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"6-A, with 5-B thermal power"
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How would we word it though? AP is worded in a way so that it logically scales to most or all of the character's attacks and durability.Dargoo Faust said:So, I still technically hold the first opinion - under the caveat that we word AP to something that doesn't exclude freezing by definition.
Appears to be. We can't just assume that all freezing feats make use of "Anti-Thermal energy." I don't really know much about rwby though.DarkDragonMedeus said:Weiss Schnee uses her aura to freeze targets, so it is combat applicable in her case. That's an example of aura behaving on what appears to be Anti-Thermal energy.
How does she use the force fields to attacks? I don't know that much about marvel powerscaling and I prefer not to because imo it's really inconsistent. lee's video on marvel powerscaling is pretty based. Also, I don't get how characters making energy barriers comparable to their attacks has anything to do with proving that cooling feats require an input of an amount of energy equal to the amount of energy displaced. I think "ranged energy displacement" MIGHT be a better term than "energy telekinesis". It's weird too though.DarkDragonMedeus said:characters like The Invisible Woman have the ability to use her own force-fields as an attack. It's also an extremely common ability for characters to make an energy barrier that's just as tough as their KI attacks.
And Naruto uses his chakra to cast jutsu.DarkDragonMedeus said:Weiss Schnee uses her aura to freeze targets, so it is combat applicable in her case. That's an example of aura behaving on what appears to be Anti-Thermal energy. And I meant characters like The Invisible Woma have the ability to use her own force-fields as an attack. It's also an extremely common ability for characters to make an energy barrier that's just as tough as their KI attacks.
You're begging the question. You're using the claim that freezing is AP to prove that freezing is AP.DarkDragonMedeus said:Bending and displacing thermal energy with your own willpower is still an AP feat, and actually; there are a lot of feats of characters causing a global scale Ice Age. And firing an ice bolt from your body that freezes stuff is still AP; as is an Ice Dragon's breath.
I'd say no to that, if they have absolutely no heat feats. Although I'd be hard-pressed to find a 6-B with no heat resistance feats due to how feats on that scale would go off, there's probably a decent amount of just get in the tier due to scaling.Agnaa said:Would, say, a 6-B with no feats related to tanking heat-based attacks still be able to tank a 6-C freezing/heat based attack?
Are you fine with calcs of freezing energy scaling to other attacks if there's a shared energy source or something similar?
I mean, if someone would actually like to explain how to translate blunt force resistance to thermal change resistance I'm all ears. There's no correlation IRL, but perhaps someone has something I didn't look into.Agnaa said:that response is currently generally disagreed with, so it's something the thread should talk about.
If the energy system of the verse is not consistent with how energy transfers and is calculated IRL, I'm not sure why we try to scale IRL energy values with an entirely different system of energy.Agnaa said:Well, currently we always allow it, so if you think it should be more case-by-case than that, then that's something the thread should discuss.
Look above you.The God Of Procrastination said:How would we word it though? AP is worded in a way so that it logically scales to most or all of the character's attacks and durability.
True, although that's kinda irrelevant to the conversation at hand:DarkDragonMedeus said:There also exist a lot of vehicles and some characters whose heat resistance is greater than durability against blunt force trauma.
IRL freezing and heating are the same thing, it's more a matter of what's losing heat and what's gaining heat.Jaakubb said:Same as what? I think freezing feats and heat feats are way different. Heat feats are at least somewhat applicable to AP, but not freezing.
So, I commented on this and never had a response, so I'll try starting a debate with this, then.DarkDragonMedeus said:Though, as Ugarik said, if the change temperature attakcs and physical strikes all operate on the same mechanics such as "Everything comes Chakra, or Ki, or the force, or psynergy, ect" type of scenarios, then we could equalize it all.
IMO equalizing everything when it has the same source has issues when the source itself isn't consistent with how we value energy IRL.Dargoo Faust said:If the energy system of the verse is not consistent with how energy transfers and is calculated IRL, I'm not sure why we try to scale IRL energy values with an entirely different system of energy.
I'd love to see opinions on the above point, personally. All I've seen thusfar is mostly with how we list the feats on pages, but the issues with scaling and how the feats are treated and used in VSes weren't discussed as much.
An important thing is that AP automatically scales to the character's other attacks and durability. It can't do either because freezing attacks:DarkDragonMedeus said:The AP definition should be changed to mention displacing energy or the ability to concentrate or harness energy rather than simply saying produce energy. Ice Manipulation is still harnessing or concentrating energy and would thus be AP. It's the same as heating objects but in reverse; kind of like rising vs falling or moving forward vs moving backwards. Also, forgot to mention that some characters have the ability to undo their own freezes back to just normal temperatures; that's technically heating. So we should still treat cooling and heating feats equally based on what Kaltias, Xulrev, and Bambu said.
Really? That's good then as long as we don't scale one attack to the energy transferred.Andytrenom said:"An important thing is that AP automatically scales to the character's other attacks and durability. It can't do either because freezing attacks"
It absolutely doesn't. AP only automatically scales to durability when it's a physical attack and can vary between different attacks of the same character.
Why does it matter if it's a "mark of the character's own power"? Don't we just mostly discard intent on the author's part? Could you give me an example of someone who has reality warping listed on AP? I thought we scaled reality warping etc. to dura and other attacks. If we don't that's a good thing.Andytrenom said:In most circumstances, freezing feats will still be a mark of the character's own power, and have a limit depending on the specific individual. That's why it's important to mention the energy value involved in performing them which should be listed in the AP and tier section,because those are meant to illustrate how strong a character is. Even stuff like environmental destruction and reality warping are listed in AP and tier despite not scaling and often not scaling to other stats respectively, and that's because they are still relevant to the character's strength and worth noting.
I know. I was just making sure that DDM wouldn't bring up newton's third law to try to scale freezing to dura. Also, I did mention earlier that "energy telekinesis" for the lack of a better term is different from "matter telekinesis."Andytrenom said:"Newton's Third Law does not apply since nothing comes in contact with the character. That's the entire point of telekinesis in general. There is no energy produced inside the body to be tanked either." If you're arguing against freezing being AP then this point doesn't work in your favour. Telekinesis is something we treat as AP, and so we wouldn't discredit freezing for working in a similar way.
Jaakubb said:"Energy telekinesis" (there is probably a better term for this) and object telekinesis are entirely different. One involves altering the path of where energy moves (which itself does not require energy because you can't use energy to directly alter the path of energy IRL, only indirectly, keep in mind that energy is ALWAYS moving on its own). The other involves moving objects. The definition of kinetic energy is literally "energy which a body possesses by virtue of being in motion."