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Four Giants Major Downgrade

No offence, but a lot of the stuff in the blog looks really iffy. First off all, why are we using game mechanics to severely low-ball the size of Termina's Moon? Same with the speed falling? There's no way the literal Moon crashing into the Earth is only Island level. Plus, this was an N64 game where cinematics had all these limitations. If it's a Parallel world to Hyrule, then that only further elaborates that Termina's planet would have to be a real planet and the Moons would have to be a real moon.

Anyway, the moon crashing is clearly stated to obliterate the entire world, which could be High 6-A or 5-B depending on context. But the Hyrule example is even worse. Hyrule was calculated to be quite massive in Breath of the Wild and Wind Waker, so much so that it makes perfect sense to take place on a real planet, not some mini dwarf planet. And if the planet is normal sized, so would the moon.

Honestly, I find the OP and blog to be really knit picky. Plus, even Gyorg has a High 6-C feat, so there's no reason for Majora's Mask to simply be 6-C.
 
@Medeus Can you explain what you mean by game mechanics? A bit unclear. Is it the tides? The size of the moon? Both?

I don't see how you can say that the size of the moon is low-balled. You can literally see it. You don't have to do any sort of pixel scaling whatsoever to see that the Moon is around the size of Clock Town's widest point wrapped around a sphere. Just because it's called "the Moon" does not mean it's literally Earth's Moon. I think it's far more iffy to contradict in-game evidence than to just go off what we know and can readily observe.

I'll concede that you could probably make a case for the cutscene being in part or in full in cinematic time, since the entire game takes place over the course of a 72-hour loop, but... what are you going to scale it to? The game, but stretched out into real time? Kind of slow, boss. I think the cutscene is the fastest we're going to see it.

You say cinematics were a limitation of the hardware, but Majora's Mask 3D, which was released nearly 15 years later, still has the same size for the moon, no tides, nothing. You can see a comparison here, for reference. Pretty much nothing has changed except some updated graphics, indicating that yeah, they told the story they wanted to tell.

I brought up the concept of Termina being a parallel world because we don't know the size of Hyrule's planet, or Hyrule's moon, or Termina's planet. We do know the size of Termina's moon, though, so I don't see why they wouldn't be comparable.

I did address the game over message on the calc page comments, so I'll copy and paste what I said there.

"Many things could be inferred by that statement. It could be saying the world as in a planet. You'd then have to figure out how big Termina's planet is. It could also mean world as in "a region or group of countries", or the game world, which I found more likely. It could be 'annihilated' as in a scorched Earth scenario. It could be 'annihilated' as in the surface of Termina's planet has been destroyed. It could be 'annihilated' as in the planet itself has been completely obliterated. it could be 'annihilated' as in just the region of Termina that Majora's Mask takes place in has been destroyed. That statement does do one thing, though: it means it can't possibly be below Island level, since the bosses count as inhabitants and they'd have to be killed by it. The phrasing of it is too vague for it to mean anything else other than that, though."

We don't know how big Hyrule is. "Massive" is relative, and you can really describe just about anything with that. Dwayne Johnson? Sure. Kansas? Okay. Pluto? Dwarf planet, but if you were stuck on it, you'd think it was big. So on and so forth. Saying BOTW Hyrule is massive doesn't mean anything, really. It's massive for a game, yes. It's bigger than Skyrim, if I recall correctly. It's also a quarter of the size of Manhattan.

I'm not saying Majora is 6-C. I said in the fourth sentence of the calc that this doesn't affect him at all since he's already indisputably 3-A. I am saying, however, that the feat was 6-C, so it would affect those who scale off it. AKA, the Four Giants.

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Still the objects in game are not drawn to scale. It's like very cartoon like art style for the moon to appear small. But it would still have to be generating enough force to bust Termina's planet. Actually, someone calculated the Overworld of Breath of the Wild to be Almost as big as the Earth's diameter, which judging by the edges doesn't even look close to Hyrule's actual size. It also makes more sense for it to take place on a planet as opposed to some flat Earth.

Even being on a modern console doesn't really help it that much. Because as I said, cartoonish art style. And again, in Wind Waker, there is a massive ocean to explore, I highly doubt it takes place on some tiny planet with super low gravity. Also, I doubt the world map is the entirity of Termina, or even if it was. It's not like pixel scaling is drown to scale. So using visuals to judge Majora's moon really isn't the best approach. That's the same thing as saying Sonic's max running speed is 10 m/s. Or that the planets in Kirby are 9-A' sized.

The 4 Giants shouldn't be any weaker than the Temple bosses, who are High 6-C scaling from Gyorg. And the feat should still be High 6-A at bare minimum. And still, I don't agree with the 4 Giants being downgraded nor Calamity Ganon either. Their moon being the same size as ours should be the standard assumption unless stated.
 
I mean, the 3DS isn't very powerful itself. Only around gamecube power

Also, assuming the moon is the size of clock town due to pictures is a bad argument, even in real life the sun/moon are far smaller than they actually are
 
Wait, hang on, before we continue on this train of thought, I need to bring up something I forgot about. There's definitely some things I want to say in response, but I feel like this could possibly upgrade the calc.

The Moon starts to burn up right near the very end of its descent (the game over cutscene) and create a fireball. Google is telling me that's because of air compression. Is that relevant at all? I'm no physics whiz, but maybe we can get a better speed from that?

Since it's the very end, and not the rest of the game, maybe Majora is substantially speeding it up once it reaches a critical point above Clock Town, at which point I'd need to reevaluate.
 
Meteors do on average fall on Earth '''11200 m/s''' at night and '''20000 m/s''' to '''72000 m/s''' on some occasions. And the speed getting pressed against the air does cause it to set aflame.
 
I disagree with the downgrade, as everyone said the Moon appears to be small because of the small power of the console. In an interview the Planet where there is the land of Hyrule was confirmed to be called Earth, so we can assume without any problem that the it has the same size of our real world.
 
@DarkDragonMedeus Is there a way we can find out how fast something of a certain mass has to be before it starts fireballing? I'm 99% sure whatever governs that is dependent on mass, and meteors are much less massive than Termina's moon.

@Lgamer099 99 The Moon also appears at a similar size in Hyrule Warriors and Smash Ultimate, so graphical power is not an issue.

Didn't know about the interview. That helps. We still can't prove that Hyrule's moon is comparable to Earth's, especially when there is concrete visual evidence to suggest otherwise.

@Ant Why was that post removed?
 
Hyrule Warriors is completely different; in Warriors, all it does is knock out a pack of soldiers. In Majora's Mask, it literally "Destroys the entire world upon crashing". Which World means planet in this case so it's High 6-A at bare minimum. Also, both Warriors and Smash are non-canon to Zelda.

Also, that removed comment was someone who posted and removed his own comment.
 
Okay, please don't use literally when it's not literal. The literal quote is: "And so the angry moon fell from the sky, annihilating this world and its many inhabitants. All items and such gained these last three days are lost."

I already elaborated in previous posts that it could mean a scorched Earth scenario, a surface destruction feat, literal fragmentation of the planet, and that the statement is too vague to tell. Furthermore, it doesn't say the entire world, indicating that the definition of "a region or group of countries" or the game world are still possibilities as well.

High 6-C at bare minimum since it kills the bosses, but any debates are going to be useless until we figure out how to calculate what speed it's really falling at with the fireball, since that's going to change KE drastically.

I mentioned the non-canon games because the size didn't change drastically between them and both versions of Majora's Mask, indicating some level of internal consistency despite different hardware. There's a manga panel that shows the curvature of Termina, the moon, and Clock Tower, indicating that the planet itself isn't that big, but that's non-canon too, so I'll leave that one up to the crowd.

Also, do we want to keep using N64 or switch to 3DS for this calc? I used N64 because the moon was more spherical there. I ask because apparently N64 has cloud movement in the game over cutscene whereas 3DS doesn't, which would hint at a significant reduction in energy between the two versions.
 
I know scorching the Earth as opposed to blowing up the planet is a possibility, but it's clearly planetary in scale; otherwise, it wouldn't be saying "Annihilating this world." So it's High 6-A at bare minimum because I recall scortching the surface of the Earth being calculated at just over an Exaton on NarutoForums.

I already explained that calcing the result is unnecessary due to too much lowballs and hardware limitations.
 
Antvasima removed


Just wanted to show what is appearing on my end.

I just find it a little suspect that the only other reply in favor of the calc, which also complained about an unfair bias towards TLoZ, was seemingly deleted by an admin without any notice explaining why.

Anyways, High 6-A is still a downgrade from 5-B, and it seems more realistic. I can roll with that if that's what we're going for.
 
@Lightbuster Keep in mind he's really close to the epicenter, though, geologically speaking. Perfectly feasible for him still to be in the impact zone while in a temple or underground, and not make it because of that.

@DarkDragonMedeus From what I saw, it really didn't seem like it. I'm puzzled, but if Ant comes in to explain, I'll drop it. He's an honest enough guy.

Anyways, are we settling on High 6-A?
 
Nemo212 said:
@Lightbuster Keep in mind he's really close to the epicenter, though, geologically speaking. Perfectly feasible for him still to be in the impact zone while in a temple or underground, and not make it because of that.
Click to expand...
Why near the epicenter? The blast kills Link even in the farthest underground spot in the game from clock town.
 
@Lightbuster Hence why I said geologically speaking. That's a lot of mass, and because of the fireball, we know that mass is moving fast. That means there's a large amount of KE, and it's going to make a big crater that will likely take up the majority, if not all of MM's map.
 
Angsize a mountain or notable landmark from the outisde the gate leading to it, then say that. We have no clue the distance between where you go off-screen from one part of the map to the other. He could be hundreds of meters to multiple kilometers from the main explosion.
 
Lightbuster is right, it kills Link even when he's deep underground in Ikana Canyon and in the Gibdo's tomb. And we also do see the moon get buried underground, so it's possible it reached all the way to the core.
 
As an unbiased Zelda fan, it's kinda asinine to say the size that Termina's moon appears in in every single shot, concept art or depiction is "out-of-scale game mechanics".

If they wanted to convey it being a normal-sized moon, they'd probably have just drawn it to scale at least once. No one even bats an eye at the Moon having a face to begin with.
 
In Hyrule, if you angsize the moon, and used the size and distance of the moon. It would be consistent. Termina does have weird gimmicks, but it's not like the creators are astronomers. And Termina was stated to be both and alternate reality and a parallel universe in other sources, so I doubt the moon is all that tiny. And the scale is never consistent like at all period; it's like way smaller in Warriors than it is in Majora's Mask.

But either way, the size of the moon seems less relevant, the relevant part is that it still strikes with enough force to devastate the Earth.
 
Termina is a parallel universe in the sense that the inhabitants there mirror Hyrule's, not that everything is identical. The Light World's moon was not shown to possess a face.

And I don't deny that much.
 
I'm aware of that, and you do make valid points about at least one drawn to scale image would be nice, but there are plenty verses that are even worse in regards to scale drawing. For example, Dragon Quest protagonists height compared to the world map would just a tiny planet. But we don't assume the setting is a tiny planet.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I'm aware of that, and you do make valid points about at least one drawn to scale image would be nice, but there are plenty verses that are even worse in regards to scale drawing. For example, Dragon Quest protagonists height compared to the world map would just a tiny planet. But we don't assume the setting is a tiny planet.
Click to expand...
Didn't a calc on NFs include an image from the astronomy room depicting the moon at normal size?
 
@Lightbuster, I might have forgotten about that, but said image would be helpful to link here.
 
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