feats as AP equal to heating feats rather than hax.

I never understood the link between ice and dur negation. I agree it shouldn't be counted as hax.

 

[Jaakubb]

But Xulrev, Ugarik, DonTalk and Mr Bambu all basically said their peace in which I agree with them that cooling calculations is that the existing thermal energy needs to be overcome in order to properly freeze stuff.

That's what they thought before any of the important arguments were made. Only you and some others think that. You still haven't proven it. On the other hand, I have explained multiple times that you don't simply "negate" or "overcome" thermal energy to cool something. Cooling is a process that happens naturally, and even if you cool with a method other than natural processes, you are not producing and utilizing your own energy so it cannot scale to other stats. Probably environmental destruction at most.

 

[Jaakubb]

Slightly off topic, but why don't we account for piercing attacks (like bullets or blades) by using pressure units? I mean, we have used measurements other than plain joules before (like joules per second). I don't think we should use pressure units at any tier higher than 9-A though.

 

[Antoniofer]

One of the simplistic facets of the wiki, only use energy units to measure things (that is the main issue here, energy by itself do not measure force, pressure or temperature, neither does damage). Theorically, people with elevated lifting strength already peform "piercing" attacks by punching (in case they can punch), but that depends of the level of LS compered to the pressure of a bullet (and the type of bullet).

 

[Xulrev]

That's what they thought before any of the important arguments were made. Only you and some others think that

For what it's worth Jaakuub, I still do in fact believe that thermodynamic science is accurate, yes. For some reason I believe others will concur with that sentiment as well.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Except they haven't really changed their minds and simply said it's been discussed numerous times. Altering the climate is still something the character is doing with their own power. Extracting energy is still something that qualifies as AP as Bambu pointed out because you're still forcing energy out of something. Even heating feats can happen naturally, but a character heating/cooling an object or an area via their own power (Weather it's their own "Verse power source" or a magic spell) is still an AP feat. Energy telekinesis is still an AP feat. And if the same source can also naturally be used to amplify their punches, it scales to other stats. If shooting a laser out of your hands despite your body not being all that hot is still a feat, then so ice firing a freeze ray out of your hands.

Also, keep in mind that cloud feats are also a sub category of cooling feats. Characters forming clouds are still an AP feat via CAPE. And I also really don't need to point out our nearly 23,000 pages which have a bunch of characters and literally hundreds of calculations. Not using that as a basis, but let that sink in.

But at the same time, creating blizzards is an AP feat, freezing planets or stars is a AP feat, causing Ice Ages is an AP feat. Forming Ice Bergs out of thin air or producing liquid nitrogen out of nothing would also still be AP feats. Also, when you cool and area or an object, then other objects or climates are being heated. And heating multiple objects at once is still an AP feat when stacked together. If vaporizing liquid nitrogen is an AP feat, then so freezing objects in an instant.

 

[Jaakubb]

One of the simplistic facets of the wiki, only use energy units to measure things (that is the main issue here, energy by itself do not measure force, pressure or temperature, neither does damage). Theorically, people with elevated lifting strength already peform "piercing" attacks by punching (in case they can punch), but that depends of the level of LS compered to the pressure of a bullet (and the type of bullet).

OK, I worded it wrong. Joules per [unit of measurement] is not called pressure. Pressure measures force and is invalid. What I'm talking about is just joules per [unit of measurement]. We use joules per second, which is power, so why not this? It's still a measurement of energy.

 

[Jaakubb]

If shooting a laser out of your hands despite your body not being all that hot is still a feat, then so ice firing a freeze ray out of your hands.

Forcing energy out of an object is nothing like shooting a laser out of your hands. If I recall correctly (If I'm wrong prove it), in fiction forcing energy out of something works like telekinesis but with energy (by that I mean it is an unexplained ability/force that lets them move stuff from one place to another). You could argue that moving stuff involves energy, and this would be true if you're moving matter. However, energy moving from one place to another does not involve more energy, so this sort of "energy telekinesis" doesn't require any energy and shouldn't scale.

With lasers shooting out of your hands, energy is being produced within their body and so it must be tanked because it's inside their body. Also, this shows that the person is capable of generating that much energy for an attack, so it logically scales to other attacks that have the same energy source, that being the character. However, when cooling an object, the thermal energy never actually makes contact with the character. The character isn't even the source of energy, so it can't scale to other attacks.

 

[Jaakubb]

You could argue that moving stuff involves energy, and this would be true if you're moving matter. However, energy moving from one place to another does not involve more energy, so this sort of "energy telekinesis" doesn't require any energy and shouldn't scale.

Source for "energy telekinesis" scaling to other stats (keep in mind that it's not normal telekinesis, I just can't think of a better name)? I explain why it isn't here. The reason why AP feats scale to other stats is because they have to tank the energy due to it being in their body or Newton's third law (depends on the case) and because the energy source can be logically used for other attacks. However, "energy telekinesis" does not require any energy to be produced or tanked.

Please stop multi-posting and put all your thoughts in one coherent post, Jaakubb. You can easily format it to address several points instead of making numerous posts and spamming the thread

OK sorry I'll stop doing that I'm new.

 

[Xulrev]

Please stop multi-posting and put all your thoughts in one coherent post, Jaakubb. You can easily format it to address several points instead of making numerous posts and spamming the thread

 

[Antvasima]

@Agnaa, Medeus & Antoniofer

Has there been any progress here since I last visited?

 

[Agnaa]

I don't think so. There's been continued discussion about the mechanics at play but I don't think a new consensus was reached or that many minds were changed.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Maybe restarting the thread as staff only in the calc group forum would help?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Jaakuub as mentioned above multiple FMA and Avatar scales are rated the way they are based on much of the same concepts. And in Avatar's case, it literally states they used their own Chi to bend and freeze elements. And Eggrobo also literally had his Biosphere extraction feat (Calculated at High 6-A), that scaled to a lot of characters long before other stuff was brought up. There are also various Godzilla characters who scale from energy extraction feats which are similar to freezing feats extracting thermal energy. Our definition of the AP should be "The ability to harness a certain amount of energy in one move". Matter or energy cannot be created or destroyed realistically, it can only be transferred. There also exists characters who freeze stuff upon contact.

@Antvasima, I suppose that could work.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Feel free to do so then.

 

[Jaakubb]

@Jaakuub as mentioned above multiple FMA and Avatar scales are rated the way they are based on much of the same concepts. And in Avatar's case, it literally states they used their own Chi to bend and freeze elements. And Eggrobo also literally had his Biosphere extraction feat (Calculated at High 6-A), that scaled to a lot of characters long before other stuff was brought up. There are also various Godzilla characters who scale from energy extraction feats which are similar to freezing feats extracting thermal energy.

You're not explaining why that is valid though. You're arguing "We've used this method before so it must be valid" (Appeal to authority). Also, those feats are completely different. When cooling feats happen, the extracted energy does not necessarily come into contact with the character. That is literally the entire point of telekinesis. In your mentioned examples, the character absorbs the energy and tanks it and can use it as an energy source. The same does NOT necessarily apply for all or even a significant amount of cooling feats. If you can prove that freezing feats NECESSARILY involve tanking and absorbing energy then they'll be valid.

Also please let me still be in the conversation i'll stop multi posting. also i was focusing on really unimportant arguments. This one is the only important one.

Our definition of the AP should be "The ability to harness a certain amount of energy in one move". Matter or energy cannot be created or destroyed realistically, it can only be transferred.

First of all, energy is NOT created in these instances. I don't think I used the word "create." Energy and mass is PRODUCED, not CREATED. The definition of produce according to Google is "make or manufacture from components or raw materials." You are taking already existing materials and turning them into something else. For example, a reactor could produce energy through fission. However, no matter or energy is created or destroyed, but a small fraction of the matter is transformed into an equivalent amount of energy. Second, the reason why the definition of AP is what it is is because of a very important factor: The fact that durability scales to AP. While punching something with Building Level energy and tanking the stress the body undergoes logically scales to durability because of Newton's 3rd Law, the ability to "harness energy" is not even a real life concept and thus has no scientific laws about it that would prove it scales to durability. Also, to quote you:

And if the same source can also naturally be used to amplify their punches, it scales to other stats.

Harnessing energy does not involve an energy source. An objection you may have is that "matter telekinesis" scales to AP so why can't "energy telekinesis"? Well, "matter telekinesis" involves movement of objects (joules) so it must involve energy. On the other hand, "energy telekinesis" does not involve an energy source because you can't directly use energy to move energy. Energy is always moving from place to place, and in real life, there is no way to directly change its course. Therefore, it can't scale to other AP attacks either.

I guess I'm fine with calcing cooling feats (although it would be useless because it doesn't scale to anything) but my problem is with cooling feats scaling to AP and durability.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I'm strongly inclined to agree with Jaakuub here.

I feel as if I've already given all I have to say on the issue, however.

 

[Antvasima]

So what should we do here? Would a staff only restart with a summary in the beginning be a good idea?

 

[Xulrev]

I am of the opinion that would be for the best, Ant, yes. Bambu and I stated our positions rather strongly from the word 'Go' at the top of this thread, and somehow it devolved into numerous other topics, none of which I think strongly negated the core points due to too many persons sidetracking it.

I am heavily in favor of staff-only discussion on the topic since this won't resolve naturally.