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Authors ignore physics, we decide not to, otherwise calculations as a whole is an opinion-based matter.Imaginym said:Don't authors often ignore & not consider physics? Them doing so is why we treat AoE how we do.
This is why I propose we index heat separately given how differently it works compared to more traditional forms of damage. I get we can't do this kind of thing on a whim, but I'd love to have lengthy discussions with DontTalk and other members of our calc team on making small fixes that can work into big changes.Andytrenom said:not counting them as AP doesn't seem like a good idea to me. Such feats will usually be directly linked with a character's level of power and so it is better we try and quantify them so that the character's capabilities are indexed properly
Don't do that here, because you will get nowhere. We divorce ourselves from the authors a lot in here. If we don't use common sense and normal physics to the degree that it's possible, we have literally nothing yo stand on beyond empty guesstimations approaching wild subjective guessing. What the author knows matters squat, what happens in the story does.Hizack123 said:Can we stop try to fully use IRL logic and rule on fictions??
The author is not a scientist nor magical IRL
Does that mean the characters is not stong at it said to be?
No ofcouse not.
I'm sorry, but what's exactly the difference? If someone is stated to resist temperatures 1 bagillion degrees high and someone demonstrates walking around in 1 bagillion degrees weather, there's no real demonstrable difference, execpt maybe the second being slightly less impressive since they wouldn't immediately go up to that temperature.Agnaa said:I thought that these had to be explicitly stated resistances, not just tanking those things.
For reasons that don't apply to lightning, as sending out an electrical current is an output of energy.Agnaa said:But creating lightning's still a feat, and you're arguing against creating ice being a feat.
While entirely true, not nearly to the degree that heat and work are different, as those are all examples of work/force.Agnaa said:Well ability to tank shear forces, cutting forces, blunt forces, etc are all very different.
You act as if all fiction treats all physics equally. Some verses are more inclined to follow physics, while others aren't.KLOL506 said:Yeah but we can only go with IRL physics in fiction so far before we hit an upper limit.
This is just outright wrong. Even as it is now we have had and agreed in discussions that have separated electricity (tanking a lightning bolt isn't a durability feat, etc etc) and durability, and we have characters with resistances to Heat, Gravity, Electricity, et cetera, despite that if your claim were true these would all just be extensions of their durability ranking. |
That was for the removal of freezing from AP, not for my largescale revisions to heat.Agnaa said:I was responding to you appealing to how we do things right now, to show that that's not how we do things right now.
Since you're dropping this I won't go on too long, but I've said numerous times at this point that I'm arguing two things. 1. Discounting Freezing as AP under our current system and 2. Planning largescale edits to our system in separating heat and work from durability.Agnaa said:True, but you brought up the example of lightning and durability.
"Slightly different" greatly downplays the distinction between heat and work, just saying. Separating shearing/piercing/blunt force would be like separating animals by species, separating heat and work is like talking about multi-cellular life versus single-cellular life.Agnaa said:Great, then we're both choosing slightly different arbitrary distinctions, and there's no objective reason to choose one over the other.
There is no "arbitrary distinction". Heat and work are not differentiated "arbitrarily", they're two entirely different concepts and deal with the two basic forms by which energy is transferred.Agnaa said:The arbitrary distinction is the point where you're choosing to stop by not separating shearing/piercing/blunt force.
I'm fine with continuing the discussion just on that (I noticed a lack of responses from my points on freezing early in my debate with you), while we can discuss heat over discord, although I'd still like this thread to be something I can refer to when discussing changes to the system and how it treats heat.Agnaa said:I don't have anything particularly important to say to the rest of your post, just that this thread should probably be focusing on freezing as AP rather than separating heat and work from durability.
That and "separating heat and work is arbitrary" are not mutually exclusive, one. Two, if you weren't trying to claim the former, you wouldn't have claimed this:Agnaa said:The arbitrary part is not separating every single different type of attack.
Actually, no, I'm not. I'm going by the precedence of what this site has decided is different enough to matter, not my opinion on what is different enough to matter. There's a difference; if you notice I keep on using the Lifting/Striking example because it's so easy to point out how we separate much less different concepts. Lifting/Striking is more different than Piercing/Blunt but is less different than Heat and Force. Simple logic.Agnaa said:arbitrarily choosing how much of a difference matters.
You have no standing to make that claim, unless I'm mistaken, and you are intimately familiar with every character on the wiki, or in fiction as a whole.Agnaa said:More characters have both lifting/striking feats than characters that have heat-based feats.
We've talked this extensively on discord and all I really have to say is I've contacted DontTalk about the specifics of why the two are separated, seeing as your understanding of the criteria and my understanding are fundamentally different.Agnaa said:I think you're misreading the site's precedent, and I'd point to the separation of power and ability pages as an example.
I don't understand what you mean by this. Our power/ability pages are shorthand that applies based on what we see of the specific characters, not fictional trends. Unless you're talking about something else?Agnaa said:If you believe that we can't make claims on fiction as a whole, then we can't separate power & ability pages based on how common they are in fiction, which I think is necessary.