Freezing Calcs, and Why they Make No Sense

[Agnaa]

I don't think we need to separate heat from force by removing it from AP to be internally consistent. Just like how we don't need to separate piercing from blunt in AP to be internally consistent. Even though heat and force are more different than piercing and blunt, I think the same "consistency" argument is as wrong in each of those cases.

They do apply for fictional trends, like with how Time Stop and Time Manipulation are their own pages with their own resistances, despite both being timehax.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

but there are cases where we use what's common in fiction to determine our standards that are unlikely to change.

Honestly, a lot more of those are applications of logic and the "physics is assumed until proven otherwise" point I brought above rather than trends in fiction as a whole. Outliers, for example, are something we call a "fictional trend" but the concept is based on basic statistics and doesn't need "fictional trends" to exist.

The question lies in when exactly we can make broad assumptions about fiction ignoring real life physics and when we can't, which is something I myself would like a solid answer for

I feel it's best to assume RL physics is in fiction until proven otherwise. Once we accept that, we don't need to make broad assumptions of "what verses ignore" but just need to make singular judgement on "what this verse ignores".

The difference between heat and force is so vastly larger than piercing and blunt I'd say it's poor to equate the two, although you nearly admit this yourself.

We need to separate it, however, if we want to be internally consistent with how we treat LS/SS, though. I recall you agreeing with me that LS/SS were more different than Piercing/Blunt, too.

They do apply for fictional trends, like with how Time Stop and Time Manipulation are their own pages with their own resistances, despite both being timehax.

No? They're just two definitions that overlap with one another. We don't need to argue "fictional trends" to separate them any more than we need to discuss metaphysics to define "apple" and "fruit". They're terms we made up to describe stuff we see in verses, which can be described and talked of independently of "fiction as a whole".

 

[Hizack123]

kiryu: his tier came from his absolute zero feats so if this thread get accept he will get downgrade

<s>Kiryu: *Giggle* i'm in danger

 

[Agnaa]

I don't think separating LS/SS for (in my opinion) multiple reasons means we need to separate heat and force because it shares one of those reasons. It's required for internal consistency with how you view things (I think you believe LS/SS is separated only for one reason that heat and force share), but not with how I view things.

You're ignoring the part about how they have separate resistances. Having resistance to fruit should give you resistance to apple, but we don't necessarily do that with time stop/time manipulation because of fictional trends.

Also, in other cases we'd say that resisting apple lets you resist orange, because they're both fruit. Many "X manipulation" resistances work like this.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

not with how I view things.

"We've talked this extensively on discord and all I really have to say is I've contacted DontTalk about the specifics of why the two are separated, seeing as your understanding of the criteria and my understanding are fundamentally different."

Already addressed this. For the time being, though, I'll argue on the reason we both agree on and can be objectively proven before I argue about reasons that come from your opinions on the matter.

You're ignoring the part about how they have separate resistances.

Yes, as having a resistance to an apple doesn't mean you have a resistance to all fruit. That's just us not applying a specific power resistance to the entire family of powers loosely related to it, which is just basic logic, something we don't need knowlege of 'fictional trends' to apply.

Also, in other cases we'd say that resisting apple lets you resist orange, because they're both fruit. Many "X manipulation" resistances work like this.

Could you give a specific example of this, so I have a reference of what you're talking about?

 

[Andytrenom]

So I did talk very briefly about this subject off-site, but I don't believe I clarified what my conclusion was here

Basically I think it's an idea to separate temperature feats and more physical impact based feats during scaling, that is withstanding extreme temperatures will no longer imply you can withstand punches of that energy output and vice versa

I am not as confident about treating fire and heat releasing feats this way as I am about treating ice feats, but, I think this is the most sensible option that addresses some of the concerns raised in this thread

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Basically I think it's an idea to separate temperature feats and more physical impact based feats during scaling, that is withstanding extreme temperatures will no longer imply you can withstand punches of that energy output and vice versa

This is the crux of my proposal, and I'll admit that the OP doesn't make that clear, especially since a lot of ideas have developed as the thread has progressed.

Outside of that, it's mostly just terminology and linguistics, while I'd prefer us eventually restructuring the page format to account for doing this it isn't entirely necessary to do this.

 

[Andytrenom]

This does make me wonder though, how will we treat explosion feats? Since an explosion is a combination of both force from shockwaves and intense amounts of heat.

 

[Overlord775]

@Dargoo

They only thing that i got from this is that you want to make Ice and Fire durability negation, which makes 0 sense as like 95% most of fiction doesn't threat them like that and it would be like saying that a localized time stop would send the character in to space because the rest of the earth keeps moving.

 

[Lightbuster30]

This does make me wonder though, how will we treat explosion feats? Since an explosion is a combination of both force from shockwaves and intense amounts of heat.

Do what we do with nukes and cut it in half?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

They only thing that i got from this is that you want to make Ice and Fire durability Negation

Treat it similarly, not make it outright durability negation. If that's all you got from the thread I want to say you just didn't read it thoroughly, although acting like that gets us nowhere. Heat feats are common enough in fiction that you'll rarely see something like Goku getting rofled by a strong heat-based attack.

which makes 0 sense as like 95% most of fictio

Less than 50% of our site even has heat/fire/ice manipulation, so nice exaggeration. More verses treat heat like heat and not like blunt force as our system suggests, and my claim on this is just as valid as yours as neither of us can prove "95%/most" fiction.

wit would be like saying that a localized time stop would send the character in to space because the rest of the earth keeps moving.

"Treat fiction as if it follows physics until proven otherwise," one of my biggest points on this thread that you conveniently ignored here to make my argument look bad.

If the verse has timestop it obviously doesn't do that if it's ever been demonstrated once. I'm sure the verses that would actually meet that criteria can be counted on one of my hands.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

This does make me wonder though, how will we treat explosion feats? Since an explosion is a combination of both force from shockwaves and intense amounts of heat.

Explosions are a combination of both heat (fireball) and force (shockwave). People who are at the epicenter of an explosion likely stay the same, but we might need to make edits to cases where Inverse Square is used as the force and heat of an explosion propagate differently.

 

[Antoniofer]

For explosion we use the inverse square law (although I suggested another method) if they are far from the center of the explosion, and those in the center are pretty much inaltered by this. However, take into account that an average human would survive a 9-C explosion at point blank.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

@Anton

Basically. At a pretty small distance the force of the explosion just amounts to strong vibrations that cause internal damage, most of the damage you'll see is from the heat it produces, which doesn't deal blunt force trauma.

 

[Spinoirr]

its still a ap feat for makeing the explosion, but if someone lived the explsion then that would'nt afect their durbilty?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

its still a ap feat for makeing the explosion, but if someone lived the explsion then that would'nt afect their durbilty?

Depends, is all I can say. Distance from the explosion plays a large part in durability, especially if we aren't meshing together heat and force like we usually do.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

So if the verse doesn't treat it as some heavenly divine technique incomparable to punches, slashes or piercing then it can be added as AP + Durability for fire & ice (not sure about electricity).Or you can soak in lava but get stomped by punches, meaning your capacity to resist heat or the cold doesn't translate to actual durability.

Thread is too lax, seems all this will end with a little note on every characters profile or on some page, 'We understand this isn't entirely accurate but most verses have linear power scaling and treat all attacks as comparable to each other powered by their supernatural energy, thus we treat it the same'

 

[Antoniofer]

Unfortunately we do not got a relationship between potential energy of the explosive and the amount of heat it produces, it also may depends of the compound (tnt or black powder for example).

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Or you can soak in lava but get stomped by punches, meaning your capacity to resist heat or the cold doesn't translate to actual durability.

I mean, you shouldn't need to demonstrate that you can be more easily harmed by punches to come to the conclusion that heat resistance doesn't equate to blunt durability. We'd want to have the verse demonstrate an equivalence between a heat-based attack and a force-based attack, although even then that's just ignoring physics and I don't see why we'd use RL physics to calc the feats despite this.

seems all this will end with a little note on every characters profile or on some page, 'We understand this isn't entirely accurate but most verses have linear power scaling and treat all attacks as comparable to each other powered by their supernatural energy, thus we treat it the same'

Uh, I'm proposing for us to actually separate the stats, not note that we ignore basic thermodynamics when judging feats.

 

[Overlord775]

@Dargoo

I could name hundreds of verses that threat it as raw AP, notable examples being:

Fairy Tail

The Holy Shonen Trinity

Dragon Ball

Marvel Comics

Pokemon

Digimon

Mario

Sonic

Every RPG game ever

Every Tabletop game ever

ECT

While you would be hard pressed to even find verses that don't threat physical endurace as enought to tank heat

 

[DMB_1]

A lot of what you've mantinoed are more so verses that treat Freezing as a type of attacks correlated to AP, independant from its actual temperature, not actually ajor feats coming from someone freezing something.

And I remind you that in verses like Dragon Ball where a 3-B being as hot as the sun is considered formidable, if we were to throw the "logic > fiction" aside.

 

[AshenCrow777]

Don't want to be that guy but what I basically understand is that the reason why we don't fix flaws in our wiki boils down to the fact that we are kind of lazy and actively avoid more work and prefer to stay with oversimplified things that are sometimes at their core...Flawed

"I do agree that generally you can't make accurate claims about fiction as a whole, but there are cases where we use what's common in fiction to determine our standards that are unlikely to change. The most notable example I can think of is not treating high speed movement as AP by default, since usually fiction doesn't abide by real life rules of kinetic energy. The question lies in when exactly we can make broad assumptions about fiction ignoring real life physics and when we can't, which is something I myself would like a solid answer for"-Andy

We should really address this issue after this thread


I agree with everything with what Dragoon and Anton said so far.


Also what we don't use speed for AP????? This seems really really wrong

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

@Dargoo I could name hundreds of verses that threat it as raw AP, notable examples being

Cool, so you're just listing a bunch of names without actually explaining anything. You're making the claim, actually back it up.

And you know what? Actually name those hundreds of verses instead of exaggerating your claims to make them sound more impressive.

Oh also Goku actually gets harmed by less impressive heat attacks compared to the force he usually takes (in energy), but I'm sure you'll pass that off as PIS.

While you would be hard pressed to even find verses that don't threat physical endurace as enought to tank heat

Here's one: Real Life.

You know, the reference we use to determine constants and values for feats in the first place. If we're using RL physics to judge feats, those feats should also be scrutinized through RL physics.

Otherwise we're making up an imaginary set of physics with no actual base in any verse just of of convenience for assigning values to feats. We're attempting to apply science otherwise calculations as a whole wouldn't exist.

 

[Overlord775]

If litterally MOST of fiction ignores it, we have to ignore it too, as it would be activelly be warping the series to fit RL standards

 

[Ayewale]

Don't want to be that guy but what I basically understand is that the reason why we don't fix flaws in our wiki boils down to the fact that we are kind of lazy and actively avoid more work and prefer to stay with oversimplified things that are sometimes at their core...Flawed
"I do agree that generally you can't make accurate claims about fiction as a whole, but there are cases where we use what's common in fiction to determine our standards that are unlikely to change. The most notable example I can think of is not treating high speed movement as AP by default, since usually fiction doesn't abide by real life rules of kinetic energy. The question lies in when exactly we can make broad assumptions about fiction ignoring real life physics and when we can't, which is something I myself would like a solid answer for"-Andy

We should really address this issue after this thread


I agree with everything with what Dragoon and Anton said so far.


Also what we don't use speed for AP????? This seems really really wrong

We fix things in the wiki. It's just that fixing problems take a while, especially when you have problems spread out across 18,000 pages, with a lot of those problems requiring a revamp of thousands of those pages. It's a little hard for the mod team to manage every single CRT, vs battle and page on this wiki at the same time, don'tcha ******* think?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

If litterally MOST of fiction ignores it, we have to ignore it too, as it would be activelly be warping the series to fit RL standards

You can't actually prove that, so my word is as good as yours.

Here's my take: Most of fiction doesn't care about physics unless it helps progress the plot, or if they intend to have a sense of realism. We, however, need to use physics to quantify fictional feats, so we must assume that physics is continuous in fiction until it clearly isn't, otherwise the constants you use to quantify the feats have just as little sense in existing.

So, if the assumption is "water has a heat capacity of X", we must also assume "heat and force spread energy differently".

 

[Spinoirr]

Lots of verses need to be downgraded... Wonder how much

I'm sure gray melting ice is fine as he is melting it and not making it

 

[AshenCrow777]

First of all calm the **** down I don't see why you are so triggered and yes I know it's a lot of work but do you realize how many we are 9n this wiki? We are a lot everyone can contribute to change the wiki and perfect it but you know why we can't???


Because each time there's something no else but the mod team can do it that's my grip each times there's something other people gets put aside despite a lot of us can be helpful that's why the mod team is overworked because by their own fault and how the system works they limitied themselves and basically backed themselves up in a ditch.


But if we can develop an actual system where the mods and people are not can work together to fix some stuffs on this weeky A LOT OF THINGS COULD BE DONE QUICKLY and in a orderly manner hell half of the mods we have what do they actually do in almost every thread I see the same one contributing but the more obscure ones just gone and poof.


In results all the work load falls on the actives ones we need to fix how we operate.


BUT ONLY AFTER WE FINISH THIS THREAD SO NO MORE DERAILING!

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Just gonna bump this and mention this thread while im at it:

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3517767

Since the premise is similar but in reverse.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

>but in reverse

Yare Yare Daze

(EDIT): Huh, you're arguing the same thing as me. Kudos on that.

 

[KLOL506]

bruh

it's basically this thread but only focusing on Heat. There wasn't any need for making another one in the first place.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I mean, I was planning on making a new thread for this anyways, Earl just saved me a lot of work.

 

[Hizack123]

So will this affect someone like Kiryu?

 

[KLOL506]

Yeah.

 

[Hizack123]

How? (Not to annoying you or anything just need reason and what will happen to his AP)

 

[KLOL506]

OP already states it.

AP will prolly be downgraded to the next best feat available if this goes through.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Ideally his AP would not include heat-related feats, which would just be listed elsewhere.

Let me be clear: I'm not trying to discount heat feats as a whole. I simply want us to treat the use of heat to attack characters and the use of force to attack characters differently. As (opinion) it is often treated in fiction, as (not an opinion) it is in real life.

 

[Hizack123]

Hmm i guess that fine

 

[AshenCrow777]

I agree with Dragoo

 

[Jaakubb]

bump