Forest of Sus

[Arc7Kuroi]

Introduction
So, my spouse did a recalc of Konoha's size using the canon Forest of Sus size statement that I blogged, and I'm going to propose it. I'll discuss the sensibility of this calculation and address the questionable aspects.

Logistics
It is common knowledge that the Allied Shinobi Forces, numbering 80,000 strong, are almost entirely comprised of shinobi from the 5 major nations. Not so commonly known, is that 100 people are required to feed a single shinobi. The Second Fanbook informs us that the 5 villages that comprise the alliance's populations are rated as: Leaves - 5, Sand - 2, Rocks - 4, Mist - 2, and Clouds - 3. Thus we can divide Konoha's (Leaves) value by the total to get the fraction of the alliance that would be of Konoha: People = (5/16)(80,000)(100) = 2.5 million people. Adding the shinobi onto that and you have a total Konoha population of at least 2.58 million people (considering this only factors in the man-power required to foster the military might of Konoha that went to war). This calc would put the human occupied area of Konoha roughly under 6000 square km, far below the largest cities irl. Meaning this isn't some crazy wow oh brother mega city, it is well within the realm of reason. Considering Konoha doesn't have towering skyscrapers either, it is consistent for their population to be less than the populations in the link to similar land area sized modern cities.

Counter-Arguments
From what I've seen and what I've been told, the biggest contentions lies with using this rough map to debunk the actual wide shot of Konoha. I take a few issues with the "but the river splits in the map tho" argument.

First, maps are often not depicted with utmost accuracy (with the exception of topographical maps and whatnot). Clearly, by how cartoonish the Forest of Sus map is, it is not an map of extreme accuracy. So, using it to critique the actual visuals of the land itself we receive is rather unfounded in my opinion.

Second, land can change over the span of a few years, especially when near a budding and growing civilization such as Konoha. For example, rivers can be dammed via natural means (beaver or a ninja beaver) or artificial means (Konoha diverting water from the river to the village). So, nitpicking a potentially outdated map is again rather unfounded in my opinion.

End of the day we are told that the Forest of Sus is a circular forest with a river flowing through it, that isn't something that just natural pops up commonly. Most forests don't grow into naturally disk like shapes. The odds of another perfect circle forest with a river flowing through it is laughably low, it is rather obvious that Kishimoto intends that to be the Forest of Sus, and we should treat it as such.

Conclusion
Konoha is like a city in population and size.

Agree: Shadow, Mitchell
Neutral: US69 (maybe leaning agree), Clover, Tracer (leaning agree)
Disagree: Damage, KT (originally disagreed but no longer cares), M3X but there's 2 of him, LordGriff

 

[Nierre]

So, my spouse

:BigMeme:

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Edit: so my husband chews bricks and I need to fix his pixel scaling, give me a hot minute

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

I disapprove of this CRT, it can be closed.

 

[Arcker123]

So in conclusion, the verse still gets passively packed by some fodder from bleach?

 

[Abstractions]

So, my spouse did a recalc of Konoha's size using the canon Forest of Sus size statement, and I'm going to propose it.

Edit: so my husband chews bricks and I need to fix his pixel scaling, give me a hot minute

10/10 proposal, I'm sure you made your husband weep when you got on one knee.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Ok, I fixed it, we are all good to go

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Scans?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Scans?

Read the OP

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Read the OP

I concede

 

[Bobsican]

Amogus

 

[KingTempest]

I'm surprised this is even being attempted into being put into scaling, but whatever.
Saying that forest in the northeast of the village on chapter 115 is the Forest of Death because "the FOD has a river, and this has a river too, so it's the FOD" is somehow fallacious to me.

Besides the fact that the only thing making those two forest look the same is their river, there's many differences as well.
First and foremost saying that the map is wrong is hilarious to me, as Anko is trying to get the best description of the topography as possible, and her using a wrong map leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Plus, what we see in the wide view of Konoha laughs at the logic of "that forest is the forest of death".

Anko describes the Forest of Death as a place that is not just one forest, but multiple forests. The map adds on to it, showing that there isn't just one circle full of land, but in fact it is an area full of multiple different forests. This is supported by the simple fact that if it was a huge forest, then it would block out sunlight, which it clearly doesn't do, as we see as the characters can see throughout the day. More support for that last point? We see the sun shine directly to Sakura. We see it here again.

Another thing is the Tower in the middle of the forest. The Tower, via the drawing, is supposed to be drastically higher than all other trees in the vicinity, which is consistent in the other showings of the tower here, here, and here. You most definitely can make the case that there are trees higher than it, but the issue is that around the tower... there isn't.
We see in the forest in the wideshot of Konoha that there is no tower there at all. The trees, which (in the vicinity) are shorter than the tower, don't show a tower at all. In fact, the tower is shown to be maybe twice the height of the trees? So saying the trees covered it is wrong.

The Forest in the map also has its backgrounds very clear, pure land and a circular tree formation directly outside of it.
In different shots from characters, we see that there is hills, rock formations, plateaus, and more. Something that heavily contradicts the showing of the Forest in 115.

We also know another thing. The rivers aren't covered by trees. I say that because we see the river in the Konoha map covered by trees, while the ones in the FOD aren't.
Baseless assumption? No. We see a completely different environment when Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura and relaxing. River? Yes. Trees over river? No. We actually see that the river has open land to walk in. The environment issue isn't an isolated incident either. We see that Anko stumbles across some while in the forest as well.

Another thing is the geography of Konoha. Konoha has a large circular perimeter around itself meant to block out all enemies. One thing we know from the map on 115 is that the circle is very close to the direction of where the forest is, and it would overlap if there was any other landmarks around it. Breaking news.
We know that South of the forest (we can base this on the direction of the river in the FOD), there is another training ground. #43 to be exact, while the FOD is #44. If the training ground, which is south of the forest, is there, 2 things would happen.
1. We would see it in the map, as there is a lot of space on both sides of the forest where the river is moving to see if #43 is there.
2. It would intercept the walls of Konoha.

We get another showing of Konoha in a different angle, source is the first fanbook. We don't see the #43rd training ground where it should've/would've been.

Another thing.
I understand (and disagree with) the river point

Second, land can change over the span of a few years, especially when near a budding and growing civilization such as Konoha. For example, rivers can be dammed via natural means (beaver or a ninja beaver) or artificial means (Konoha diverting water from the river to the village). So, nitpicking a potentially outdated map is again rather unfounded in my opinion.

But actually... look at the map.
The river isn't even going in the same direction.
The river in Konoha goes in a straight line down. The river in the FOD clearly doesn't go in the same direction. In fact, there's 2 tails of the river under the tower. The whole thing is shaped like a Y. The river flows throughout Konoha, and we see in the same map that the river flows south into another forest, so saying "Kishi wouldn't make multiple forests with a river through it" is blatantly contradicted.

Assumptions are made to invalidate the river, like it possibly being damned or it being changed to flow towards the village. Doesn't make sense because the village has the same source of water already, and it's more assumptions that just ignore every issue with the river.

I don't agree with using the forest at the top and saying that it's the FOD at all. This would make the buildings in Konoha astronomically large, making even the Hokage's Residence hundreds of meters tall when Gamabunta, a 17m tall Toad (irdc what anyone says about his size being inconsistent. It's a given size), is around the same height as the Hokage Residence, which we can see in the large spread.

Look at the calc that's being used too? 2km Hokage Rock? When Hashirama's head on the same rock is only 20 meters with drastically less assumptions? And the whole cliff being calced to 96 meters, which is consistent with the Gamabunta Hokage Residence scaling, makes much more sense with its supports than a 2km Hokage rock.

Basically, this isn't the FOD. It's contradicted by several scans we see in the FOD, outside of the FOD, outside of Konoha, birds eye view of Konoha, and much more.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I’ll read that tomorrow :boludo:

 

[Jibz]

What in the literal flying **** is going on

 

[Damage3245]

Whilst the conclusion on the OP isn't by itself completely wrong, the actual calc being proposed in the OP doesn't look valid. I agree with KT's post.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Oh brother

 

[Deceived3596]

Following You​

 

[Urshani]

So, my spouse

You got married? For real?

 

[Jibz]

Why is this the only question you have after reading that abomination.

 

[Urshani]

Why is this the only question you have after reading that abomination.

No no no no I'm serious

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

No no no no I'm serious

Do you believe that @Wrath_Of_Itachi and I are married? I'll let that be your answer

Also, I haven't forgot about you KT, I'll get around to it.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I'm surprised this is even being attempted into being put into scaling, but whatever.
Saying that forest in the northeast of the village on chapter 115 is the Forest of Death because "the FOD has a river, and this has a river too, so it's the FOD" is somehow fallacious to me.

Surprised? You’ve known I’ve been planning on proposing for this almost a month, unless by surprised you’re merely expressing an inability to believe someone would propose this. In which case you’re opening your argument with incredulity, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that this wasn’t your intent.

Besides the fact that the only thing making those two forest look the same is their river, there's many differences as well.

Incorrect they share the exact same shape as well, extremely circular.

First and foremost saying that the map is wrong is hilarious to me, as Anko is trying to get the best description of the topography as possible, and her using a wrong map leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Plus, what we see in the wide view of Konoha laughs at the logic of "that forest is the forest of death".

You know what’s even more hilarious? I never once said the maps were wrong, my claim was that maps aren’t always drawn with utmost (1-to-1) accuracy. So please quit being dishonest and refrain from strawmanning me please. Furthermore, that map of the forest of death Anko shows is no where near topologically accurate or detailed at all, for a map to accurately detail the forest of death it would have to be far larger than the childish/cartoonish map Anko has. To even claim Anko’s map sufficiently details the intricacies of the forest of death is objectively false.

Anko describes the Forest of Death as a place that is not just one forest, but multiple forests. The map adds on to it, showing that there isn't just one circle full of land, but in fact it is an area full of multiple different forests. This is supported by the simple fact that if it was a huge forest, then it would block out sunlight, which it clearly doesn't do, as we see as the characters can see throughout the day. More support for that last point? We see the sun shine directly to Sakura. We see it here again.

Regarding multiple forests, it’s cut in half so sure you can make the claim it’s technically more than a single forest that doesn’t refute my claim. I never claimed it was a singular forest, that’s irrelevant, whether it’s 1, 2, 100 forests, the area is simply referred to as “the forest of death”. The forest of death can be an amalgamation of forests or whatever. Also, the size of the forest has absolutely 0 barring on whether or not light can shine through. What holds a barring on if light can come through is the density of the foliage covering the tops and density of trees. Which can vary upon the season among other things. All light shining through parts of the forest means is that at certain areas the cover is not thick enough to completely block out light. This is not at all a defeater to anything I claimed.

Another thing is the Tower in the middle of the forest. The Tower, via the drawing, is supposed to be drastically higher than all other trees in the vicinity, which is consistent in the other showings of the tower here, here, and here. You most definitely can make the case that there are trees higher than it, but the issue is that around the tower... there isn't.
We see in the forest in the wideshot of Konoha that there is no tower there at all. The trees, which (in the vicinity) are shorter than the tower, don't show a tower at all. In fact, the tower is shown to be maybe twice the height of the trees? So saying the trees covered it is wrong.

This is incorrect, we see the cabling connected to the tower droop down (because there’s slack in the cable) and the slide right back upwards indicating that there are trees as tall or even taller than the tower. Furthermore, we see a very very tony

The Forest in the map also has its backgrounds very clear, pure land and a circular tree formation directly outside of it.
In different shots from characters, we see that there is hills, rock formations, plateaus, and more. Something that heavily contradicts the showing of the Forest in 115.

Those rocky structures are tremendously tiny in comparison to the scope of the forest of death’s size. This size disparity would be exemplified at the insanely zoomed out image. Such comparatively small objects at such far away distances wouldn’t lend themselves to being very well seen or visible. Making this counter point rather weak in debunking my claims.

We also know another thing. The rivers aren't covered by trees. I say that because we see the river in the Konoha map covered by trees, while the ones in the FOD aren't.
Baseless assumption? No. We see a completely different environment when Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura and relaxing. River? Yes. Trees over river? No. We actually see that the river has open land to walk in. The environment issue isn't an isolated incident either. We see that Anko stumbles across some while in the forest as well.

In those scans you provided we see some trees overshadowing the river, blatantly debunking your claim off the bat. But even ignoring that, the zoomed out image is angled, and as such the angle wouldn’t allow you to see the open water parts clearly at all. Especially at such zoomed out distances (harkening back to my prior point). This angling can also help explain why you can’t make out the tower as well.

Another thing is the geography of Konoha. Konoha has a large circular perimeter around itself meant to block out all enemies. One thing we know from the map on 115 is that the circle is very close to the direction of where the forest is, and it would overlap if there was any other landmarks around it. Breaking news.

We also directly see in that image that the “circular” wall doesn’t go all 360 degrees around Konoha. So this is a koot

We know that South of the forest (we can base this on the direction of the river in the FOD), there is another training ground. #43 to be exact, while the FOD is #44. If the training ground, which is south of the forest, is there, 2 things would happen.
1. We would see it in the map, as there is a lot of space on both sides of the forest where the river is moving to see if #43 is there.

We see plenty of empty training ground space around what I propose is the forest of death. So this isnt

2. It would intercept the walls of Konoha.

If you look at the wide shot of Konoha itself you’ll see the walls don’t go completely around it all 360 degrees as I mentioned above.

We get another showing of Konoha in a different angle, source is the first fanbook. We don't see the #43rd training ground where it should've/would've been.

Again this perspective and angle works to hide any clear shot of the northeastern parts of the area. Using this shot to discredit anything is A) not possible due to the angling and B) disingenuous.

Another thing.
I understand (and disagree with) the river point

But actually... look at the map.
The river isn't even going in the same direction.
The river in Konoha goes in a straight line down. The river in the FOD clearly doesn't go in the same direction. In fact, there's 2 tails of the river under the tower. The whole thing is shaped like a Y. The river flows throughout Konoha, and we see in the same map that the river flows south into another forest, so saying "Kishi wouldn't make multiple forests with a river through it" is blatantly contradicted.

This goes back to a point I highlighted in the OP. That map is clearly not a realistic, or “irl accurate” depiction of the forest of death. It draws trees comparable in width to the 10 km radius of the forest. It is so blatantly not a 1-to-1 mapping of the forest of death, and more akin to a colored sketch if anything at all. Not to mention we have no idea how dated that map is, nitpicking a rough map that again doesn’t serve as a hyper accurate depiction of actual land scales, as a means of discrediting my claims is rather weak as a countwr

Assumptions are made to invalidate the river, like it possibly being damned or it being changed to flow towards the village. Doesn't make sense because the village has the same source of water already, and it's more assumptions that just ignore every issue with the river.

Assuming the map is not hyper accurate is far more provable and probable than taking a elementary sketch of an area not drawn at all to scale as hyper accurate. Unless you’d like to claim that there are only ten trees in the forest of death and they’re all 1+ kilometers wide. Far more issues are creating with your interpretation that the map is meant to be 1-to-1 with the landscape.

I don't agree with using the forest at the top and saying that it's the FOD at all. This would make the buildings in Konoha astronomically large, making even the Hokage's Residence hundreds of meters tall when Gamabunta, a 17m tall Toad (irdc what anyone says about his size being inconsistent. It's a given size), is around the same height as the Hokage Residence, which we can see in the large spread.

Look at the calc that's being used too? 2km Hokage Rock? When Hashirama's head on the same rock is only 20 meters with drastically less assumptions? And the whole cliff being calced to 96 meters, which is consistent with the Gamabunta Hokage Residence scaling, makes much more sense with its supports than a 2km Hokage rock.

Basically, this isn't the FOD. It's contradicted by several scans we see in the FOD, outside of the FOD, outside of Konoha, birds eye view of Konoha, and much more.

All these comparisons you bring up require them more steps to get Konoha’s size than what I proposed, which uses a single scan. Furthermore, it would be impossible to fit 2.58 million people within a drastically smaller area without sky scrapers. Frankly the narrative far more supports my interpretation with Konoha’s population.

Edit: I won’t be on this thread the rest of the night, so I’ll get back to any further deliberation likely tomorrow.

 

[KingTempest]

This one is long

Spoiler

Incorrect they share the exact same shape as well, extremely circular.

This is wrong too. This should be the main issue.
The only thing circular is the position of the gates around the FOD, which Anko specifically states.
The Forest isn't like that, the forest is not a circular construct. The forest is a bunch of forests separated by different things like rivers and bridges.

"Training ground #44 is bordered by a circular perimeter, interrupted at regular intervals by Forty-Four locked gates."
The forest is not circular, but it's surrounded by a circular perimeter. Heck, even the ground isn't the same. The ground is a torn up area surrounded by soil and such, while the forest in that map is strictly grassland when we can see it's not the case.

You know what’s even more hilarious? I never once said the maps were wrong, my claim was that maps aren’t always drawn with utmost (1-to-1) accuracy. So please quit being dishonest and refrain from strawmanning me please. Furthermore, that map of the forest of death Anko shows is no where near topologically accurate or detailed at all, for a map to accurately detail the forest of death it would have to be far larger than the childish/cartoonish map Anko has. To even claim Anko’s map sufficiently details the intricacies of the forest of death is objectively false.

You said that the map was outdated, ignored the fact that there are 2 rivers and blamed it on the map's outdated appearance, ignored that the map doesn't show anything that the other map or the landscape shows. Saying that it contradicts the river amount is saying that it's wrong.

Regarding multiple forests, it’s cut in half so sure you can make the claim it’s technically more than a single forest that doesn’t refute my claim. I never claimed it was a singular forest, that’s irrelevant, whether it’s 1, 2, 100 forests, the area is simply referred to as “the forest of death”. The forest of death can be an amalgamation of forests or whatever. Also, the size of the forest has absolutely 0 barring on whether or not light can shine through. What holds a barring on if light can come through is the density of the foliage covering the tops and density of trees. Which can vary upon the season among other things. All light shining through parts of the forest means is that at certain areas the cover is not thick enough to completely block out light. This is not at all a defeater to anything I claimed.

This is wrong.

#1 It's cut in thirds because the river splits the last portion at the bottom. On the map it looks small, but remember this whole thing is 20km in diameter, so that bottom portion could be a few kilometers out.
#2 It is not called the "Forest of Death". That is a nickname for the area. The name of the place is the Forty-Fourth Training Ground, which means the single forest portion isn't even accurate.
#3 You're bringing up density of the foliage, which is irrelevant to my claim. i said that there are open spaces in the forest, which the full showing of the map of Konoha doesn't show. It shows a spherical area with a bunch of trees over every single area.

This is incorrect, we see the cabling connected to the tower droop down (because there’s slack in the cable) and the slide right back upwards indicating that there are trees as tall or even taller than the tower. Furthermore, we see a very very tony

I already countered this point.

You most definitely can make the case that there are trees higher than it, but the issue is that around the tower... there isn't.

I specifically said that you can make the case, but in the immediate vicinity around the tower, there is nothing there taller than it.

Those rocky structures are tremendously tiny in comparison to the scope of the forest of death’s size. This size disparity would be exemplified at the insanely zoomed out image. Such comparatively small objects at such far away distances wouldn’t lend themselves to being very well seen or visible. Making this counter point rather weak in debunking my claims.

The fact that there are completely different climates on the perimeter of the area and they aren't represented on the map at all is an issue with that claim.

Your same map shows buildings. It shows the Hokage Residence which is comparable to a >20m toad. So unless you wanna say that your assumption that this is the forest of death now makes a few dozen meters tall building hundreds of meters tall and wide, it's a horrible argument. "Tremendously tiny to the scope of the forest of death" yes, but not tiny in comparison to those other buildings.

In those scans you provided we see some trees overshadowing the river, blatantly debunking your claim off the bat. But even ignoring that, the zoomed out image is angled, and as such the angle wouldn’t allow you to see the open water parts clearly at all. Especially at such zoomed out distances (harkening back to my prior point). This angling can also help explain why you can’t make out the tower as well.

"Some trees overshadowing the river" no we do not, we see full out sections of no trees at all there.

The forest being angled wouldn't contradict the largest tower there being shown on the screen.

We also directly see in that image that the “circular” wall doesn’t go all 360 degrees around Konoha. So this is a koot

Who told you this lie?

We see in Pain's invasion that the wall goes 360 degrees around Konoha.
The first fanbook says that the entire village is surrounded by a wall.
We can see that the village is surrounded by a spherical barrier and we can see the walls being aligned with where the walls are.
The portion I'm referring to about Konoha would be around the eastern side of Konoha. It is confirmed that there is an eastern wall of Konoha, where I would be speaking about. "It says east gate so it's not a wall", he says giant snakes popped up at the east gate. This is where the snakes are. A clear wall.

Your image of Konoha... isn't the full Konoha. It's just focused on the bottom portion.

We see plenty of empty training ground space around what I propose is the forest of death. So this isnt

Empty land ≠ training ground.

If you look at the wide shot of Konoha itself you’ll see the walls don’t go completely around it all 360 degrees as I mentioned above.

Check again. That shot doesn't show all of Konoha.

Again this perspective and angle works to hide any clear shot of the northeastern parts of the area. Using this shot to discredit anything is A) not possible due to the angling and B) disingenuous.

I specifically ignored the northeastern part of it because I spoke about the southeastern part where the 43rd training ground would be, which is south of the Forest of death, which is why it doesn't show the forest.

This goes back to a point I highlighted in the OP. That map is clearly not a realistic, or “irl accurate” depiction of the forest of death. It draws trees comparable in width to the 10 km radius of the forest. It is so blatantly not a 1-to-1 mapping of the forest of death, and more akin to a colored sketch if anything at all. Not to mention we have no idea how dated that map is, nitpicking a rough map that again doesn’t serve as a hyper accurate depiction of actual land scales, as a means of discrediting my claims is rather weak as a countwr

You cannot compare not drawing every single individual tree in a map to a map flat out adding large sections of no trees. The map has full missing sections of land and different rivers and you're comparing that to a circular area full of trees with no missing sections at all.

Assuming the map is not hyper accurate is far more provable and probable than taking a elementary sketch of an area not drawn at all to scale as hyper accurate. Unless you’d like to claim that there are only ten trees in the forest of death and they’re all 1+ kilometers wide. Far more issues are creating with your interpretation that the map is meant to be 1-to-1 with the landscape.

Your map literally contradicts every single piece of geography there is about the forest.

Heck, the map doesn't even show the gates

All these comparisons you bring up require them more steps to get Konoha’s size than what I proposed, which uses a single scan. Furthermore, it would be impossible to fit 2.58 million people within a drastically smaller area without sky scrapers. Frankly the narrative far more supports my interpretation with Konoha’s population.

You use a single scan and multiple assumptions that contradict every other scan we get.

I never said the area is smaller. That's headcanon. I said the area you got is wrong. It could be 2000 kilometers, it could be 2 kilometers, but what you got is wrong.

And actually, speaking of that point, let me bring up the fact that you ignored a lot about your population point, and it's collectively wrong.

You assumed that it was just the hidden villages with people in them that contributed to the amount in the Allied Shinobi Forces, which you couldn't be more wrong.
This is not the population of the five hidden village. It is the population of the FIVE MAIN COUNTRIES, which have drastically more villages than five.

Konoha having 25000 Ninja is contradicted by itself. Konohamaru, a relatively new ninja, is given the Ninja registration of 012707. This is consistent with how Ninja from far back in time have older registration numbers like Sarutobi's 000261, and further ninja have numbers based on their order of joining (the Sannin have consecutive numbers (Orochimaru has 002300, Jiraiya has 002301, and Tsunade has 002302). Much less populated villages are consistent with it, as Omoi and Karui have numbers of CL6305 and CL6306.

They canonically don't have that much ninja. They don't even have that much ninja in the history of the entire village, much less all at one time. So even your amount of ninja is wrong.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

That's gonna take me a long time to read

 

[KingTempest]

Cheat code, read from the bottom

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

When I type replies I click reply to the entire post and then break it up where I want to reply tho

 

[KingTempest]

When I type replies I click reply to the entire post and then break it up where I want to reply tho

pain

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

And actually, speaking of that point, let me bring up the fact that you ignored a lot about your population point, and it's collectively wrong.

You assumed that it was just the hidden villages with people in them that contributed to the amount in the Allied Shinobi Forces, which you couldn't be more wrong.
This is not the population of the five hidden village. It is the population of the FIVE MAIN COUNTRIES, which have drastically more villages than five.

Konoha having 25000 Ninja is contradicted by itself. Konohamaru, a relatively new ninja, is given the Ninja registration of 012707. This is consistent with how Ninja from far back in time have older registration numbers like Sarutobi's 000261, and further ninja have numbers based on their order of joining (the Sannin have consecutive numbers (Orochimaru has 002300, Jiraiya has 002301, and Tsunade has 002302). Much less populated villages are consistent with it, as Omoi and Karui have numbers of CL6305 and CL6306.

They canonically don't have that much ninja. They don't even have that much ninja in the history of the entire village, much less all at one time. So even your amount of ninja is wrong.

I just wanted to point something out.

Fair enough on the point about the "1 million people are needed to support 10,000 Shinobi" figure being for the nation as a whole, rather than the Hidden Villages.

However, the idea that Konoha has had only 12k in its entire history based on the headband registration numbers is also a bit flawed. The issue lies in the fact that we have the Allied Shinobi Forces numbering in the 80,000 range. We also know that Konoha is by far the largest and most populated of all these villages. As a result, it stands to reason that they would have a pretty significant role in supplying these numbers. So 12k Shinobi in its entire history seems laughable when we add the Alliance into the equation.
One could argue that the Samurai also contributed in their numbers, which is true; however, anyone who has read the War Arc would know that the Shinobi Alliance was very clearly comprised of shinobi predominantly. The Samurai definitely did not outnumber the Shinobi, at all.

So yeah, I just wanted to point out that while the headband thing is a decent point, it's not really without its flaws. And I feel like the figure from the Alliance is more relevant, narrative and story wise, than the registration numbers.


That's about all I wanted to say for the moment. As for my thoughts on this in general, I'm honestly a bit neutral atm. I feel like both sides are making decent points, so I'll wait a bit more before jumping back into this. College is also kicking my ass atm, which is why I haven't been super active.

 

[KingTempest]

I just wanted to point something out.

Fair enough on the point about the "1 million people are needed to support 10,000 Shinobi" figure being for the nation as a whole, rather than the Hidden Villages.

However, the idea that Konoha has had only 12k in its entire history based on the headband registration numbers is also a bit flawed. The issue lies in the fact that we have the Allied Shinobi Forces numbering in the 80,000 range. We also know that Konoha is by far the largest and most populated of all these villages. As a result, it stands to reason that they would have a pretty significant role in supplying these numbers. So 12k Shinobi in its entire history seems laughable when we add the Alliance into the equation.
One could argue that the Samurai also contributed in their numbers, which is true; however, anyone who has read the War Arc would know that the Shinobi Alliance was very clearly comprised of shinobi predominantly. The Samurai definitely did not outnumber the Shinobi, at all.

So yeah, I just wanted to point out that while the headband thing is a decent point, it's not really without its flaws. And I feel like the figure from the Alliance is more relevant, narrative and story wise, than the registration numbers.


That's about all I wanted to say for the moment. As for my thoughts on this in general, I'm honestly a bit neutral atm. I feel like both sides are making decent points, so I'll wait a bit more before jumping back into this. College is also kicking my ass atm, which is why I haven't been super active.

That isn't the main issue, even though you nailed it.

It's that there's more nations than just those 6. It's 6 countries contributing, not 6 villages, which the calc isn't considering

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

That isn't the main issue, even though you nailed it.

It's that there's more nations than just those 6. It's 6 countries contributing, not 6 villages, which the calc isn't considering

Contributing to Shinobi Society or the Alliance? I'm a bit confused. If it's the former, then yeah, I already acknowledged that.

Fair enough on the point about the "1 million people are needed to support 10,000 Shinobi" figure being for the nation as a whole, rather than the Hidden Villages.

 

[KingTempest]

Contributing to Shinobi Society or the Alliance? I'm a bit confused. If it's the former, then yeah, I already acknowledged that.

The latter, six countries contributing to the Alliance.

I know from the Kakashi novel that people from the Land of Waves contributed in the war too, and I'm assuming all the other dozens of villages contributed as well.

 

[KLOL506]

SUS

CRT REJECTED, NOT EVEN UP FOR DISCUSSION, GET THE **** OUT OF MY HEAD

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

The latter, six countries contributing to the Alliance.

I know from the Kakashi novel that people from the Land of Waves contributed in the war too, and I'm assuming all the other dozens of villages contributed as well.

This scan is for a different thing entirely. It's the nations buying the services of doctors to tend to what must've been hundreds, or possibly even thousands, of injured Shinobi.

But the Shinobi Alliance was comprised entirely of Shinobi (and Samurai). They didn't even bring their Genin Class Shinobi into the War, so they definitely won't be bringing random civilians or fodder hired muscle into it.
Now, I know that there are Shinobi that aren't belonging to the 5 main villages. Do you have scans for those being recruited for the War? Or, rather, stated to have been a part of the main fighting forces?

 

[Jibz]

SUS

GET OUT OF MY HEAD	GET OUT OF MY HEAD	GET OUT OF MY HEAD	GET OUT OF MY HEAD	GET OUT OF MY HEAD	GET OUT OF MY HEAD
GET OUT OF MY HEAD	GET OUT OF MY HEAD	GET OUT OF MY HEAD	GET OUT OF MY HEAD	GET OUT OF MY HEAD	GET OUT OF MY HEAD

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

CRT REJECTED, NOT EVEN UP FOR DISCUSSION, GET THE **** OUT OF MY HEAD

I will continue living there rent free

 

[Arcker123]

I will continue living there rent free

 

[BleachHollow]

To be Honest I believe the OP needs to check this before posting the revision

​

 

[KingTempest]

This scan is for a different thing entirely. It's the nations buying the services of doctors to tend to what must've been hundreds, or possibly even thousands, of injured Shinobi.

This says during the war, so these would've been people in the Logistical Support and Medical Division of the war.

But the Shinobi Alliance was comprised entirely of Shinobi (and Samurai). They didn't even bring their Genin Class Shinobi into the War, so they definitely won't be bringing random civilians or fodder hired muscle into it.

Different. They don't bring Genin to war in general to stop the "child soldier" aspect of war.

Now, I know that there are Shinobi that aren't belonging to the 5 main villages. Do you have scans for those being recruited for the War? Or, rather, stated to have been a part of the main fighting forces?

It wasn't just the main forces that were 80,000, it was the forces and the healers as well.

But as it stands I don't have explicit scans of it, they stopped worrying about different villages during the war, but the only big evidence is them going to the daimyo for acceptance of war, and the daimyo have dominion over the country, not the villages.
But a point I have to get out my head which I forgot to speak about

However, the idea that Konoha has had only 12k in its entire history based on the headband registration numbers is also a bit flawed. The issue lies in the fact that we have the Allied Shinobi Forces numbering in the 80,000 range. We also know that Konoha is by far the largest and most populated of all these villages. As a result, it stands to reason that they would have a pretty significant role in supplying these numbers. So 12k Shinobi in its entire history seems laughable when we add the Alliance into the equation.
One could argue that the Samurai also contributed in their numbers, which is true; however, anyone who has read the War Arc would know that the Shinobi Alliance was very clearly comprised of shinobi predominantly. The Samurai definitely did not outnumber the Shinobi, at all.

This (my view) is consistent with the Chunin exams.
The Chunin Exams is held by-annually, and every year they probably pull out less than a hundred chunin.
The bi-annually aspect started since the 3rd war, which was over 10 years prior to the war, and they accepted at most a hundred chunin a year (maybe 50 per exam), highball as we see that there was 87 Konoha applicants and they deliberately cut them down, and not even 20 made the preliminaries.
From Kakashi’s era to Naruto’s era, less than 300 ninja were registered, much less became chunin to be eligible for the war.
From Naruto’s era to Konohamaru’s era, 100 ninja exact were registered.

They canonically don’t even register than many Shinobi yearly, so even that contradicts the amount of Shinobi they have unless they have random thousands of ninja becoming eligible for war or they just got a bunch becoming ninja behind the scenes.

 

[BleachHollow]

Also about the thread, the only thing which I'm not sure is, what if the saying that it takes 100 people to support a shinobi with resources was commonly said during the old times when the economy was not so good and the times were harder?

 

[KingTempest]

Also about the thread, the only thing which I'm not sure is, what if the saying that it takes 100 people to support a shinobi with resources was commonly said during the old times when the economy was not so good and the times were harder?

That definitely says it during the old times